1 16:05:45 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:05:45 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jun 21 16:05:45 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:05:45 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:06:01 <API> #topic Joseph: Collective response to "What I am extremely missing in Gnome 3"
   5 16:06:02 <API> clown, ?
   6 16:06:13 <clown> by way of introduction,
   7 16:06:34 <clown> there was an email sent to gnome-a11y that a coworker noticed and asked me to respond to.
   8 16:06:52 <clown> I started a response vis-a-vis functionality of the magnifier, but
   9 16:07:15 <clown> quickly realized I didn't know about half the stuff he was "complaining" about.
  10 16:07:31 <clown> I thought a collective response would be appropriate.
  11 16:07:44 <clown> the email in question is here: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-June/msg00018.html
  12 16:07:52 <clown> (yield floor)
  13 16:08:05 <API> yeah I saw that, juanjo already made an answer
  14 16:08:25 <API> as some of that stuff can be configured by the tweak tool
  15 16:08:41 <API> I don't see any problem if you just respond with the stuff that you know how to respond
  16 16:09:01 <clown> so, just add to the thread?  Sure, that's sounds like a plan.
  17 16:09:22 <jjmarin> he replied me privately to tell me that gnome-tweak-tool is not enough
  18 16:09:40 <joanie> do we know why the options were taken out of the control-center?
  19 16:09:48 <API> jjmarin, well, what you said, is that some stuff is fixed by tweak tool
  20 16:09:54 <joanie> i.e. is it not good design to have these choices
  21 16:09:57 <jjmarin> a design decision
  22 16:10:00 <API> like font size
  23 16:10:01 <joanie> or did these options fall off
  24 16:10:21 <joanie> could we ask for them back?
  25 16:10:23 <joanie> :)
  26 16:10:37 <joanie> to be honest, what's going through my mind is this:
  27 16:10:54 <jjmarin> Linus torvals also complain about the font size option
  28 16:10:54 <joanie> If the design team has determined that mouse size should not be configurable
  29 16:11:10 <joanie> the design team should be the one to write a response to this guy
  30 16:11:19 <joanie> half joking/half not
  31 16:11:31 * clown wonders if the desgin team watches the gnome-a11y list...
  32 16:11:37 * clown 'design'
  33 16:11:43 <joanie> the design team makes the decisions; we get stuck making the excuses and explanations and apologies
  34 16:12:21 <joanie> I'm done with my rant
  35 16:12:45 <jjmarin> Will API able to attend to the UX hackfest ?
  36 16:12:49 <mgorse> Do they have a mailing list? Should things like this be forwarded to them?
  37 16:13:01 <API> well, now I think that a collaborative answer can be good
  38 16:13:03 <API> mgorse, no
  39 16:13:28 <API> on the last flame in relation with the communication
  40 16:13:38 <API> with the design team, some people complained about that
  41 16:13:55 <API> anyway, about that answer
  42 16:14:07 <API> I guess that we could do something like
  43 16:14:21 <API> list all the stuff that Detlef is missing
  44 16:14:33 <API> annotate what are in fact available and which not
  45 16:14:45 <API> and then see if those options were in fact available on gnome2
  46 16:14:54 <API> so, a wiki for that list of stuff?
  47 16:14:59 <API> any other thool?
  48 16:14:59 <API> tool
  49 16:15:16 <clown> wiki sounds good.
  50 16:15:17 <jjmarin> I think I have some screenshots og these GNOME 2 options
  51 16:15:18 * API looking just in case thool is a "bad word" in english
  52 16:15:27 * joanie laughs
  53 16:15:32 * clown never heard of 'thool'
  54 16:16:18 <API> jjmarin, what means "og"?
  55 16:16:19 <API> ah
  56 16:16:20 <API> of
  57 16:16:21 <API> sorry
  58 16:16:22 <clown> it strikes me that such a wiki might turn into a list of nice-to-have in terms of a11y features.
  59 16:16:42 * jjmarin og also means of in norwegian ;-)
  60 16:16:43 <API> clown, something that I think that we already have
  61 16:16:49 <clown> Indeed.
  62 16:16:56 <joanie> which I need to update
  63 16:17:00 <API> so we would need to not forget that page again
  64 16:17:01 <joanie> but feel free to add on to it
  65 16:17:13 <API> well, I think that first we could work on the answer
  66 16:17:14 <joanie> I have an action item. I just didn't do it yet
  67 16:17:23 <API> and then add the missing stuff on the nice-to-have list
  68 16:17:57 <clown> I'm willing to start by making the list of items that Detlef mentions
  69 16:18:08 <API> clown, ok
  70 16:18:10 <clown> and adding points where the magnifier comes into play.
  71 16:18:26 <API> so could we summarize this point on pretty #info and a final #action?
  72 16:18:37 <clown> okay, I'll give it a try...
  73 16:19:29 <clown> #info There is a list of missing features in GNOME 3 that were in GNOME 2
  74 16:19:45 <clown> #info This list was given in an email on the gnome-a11y list:
  75 16:19:54 <clown> #info https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-June/msg00018.html
  76 16:20:15 <clown> #action Joseph will take that email and summarize the list of items on a wiki page.
  77 16:20:21 <clown> anyone have the url to that page handy?
  78 16:20:32 <joanie> it's going to move
  79 16:20:42 <joanie> so you can just put it somewhere logical
  80 16:20:42 * jjmarin is forwarding Detlef reply to you
  81 16:20:54 <clown> still, where is it now?  We can state that this is temporary?
  82 16:21:02 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointFour/NiceToHaves
  83 16:21:18 <joanie> clown: ya know what?
  84 16:21:27 <joanie> let's make the 3.6
  85 16:21:33 <joanie> I'll do that during this meeting
  86 16:21:38 <clown> #info the page to create this list is here, but this is temporary:  https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointFour/NiceToHaves (the page will move).
  87 16:21:39 <joanie> and worry about moving the rest over later
  88 16:21:55 <clown> okay, give yourself an actio.
  89 16:22:08 * clown thanks jjmarin
  90 16:22:21 <joanie> #action Joanie will create the new stump pages during this meeting
  91 16:22:47 <jjmarin> Zan Dobersek is adding support to Gamepad, I wonder if you can use his work for a11y features
  92 16:22:56 <clown> #action after making the list, Joseph will add responses in terms of gs-mag, where they are appropriate.
  93 16:23:08 <clown> (done)
  94 16:23:51 <jjmarin> I can provide screenshoots of the GNOME 2 options if someone thinks is appropiated
  95 16:24:07 <clown> can't hurt...
  96 16:24:20 <clown> that is, I think that's a good idea, jjmarin
  97 16:24:47 <clown> it shows that those options were there, confirming Detlef's statement.
  98 16:25:07 <clown> (if there were there....)
  99 16:25:19 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will send to clown, joanie, API and mgorse screenshots of gnome 2 options that Detlef mentions
 100 16:25:38 <clown> jjmarin, why not put them directly on the wiki?
 101 16:25:48 <jjmarin> ok
 102 16:26:11 <clown> once I've made the list.  then you can link the description fo the feature to an g2 screenshot.
 103 16:26:14 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will add to the wiki the gnome 2 options that Detlef mentions
 104 16:26:47 <API> well, anything else or moving on?
 105 16:27:11 <clown> let's move — half the meeting is gone, and I didn't mean to spend so much time on this.
 106 16:27:22 <jjmarin> ok
 107 16:27:37 <API> #topic GNOME 3.6
 108 16:27:45 <API> joanie, I think that you added this point
 109 16:27:48 <API> anything in mind?
 110 16:27:52 <joanie> A bunch
 111 16:27:58 <joanie> but I don't want to deep dive
 112 16:28:01 <joanie> so....
 113 16:28:23 <joanie> #info Screen Reader has been added as an item in the GNOME Shell menu.
 114 16:28:46 <joanie> #info Question: Can we get a keyboard shortcut for users to enable screen reader support in GDM?
 115 16:29:06 <joanie> #info Much work as been done on enabling accessibility by default. Yay!
 116 16:29:20 <joanie> #info Question: What is the current status?
 117 16:29:23 <clown> do you want a "standard" global keystroke, or is it possible to add using the keyboard control panel (user choice)?
 118 16:29:44 <joanie> #info Question: What's going to happen with respect to Gecko since Gecko is migrating from Gtk+ 2 to Gtk+ 3?
 119 16:29:57 <API> clown, well, today I found the way to do that for any user, the question is if gdm is a "normal user" or not
 120 16:30:17 <joanie> #info Bastien has suggested that there is still much work we need to do on at-spi2-atk.
 121 16:30:26 <joanie> #info Question: Should we be having a conversation with him?
 122 16:30:56 <joanie> #info On a positive note, Orca is Python 3 now. Accerciser will be soon as I've done all the patches.
 123 16:31:14 <joanie> #info Question: How does this impact JHBuild?
 124 16:31:31 <joanie> #info Question: Should we have a build-time flag for pyatspi2?
 125 16:31:43 <joanie> if you don't shut me up I could keep going ;)
 126 16:31:49 <joanie> but you get the flavor
 127 16:31:51 <joanie> one more info
 128 16:32:16 * clown notest that joanie is sleepy...
 129 16:32:22 * clown "notes"
 130 16:32:22 <joanie> #info Joanie is pleased at the progress being made thusfar in the cycle but worries that if we don't address the above concerns, we may get bitten in the butt.
 131 16:32:25 <joanie> done
 132 16:32:27 <joanie> clown: why do you say that?
 133 16:32:39 <clown> joanie:  just being ironic.
 134 16:33:01 <joanie> anyway, floor is y'alls
 135 16:33:10 <joanie> if you have answers, please info them
 136 16:33:45 <API> #info about the shortcut, one can set just with gsettings: gsettings set 'org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.media-keys' screenreader ''
 137 16:33:55 <clown> I have a question:  if Bastien is going to make changes to ati-spi2-atk, will he first file a bugzilla for the change?
 138 16:34:00 <API> #info we need to check if that works for gdm (is gdm a normal user?)
 139 16:34:05 <clown> if so, the discussion could happen at that point.
 140 16:34:11 <API> clown, he is already doing that
 141 16:34:17 <clown> cool, API
 142 16:34:18 <API> I mean that he provided several patches
 143 16:34:24 <API> on at-spi2-atk, gtk
 144 16:34:30 <joanie> but he's also said that addition work was needed
 145 16:34:45 <API> and afaik, he always wait for maintainers blessing
 146 16:34:49 <clown> but, did he supply those patches for specific bugzilla numbers?
 147 16:34:53 <joanie> it's not clear to me if that means "needed and I'm volunteering"
 148 16:34:56 <API> clown, yes
 149 16:35:02 <API> he also created those patches
 150 16:35:04 <joanie> or "needed and you should do it"
 151 16:35:06 * API looking for a example
 152 16:35:07 <clown> that's seems to follow the protocol...
 153 16:35:20 <clown> strike seems.  that *does* follow the protocol.
 154 16:35:28 <API> clown, ie: bug 678095
 155 16:35:28 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678095 normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, RESOLVED FIXED, Always enable a11y
 156 16:35:41 <clown> so, I guess joanie's question is do we need a larger overall discussion?
 157 16:35:58 <joanie> he has indicated that there is much more work to be done
 158 16:36:08 <joanie> he is the one who pointed out the Gecko porting to Gtk3
 159 16:36:10 * clown smiles as that particular bug just bit me in terms of the focus tracker...
 160 16:36:18 <joanie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699
 161 16:36:18 <tota11y> 04Bug 627699: normal, --, ---, stransky, ASSIGNED , Port GTK2 to GTK3
 162 16:36:27 <joanie> So what I am wondering is:
 163 16:36:36 <joanie> 1. What specifically needs to be done
 164 16:36:42 <clown> we should involde davidb on the gecko issue, no?
 165 16:36:52 <joanie> 2. Is he planning on doing it?
 166 16:36:54 <clown> sigh, 'involve'
 167 16:36:57 <joanie> clown: yes
 168 16:37:11 <joanie> my point, which I fear I'm not explaining well is this:
 169 16:37:13 <API> 1. we were talking about stuff like
 170 16:37:20 <joanie> 3.5.3 is going out the door Monday
 171 16:37:20 <API> return an object on that bridge init call
 172 16:37:31 <API> in order to have more control
 173 16:37:34 <API> like: set the root
 174 16:37:35 <joanie> 3.5.90 will be here before you know it
 175 16:37:36 <API> etc
 176 16:38:04 <API> but as far as I saw, his comments were more about "still stuff to do" but not a real plan
 177 16:38:14 * joanie nods
 178 16:38:19 <API> about 2, don't know, but I don't think so
 179 16:38:20 * joanie likes real plans
 180 16:38:59 <API> so, we could ask him if you want
 181 16:39:07 <API> action item for me for sending him a mail or something?
 182 16:39:17 <joanie> API: yes please
 183 16:39:21 <clown> +1
 184 16:39:36 <jjmarin> +1
 185 16:39:43 <joanie> :)
 186 16:39:44 <API> #action API send a mail to bastien to know 1. if he has specific features for the bride 2. if he plans to work on that
 187 16:40:03 <joanie> bride?
 188 16:40:05 * API looking other questions
 189 16:40:05 * clown the bride of frankenstein?
 190 16:40:10 <API> s/bride/bridge
 191 16:40:17 <joanie> heh. Thanks
 192 16:40:27 <joanie> I should have known but that didn't come to me
 193 16:40:36 <API> joanie, <joanie> #info Question: Should we have a build-time flag for pyatspi2?
 194 16:40:40 <API> could you elaborate that?
 195 16:41:06 <joanie> yeah, mgorse has managed to create a pyatspi2 which can live in python 2 and python 3
 196 16:41:12 <joanie> this is great for end users
 197 16:41:22 <joanie> package maintainers
 198 16:41:23 <joanie> etc.
 199 16:41:24 * clown lib to rule them all...
 200 16:41:28 <joanie> :)
 201 16:41:47 <joanie> but since GNOME is moving towards python 3
 202 16:42:10 <joanie> and since we are getting the two main pyatspi2 users/modules in python 3 (Orca, done; Accerciser, patches pending)
 203 16:42:18 <joanie> I'd like it to default to python 3
 204 16:42:26 <joanie> for simplicity, jhbuild, etc.
 205 16:43:19 <API> what that default mean? that will only compile support for python3?
 206 16:43:26 <mgorse> Is orca defaulting to Python 3 right now?
 207 16:43:34 <joanie> mgorse: not defaulting
 208 16:43:38 <joanie> Orca is ONLY python 3
 209 16:43:47 <joanie> Accerciser will soon be ONLY python 3
 210 16:44:02 <joanie> pyatspi on nearly any distro machine builds python 2.
 211 16:44:11 <joanie> yes, you can specify the python
 212 16:44:19 <joanie> but what about jhbuild?
 213 16:44:23 <joanie> jhbuild orca fails at the moment
 214 16:44:41 <clown> how does it fail (note to self: try to do this)?
 215 16:44:55 <joanie> it cannot find various dependencies
 216 16:45:03 <joanie> because they were all built with python 2
 217 16:45:09 <joanie> that's pyatspi and cairo at least
 218 16:45:22 <clown> i see.
 219 16:45:30 <joanie> API isn't this going to annoy an RT member for 3.5.3? ;)
 220 16:46:20 <API> probably
 221 16:46:26 * API looking specific dates
 222 16:46:30 <joanie> monday
 223 16:46:43 <mgorse> I need to figure out what needs doing. If I change AM_PATH_PYTHON from 2.6 to 3.something, then my guess is that that won't automatically make jhbuild do the right thing
 224 16:47:34 <joanie> so we need to sort this out
 225 16:47:56 <joanie> jjardon is mr. jhbuild and "how's that gnome goal coming?" :)
 226 16:48:02 <joanie> so maybe we should just ping him
 227 16:48:34 <mgorse> ok
 228 16:49:11 <joanie> and we should ping david
 229 16:49:21 <API> well, I think that it is time to close this item
 230 16:49:23 <mgorse> #action mgorse will ping jjardon / ask how best to get pyatspi to build against Python 3 in jhbuild
 231 16:49:26 <API> so, info actions?
 232 16:49:39 <API> mgorse is faster than me
 233 16:49:48 <joanie> #action Joanie will ping David Bolter regarding a11y always on and the gecko migration to gtk3
 234 16:50:41 <mgorse> though I guess it's more than jhbuild, since configure should just work, but not sure if there's a convention
 235 16:50:58 <joanie> yeah, I dunno
 236 16:51:12 <joanie> configure solves it for orca it seems
 237 16:51:25 <API> well, lets move then
 238 16:51:28 <API> #topic GUADEC BoF proposed
 239 16:51:29 <mgorse> yeah, one option is to just require Python 3
 240 16:51:30 <API> joanie, ?
 241 16:51:39 <joanie> mgorse: let's discuss more later
 242 16:51:51 <mgorse> Okay. Move along, get along, move along, get along, go, move, shift.l
 243 16:52:14 <joanie> #info Joanie worked on a draft with Piñeiro and Juanjo and submitted it as a BoF.
 244 16:52:21 <joanie> #info Joanie suspects it will be accepted.
 245 16:52:38 <joanie> #info Anyone coming to GUADEC should therefore plan on participating.
 246 16:52:54 <joanie> #info Joanie requested the 30th as that will make it possible for Andre Klapper to join is.
 247 16:52:57 <joanie> (done)
 248 16:53:18 <joanie> s/is/us/
 249 16:53:39 <API> this seems a short item
 250 16:53:43 <API> questions, doubts?
 251 16:53:47 <joanie> you're in a hurry
 252 16:53:48 <joanie> ;)
 253 16:54:43 <API> always, if not any item became misc time :P
 254 16:55:07 <jjmarin> shot marketing
 255 16:55:12 <jjmarin> short
 256 16:55:13 <API> #topic marketing
 257 16:55:19 <jjmarin> #info the Fa11y oG counter is up and running again. This week is US$ 17,152 , so that means US$ 800 more than two weeks ago.
 258 16:56:17 <jjmarin> #info I don't have any response about the OFL FLOSS booth, I think we don't have other associations interested yet
 259 16:56:30 <jjmarin> done
 260 16:56:56 <jjmarin> question, suggestion or move to misc ?
 261 16:57:17 <jjmarin> #info jhernandez posted about the a11y FoG
 262 16:57:28 <jjmarin> really done now :-)
 263 16:57:33 <joanie> :)
 264 16:58:14 <API> ok, so as there are just 3 minutes remaining
 265 16:58:21 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 266 16:58:38 <API> someone wants to add something not included on th agenda?
 267 16:59:11 <jjmarin> Zan Dobersek is adding support to Gamepad, I wonder if you can use his work for a11y features
 268 16:59:30 <jjmarin> I think KaL is the mentor
 269 17:00:04 <API> well it is another device
 270 17:00:29 <API> but, do you wonder if they could be used for a11y features because you saw something similar or just wondering?
 271 17:00:57 <clown> if it's like a joystick, it could be useful in an onscreen keyboard scenario.
 272 17:01:02 <jjmarin> joystick and gamepad can be used as an alternative to mouse
 273 17:02:03 <API> well, in that case I don't think that we need a specific app using it
 274 17:02:19 <API> as the feature is already there (onscreen keyboard)
 275 17:02:32 <API> just a additional device to control it
 276 17:03:06 <jjmarin> I can ask KaL
 277 17:03:07 <clown> well, maybe.  The onscreen keyboards I'm familiar with had a setting for how to access it (dwell, scanning, joystick)...
 278 17:03:24 <clown> but, maybe caribou works differently.  dunno.
 279 17:03:42 <API> well, in general caribou still requires several features
 280 17:03:54 <API> don't know if eitan was lucky in his search for a co-maintainer
 281 17:04:54 <API> anyway, as we are already over time
 282 17:04:59 <clown> one more thing.
 283 17:05:01 <clown> API: http://thool.wikidot.com/
 284 17:05:02 <clown> done.
 285 17:05:16 * API looking
 286 17:05:23 <API> lol
 287 17:05:26 <jjmarin> :-)
 288 17:05:30 <API> closing the meeting
 289 17:05:31 * heidi laughing!
 290 17:05:34 <API> #endmeeting