16:05:45 <API> #startmeeting
16:05:45 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jun 21 16:05:45 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:05:45 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:01 <API> #topic Joseph: Collective response to "What I am extremely missing in Gnome 3"
16:06:02 <API> clown, ?
16:06:13 <clown> by way of introduction,
16:06:34 <clown> there was an email sent to gnome-a11y that a coworker noticed and asked me to respond to.
16:06:52 <clown> I started a response vis-a-vis functionality of the magnifier, but
16:07:15 <clown> quickly realized I didn't know about half the stuff he was "complaining" about.
16:07:31 <clown> I thought a collective response would be appropriate.
16:07:44 <clown> the email in question is here: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-June/msg00018.html
16:07:52 <clown> (yield floor)
16:08:05 <API> yeah I saw that, juanjo already made an answer
16:08:25 <API> as some of that stuff can be configured by the tweak tool
16:08:41 <API> I don't see any problem if you just respond with the stuff that you know how to respond
16:09:01 <clown> so, just add to the thread?  Sure, that's sounds like a plan.
16:09:22 <jjmarin> he replied me privately to tell me that gnome-tweak-tool is not enough
16:09:40 <joanie> do we know why the options were taken out of the control-center?
16:09:48 <API> jjmarin, well, what you said, is that some stuff is fixed by tweak tool
16:09:54 <joanie> i.e. is it not good design to have these choices
16:09:57 <jjmarin> a design decision
16:10:00 <API> like font size
16:10:01 <joanie> or did these options fall off
16:10:21 <joanie> could we ask for them back?
16:10:23 <joanie> :)
16:10:37 <joanie> to be honest, what's going through my mind is this:
16:10:54 <jjmarin> Linus torvals also complain about the font size option
16:10:54 <joanie> If the design team has determined that mouse size should not be configurable
16:11:10 <joanie> the design team should be the one to write a response to this guy
16:11:19 <joanie> half joking/half not
16:11:31 * clown wonders if the desgin team watches the gnome-a11y list...
16:11:37 * clown 'design'
16:11:43 <joanie> the design team makes the decisions; we get stuck making the excuses and explanations and apologies
16:12:21 <joanie> I'm done with my rant
16:12:45 <jjmarin> Will API able to attend to the UX hackfest ?
16:12:49 <mgorse> Do they have a mailing list? Should things like this be forwarded to them?
16:13:01 <API> well, now I think that a collaborative answer can be good
16:13:03 <API> mgorse, no
16:13:28 <API> on the last flame in relation with the communication
16:13:38 <API> with the design team, some people complained about that
16:13:55 <API> anyway, about that answer
16:14:07 <API> I guess that we could do something like
16:14:21 <API> list all the stuff that Detlef is missing
16:14:33 <API> annotate what are in fact available and which not
16:14:45 <API> and then see if those options were in fact available on gnome2
16:14:54 <API> so, a wiki for that list of stuff?
16:14:59 <API> any other thool?
16:14:59 <API> tool
16:15:16 <clown> wiki sounds good.
16:15:17 <jjmarin> I think I have some screenshots og these GNOME 2 options
16:15:18 * API looking just in case thool is a "bad word" in english
16:15:27 * joanie laughs
16:15:32 * clown never heard of 'thool'
16:16:18 <API> jjmarin, what means "og"?
16:16:19 <API> ah
16:16:20 <API> of
16:16:21 <API> sorry
16:16:22 <clown> it strikes me that such a wiki might turn into a list of nice-to-have in terms of a11y features.
16:16:42 * jjmarin og also means of in norwegian ;-)
16:16:43 <API> clown, something that I think that we already have
16:16:49 <clown> Indeed.
16:16:56 <joanie> which I need to update
16:17:00 <API> so we would need to not forget that page again
16:17:01 <joanie> but feel free to add on to it
16:17:13 <API> well, I think that first we could work on the answer
16:17:14 <joanie> I have an action item. I just didn't do it yet
16:17:23 <API> and then add the missing stuff on the nice-to-have list
16:17:57 <clown> I'm willing to start by making the list of items that Detlef mentions
16:18:08 <API> clown, ok
16:18:10 <clown> and adding points where the magnifier comes into play.
16:18:26 <API> so could we summarize this point on pretty #info and a final #action?
16:18:37 <clown> okay, I'll give it a try...
16:19:29 <clown> #info There is a list of missing features in GNOME 3 that were in GNOME 2
16:19:45 <clown> #info This list was given in an email on the gnome-a11y list:
16:19:54 <clown> #info https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-June/msg00018.html
16:20:15 <clown> #action Joseph will take that email and summarize the list of items on a wiki page.
16:20:21 <clown> anyone have the url to that page handy?
16:20:32 <joanie> it's going to move
16:20:42 <joanie> so you can just put it somewhere logical
16:20:42 * jjmarin is forwarding Detlef reply to you
16:20:54 <clown> still, where is it now?  We can state that this is temporary?
16:21:02 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointFour/NiceToHaves
16:21:18 <joanie> clown: ya know what?
16:21:27 <joanie> let's make the 3.6
16:21:33 <joanie> I'll do that during this meeting
16:21:38 <clown> #info the page to create this list is here, but this is temporary:  https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointFour/NiceToHaves (the page will move).
16:21:39 <joanie> and worry about moving the rest over later
16:21:55 <clown> okay, give yourself an actio.
16:22:08 * clown thanks jjmarin
16:22:21 <joanie> #action Joanie will create the new stump pages during this meeting
16:22:47 <jjmarin> Zan Dobersek is adding support to Gamepad, I wonder if you can use his work for a11y features
16:22:56 <clown> #action after making the list, Joseph will add responses in terms of gs-mag, where they are appropriate.
16:23:08 <clown> (done)
16:23:51 <jjmarin> I can provide screenshoots of the GNOME 2 options if someone thinks is appropiated
16:24:07 <clown> can't hurt...
16:24:20 <clown> that is, I think that's a good idea, jjmarin
16:24:47 <clown> it shows that those options were there, confirming Detlef's statement.
16:25:07 <clown> (if there were there....)
16:25:19 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will send to clown, joanie, API and mgorse screenshots of gnome 2 options that Detlef mentions
16:25:38 <clown> jjmarin, why not put them directly on the wiki?
16:25:48 <jjmarin> ok
16:26:11 <clown> once I've made the list.  then you can link the description fo the feature to an g2 screenshot.
16:26:14 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will add to the wiki the gnome 2 options that Detlef mentions
16:26:47 <API> well, anything else or moving on?
16:27:11 <clown> let's move — half the meeting is gone, and I didn't mean to spend so much time on this.
16:27:22 <jjmarin> ok
16:27:37 <API> #topic GNOME 3.6
16:27:45 <API> joanie, I think that you added this point
16:27:48 <API> anything in mind?
16:27:52 <joanie> A bunch
16:27:58 <joanie> but I don't want to deep dive
16:28:01 <joanie> so....
16:28:23 <joanie> #info Screen Reader has been added as an item in the GNOME Shell menu.
16:28:46 <joanie> #info Question: Can we get a keyboard shortcut for users to enable screen reader support in GDM?
16:29:06 <joanie> #info Much work as been done on enabling accessibility by default. Yay!
16:29:20 <joanie> #info Question: What is the current status?
16:29:23 <clown> do you want a "standard" global keystroke, or is it possible to add using the keyboard control panel (user choice)?
16:29:44 <joanie> #info Question: What's going to happen with respect to Gecko since Gecko is migrating from Gtk+ 2 to Gtk+ 3?
16:29:57 <API> clown, well, today I found the way to do that for any user, the question is if gdm is a "normal user" or not
16:30:17 <joanie> #info Bastien has suggested that there is still much work we need to do on at-spi2-atk.
16:30:26 <joanie> #info Question: Should we be having a conversation with him?
16:30:56 <joanie> #info On a positive note, Orca is Python 3 now. Accerciser will be soon as I've done all the patches.
16:31:14 <joanie> #info Question: How does this impact JHBuild?
16:31:31 <joanie> #info Question: Should we have a build-time flag for pyatspi2?
16:31:43 <joanie> if you don't shut me up I could keep going ;)
16:31:49 <joanie> but you get the flavor
16:31:51 <joanie> one more info
16:32:16 * clown notest that joanie is sleepy...
16:32:22 * clown "notes"
16:32:22 <joanie> #info Joanie is pleased at the progress being made thusfar in the cycle but worries that if we don't address the above concerns, we may get bitten in the butt.
16:32:25 <joanie> done
16:32:27 <joanie> clown: why do you say that?
16:32:39 <clown> joanie:  just being ironic.
16:33:01 <joanie> anyway, floor is y'alls
16:33:10 <joanie> if you have answers, please info them
16:33:45 <API> #info about the shortcut, one can set just with gsettings: gsettings set 'org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.media-keys' screenreader ''
16:33:55 <clown> I have a question:  if Bastien is going to make changes to ati-spi2-atk, will he first file a bugzilla for the change?
16:34:00 <API> #info we need to check if that works for gdm (is gdm a normal user?)
16:34:05 <clown> if so, the discussion could happen at that point.
16:34:11 <API> clown, he is already doing that
16:34:17 <clown> cool, API
16:34:18 <API> I mean that he provided several patches
16:34:24 <API> on at-spi2-atk, gtk
16:34:30 <joanie> but he's also said that addition work was needed
16:34:45 <API> and afaik, he always wait for maintainers blessing
16:34:49 <clown> but, did he supply those patches for specific bugzilla numbers?
16:34:53 <joanie> it's not clear to me if that means "needed and I'm volunteering"
16:34:56 <API> clown, yes
16:35:02 <API> he also created those patches
16:35:04 <joanie> or "needed and you should do it"
16:35:06 * API looking for a example
16:35:07 <clown> that's seems to follow the protocol...
16:35:20 <clown> strike seems.  that *does* follow the protocol.
16:35:28 <API> clown, ie: bug 678095
16:35:28 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=678095 normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, RESOLVED FIXED, Always enable a11y
16:35:41 <clown> so, I guess joanie's question is do we need a larger overall discussion?
16:35:58 <joanie> he has indicated that there is much more work to be done
16:36:08 <joanie> he is the one who pointed out the Gecko porting to Gtk3
16:36:10 * clown smiles as that particular bug just bit me in terms of the focus tracker...
16:36:18 <joanie> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699
16:36:18 <tota11y> 04Bug 627699: normal, --, ---, stransky, ASSIGNED , Port GTK2 to GTK3
16:36:27 <joanie> So what I am wondering is:
16:36:36 <joanie> 1. What specifically needs to be done
16:36:42 <clown> we should involde davidb on the gecko issue, no?
16:36:52 <joanie> 2. Is he planning on doing it?
16:36:54 <clown> sigh, 'involve'
16:36:57 <joanie> clown: yes
16:37:11 <joanie> my point, which I fear I'm not explaining well is this:
16:37:13 <API> 1. we were talking about stuff like
16:37:20 <joanie> 3.5.3 is going out the door Monday
16:37:20 <API> return an object on that bridge init call
16:37:31 <API> in order to have more control
16:37:34 <API> like: set the root
16:37:35 <joanie> 3.5.90 will be here before you know it
16:37:36 <API> etc
16:38:04 <API> but as far as I saw, his comments were more about "still stuff to do" but not a real plan
16:38:14 * joanie nods
16:38:19 <API> about 2, don't know, but I don't think so
16:38:20 * joanie likes real plans
16:38:59 <API> so, we could ask him if you want
16:39:07 <API> action item for me for sending him a mail or something?
16:39:17 <joanie> API: yes please
16:39:21 <clown> +1
16:39:36 <jjmarin> +1
16:39:43 <joanie> :)
16:39:44 <API> #action API send a mail to bastien to know 1. if he has specific features for the bride 2. if he plans to work on that
16:40:03 <joanie> bride?
16:40:05 * API looking other questions
16:40:05 * clown the bride of frankenstein?
16:40:10 <API> s/bride/bridge
16:40:17 <joanie> heh. Thanks
16:40:27 <joanie> I should have known but that didn't come to me
16:40:36 <API> joanie, <joanie> #info Question: Should we have a build-time flag for pyatspi2?
16:40:40 <API> could you elaborate that?
16:41:06 <joanie> yeah, mgorse has managed to create a pyatspi2 which can live in python 2 and python 3
16:41:12 <joanie> this is great for end users
16:41:22 <joanie> package maintainers
16:41:23 <joanie> etc.
16:41:24 * clown lib to rule them all...
16:41:28 <joanie> :)
16:41:47 <joanie> but since GNOME is moving towards python 3
16:42:10 <joanie> and since we are getting the two main pyatspi2 users/modules in python 3 (Orca, done; Accerciser, patches pending)
16:42:18 <joanie> I'd like it to default to python 3
16:42:26 <joanie> for simplicity, jhbuild, etc.
16:43:19 <API> what that default mean? that will only compile support for python3?
16:43:26 <mgorse> Is orca defaulting to Python 3 right now?
16:43:34 <joanie> mgorse: not defaulting
16:43:38 <joanie> Orca is ONLY python 3
16:43:47 <joanie> Accerciser will soon be ONLY python 3
16:44:02 <joanie> pyatspi on nearly any distro machine builds python 2.
16:44:11 <joanie> yes, you can specify the python
16:44:19 <joanie> but what about jhbuild?
16:44:23 <joanie> jhbuild orca fails at the moment
16:44:41 <clown> how does it fail (note to self: try to do this)?
16:44:55 <joanie> it cannot find various dependencies
16:45:03 <joanie> because they were all built with python 2
16:45:09 <joanie> that's pyatspi and cairo at least
16:45:22 <clown> i see.
16:45:30 <joanie> API isn't this going to annoy an RT member for 3.5.3? ;)
16:46:20 <API> probably
16:46:26 * API looking specific dates
16:46:30 <joanie> monday
16:46:43 <mgorse> I need to figure out what needs doing. If I change AM_PATH_PYTHON from 2.6 to 3.something, then my guess is that that won't automatically make jhbuild do the right thing
16:47:34 <joanie> so we need to sort this out
16:47:56 <joanie> jjardon is mr. jhbuild and "how's that gnome goal coming?" :)
16:48:02 <joanie> so maybe we should just ping him
16:48:34 <mgorse> ok
16:49:11 <joanie> and we should ping david
16:49:21 <API> well, I think that it is time to close this item
16:49:23 <mgorse> #action mgorse will ping jjardon / ask how best to get pyatspi to build against Python 3 in jhbuild
16:49:26 <API> so, info actions?
16:49:39 <API> mgorse is faster than me
16:49:48 <joanie> #action Joanie will ping David Bolter regarding a11y always on and the gecko migration to gtk3
16:50:41 <mgorse> though I guess it's more than jhbuild, since configure should just work, but not sure if there's a convention
16:50:58 <joanie> yeah, I dunno
16:51:12 <joanie> configure solves it for orca it seems
16:51:25 <API> well, lets move then
16:51:28 <API> #topic GUADEC BoF proposed
16:51:29 <mgorse> yeah, one option is to just require Python 3
16:51:30 <API> joanie, ?
16:51:39 <joanie> mgorse: let's discuss more later
16:51:51 <mgorse> Okay. Move along, get along, move along, get along, go, move, shift.l
16:52:14 <joanie> #info Joanie worked on a draft with Piñeiro and Juanjo and submitted it as a BoF.
16:52:21 <joanie> #info Joanie suspects it will be accepted.
16:52:38 <joanie> #info Anyone coming to GUADEC should therefore plan on participating.
16:52:54 <joanie> #info Joanie requested the 30th as that will make it possible for Andre Klapper to join is.
16:52:57 <joanie> (done)
16:53:18 <joanie> s/is/us/
16:53:39 <API> this seems a short item
16:53:43 <API> questions, doubts?
16:53:47 <joanie> you're in a hurry
16:53:48 <joanie> ;)
16:54:43 <API> always, if not any item became misc time :P
16:55:07 <jjmarin> shot marketing
16:55:12 <jjmarin> short
16:55:13 <API> #topic marketing
16:55:19 <jjmarin> #info the Fa11y oG counter is up and running again. This week is US$ 17,152 , so that means US$ 800 more than two weeks ago.
16:56:17 <jjmarin> #info I don't have any response about the OFL FLOSS booth, I think we don't have other associations interested yet
16:56:30 <jjmarin> done
16:56:56 <jjmarin> question, suggestion or move to misc ?
16:57:17 <jjmarin> #info jhernandez posted about the a11y FoG
16:57:28 <jjmarin> really done now :-)
16:57:33 <joanie> :)
16:58:14 <API> ok, so as there are just 3 minutes remaining
16:58:21 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
16:58:38 <API> someone wants to add something not included on th agenda?
16:59:11 <jjmarin> Zan Dobersek is adding support to Gamepad, I wonder if you can use his work for a11y features
16:59:30 <jjmarin> I think KaL is the mentor
17:00:04 <API> well it is another device
17:00:29 <API> but, do you wonder if they could be used for a11y features because you saw something similar or just wondering?
17:00:57 <clown> if it's like a joystick, it could be useful in an onscreen keyboard scenario.
17:01:02 <jjmarin> joystick and gamepad can be used as an alternative to mouse
17:02:03 <API> well, in that case I don't think that we need a specific app using it
17:02:19 <API> as the feature is already there (onscreen keyboard)
17:02:32 <API> just a additional device to control it
17:03:06 <jjmarin> I can ask KaL
17:03:07 <clown> well, maybe.  The onscreen keyboards I'm familiar with had a setting for how to access it (dwell, scanning, joystick)...
17:03:24 <clown> but, maybe caribou works differently.  dunno.
17:03:42 <API> well, in general caribou still requires several features
17:03:54 <API> don't know if eitan was lucky in his search for a co-maintainer
17:04:54 <API> anyway, as we are already over time
17:04:59 <clown> one more thing.
17:05:01 <clown> API: http://thool.wikidot.com/
17:05:02 <clown> done.
17:05:16 * API looking
17:05:23 <API> lol
17:05:26 <jjmarin> :-)
17:05:30 <API> closing the meeting
17:05:31 * heidi laughing!
17:05:34 <API> #endmeeting