1 16:07:04 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 16:07:04 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jun  7 16:07:04 2012 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:07:04 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:07:05 <jjmarin> it is a place for storing official documents
   5 16:07:19 <joanie> #topic Possible joint session/BoF/whatever with BugSquad at GUADEC?
   6 16:07:44 <joanie> #info Joanie emailed the BugSquad list Tuesday: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-bugsquad/2012-June/msg00000.html
   7 16:08:01 <joanie> #info No response yet, but that was only two days ago and that list is extremely low traffic.
   8 16:08:36 <joanie> #info But Joanie thinks this is a good idea and is wondering if others will be at GUADEC and interested in participating, should the BugSquad agree this is something worth doing.
   9 16:08:43 * joanie yields the floor
  10 16:09:38 <jjmarin> I think I know someone from the bug team, I can ask him
  11 16:09:50 <joanie> jjmarin: cool
  12 16:10:15 <joanie> The problem I'm hoping to solve is that the BugSquad right now cannot effectively triage a11y bugs
  13 16:10:38 <joanie> and between us (and the meeting log), this has resulted in more work rather than less w.r.t. Orca
  14 16:11:00 <joanie> so a year or two ago, I just said "please stop triaging for Pete's sake!"
  15 16:11:23 <clown> Pete?
  16 16:11:29 <joanie> heh
  17 16:11:41 <joanie> I was being a lady and not saying ffs ;)
  18 16:11:52 <clown> you mean they were throwing away perfectly good bugs — ones that needed fixing?
  19 16:11:58 <joanie> no
  20 16:12:06 <joanie> well, actually, yes
  21 16:12:24 <joanie> In some cases they would NEEDINFO bugs which did not need info
  22 16:12:43 <joanie> or saying "There's no explanation for what Accerciser is or how to use it"
  23 16:12:53 <joanie> closing bugs that I hadn't gotten to
  24 16:13:33 <joanie> And if we empower the BugSquad with knowledge of Accessibility, Accerciser, etc. then we can turn them into a real asset (I think)
  25 16:14:04 <clown> okay, it's making more sense to me now.  what was the response to your request that they stop triaging (for Pete's sake!)?
  26 16:14:10 <joanie> So if, for instance, someone files an "Orca doesn't work with Evolution" bug against Orca, they could triage it and discover that Evo a11y is totally borked
  27 16:14:13 <joanie> and move the bug to Evo
  28 16:14:29 <joanie> clown: One guy actually ignored my request
  29 16:14:38 <joanie> and instead started leaving passive agressive comments
  30 16:14:39 <clown> so, no response from him...
  31 16:14:43 <clown> ;-(
  32 16:14:46 <joanie> Seriously
  33 16:15:09 <joanie> He'd close bugs with comments like "Joanmarie doesn't think I should close this or triage this, but ...."
  34 16:15:29 <joanie> Orca bugs
  35 16:15:33 <joanie> anyway rant over
  36 16:15:49 <joanie> jjmarin: going to GUADEC I assume?
  37 16:15:59 <jjmarin> yes
  38 16:16:01 <joanie> and if so, are you willing to help out?
  39 16:16:04 <jjmarin> It's my plan
  40 16:16:05 <joanie> if we have such a BoF
  41 16:16:06 <jjmarin> yes
  42 16:16:08 <joanie> yay
  43 16:16:10 <clown> wow…  this is were you ask for other a11y developers to take a look. they in turn might add a comment to the effect, "well, no only Joanmarie thinks that way, but so do I.."
  44 16:16:40 <joanie> clown: It's when you go to the team lead and say privately, excuse me but wtf
  45 16:16:47 <joanie> and the team lead took care of it
  46 16:17:00 <clown> yeah.
  47 16:17:06 <joanie> not our team lead; theirs
  48 16:17:23 <joanie> #info Juanjo is willing to help out if we have this BoF.
  49 16:17:33 <joanie> clown: mgorse: going to GUADEC?
  50 16:17:35 <clown> speaking for myself, I don't think I will be going to GUADEC.  Any chance of attending this BOF remotely?
  51 16:17:46 <joanie> dunno but that's a good question
  52 16:17:56 <clown> btw, when is GUADEC again?  End of July?
  53 16:18:13 <joanie> #action Joanie will see about ways to make this BoF remotely-attendable (should the BoF occur).
  54 16:18:19 <joanie> clown: Yeah
  55 16:18:35 <joanie> though the BoF days are (I think) the end
  56 16:18:38 * joanie looks
  57 16:18:50 <mgorse> I don't have plans to as of now, anyway
  58 16:19:25 <clown> July for us it our "MA in Inclusive Design" intensive month — we are supposed to be available to teach "at a moment's notice".
  59 16:19:44 <joanie> http://www.guadec.org/
  60 16:19:53 <joanie> http://www.guadec.org/lightning-bof-cfp
  61 16:20:16 <joanie> so 30 July - 1 Aug
  62 16:20:42 <clown> the Masters program is Jul 9 − 27
  63 16:20:48 <joanie> cool
  64 16:21:06 <joanie> I like the remote idea. Should make it possible for more folks to participate
  65 16:21:07 <clown> so, they don't actually overlap.  hmmm.  I'll think about it some more.
  66 16:21:15 <joanie> thanks clown!
  67 16:21:30 <joanie> #info Piñeiro also said he could participate in this.
  68 16:21:45 <clown> the other issue is travel, and I'm trying to get travel covered for a W3C conference in the fall.
  69 16:21:48 <joanie> #info so we just need to see if the BugSquad is interested and available.
  70 16:22:15 <joanie> I'm not sure if the call for travel sponsorship has ended or not
  71 16:22:50 <joanie> Anyhoo.... Other stuff on this topic?
  72 16:23:14 <joanie> if not.....
  73 16:23:28 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
  74 16:23:35 * joanie turns floor over to jjmarin
  75 16:24:46 <joanie> I should teach the bot to play elevator music ;)
  76 16:25:25 <jjmarin> #info It seems that the a11y FoG Campaign is stalled and we don't progress adequately
  77 16:25:36 <joanie> ?
  78 16:26:23 <jjmarin> we are getting money in a very low pace
  79 16:26:43 <jjmarin> that we use to
  80 16:26:48 <clown> where is the contributions meter?
  81 16:27:00 * clown thought it was at the top of gnome.org page.
  82 16:27:01 <joanie> aha Hard to say if this is the economy or if a11y is just not "sexy" enough.
  83 16:27:06 <jjmarin> today has disappeared !
  84 16:27:16 <joanie> really?
  85 16:27:28 <clown> maybe it's locked in that building you were locked in earlier?
  86 16:27:34 <jjmarin> :-)
  87 16:27:43 <joanie> dang, it's gone
  88 16:28:02 <jjmarin> #info the FoG banner has been removed suddenly
  89 16:28:21 <jjmarin> hey is back now !
  90 16:28:35 <jjmarin> hmm
  91 16:28:46 <clown> not for me.
  92 16:29:00 <jjmarin> ok, the thing is we have more than less the same amount of money that the last meeting I attend
  93 16:29:23 <mgorse> Is this money that the GNOME Foundation has on hand, or just money that people have pledged?
  94 16:29:27 <jjmarin> I think we need some presence in pgo to remember the campaign
  95 16:29:38 <clown> "pgo"?
  96 16:29:47 <jjmarin> planet.gnome.org
  97 16:29:53 <clown> thanks
  98 16:29:56 <joanie> yeah, the banner is not back for me
  99 16:30:24 <joanie> mgorse: I believe money that has been pledged
 100 16:30:27 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo will follow the problem with the banner
 101 16:30:35 <jjmarin> no info, action arrggg
 102 16:30:48 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will follow the problem with the banner
 103 16:30:59 <joanie> :)
 104 16:31:23 <jjmarin> My application for being included in pgo hasn't been accepted
 105 16:31:39 <jjmarin> so I'm asking for someone to post about this
 106 16:31:44 <jhernandez> jjmarin: why?
 107 16:32:02 <jjmarin> because I have only one post in English
 108 16:32:27 <joanie> heh
 109 16:32:31 <jhernandez> :s
 110 16:32:34 <jjmarin> I have to post more in English, or alternatively get in GSoC or WPO
 111 16:32:36 <jjmarin> :-)
 112 16:33:01 <jhernandez> jjmarin: I can post in pgo
 113 16:33:28 <jjmarin> great, please do this :-)
 114 16:34:11 <jjmarin> I think people forgot the campaign
 115 16:34:13 <jhernandez> of course, mail me with some highlights and I'll make a post
 116 16:34:23 <jjmarin> ok, np
 117 16:34:37 <joanie> so, on a related (to the topic) topic: jjmarin any update about OLF?
 118 16:35:03 <jjmarin> no, I have no response by now
 119 16:35:24 <joanie> ok
 120 16:35:33 <jhernandez> sorry but ... OLF?
 121 16:35:40 <joanie> Ohio linux fest
 122 16:35:50 <jhernandez> ACK
 123 16:36:11 * clown tagential:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olf_(unit)
 124 16:36:20 <joanie> Bryen I think wants an a11y presence
 125 16:36:29 <joanie> And since I'm stuck in the states, I could go
 126 16:36:37 <joanie> and mgorse might be able to as well
 127 16:36:57 <joanie> so we asked for more info (which jjmarin is dealing with on our behalf)
 128 16:37:08 <jjmarin> he want a presence of several FLOSS projects under the umbrella of acccesibility
 129 16:37:52 <jjmarin> I think I can get a response from Bryen or Karen soon
 130 16:37:58 <joanie> cool
 131 16:38:00 <joanie> thanks!
 132 16:38:13 <jhernandez> nice!
 133 16:38:18 <joanie> so.... other marketing and fundraising stuff to discuss?
 134 16:38:19 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo will provide info for the FoG campaign to jhernandez
 135 16:38:38 * joanie waits for info's
 136 16:38:40 <jjmarin> so, no more thing from my part
 137 16:39:10 <joanie> #info Juanjo will try to get an update from Bryen or Karen soon about the Ohio Linux Fest
 138 16:39:12 <joanie> ;)
 139 16:39:18 <joanie> #topic Reminders
 140 16:39:35 <joanie> #info Input is still needed for Shaun's Open Help Conference.
 141 16:39:52 <joanie> #info Team members can add thoughts on our wiki: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/AccessibleHelp
 142 16:40:23 <joanie> #info Numbers are still needed (possibly) for William Jon McCann regarding prevalence of disability.
 143 16:40:31 <joanie> clown: were you able to get any?
 144 16:40:34 <jjmarin> jhernandez: did you produce any help for Guadalinex users related to accesibility features of GNOME ?
 145 16:40:55 <jjmarin> s/Guadalinex/Guadalinfo(
 146 16:40:55 <clown> joanie:  I emailed Jan and Peter (Korn) before I went on vacation.
 147 16:41:10 <clown> I got little from Jan (he likes the current a11y menu).
 148 16:41:18 <clown> I got nothing from Peter.
 149 16:41:28 <joanie> okay
 150 16:41:32 * clown I should be info'ing this..
 151 16:41:36 <jjmarin> who's Jan ?
 152 16:41:53 <jhernandez> sorry, I was browsing ...
 153 16:41:53 <clown> Jan is my supervisor here at the IDRC.
 154 16:41:54 <jjmarin> (apart from a month)
 155 16:42:01 <jjmarin> ok
 156 16:42:07 <clown> He tends to know these things, or know who to ask.
 157 16:42:08 <jjmarin> :-)
 158 16:42:39 <clown> #info Joseph emailed Jan (a manager in the IDRC) and Peter Korn regarding stats about a11y.
 159 16:42:58 <jhernandez> jjmarin: I think we did that for Guadalinex and for Guadalinfo too
 160 16:43:00 <clown> #info not much was relayed back.  Peter did not respond.
 161 16:43:39 <clown> #info Joseph has recently asked the resident occupational therapist about the same issue.
 162 16:43:45 <jjmarin> jhernandez: maybe this can help to give some feedback to  Shaun's Open Help Conference.
 163 16:43:56 * jhernandez looking for the latest Guadalinex documentation (Gnome 3.2)
 164 16:44:01 <clown> #info she is looking into it, and will respond by the end of week (hopefully).
 165 16:44:15 <clown> #action Joseph will ping Peter again
 166 16:44:33 <clown> what is Peter's email address — maybe I got that wrong.
 167 16:44:38 <joanie> jjmarin: jhernandez: What Shaun needs is not about accessibility in GNOME; it's about best practices w.r.t. accessible documents
 168 16:44:53 <clown> I used "peter.korn@Oracle.COM"
 169 16:44:53 <joanie> clown: I think it's peter.korn@oracle.com
 170 16:44:59 <joanie> yup
 171 16:45:07 <clown> okay, I'll ping him again.
 172 16:45:22 <clown> (done).
 173 16:45:28 <joanie> thanks clown
 174 16:45:31 <clown> wlcm
 175 16:45:52 * joanie prepares to move on
 176 16:45:54 <jhernandez> joanie: ok
 177 16:46:03 <joanie> #topic Accessibility for developers and designers
 178 16:46:07 <joanie> jjmarin?
 179 16:46:21 <jjmarin> k
 180 16:47:56 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo has written a draft about how to improve accessibility by promoting a11y to developers and designers
 181 16:48:09 <jjmarin> #info https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/MarketingForDevelopersAndDesigners
 182 16:48:26 <clown> jjmarin, this looks interesting.  I should read it more closely.
 183 16:49:20 <jjmarin> a11y is a unkown field and I think we need to provide some introductory documentation
 184 16:49:30 <joanie> #info Regarding the UX Hackfest, seeing as how it is before GUADEC and at Igalia, we should see if Piñeiro can attend.
 185 16:50:05 <joanie> #info Joanie might be able to attend the UX Hackfest but it depends on the outcome of the Board elections. (Meetings on the 24th if she is elected.)
 186 16:50:18 <jjmarin> GNOME 3 is design driven, and it seems the lastest designs are not producing accessible applications
 187 16:50:52 <joanie> (which is ironic in this, the Year of Accessibility for GNOME. ;) )
 188 16:51:09 <jjmarin> we need to stop this, because a11y as an afterthought doesn't work very well
 189 16:51:15 <joanie> +1
 190 16:51:17 <jjmarin> joanie: exactly :-)
 191 16:52:04 <clown> i started in a11y in 1996.  And the theme back then was "let's not bolt a11y on after the fact.  let's build it in from the start".
 192 16:52:20 <clown> plus ca change...
 193 16:52:41 <joanie> Yeah, I've been in the field for about that long as well.
 194 16:52:50 <joanie> And we say one thing, but do another. :(
 195 16:52:59 <jjmarin> for example, this documentation can also help the bug team
 196 16:53:15 <jjmarin> we need an Accessibility 101
 197 16:53:23 <clown> yes.  I somehow connects to joanie's triage issue.
 198 16:53:32 <clown> "It somehow links..."
 199 16:53:39 * joanie nods
 200 16:54:02 <joanie> #action Joanie will talk to Piñeiro to see if he can go to the UX Hackfest.
 201 16:54:30 <joanie> #action Team members should look over Juanjo's draft content.
 202 16:54:35 <joanie> other items?
 203 16:54:43 <joanie> (or comments or whatever?)
 204 16:54:47 <clown> Is this "misc" time?
 205 16:54:48 <jjmarin> nop
 206 16:54:54 <joanie> clown: almost
 207 16:54:57 <joanie> :)
 208 16:55:04 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
 209 16:55:06 <clown> although time is almost up...
 210 16:55:08 <joanie> clown: go for it
 211 16:55:32 <jjmarin> ok, for misc time, I think there is a GSoC migrating Evo to webkit
 212 16:55:54 <clown> #info there is a new working group at the W3C — the Independent UI Events group
 213 16:56:10 <joanie> jjmarin: let's let clown go first please
 214 16:56:24 <jjmarin> yes, sorry clow
 215 16:56:26 <jjmarin> clown
 216 16:56:44 <clown> #info the group is looking into adding high level events for web apps that cross cut different platforms (e.g. touch screens).
 217 16:56:59 <clown> #info there is also a desire to add "a11y events" at the same time
 218 16:57:38 <clown> #info currently I'm (Joseph) in the group as well as IBM, and Apple.
 219 16:57:58 <jjmarin> :-)
 220 16:57:59 <clown> #info they want to recruit more people.  I'm thinking another GNOME person or two would be good.
 221 16:58:13 <clown> #info http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
 222 16:58:18 <joanie> clown: Time commitment and is this an open group?
 223 16:58:23 * joanie looks
 224 16:58:36 <clown> #info plan is to have a 1 hour teleconference every other week.
 225 16:58:50 <clown> #info plus wiki and email discussion lis.
 226 16:59:06 <clown> s/discussion lis./discussion list./
 227 16:59:24 <joanie> #info Non-members have to apply as "invited experts".
 228 16:59:30 <clown> right.
 229 16:59:37 <clown> I'm an "invited expert"
 230 17:00:42 <joanie> So we have to apply to be invited. /me rolls her eyes
 231 17:00:42 <clown> to become an invited expert, one fills out a form.  you do have to agree with W3C patent policy.
 232 17:01:14 <clown> well,  the chair of the group will invite you (if you are interested), supplying the url to the application form.
 233 17:01:46 <clown> anyhow, something for you to consider.  if any are interested, let me know, and I can help with the invitation process.
 234 17:02:18 <joanie> #action Joanie will read over the http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/participation and talk to Piñeiro to see if this is something she can take on.
 235 17:02:29 <clown> cool!
 236 17:03:22 <joanie> so jjmarin your turn
 237 17:03:36 <joanie> please info stuff for efficiency/minutes
 238 17:04:10 * jjmarin searching,  a second
 239 17:04:25 <joanie> okay, while you are looking I've got a quick one
 240 17:04:38 <joanie> GNOME Foundation Board elections close soon
 241 17:04:52 <joanie> if you are a foundation member and have not voted, someone from our team is running
 242 17:04:59 <joanie> and would appreciate your vote
 243 17:05:19 <joanie> because many of our "a11y friends" on the board are not running this eyar
 244 17:05:21 <joanie> or year
 245 17:05:27 <joanie> (done)
 246 17:05:39 <jjmarin> +1 vote :-)
 247 17:05:41 <joanie> :)
 248 17:05:47 <joanie> anyhoo jjmarin's turn
 249 17:06:24 <jjmarin> I can't find the post of the guy working in Evolution webkit migration
 250 17:06:47 <jhernandez> joanie: you don't need to make propaganda here! :P
 251 17:07:00 <joanie> and it's a GSoC thing? I thought there was a RedHat guy from.... somewhere in Eastern Europe.... doing it
 252 17:07:12 <jhernandez> joanie: i thought the same
 253 17:07:20 <joanie> jhernandez: Where should I make propaganda?
 254 17:07:21 <joanie> ;)
 255 17:07:21 <jjmarin> ok, possibly you're right
 256 17:08:13 <jjmarin> the thing is ask him to check a11y in his progress
 257 17:08:20 <joanie> yup
 258 17:08:24 <jjmarin> ok
 259 17:08:38 <jhernandez> http://git.gnome.org/browse/evolution/log/?h=webkit
 260 17:08:40 <joanie> things should be way better as a result of the migration
 261 17:08:53 <joanie> as long as caret nav is in place for non-editable messages
 262 17:09:21 <joanie> I will have to redo the Orca script for Evolution, but this is a good thing since the script is old, bloated, and crap. Plus Evo is totally broken anyway.
 263 17:09:49 <joanie> so.... other misc time topics?
 264 17:09:59 <jjmarin> nop
 265 17:10:17 * joanie raises gavel and looks for fingers
 266 17:10:34 <jjmarin> :-)
 267 17:10:42 <joanie> #endmeeting