1 16:13:07 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 16:13:07 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu May 10 16:13:07 2012 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 16:13:07 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 16:13:14 <joanie> #topic Reminders
   5 16:13:21 <joanie> #info Draft notes for Q1's are due tomorrow.
   6 16:13:33 <joanie> #info Joanie and Piñeiro are the most notable people still owing notes.
   7 16:13:42 <joanie> #info But our team is not the only one owing a report to the Marketing Team. ;)
   8 16:13:55 <joanie> mgorse: do you have any notes for at-spi2?
   9 16:14:46 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q1
  10 16:15:01 <mgorse> joanie: Do you think we need more detail than what I think I added to the wiki? Ie, bug fixes and better handling of applications that aren't responsive
  11 16:15:17 <joanie> mgorse: oops I didn't see that. Lemme look again
  12 16:15:34 <joanie> mgorse: aha. Never mind
  13 16:15:39 <joanie> sorry and thanks!!
  14 16:15:48 <mgorse> ok
  15 16:15:53 <joanie> other things to say about Q1's?
  16 16:16:35 <joanie> #info Joanie created a wiki page for the Open Help Conference: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/AccessibleHelp
  17 16:16:42 <joanie> #info We still need to provide actual information for Shaun.
  18 16:16:57 <joanie> comments on that reminder?
  19 16:17:23 * joanie assumes that is a no. :)
  20 16:17:36 * joanie encourages people to fill out that page.
  21 16:17:43 <joanie> #topic GNOME 3.6
  22 16:17:51 <joanie> I've got a bunch of info's for this one
  23 16:17:56 <joanie> so please bear with me
  24 16:18:02 <joanie> #info William Jon McCann pinged some of us about gnome-shell's universal access menu and dialog.
  25 16:18:16 <joanie> #info His goals include: Bringing these two more into alignment; ensuring that what's provided/exposed is relevant to users and easy to find; having a more consistent, and design-friendly UI -- which fits on small screens; etc.
  26 16:18:19 * clown sits back, and sips his coffee while perusing infos.
  27 16:18:29 * joanie smiles
  28 16:18:31 <joanie> #info Examples:
  29 16:18:40 <joanie> #info * The Typing page has too many items (thus doesn't fit on small screens and not approachable for users with cognitive disabilities).
  30 16:18:51 <joanie> #info * The Seeing page looks odd with the larger font (some people report it as a bug rather than viewing it as a feature).
  31 16:19:00 <joanie> #info * Do we really need/view a low-contrast theme and small text as "accessibility features"?
  32 16:19:09 <joanie> #info Jon has already been reworking things. From what he described, the changes are reasonable:
  33 16:19:17 <joanie> #info * He reworked the Typing page keeping most of the elements other than the 'type here to test settings' widget.
  34 16:19:26 <joanie> #info * Removing the small text and low contrast choices as accessibility options seems to make sense.
  35 16:19:35 <joanie> #info * Joseph's new inverse video setting should be in gnome-shell's menu.
  36 16:19:45 <joanie> #info * Orca's settings should be configurable via the gnome-control-center.
  37 16:19:56 * joanie pauses, smiles, and adds one more
  38 16:20:03 <joanie> s/smiles/smirks/
  39 16:20:08 <joanie> #info Jon would like info on numbers of users with disabilities. He is happy with general figures (as opposed to Linux or GNOME specific ones).
  40 16:20:12 <joanie> (done)
  41 16:20:16 * joanie yields the floor
  42 16:21:06 <clown> re:  new inverse video being right up front in the a11y menu — neat!
  43 16:21:13 * joanie smiles
  44 16:21:23 <joanie> Jon and I chatted quite a bit about that
  45 16:21:27 <clown> but, it should also be in the zoom options control panel (or nearby).
  46 16:21:32 <API> clown, so you are ok with nuking low inverse and old inverse theme?
  47 16:21:32 <joanie> yup
  48 16:21:35 * clown thanks joanie
  49 16:21:44 <API> sorry
  50 16:21:49 <API> low contrast and old inverse
  51 16:21:58 <clown> API, I have no opinion — didn't even know they were there.
  52 16:22:02 <joanie> heh
  53 16:22:16 <joanie> the navy blue thing is blek
  54 16:22:22 <clown> re:  large text in seeing panel — that's pretty standard.
  55 16:22:26 <API> clown, ok lets reformulate the question
  56 16:22:44 <API> do you think that what inverse video effect do does what a inverse theme could do?
  57 16:22:45 <clown> the analgous Mac dialog is the same - big text.
  58 16:23:08 <clown> API, let me have a look at the inverse theme control panel.
  59 16:24:01 * joanie thinks the inverse video theme combined with the high contrast theme achieves the same benefits, but better
  60 16:24:02 <clown> Okay, that's equivalent to "high contrast mode" on Windows.
  61 16:24:16 <joanie> ugh
  62 16:24:20 <joanie> inverse video feature
  63 16:24:46 <clown> my bad
  64 16:24:54 <joanie> no I meant my bad
  65 16:24:58 <joanie> 16:24:00  >>> joanie thinks the inverse video theme combined with the high contrast theme achieves the same  benefits, but better
  66 16:25:06 <clown> you're right, Joanie, it's a high contrast + inverse.
  67 16:25:26 <joanie> in other words, if you are photophobic you can just use the new inverse brightness
  68 16:25:31 <clown> does the theme remove colours?
  69 16:25:38 <joanie> yeah
  70 16:25:55 <joanie> so if you want colors you invert brightness but do not use high contrast
  71 16:25:56 <clown> in that case, the new inverse lightness is better since it keeps the colours.
  72 16:26:00 <joanie> yup
  73 16:26:12 <joanie> but it can be combined with the current (non-reversed) high contrast
  74 16:26:22 <joanie> so it's the navy blue thing we're talking about removing
  75 16:26:47 <clown> but, this is where you want expert advice from, for lack of a better term, occupational therapists.
  76 16:27:34 <clown> are there significant numbers of users who want the kind of resutl given by the inverse hight contrast theme?  Or does the inverse lightness handle those users too?
  77 16:27:46 <clown> I dunno.  I'm a programmer, Jim,
  78 16:28:10 <joanie> clown: In my personal experience....
  79 16:28:29 <joanie> there are users with low vision who need both inverse colors and high contrast
  80 16:28:51 <joanie> but that can be acheived better via the non-inverse high contrast we have plus your inverse brightness feature
  81 16:29:05 <joanie> better == bettter than the navy blue theme
  82 16:29:16 <joanie> which as an aside doesn't impact all apps
  83 16:29:45 <joanie> there are also users who need the inverse brightness but not the overall high contrast
  84 16:29:47 <clown> okay.
  85 16:29:52 <clown> I do know the web a11y designers here are developing a number of themes for text, such as yellon-on-black, and green-on-black, and white-on-black, and yellow-on-blue, etc.  Then offereing them as display options for web pages.
  86 16:29:53 <joanie> so your new feature addresses that as well
  87 16:30:49 <joanie> and they could choose the equivalent of the non-reversed high-contrast if needed
  88 16:30:52 <joanie> on that page
  89 16:31:07 <joanie> and use your feature combined with that to achieve the reverse
  90 16:31:24 <clown> what does "that as well" refer to in "so your new feature addresses that as well"?
  91 16:31:45 <joanie> 16:29:45 <joanie> there are also users who need the inverse brightness but not the overall high contrast
  92 16:32:33 <joanie> having said that, your new feature combined with the existing high contrast (non-negative) options we and web content creators provide, imho cover the bases nicely
  93 16:32:40 <joanie> (so way to go, clown!) :)
  94 16:33:08 <joanie> anyhoo, I'm just me, so if you'd like to get OT feedback that would be great
  95 16:33:09 <clown> I think I see.  Well, to answer the original question, I have no objection to removing the high contrast + inverse theme.
  96 16:33:41 <joanie> so other thoughts on this matter?
  97 16:34:09 <joanie> if not, I would like to reiterate the last of my info's and add an action item for us all
  98 16:34:34 <joanie> "Jon would like info on numbers of users with disabilities. He is happy with general figures (as opposed to Linux or GNOME specific ones)."
  99 16:34:45 <joanie> #action Team members with knowledge of/access to the requested figures should provide them.
 100 16:35:09 <joanie> clown: is this something you/your organization/the OTs/etc. can readily provide??
 101 16:35:20 <clown> possibly, I'll ask around.
 102 16:35:28 <joanie> yay! thank you. :)
 103 16:35:36 <clown> but, I have one worry:  a11y isn't a popularity contest.
 104 16:35:40 <joanie> I know
 105 16:35:50 <clown> suppose the numbers are low — is that a justifcation to exclude the feature?
 106 16:36:09 <joanie> no but I think possibly move it down on the a11y menu in gnome-shell
 107 16:36:18 <clown> actually, this is the kind of thing that Peter Korn keeps in this back pocket.
 108 16:36:22 <joanie> i.e. I think he wants the things users need the most near the top
 109 16:36:29 <clown> ah, that makes sense.
 110 16:36:58 <joanie> so... moving on?
 111 16:37:40 <clown> any objection to my asking this question of Peter Korn?
 112 16:37:46 <joanie> nope
 113 16:37:48 <joanie> please do
 114 16:38:08 <clown> okay.  let me add an action (as a way of reminding myself).
 115 16:38:45 <clown> #action Joseph to email Jan and Peter about statistics regarding users with disabilities.
 116 16:38:47 <clown> (done).
 117 16:38:57 <joanie> thanks
 118 16:39:23 <joanie> API as a subtopic to the GNOME 3.6 topic we have "Last Saturday's R-T meeting". Wasn't sure if you had interesting stuff to say on that or not.
 119 16:39:29 <joanie> but if you do, please do. :)
 120 16:39:36 <API> k
 121 16:39:45 <API> #subtopic R-T meeting
 122 16:39:50 <API> yes I know
 123 16:39:57 <API> #subtopic doesnt' exists
 124 16:39:59 <API> anyway
 125 16:40:21 <API> #info we had a RT meeting last saturday
 126 16:40:34 <API> #info minutes here:  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2012-May/msg00004.html
 127 16:41:18 <API> #info as we had a lot of points on the meeting we didn't talk too much, or at least in detail about "things that didn't well 100% good on 3.4 "
 128 16:41:33 <API> #info so on the review I just mentioned that a11y support has a lot of positive feedback
 129 16:41:42 <API> anyway, clown thanks for your summary ;)
 130 16:41:58 <clown> wlcm, API, but I still think it was a bit rambly.
 131 16:42:13 <API> #info About features: a11y by default accepted, as it doesn't seems a big change
 132 16:42:21 <joanie> yay
 133 16:42:45 <API> #info clown features doesn't require to reapprove, I just mentioned that clown is working on them, and that he already move the stuff to 3.5 cycle page
 134 16:42:57 <API> and done
 135 16:43:00 <API> questions, doubts=?
 136 16:43:10 * joanie chuckles at "clown features"
 137 16:43:12 <clown> "clown features"  — red nose?
 138 16:43:26 <joanie> juggling documentation
 139 16:43:39 <joanie> circus music audio themes
 140 16:43:42 * clown likes the new lingo.
 141 16:43:58 * clown we have a11y features *and* clown features.
 142 16:44:09 <joanie> :)
 143 16:44:17 <joanie> oops, I have to behave since I am in charge today
 144 16:44:25 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 145 16:44:32 <joanie> #info Juanjo could not make it to today's meeting.
 146 16:44:37 <joanie> #info According to the Friends of GNOME bar: "$15,297 - only $4,703 to go!"
 147 16:44:45 <joanie> and that's all I know about marketing and fundraising
 148 16:44:48 <joanie> other updates?
 149 16:46:22 <joanie> I'm guessing that is a 'no'
 150 16:46:32 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
 151 16:46:42 * joanie yields the floor
 152 16:47:16 <clown> reading back in the log…
 153 16:47:41 <clown> I started to say something about large text in the seeing panel of the universal access settings.
 154 16:47:47 <joanie> oh yeah
 155 16:47:48 <clown> do they really want to remove it?
 156 16:47:54 <joanie> I think so
 157 16:47:59 <joanie> and I am not sure that's such a problem
 158 16:48:00 <joanie> IF
 159 16:48:16 <joanie> at the very top of the accessibility menu we have the V.I. related switches
 160 16:48:34 <joanie> in other words, how is the user who needs that big text going to get into that dialog in the first place?
 161 16:48:57 <joanie> if they do it via the accessibility menu, they'll find zoom and friends
 162 16:49:00 <clown> well, yeah, that's the boot-strapping catch-22.
 163 16:49:01 <joanie> and zoom in
 164 16:49:07 <joanie> indeed
 165 16:49:23 <joanie> but what I mean is if they find zoom at the top and enable it
 166 16:49:36 <joanie> now they can read the big text in the dialog without it being big
 167 16:49:47 <clown> makes sense actually.
 168 16:49:49 <joanie> and the other issue is that it's still not "big enough" for some people
 169 16:49:56 <joanie> so where do you draw the line?
 170 16:49:56 <clown> right.
 171 16:50:08 <clown> cloud4all :-)
 172 16:50:13 <joanie> heh
 173 16:50:37 <clown> stick in your USB key, and the whole desktop is magically transformed to your needs.
 174 16:50:52 <joanie> so we have a11y, clowns, and magic
 175 16:50:58 <joanie> it's quite thrilling
 176 16:51:06 <clown> we should make a movie.
 177 16:51:58 <clown> anyhow, do we want to info any of the above?
 178 16:52:07 <joanie> we could
 179 16:52:24 <joanie> are you volunteering or asking me to do it?
 180 16:52:35 <clown> I'll do it.
 181 16:52:40 <joanie> k thanks
 182 16:52:59 <clown> irc://irc.gnome.org:6667/#topic GNOME 3.6
 183 16:53:03 <clown> ???
 184 16:53:08 <clown> #topic GNOME 3.6
 185 16:53:44 <clown> #info discussion of removing large text from the "seeing" panel of the universal settings dialog
 186 16:54:27 <clown> #info problems are that it looks odd, doesn't really work since it's too local, and may not be big enough for some users.
 187 16:55:08 <clown> #info instead, put these settings into the a11y menu, to make them easier to get at.
 188 16:55:20 <clown> does that cover it?
 189 16:55:25 <joanie> I think so
 190 16:55:31 <joanie> thanks again!
 191 16:55:33 <clown> #topic Miscellaneous.
 192 16:55:41 <clown> wlcm
 193 16:56:17 <joanie> so... any other misc items?
 194 16:57:13 <clown> any point to look over the action items?
 195 16:57:20 <clown> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Action_Items
 196 16:57:52 <joanie> we could
 197 16:57:57 <joanie> I've not done mine
 198 16:58:12 <joanie> bnitz is not here
 199 16:58:18 <joanie> Juanjo is not here
 200 16:58:19 <clown> i don't seem to have any new ones.
 201 16:58:33 <joanie> is the existing one you have still valid?
 202 16:58:45 <clown> that old one is what I am working on (sometimes).
 203 16:58:51 <joanie> :)
 204 16:58:58 <joanie> API has one: Update the AtkObject:children-changed documentation, as this could be also used on ATK implementors.
 205 16:59:00 <clown> part of the focus tracking work.
 206 16:59:03 <joanie> API status change?
 207 16:59:07 * joanie nods at clown
 208 16:59:11 <API> joanie, still pending
 209 16:59:15 <joanie> k
 210 16:59:20 <joanie> mgorse: you have three action items
 211 16:59:29 <joanie> 1. Add the keyword 'accessibility' to gnome core module bugs he's filed (e.g. evolution and nautilus) which are still open.
 212 16:59:36 <joanie> 2. File a bug regarding GAIL treeview children / children-changed signals, attach a patch, and call for testers.
 213 16:59:41 <joanie> 3. Modify libatspi to fill in the index when possible (ie, when it has the child cached, which it will not for trees with MANAGES_DESCENDANTS for instance)
 214 16:59:47 <joanie> status update mgorse?
 215 17:00:04 <mgorse> Oops. I think those are all still pending. Sorry.
 216 17:00:13 <joanie> mgorse: no worries. mine are as well
 217 17:00:19 <joanie> and so are everyone else's
 218 17:00:21 * joanie smiles
 219 17:00:30 <joanie> #info Joseph suggested an action item review
 220 17:00:46 <joanie> #info Having completed this review during the meeting, the conclusion is that all pending items are still pending.
 221 17:01:10 <joanie> In our defense, we don't have a crazy-long list of pending AIs
 222 17:01:23 <joanie> those on the Foundation Board seem to hang out for years and years
 223 17:01:30 <joanie> and grow like the Blob
 224 17:01:41 * joanie strikes the last comments from the log
 225 17:01:42 <joanie> ;)
 226 17:01:52 <joanie> so.... anything else?
 227 17:01:59 * joanie looks around for the gavel
 228 17:02:03 <clown> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blob
 229 17:02:22 <joanie> so related to that, remember how the movie ended
 230 17:02:26 <joanie> way back in the 50s?
 231 17:02:32 <joanie> (I think it was the 50s)
 232 17:02:39 <clown> I haven't seen it.
 233 17:02:43 <joanie> aha
 234 17:02:53 <joanie> turns out being frozen stops it
 235 17:02:59 <joanie> so they put it somewhere like the north pole
 236 17:03:04 <clown> wow.  it cost 110K to make, and it made 4 million.
 237 17:03:18 <joanie> and the comment is something like things will be fine as long as the north pole remains frozen
 238 17:03:26 <clown> oh no, global warming!
 239 17:03:28 <joanie> which, in retrospect, means we are soon to be doomed
 240 17:03:31 <clown> I smell a sequal.
 241 17:03:35 <joanie> heh
 242 17:03:37 <clown> "sequel".
 243 17:03:41 <joanie> on that note....
 244 17:03:43 <joanie> #endmeeting