16:05:45 <API> #startmeeting
16:05:45 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jun 14 16:05:45 2012 CET.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:05:45 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:06:05 <API> janina, as you have some time constraints
16:06:15 <API> do you want to start as clown suggested?
16:06:38 <janina> Hi, I'm not independently tracking topics, sorry?
16:06:57 <janina> I wanted to stop by for two reasons
16:07:09 <janina> May three reasons
16:07:15 <janina> I should be here sometimes--sorry!
16:07:35 <janina> Also, we're starting up work at W3C that might be of interest, particularly Independent User Interfaces
16:07:47 <janina> I'm offering to answer any questions about that as needed.
16:08:11 <API> as we are using the bot
16:08:24 <API> #topic W3C IndieUI working group participation http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Main_Page.
16:08:24 <janina> And, while I'm here, I wanted to offer voice teleconference facilities to this meeting, if you all want such a thing. I have it, and it costs me nothing to share it
16:08:25 <clown> API, you want info's?
16:08:36 <API> clown, yes please
16:08:45 <clown> I'll try to summarize Janina
16:08:58 <API> thanks
16:09:23 <clown> #info last week, Joseph descirbed a new working group at the W3C — the Independant User Interface group "IndieUI"
16:09:42 <clown> #info they are recruiting, and Joseph thought that some should attend from GNOME a11y.
16:09:58 <clown> #info Janina is the chair of the group, and is here today
16:10:46 <clown> #info she is (1) offering to answer any questions about participation, and (2) offering to donate a voice teleconference system for these meeting (#a11y-meeting)
16:11:02 <clown> yields floor to other for questions for Janina.
16:11:35 <joanie> Hey Janina. I am considering asking to be an "invited expert" for this new workgroup.
16:11:54 <janina> You should go ahead and join our next call without obligation
16:11:57 <joanie> But I haven't had time yet to read up on it or check with API (Piñeiro) as per my action item.
16:12:18 <janina> Hey, Joanie, understood
16:12:37 <joanie> for the sake of minutes
16:12:47 <joanie> when are meetings, or did I miss that in the scrollback?
16:13:19 <janina> Meetings are Wednesdays 17:00 UTC for 60 minutes
16:13:34 <joanie> #info Meetings are Wednesdays 17:00 UTC for 60 minutes
16:13:36 <janina> They will become oevery other week meetings shortly
16:13:52 <joanie> #info They will become every other week meetings shortly
16:13:55 <janina> We're asking people who sign up to give 2-4 hours a week to Indie UI
16:13:57 <joanie> (janina we have a bot)
16:14:42 <joanie> #info The anticipated committment required is 2-4 hours a week to Indie UI
16:15:12 <joanie> thanks janina. I shall see if I can attend these.
16:15:20 <janina> Great!
16:16:26 <API> ok, so anything else, or should I move on to next item
16:16:27 <API> ?
16:16:32 <API> s/item/topic
16:16:49 <clown> API, do we want to consider Janina's teleconference offer?
16:17:09 <API> hmm, well not sure
16:17:22 <API> that would depend on the people that want to join to those meetings
16:17:23 <janina> No rush!
16:17:37 <joanie> or is the offer for this meeting (i.e. gnome a11y)
16:17:38 <clown> that might be something to discuss at the end of the meeting or "offline".
16:17:42 <API> for example, in my case, if I want to join, I guess that something like skype/ekiga would work
16:17:47 <joanie> if it is for us, I'm thinking the answer is "no"
16:17:48 <clown> joanie:  it's for this meeting.
16:18:06 <joanie> simply because we are international and can read and write in english better than we can speak and be understood
16:18:10 <joanie> nature of the beast, etc.
16:18:17 <joanie> and voice ain't logged.
16:18:19 <joanie> for reference
16:18:34 <janina> Makes sense to me!
16:18:37 <clown> all valid points.
16:18:38 <joanie> so personally I think the answer is, Thank you very much Janina.
16:18:48 <joanie> But on our team (most of whom are not native English speakers)
16:18:59 <joanie> I'm not sure it is an improvement to IRC.
16:19:16 <janina> OK
16:19:34 <joanie> But thank you
16:19:51 <janina> Of course. Any time. It remains open if ever needed.
16:20:35 <API> janina, ok, thanks
16:20:52 <API> so if nobody is agains I will move to next topic
16:21:02 <joanie> +1
16:21:15 <clown> +1
16:21:31 * clown thanks Janina
16:21:41 <janina> OK. Bye for now!
16:21:48 * joanie waves
16:22:46 <API> #topic Possible joint session/BoF/whatever with BugSquad at GUADEC?
16:23:03 <API> joanie, ?
16:23:06 <joanie> sure
16:23:27 <joanie> #info We have only had one reply so far from the BugSquad regarding my suggestion of having a joint BoF.
16:23:44 <joanie> #info That response came from Andre Klapper (BugSquad team lead).
16:24:06 <joanie> #info Joanie is not sure if this is something we should propose (more questions in a moment).
16:24:29 <joanie> #info Andre also suggested in a private email that this might be worth expanding to BugSquad and GNOME Developers.
16:24:55 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks that this idea might be worth doing, if there is sufficient interest.
16:25:01 <jjmarin> +1
16:25:33 <joanie> #info The other question Joanie is wondering is: Should we just have a broad a11y BoF proposed, encourage all teams to show up, and decide what to discuss when people arrive.
16:25:40 * joanie yields the floor
16:26:19 <API> well, last year
16:26:26 <API> we had a BoF on Berlin
16:26:31 <API> some people appeared
16:26:39 <API> but most of them people working on a11y directly
16:26:53 <joanie> (in which case we have an informal hackfest)
16:27:07 <API> well, we mostly talked, we didn't start to hack
16:27:11 <API> was a short BoF
16:27:17 <joanie> heh
16:27:56 <joanie> It sounds like there are plenty of free slots
16:28:15 <joanie> thus our proposing something and having it accepted will not deny others of space
16:28:34 <joanie> I think I have just convinced myself that we should do this
16:28:43 <joanie> and be prepared to discuss or work on whatever
16:28:46 <API> well, we can propose that BoF
16:28:49 <joanie> based upon who shows up
16:28:53 <API> and sending mails to other teams inviting them
16:28:59 * joanie nods
16:29:06 <API> ah sorry, you already proposed that
16:29:15 <API> "encourage all teams to show up"
16:29:18 * joanie waits for other input before taking an action item
16:29:32 <jjmarin> I think we should called the BoF more friendly sth like "workshop about how to make your app accessible" more than "a11y BoF"
16:29:43 * joanie nods
16:29:52 <joanie> we'll come up with something open
16:30:42 <jjmarin> "a11y BoF" sounds like "a11y team meeting"
16:30:56 <joanie> #action Joanie will write up a proposal for an Accessibility-related BoF encouraging all teams to participate (both through its description, and through team invites).
16:30:57 <API> jjmarin, good point
16:32:11 <API> something else?
16:32:54 <jjmarin> Workshop sounds better to me than BoF
16:33:05 <joanie> jjmarin: the call is for BoF's though
16:33:06 <joanie> isn't it?
16:33:08 <jjmarin> but I'm not a native speaker :-)
16:33:22 <joanie> lightning talks and BoFs
16:33:28 <joanie> this is not a lightning talk
16:33:32 <joanie> thus it becomes a BoF
16:33:41 <joanie> but I will come up with inclusive language
16:34:15 <clown> don't use the abbreviation, use "Birds of a Feather"?
16:34:33 * clown notes that's an English idiom.
16:34:46 <jjmarin> this sounds like "angry birds" :-)
16:34:47 <joanie> I'll come up with something
16:35:01 * clown grrrrr  - cheep
16:35:09 * joanie winces
16:35:10 <jjmarin> :-D
16:35:40 <API> guys it is not misc time yet
16:35:48 <API> anyway, lets conclude that we will work on the name
16:35:52 <API> should we move on?
16:35:54 * clown sits quietly
16:36:04 <joanie> Grumpy leader is grumpy :P
16:36:07 * joanie hides quickly
16:36:45 <jjmarin> 3 .. 2 .. 1
16:37:40 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
16:37:43 <API> jjmarin, ?
16:38:33 <jjmarin> #info The FoG counter hasn't been updated this week again.
16:38:41 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will request updating the FoG counter (again)
16:39:01 <jjmarin> #info Karen Sandler published a piece of news in the gnome website about encouraging to participate to reach the goal.
16:39:14 <jjmarin> #info Karen also posted in planet gnome
16:39:27 <jjmarin> #info Alan Bell also posted about the campaing in ubuntu planet
16:39:59 <jjmarin> #info and AFAIK jhernandez will post as well in planet gnome about this
16:40:05 * jjmarin is curious to know what the real figure is
16:40:21 * jhernandez nods
16:40:21 <jjmarin> #info No news about the collaborative a11y action for OFL. Waiting for reply from Karen and Bryen. They asked for collaboration to other free software projects.
16:41:03 <jjmarin> and I think is all for this week
16:41:46 <jjmarin> #info the problem with the The FoG counter was fixed by the sysadmin team
16:42:15 <jjmarin> questions ?
16:42:50 <jjmarin> next topic then ?
16:42:54 <jhernandez> jjmarin: I think we can get another "story"
16:43:06 <jhernandez> from a capi centre, in Granada
16:43:19 <jjmarin> jhernandez: I think this can help :-)
16:43:44 <jjmarin> peope like stories
16:44:29 <jhernandez> jjmarin: I'll ping the centre
16:45:29 <jjmarin> the only problem I seen is we don't have to put too much attention to gnome 2 features
16:45:31 <jhernandez> I think he has a tetraplegia
16:46:22 <jjmarin> it sounds a good case
16:46:29 <jjmarin> go for it !
16:47:18 <jhernandez> jjmarin: sure! ;)
16:47:33 <jjmarin> anything more ?
16:47:41 <jhernandez> not from my side
16:48:13 <API> so moving on?
16:48:30 <jjmarin> yes
16:48:35 <API> #topic Accessibility for developers and designers
16:48:53 <API> jjmarin, ?
16:48:57 <clown> API, what happened to item 5?
16:49:03 <clown> "Reminders"?
16:49:26 <API> well, as they were just reminders
16:49:35 <API> I thought that didn't need discusion
16:49:39 <API> anyway, yes you are true
16:49:45 <API> just in case someone want to say something
16:49:51 <API> #topic Reminders:
16:49:56 <clown> well, I have some info on "numbers".
16:49:58 <API> #info Input needed for the Open Help Conference
16:50:04 <API> #info Numbers still needed for William Jon McCann on prevalence of disability.(?)
16:50:08 <API> so clown your turn
16:50:12 <clown> okay.
16:51:00 <clown> #info Joseph has received input from Peter, Jutta (IDRC director), and Julia (IDRC's OT) about prevalence of disability.
16:51:19 <clown> #info is still digesting the info.
16:51:58 <clown> #info there are references to documents that contain statiistics.  Big documents.  I'm not sure how useful that is.
16:52:28 <clown> #info a common theme from all respondents is "numbers are wrong headed; better to choose quick acces for ease of use".
16:52:40 * joanie nods
16:53:03 <clown> #info Jutta suggested that the menu should be user defined.  E.g., if you are a screen reader user, you put the screen reader prefs that you want in that menu.
16:53:40 <clown> #info also, there was an email on a11y list from Robert Cole requesting connected mouse scroll wheel to magnification.
16:53:50 <clown> #info this is another form of quick access, but not from a menu.
16:54:19 <clown> #info Joseph is trying to digest all of this and come up with a set of points that get at the heart of the issue.
16:54:28 <clown> done — any questions?
16:54:44 * joanie applauds clown's efforts and work in this area
16:54:46 <joanie> thanks!
16:54:52 <clown> wlcm
16:55:17 <clown> any suggestion in terms of next steps?
16:55:25 <API> well, lets move
16:55:32 <clown> okay
16:55:42 <API> because today I need to go just at 17:00 (local time)
16:55:58 <API> #topic Accessibility for developers and designers
16:55:58 <joanie> clown: When you have something that we can share with WJM I think the next step is to do so
16:56:08 <API> from last meeting
16:56:09 <clown> okay, joanie
16:56:25 <API> #info ACTION: Joanie will talk to Piñeiro to see if he can go to the UX Hackfest
16:56:47 <API> #info I'm still looking at dates, so not sure if 100% there, although I would like to be there
16:56:48 <joanie> #info Joanie did so. But late last night.
16:57:11 * joanie refrains from infoing 'joanie is a slacker' ;)
16:57:13 <API> #info at least to update and review items listed by Willie W and Mairin on their posts, as they made a goo summary
16:57:24 <API> so, more questions here?
16:57:35 <joanie> api action item for you?
16:57:53 <jjmarin> The new designs should be accessible in all the formats: The design team should take into account a11y features of old formats like desktops and add new features for new formats like tablets. Possibly this means new code.
16:58:16 <API> #action Piñeiro will came soon with a decision of him assisting UX hackfest
16:58:17 <joanie> jjmarin: That is why API should (if possible) attend.
16:58:24 <API> jjmarin, yes good way to summarize that
16:58:42 <jjmarin> I wonder if do not release new applications if not accessible can be a new rule for the release team
16:59:03 <API> well, thats not possible
16:59:12 <API> or at least it will not be accepted
16:59:18 <API> take a look to GNOME Shell
16:59:21 <API> being strict
16:59:28 <API> alghouth it has some a11y stuff there
16:59:38 <API> GNOME shell at GNOME 3.0 was not accessible
16:59:49 <joanie> and we'd rather have friends well versed in (and motivated to promote and ensure) accessibility
16:59:58 <joanie> than enemies forced into it
17:00:01 <joanie> hence the BoF, etc.
17:00:06 * joanie notes the time
17:00:27 * joanie wonders if #chair is a command
17:00:34 <joanie> #chair joanie
17:00:38 <joanie> nope
17:00:42 <joanie> I'll look later
17:00:46 <joanie> api end the meeting
17:00:48 <joanie> I will stay
17:00:53 <joanie> I will manually add stuff
17:00:56 <API> well, a mon for mix time
17:01:03 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
17:01:03 <joanie> k
17:01:19 <API> #info piñeiro added bug to change "toolkit-accessibility" default value to true
17:01:37 <jjmarin> +1
17:01:44 <API> #info Bastien opinion was that that would have problems with old apps, ie: gtk2 apps will still have big problems with treeviews
17:02:03 <API> #info so now the implementation of this feature has changed, atk-bridge is being moved to a library
17:02:17 <API> #info gtk3 apps, gnome-shell and others will load the bridge by default
17:02:39 <API> #info toolkit-accessibility default value will be still false, but will only affect old apps
17:02:54 <API> #info we are working now on on testting Basiten patches,
17:02:56 <joanie> old apps and mozilla, etc.?
17:03:00 <API> yes
17:03:08 <API> but AFAIK, mozilla is using GTK2
17:03:20 <joanie> but also Gecko
17:03:22 <jjmarin> who is Basiten ?
17:03:26 <API> sorr
17:03:28 <API> Bastien
17:03:30 <API> Bastien Nocera
17:03:33 <jjmarin> ok
17:03:48 <API> and having said so, sorry, I need to go
17:03:55 <API> if you want more misc time
17:03:59 <clown> thanks API.
17:04:01 <joanie> api #chair me
17:04:03 <jjmarin> bye API !
17:04:08 <API> #chair joanie
17:04:08 <tota11y> Current chairs: API joanie
17:04:11 <joanie> thanks
17:04:13 <joanie> bye!
17:04:16 <API> to you
17:04:16 <API> bye
17:04:18 * jjmarin pull #chair
17:04:24 <joanie> heh
17:04:33 <clown> !
17:04:37 <joanie> now we don't have to end the meeting
17:04:43 <joanie> unless we are ready to
17:04:47 <joanie> (I don't have other stuff)
17:05:13 <jjmarin> ok, I'd like to go the street then :-)
17:05:24 <clown> I'm still trying to digest that last point and how it might affect gecko.
17:05:38 <clown> can someone quickly explain?
17:05:48 <joanie> mgorse might be the best
17:05:57 <joanie> I've only peripherally watched the discussion
17:06:22 <jjmarin> I sounds like gtk3 will have a11y on and old gtk2 a11y off
17:06:38 <mgorse> I haven't tested it so far, so I don't think I can say for sure whether it will affect Gecko
17:06:49 <joanie> well, my understanding is that we are not turning on a11y by default after all
17:06:59 <mgorse> I didn't see anything when reviewing it that would make it break, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything
17:07:03 <joanie> instead we are enabling it (making it always on) on a toolkit by toolkit basis.
17:07:19 <joanie> thus it will not be on for Gecko
17:07:20 <clown> where toolkit = some version of Gtk?
17:07:24 <joanie> or Gecko
17:07:27 <joanie> or clutter
17:07:29 <joanie> or Qt
17:07:31 <joanie> or
17:07:36 <clown> or St
17:07:41 <joanie> exactly
17:07:59 <mgorse> I guess we'll still need to have Orca set the accessibility key to on, if it isn't being set to true by default
17:08:01 <joanie> so what this means is that ATs will need to continue to enable this setting
17:08:02 <clown> okay, but gecko isn't a toolkit is it? it uses a toolkit, like gtk
17:08:13 <joanie> clown: Gecko is a toolkit
17:08:23 <clown> interesting...
17:08:25 <joanie> so is XUL I think
17:08:52 <joanie> thus Orca and Accerciser and other ATs will need to keep turning the setting on
17:08:58 <joanie> which is not an extremely big deal
17:08:59 <clown> i always thought of XUL as an "idl" that was implemented by cocoa on OSX, gtk on gnome, etc.
17:09:03 <mgorse> Bastien's patch removed gnome_accessibility_module_init from the gtk module provided with gtk 3, and Gecko uses this symbol to load the bridge, but afaik Gecko is still using gtk 2, and the symbol wasn't removed from the gtk 2 module
17:09:44 <joanie> clown: I'm not sure. But I know that XUL widgets don't behave like traditional Gtk widgets nor like Gecko HTML widgets nor like ARIA widgets (in all cases/across the board)
17:09:45 <clown> thanks mgorse
17:09:54 <joanie> so XUL is ... something toolkity I think ;)
17:10:34 <joanie> as a related aside clown this has to do with the ARIA tab panels (in a way)
17:10:43 <joanie> i.e. Orca has to try to guess what the frick it is in
17:10:48 <clown> well, ARIA widgets are implemented by the author.  there you are talking about toolkits like dojo, jQuery, etc.  which are 'inside' the page, and have no access to the a11y layer.
17:10:57 <joanie> and determine heuristically if it should be controlling the caret or not
17:11:22 <joanie> if Firefox always presented non-navigable widgets in the same way so this was not required
17:11:30 <joanie> we wouldn't have these sorts of issues
17:11:41 <joanie> if Firefox had non-broken caret navigation, we wouldn't have these issues
17:11:42 <joanie> ;)
17:11:44 <clown> in the case of ARIA, it's the browsers responbility to expose the ARIA info to the a11y API.
17:12:05 <clown> right you are joanie.
17:12:06 <joanie> I would prefer it just expose widgets
17:12:14 <joanie> so that I didn't have to worry about ARIA
17:12:19 <joanie> and XUL and Gecko and ....
17:12:24 <clown> indeed.
17:12:28 <joanie> but anyway, but of a digression
17:12:38 <joanie> but you can bring that back to the folks looking into this
17:12:44 <joanie> other topics?
17:13:23 <clown> thanks for that info.  things are less muddy now (about a11y on automatically).
17:14:50 <joanie> if there is nothing else....
17:14:58 * joanie prepares to raise gavel and look for fingers
17:16:09 <joanie> #endmeeting