Attachment '20120614_log.txt'

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   1 16:05:45 <API> #startmeeting
   2 16:05:45 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jun 14 16:05:45 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:05:45 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:06:05 <API> janina, as you have some time constraints
   5 16:06:15 <API> do you want to start as clown suggested?
   6 16:06:38 <janina> Hi, I'm not independently tracking topics, sorry?
   7 16:06:57 <janina> I wanted to stop by for two reasons
   8 16:07:09 <janina> May three reasons
   9 16:07:15 <janina> I should be here sometimes--sorry!
  10 16:07:35 <janina> Also, we're starting up work at W3C that might be of interest, particularly Independent User Interfaces
  11 16:07:47 <janina> I'm offering to answer any questions about that as needed.
  12 16:08:11 <API> as we are using the bot
  13 16:08:24 <API> #topic W3C IndieUI working group participation http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Main_Page.
  14 16:08:24 <janina> And, while I'm here, I wanted to offer voice teleconference facilities to this meeting, if you all want such a thing. I have it, and it costs me nothing to share it
  15 16:08:25 <clown> API, you want info's?
  16 16:08:36 <API> clown, yes please
  17 16:08:45 <clown> I'll try to summarize Janina
  18 16:08:58 <API> thanks
  19 16:09:23 <clown> #info last week, Joseph descirbed a new working group at the W3C — the Independant User Interface group "IndieUI"
  20 16:09:42 <clown> #info they are recruiting, and Joseph thought that some should attend from GNOME a11y.
  21 16:09:58 <clown> #info Janina is the chair of the group, and is here today
  22 16:10:46 <clown> #info she is (1) offering to answer any questions about participation, and (2) offering to donate a voice teleconference system for these meeting (#a11y-meeting)
  23 16:11:02 <clown> yields floor to other for questions for Janina.
  24 16:11:35 <joanie> Hey Janina. I am considering asking to be an "invited expert" for this new workgroup.
  25 16:11:54 <janina> You should go ahead and join our next call without obligation
  26 16:11:57 <joanie> But I haven't had time yet to read up on it or check with API (Piñeiro) as per my action item.
  27 16:12:18 <janina> Hey, Joanie, understood
  28 16:12:37 <joanie> for the sake of minutes
  29 16:12:47 <joanie> when are meetings, or did I miss that in the scrollback?
  30 16:13:19 <janina> Meetings are Wednesdays 17:00 UTC for 60 minutes
  31 16:13:34 <joanie> #info Meetings are Wednesdays 17:00 UTC for 60 minutes
  32 16:13:36 <janina> They will become oevery other week meetings shortly
  33 16:13:52 <joanie> #info They will become every other week meetings shortly
  34 16:13:55 <janina> We're asking people who sign up to give 2-4 hours a week to Indie UI
  35 16:13:57 <joanie> (janina we have a bot)
  36 16:14:42 <joanie> #info The anticipated committment required is 2-4 hours a week to Indie UI
  37 16:15:12 <joanie> thanks janina. I shall see if I can attend these.
  38 16:15:20 <janina> Great!
  39 16:16:26 <API> ok, so anything else, or should I move on to next item
  40 16:16:27 <API> ?
  41 16:16:32 <API> s/item/topic
  42 16:16:49 <clown> API, do we want to consider Janina's teleconference offer?
  43 16:17:09 <API> hmm, well not sure
  44 16:17:22 <API> that would depend on the people that want to join to those meetings
  45 16:17:23 <janina> No rush!
  46 16:17:37 <joanie> or is the offer for this meeting (i.e. gnome a11y)
  47 16:17:38 <clown> that might be something to discuss at the end of the meeting or "offline".
  48 16:17:42 <API> for example, in my case, if I want to join, I guess that something like skype/ekiga would work
  49 16:17:47 <joanie> if it is for us, I'm thinking the answer is "no"
  50 16:17:48 <clown> joanie:  it's for this meeting.
  51 16:18:06 <joanie> simply because we are international and can read and write in english better than we can speak and be understood
  52 16:18:10 <joanie> nature of the beast, etc.
  53 16:18:17 <joanie> and voice ain't logged.
  54 16:18:19 <joanie> for reference
  55 16:18:34 <janina> Makes sense to me!
  56 16:18:37 <clown> all valid points.
  57 16:18:38 <joanie> so personally I think the answer is, Thank you very much Janina.
  58 16:18:48 <joanie> But on our team (most of whom are not native English speakers)
  59 16:18:59 <joanie> I'm not sure it is an improvement to IRC.
  60 16:19:16 <janina> OK
  61 16:19:34 <joanie> But thank you
  62 16:19:51 <janina> Of course. Any time. It remains open if ever needed.
  63 16:20:35 <API> janina, ok, thanks
  64 16:20:52 <API> so if nobody is agains I will move to next topic
  65 16:21:02 <joanie> +1
  66 16:21:15 <clown> +1
  67 16:21:31 * clown thanks Janina
  68 16:21:41 <janina> OK. Bye for now!
  69 16:21:48 * joanie waves
  70 16:22:46 <API> #topic Possible joint session/BoF/whatever with BugSquad at GUADEC?
  71 16:23:03 <API> joanie, ?
  72 16:23:06 <joanie> sure
  73 16:23:27 <joanie> #info We have only had one reply so far from the BugSquad regarding my suggestion of having a joint BoF.
  74 16:23:44 <joanie> #info That response came from Andre Klapper (BugSquad team lead).
  75 16:24:06 <joanie> #info Joanie is not sure if this is something we should propose (more questions in a moment).
  76 16:24:29 <joanie> #info Andre also suggested in a private email that this might be worth expanding to BugSquad and GNOME Developers.
  77 16:24:55 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks that this idea might be worth doing, if there is sufficient interest.
  78 16:25:01 <jjmarin> +1
  79 16:25:33 <joanie> #info The other question Joanie is wondering is: Should we just have a broad a11y BoF proposed, encourage all teams to show up, and decide what to discuss when people arrive.
  80 16:25:40 * joanie yields the floor
  81 16:26:19 <API> well, last year
  82 16:26:26 <API> we had a BoF on Berlin
  83 16:26:31 <API> some people appeared
  84 16:26:39 <API> but most of them people working on a11y directly
  85 16:26:53 <joanie> (in which case we have an informal hackfest)
  86 16:27:07 <API> well, we mostly talked, we didn't start to hack
  87 16:27:11 <API> was a short BoF
  88 16:27:17 <joanie> heh
  89 16:27:56 <joanie> It sounds like there are plenty of free slots
  90 16:28:15 <joanie> thus our proposing something and having it accepted will not deny others of space
  91 16:28:34 <joanie> I think I have just convinced myself that we should do this
  92 16:28:43 <joanie> and be prepared to discuss or work on whatever
  93 16:28:46 <API> well, we can propose that BoF
  94 16:28:49 <joanie> based upon who shows up
  95 16:28:53 <API> and sending mails to other teams inviting them
  96 16:28:59 * joanie nods
  97 16:29:06 <API> ah sorry, you already proposed that
  98 16:29:15 <API> "encourage all teams to show up"
  99 16:29:18 * joanie waits for other input before taking an action item
 100 16:29:32 <jjmarin> I think we should called the BoF more friendly sth like "workshop about how to make your app accessible" more than "a11y BoF"
 101 16:29:43 * joanie nods
 102 16:29:52 <joanie> we'll come up with something open
 103 16:30:42 <jjmarin> "a11y BoF" sounds like "a11y team meeting"
 104 16:30:56 <joanie> #action Joanie will write up a proposal for an Accessibility-related BoF encouraging all teams to participate (both through its description, and through team invites).
 105 16:30:57 <API> jjmarin, good point
 106 16:32:11 <API> something else?
 107 16:32:54 <jjmarin> Workshop sounds better to me than BoF
 108 16:33:05 <joanie> jjmarin: the call is for BoF's though
 109 16:33:06 <joanie> isn't it?
 110 16:33:08 <jjmarin> but I'm not a native speaker :-)
 111 16:33:22 <joanie> lightning talks and BoFs
 112 16:33:28 <joanie> this is not a lightning talk
 113 16:33:32 <joanie> thus it becomes a BoF
 114 16:33:41 <joanie> but I will come up with inclusive language
 115 16:34:15 <clown> don't use the abbreviation, use "Birds of a Feather"?
 116 16:34:33 * clown notes that's an English idiom.
 117 16:34:46 <jjmarin> this sounds like "angry birds" :-)
 118 16:34:47 <joanie> I'll come up with something
 119 16:35:01 * clown grrrrr  - cheep
 120 16:35:09 * joanie winces
 121 16:35:10 <jjmarin> :-D
 122 16:35:40 <API> guys it is not misc time yet
 123 16:35:48 <API> anyway, lets conclude that we will work on the name
 124 16:35:52 <API> should we move on?
 125 16:35:54 * clown sits quietly
 126 16:36:04 <joanie> Grumpy leader is grumpy :P
 127 16:36:07 * joanie hides quickly
 128 16:36:45 <jjmarin> 3 .. 2 .. 1
 129 16:37:40 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 130 16:37:43 <API> jjmarin, ?
 131 16:38:33 <jjmarin> #info The FoG counter hasn't been updated this week again.
 132 16:38:41 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will request updating the FoG counter (again)
 133 16:39:01 <jjmarin> #info Karen Sandler published a piece of news in the gnome website about encouraging to participate to reach the goal.
 134 16:39:14 <jjmarin> #info Karen also posted in planet gnome
 135 16:39:27 <jjmarin> #info Alan Bell also posted about the campaing in ubuntu planet
 136 16:39:59 <jjmarin> #info and AFAIK jhernandez will post as well in planet gnome about this
 137 16:40:05 * jjmarin is curious to know what the real figure is
 138 16:40:21 * jhernandez nods
 139 16:40:21 <jjmarin> #info No news about the collaborative a11y action for OFL. Waiting for reply from Karen and Bryen. They asked for collaboration to other free software projects.
 140 16:41:03 <jjmarin> and I think is all for this week
 141 16:41:46 <jjmarin> #info the problem with the The FoG counter was fixed by the sysadmin team
 142 16:42:15 <jjmarin> questions ?
 143 16:42:50 <jjmarin> next topic then ?
 144 16:42:54 <jhernandez> jjmarin: I think we can get another "story"
 145 16:43:06 <jhernandez> from a capi centre, in Granada
 146 16:43:19 <jjmarin> jhernandez: I think this can help :-)
 147 16:43:44 <jjmarin> peope like stories
 148 16:44:29 <jhernandez> jjmarin: I'll ping the centre
 149 16:45:29 <jjmarin> the only problem I seen is we don't have to put too much attention to gnome 2 features
 150 16:45:31 <jhernandez> I think he has a tetraplegia
 151 16:46:22 <jjmarin> it sounds a good case
 152 16:46:29 <jjmarin> go for it !
 153 16:47:18 <jhernandez> jjmarin: sure! ;)
 154 16:47:33 <jjmarin> anything more ?
 155 16:47:41 <jhernandez> not from my side
 156 16:48:13 <API> so moving on?
 157 16:48:30 <jjmarin> yes
 158 16:48:35 <API> #topic Accessibility for developers and designers
 159 16:48:53 <API> jjmarin, ?
 160 16:48:57 <clown> API, what happened to item 5?
 161 16:49:03 <clown> "Reminders"?
 162 16:49:26 <API> well, as they were just reminders
 163 16:49:35 <API> I thought that didn't need discusion
 164 16:49:39 <API> anyway, yes you are true
 165 16:49:45 <API> just in case someone want to say something
 166 16:49:51 <API> #topic Reminders:
 167 16:49:56 <clown> well, I have some info on "numbers".
 168 16:49:58 <API> #info Input needed for the Open Help Conference
 169 16:50:04 <API> #info Numbers still needed for William Jon McCann on prevalence of disability.(?)
 170 16:50:08 <API> so clown your turn
 171 16:50:12 <clown> okay.
 172 16:51:00 <clown> #info Joseph has received input from Peter, Jutta (IDRC director), and Julia (IDRC's OT) about prevalence of disability.
 173 16:51:19 <clown> #info is still digesting the info.
 174 16:51:58 <clown> #info there are references to documents that contain statiistics.  Big documents.  I'm not sure how useful that is.
 175 16:52:28 <clown> #info a common theme from all respondents is "numbers are wrong headed; better to choose quick acces for ease of use".
 176 16:52:40 * joanie nods
 177 16:53:03 <clown> #info Jutta suggested that the menu should be user defined.  E.g., if you are a screen reader user, you put the screen reader prefs that you want in that menu.
 178 16:53:40 <clown> #info also, there was an email on a11y list from Robert Cole requesting connected mouse scroll wheel to magnification.
 179 16:53:50 <clown> #info this is another form of quick access, but not from a menu.
 180 16:54:19 <clown> #info Joseph is trying to digest all of this and come up with a set of points that get at the heart of the issue.
 181 16:54:28 <clown> done — any questions?
 182 16:54:44 * joanie applauds clown's efforts and work in this area
 183 16:54:46 <joanie> thanks!
 184 16:54:52 <clown> wlcm
 185 16:55:17 <clown> any suggestion in terms of next steps?
 186 16:55:25 <API> well, lets move
 187 16:55:32 <clown> okay
 188 16:55:42 <API> because today I need to go just at 17:00 (local time)
 189 16:55:58 <API> #topic Accessibility for developers and designers
 190 16:55:58 <joanie> clown: When you have something that we can share with WJM I think the next step is to do so
 191 16:56:08 <API> from last meeting
 192 16:56:09 <clown> okay, joanie
 193 16:56:25 <API> #info ACTION: Joanie will talk to Piñeiro to see if he can go to the UX Hackfest
 194 16:56:47 <API> #info I'm still looking at dates, so not sure if 100% there, although I would like to be there
 195 16:56:48 <joanie> #info Joanie did so. But late last night.
 196 16:57:11 * joanie refrains from infoing 'joanie is a slacker' ;)
 197 16:57:13 <API> #info at least to update and review items listed by Willie W and Mairin on their posts, as they made a goo summary
 198 16:57:24 <API> so, more questions here?
 199 16:57:35 <joanie> api action item for you?
 200 16:57:53 <jjmarin> The new designs should be accessible in all the formats: The design team should take into account a11y features of old formats like desktops and add new features for new formats like tablets. Possibly this means new code.
 201 16:58:16 <API> #action Piñeiro will came soon with a decision of him assisting UX hackfest
 202 16:58:17 <joanie> jjmarin: That is why API should (if possible) attend.
 203 16:58:24 <API> jjmarin, yes good way to summarize that
 204 16:58:42 <jjmarin> I wonder if do not release new applications if not accessible can be a new rule for the release team
 205 16:59:03 <API> well, thats not possible
 206 16:59:12 <API> or at least it will not be accepted
 207 16:59:18 <API> take a look to GNOME Shell
 208 16:59:21 <API> being strict
 209 16:59:28 <API> alghouth it has some a11y stuff there
 210 16:59:38 <API> GNOME shell at GNOME 3.0 was not accessible
 211 16:59:49 <joanie> and we'd rather have friends well versed in (and motivated to promote and ensure) accessibility
 212 16:59:58 <joanie> than enemies forced into it
 213 17:00:01 <joanie> hence the BoF, etc.
 214 17:00:06 * joanie notes the time
 215 17:00:27 * joanie wonders if #chair is a command
 216 17:00:34 <joanie> #chair joanie
 217 17:00:38 <joanie> nope
 218 17:00:42 <joanie> I'll look later
 219 17:00:46 <joanie> api end the meeting
 220 17:00:48 <joanie> I will stay
 221 17:00:53 <joanie> I will manually add stuff
 222 17:00:56 <API> well, a mon for mix time
 223 17:01:03 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 224 17:01:03 <joanie> k
 225 17:01:19 <API> #info piñeiro added bug to change "toolkit-accessibility" default value to true
 226 17:01:37 <jjmarin> +1
 227 17:01:44 <API> #info Bastien opinion was that that would have problems with old apps, ie: gtk2 apps will still have big problems with treeviews
 228 17:02:03 <API> #info so now the implementation of this feature has changed, atk-bridge is being moved to a library
 229 17:02:17 <API> #info gtk3 apps, gnome-shell and others will load the bridge by default
 230 17:02:39 <API> #info toolkit-accessibility default value will be still false, but will only affect old apps
 231 17:02:54 <API> #info we are working now on on testting Basiten patches,
 232 17:02:56 <joanie> old apps and mozilla, etc.?
 233 17:03:00 <API> yes
 234 17:03:08 <API> but AFAIK, mozilla is using GTK2
 235 17:03:20 <joanie> but also Gecko
 236 17:03:22 <jjmarin> who is Basiten ?
 237 17:03:26 <API> sorr
 238 17:03:28 <API> Bastien
 239 17:03:30 <API> Bastien Nocera
 240 17:03:33 <jjmarin> ok
 241 17:03:48 <API> and having said so, sorry, I need to go
 242 17:03:55 <API> if you want more misc time
 243 17:03:59 <clown> thanks API.
 244 17:04:01 <joanie> api #chair me
 245 17:04:03 <jjmarin> bye API !
 246 17:04:08 <API> #chair joanie
 247 17:04:08 <tota11y> Current chairs: API joanie
 248 17:04:11 <joanie> thanks
 249 17:04:13 <joanie> bye!
 250 17:04:16 <API> to you
 251 17:04:16 <API> bye
 252 17:04:18 * jjmarin pull #chair
 253 17:04:24 <joanie> heh
 254 17:04:33 <clown> !
 255 17:04:37 <joanie> now we don't have to end the meeting
 256 17:04:43 <joanie> unless we are ready to
 257 17:04:47 <joanie> (I don't have other stuff)
 258 17:05:13 <jjmarin> ok, I'd like to go the street then :-)
 259 17:05:24 <clown> I'm still trying to digest that last point and how it might affect gecko.
 260 17:05:38 <clown> can someone quickly explain?
 261 17:05:48 <joanie> mgorse might be the best
 262 17:05:57 <joanie> I've only peripherally watched the discussion
 263 17:06:22 <jjmarin> I sounds like gtk3 will have a11y on and old gtk2 a11y off
 264 17:06:38 <mgorse> I haven't tested it so far, so I don't think I can say for sure whether it will affect Gecko
 265 17:06:49 <joanie> well, my understanding is that we are not turning on a11y by default after all
 266 17:06:59 <mgorse> I didn't see anything when reviewing it that would make it break, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything
 267 17:07:03 <joanie> instead we are enabling it (making it always on) on a toolkit by toolkit basis.
 268 17:07:19 <joanie> thus it will not be on for Gecko
 269 17:07:20 <clown> where toolkit = some version of Gtk?
 270 17:07:24 <joanie> or Gecko
 271 17:07:27 <joanie> or clutter
 272 17:07:29 <joanie> or Qt
 273 17:07:31 <joanie> or
 274 17:07:36 <clown> or St
 275 17:07:41 <joanie> exactly
 276 17:07:59 <mgorse> I guess we'll still need to have Orca set the accessibility key to on, if it isn't being set to true by default
 277 17:08:01 <joanie> so what this means is that ATs will need to continue to enable this setting
 278 17:08:02 <clown> okay, but gecko isn't a toolkit is it? it uses a toolkit, like gtk
 279 17:08:13 <joanie> clown: Gecko is a toolkit
 280 17:08:23 <clown> interesting...
 281 17:08:25 <joanie> so is XUL I think
 282 17:08:52 <joanie> thus Orca and Accerciser and other ATs will need to keep turning the setting on
 283 17:08:58 <joanie> which is not an extremely big deal
 284 17:08:59 <clown> i always thought of XUL as an "idl" that was implemented by cocoa on OSX, gtk on gnome, etc.
 285 17:09:03 <mgorse> Bastien's patch removed gnome_accessibility_module_init from the gtk module provided with gtk 3, and Gecko uses this symbol to load the bridge, but afaik Gecko is still using gtk 2, and the symbol wasn't removed from the gtk 2 module
 286 17:09:44 <joanie> clown: I'm not sure. But I know that XUL widgets don't behave like traditional Gtk widgets nor like Gecko HTML widgets nor like ARIA widgets (in all cases/across the board)
 287 17:09:45 <clown> thanks mgorse
 288 17:09:54 <joanie> so XUL is ... something toolkity I think ;)
 289 17:10:34 <joanie> as a related aside clown this has to do with the ARIA tab panels (in a way)
 290 17:10:43 <joanie> i.e. Orca has to try to guess what the frick it is in
 291 17:10:48 <clown> well, ARIA widgets are implemented by the author.  there you are talking about toolkits like dojo, jQuery, etc.  which are 'inside' the page, and have no access to the a11y layer.
 292 17:10:57 <joanie> and determine heuristically if it should be controlling the caret or not
 293 17:11:22 <joanie> if Firefox always presented non-navigable widgets in the same way so this was not required
 294 17:11:30 <joanie> we wouldn't have these sorts of issues
 295 17:11:41 <joanie> if Firefox had non-broken caret navigation, we wouldn't have these issues
 296 17:11:42 <joanie> ;)
 297 17:11:44 <clown> in the case of ARIA, it's the browsers responbility to expose the ARIA info to the a11y API.
 298 17:12:05 <clown> right you are joanie.
 299 17:12:06 <joanie> I would prefer it just expose widgets
 300 17:12:14 <joanie> so that I didn't have to worry about ARIA
 301 17:12:19 <joanie> and XUL and Gecko and ....
 302 17:12:24 <clown> indeed.
 303 17:12:28 <joanie> but anyway, but of a digression
 304 17:12:38 <joanie> but you can bring that back to the folks looking into this
 305 17:12:44 <joanie> other topics?
 306 17:13:23 <clown> thanks for that info.  things are less muddy now (about a11y on automatically).
 307 17:14:50 <joanie> if there is nothing else....
 308 17:14:58 * joanie prepares to raise gavel and look for fingers
 309 17:16:09 <joanie> #endmeeting

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