16:13:07 <joanie> #startmeeting
16:13:07 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu May 10 16:13:07 2012 CET.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:13:07 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:13:14 <joanie> #topic Reminders
16:13:21 <joanie> #info Draft notes for Q1's are due tomorrow.
16:13:33 <joanie> #info Joanie and Piñeiro are the most notable people still owing notes.
16:13:42 <joanie> #info But our team is not the only one owing a report to the Marketing Team. ;)
16:13:55 <joanie> mgorse: do you have any notes for at-spi2?
16:14:46 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2012/Q1
16:15:01 <mgorse> joanie: Do you think we need more detail than what I think I added to the wiki? Ie, bug fixes and better handling of applications that aren't responsive
16:15:17 <joanie> mgorse: oops I didn't see that. Lemme look again
16:15:34 <joanie> mgorse: aha. Never mind
16:15:39 <joanie> sorry and thanks!!
16:15:48 <mgorse> ok
16:15:53 <joanie> other things to say about Q1's?
16:16:35 <joanie> #info Joanie created a wiki page for the Open Help Conference: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/AccessibleHelp
16:16:42 <joanie> #info We still need to provide actual information for Shaun.
16:16:57 <joanie> comments on that reminder?
16:17:23 * joanie assumes that is a no. :)
16:17:36 * joanie encourages people to fill out that page.
16:17:43 <joanie> #topic GNOME 3.6
16:17:51 <joanie> I've got a bunch of info's for this one
16:17:56 <joanie> so please bear with me
16:18:02 <joanie> #info William Jon McCann pinged some of us about gnome-shell's universal access menu and dialog.
16:18:16 <joanie> #info His goals include: Bringing these two more into alignment; ensuring that what's provided/exposed is relevant to users and easy to find; having a more consistent, and design-friendly UI -- which fits on small screens; etc.
16:18:19 * clown sits back, and sips his coffee while perusing infos.
16:18:29 * joanie smiles
16:18:31 <joanie> #info Examples:
16:18:40 <joanie> #info * The Typing page has too many items (thus doesn't fit on small screens and not approachable for users with cognitive disabilities).
16:18:51 <joanie> #info * The Seeing page looks odd with the larger font (some people report it as a bug rather than viewing it as a feature).
16:19:00 <joanie> #info * Do we really need/view a low-contrast theme and small text as "accessibility features"?
16:19:09 <joanie> #info Jon has already been reworking things. From what he described, the changes are reasonable:
16:19:17 <joanie> #info * He reworked the Typing page keeping most of the elements other than the 'type here to test settings' widget.
16:19:26 <joanie> #info * Removing the small text and low contrast choices as accessibility options seems to make sense.
16:19:35 <joanie> #info * Joseph's new inverse video setting should be in gnome-shell's menu.
16:19:45 <joanie> #info * Orca's settings should be configurable via the gnome-control-center.
16:19:56 * joanie pauses, smiles, and adds one more
16:20:03 <joanie> s/smiles/smirks/
16:20:08 <joanie> #info Jon would like info on numbers of users with disabilities. He is happy with general figures (as opposed to Linux or GNOME specific ones).
16:20:12 <joanie> (done)
16:20:16 * joanie yields the floor
16:21:06 <clown> re:  new inverse video being right up front in the a11y menu — neat!
16:21:13 * joanie smiles
16:21:23 <joanie> Jon and I chatted quite a bit about that
16:21:27 <clown> but, it should also be in the zoom options control panel (or nearby).
16:21:32 <API> clown, so you are ok with nuking low inverse and old inverse theme?
16:21:32 <joanie> yup
16:21:35 * clown thanks joanie
16:21:44 <API> sorry
16:21:49 <API> low contrast and old inverse
16:21:58 <clown> API, I have no opinion — didn't even know they were there.
16:22:02 <joanie> heh
16:22:16 <joanie> the navy blue thing is blek
16:22:22 <clown> re:  large text in seeing panel — that's pretty standard.
16:22:26 <API> clown, ok lets reformulate the question
16:22:44 <API> do you think that what inverse video effect do does what a inverse theme could do?
16:22:45 <clown> the analgous Mac dialog is the same - big text.
16:23:08 <clown> API, let me have a look at the inverse theme control panel.
16:24:01 * joanie thinks the inverse video theme combined with the high contrast theme achieves the same benefits, but better
16:24:02 <clown> Okay, that's equivalent to "high contrast mode" on Windows.
16:24:16 <joanie> ugh
16:24:20 <joanie> inverse video feature
16:24:46 <clown> my bad
16:24:54 <joanie> no I meant my bad
16:24:58 <joanie> 16:24:00  >>> joanie thinks the inverse video theme combined with the high contrast theme achieves the same  benefits, but better
16:25:06 <clown> you're right, Joanie, it's a high contrast + inverse.
16:25:26 <joanie> in other words, if you are photophobic you can just use the new inverse brightness
16:25:31 <clown> does the theme remove colours?
16:25:38 <joanie> yeah
16:25:55 <joanie> so if you want colors you invert brightness but do not use high contrast
16:25:56 <clown> in that case, the new inverse lightness is better since it keeps the colours.
16:26:00 <joanie> yup
16:26:12 <joanie> but it can be combined with the current (non-reversed) high contrast
16:26:22 <joanie> so it's the navy blue thing we're talking about removing
16:26:47 <clown> but, this is where you want expert advice from, for lack of a better term, occupational therapists.
16:27:34 <clown> are there significant numbers of users who want the kind of resutl given by the inverse hight contrast theme?  Or does the inverse lightness handle those users too?
16:27:46 <clown> I dunno.  I'm a programmer, Jim,
16:28:10 <joanie> clown: In my personal experience....
16:28:29 <joanie> there are users with low vision who need both inverse colors and high contrast
16:28:51 <joanie> but that can be acheived better via the non-inverse high contrast we have plus your inverse brightness feature
16:29:05 <joanie> better == bettter than the navy blue theme
16:29:16 <joanie> which as an aside doesn't impact all apps
16:29:45 <joanie> there are also users who need the inverse brightness but not the overall high contrast
16:29:47 <clown> okay.
16:29:52 <clown> I do know the web a11y designers here are developing a number of themes for text, such as yellon-on-black, and green-on-black, and white-on-black, and yellow-on-blue, etc.  Then offereing them as display options for web pages.
16:29:53 <joanie> so your new feature addresses that as well
16:30:49 <joanie> and they could choose the equivalent of the non-reversed high-contrast if needed
16:30:52 <joanie> on that page
16:31:07 <joanie> and use your feature combined with that to achieve the reverse
16:31:24 <clown> what does "that as well" refer to in "so your new feature addresses that as well"?
16:31:45 <joanie> 16:29:45 <joanie> there are also users who need the inverse brightness but not the overall high contrast
16:32:33 <joanie> having said that, your new feature combined with the existing high contrast (non-negative) options we and web content creators provide, imho cover the bases nicely
16:32:40 <joanie> (so way to go, clown!) :)
16:33:08 <joanie> anyhoo, I'm just me, so if you'd like to get OT feedback that would be great
16:33:09 <clown> I think I see.  Well, to answer the original question, I have no objection to removing the high contrast + inverse theme.
16:33:41 <joanie> so other thoughts on this matter?
16:34:09 <joanie> if not, I would like to reiterate the last of my info's and add an action item for us all
16:34:34 <joanie> "Jon would like info on numbers of users with disabilities. He is happy with general figures (as opposed to Linux or GNOME specific ones)."
16:34:45 <joanie> #action Team members with knowledge of/access to the requested figures should provide them.
16:35:09 <joanie> clown: is this something you/your organization/the OTs/etc. can readily provide??
16:35:20 <clown> possibly, I'll ask around.
16:35:28 <joanie> yay! thank you. :)
16:35:36 <clown> but, I have one worry:  a11y isn't a popularity contest.
16:35:40 <joanie> I know
16:35:50 <clown> suppose the numbers are low — is that a justifcation to exclude the feature?
16:36:09 <joanie> no but I think possibly move it down on the a11y menu in gnome-shell
16:36:18 <clown> actually, this is the kind of thing that Peter Korn keeps in this back pocket.
16:36:22 <joanie> i.e. I think he wants the things users need the most near the top
16:36:29 <clown> ah, that makes sense.
16:36:58 <joanie> so... moving on?
16:37:40 <clown> any objection to my asking this question of Peter Korn?
16:37:46 <joanie> nope
16:37:48 <joanie> please do
16:38:08 <clown> okay.  let me add an action (as a way of reminding myself).
16:38:45 <clown> #action Joseph to email Jan and Peter about statistics regarding users with disabilities.
16:38:47 <clown> (done).
16:38:57 <joanie> thanks
16:39:23 <joanie> API as a subtopic to the GNOME 3.6 topic we have "Last Saturday's R-T meeting". Wasn't sure if you had interesting stuff to say on that or not.
16:39:29 <joanie> but if you do, please do. :)
16:39:36 <API> k
16:39:45 <API> #subtopic R-T meeting
16:39:50 <API> yes I know
16:39:57 <API> #subtopic doesnt' exists
16:39:59 <API> anyway
16:40:21 <API> #info we had a RT meeting last saturday
16:40:34 <API> #info minutes here:  https://mail.gnome.org/archives/release-team/2012-May/msg00004.html
16:41:18 <API> #info as we had a lot of points on the meeting we didn't talk too much, or at least in detail about "things that didn't well 100% good on 3.4 "
16:41:33 <API> #info so on the review I just mentioned that a11y support has a lot of positive feedback
16:41:42 <API> anyway, clown thanks for your summary ;)
16:41:58 <clown> wlcm, API, but I still think it was a bit rambly.
16:42:13 <API> #info About features: a11y by default accepted, as it doesn't seems a big change
16:42:21 <joanie> yay
16:42:45 <API> #info clown features doesn't require to reapprove, I just mentioned that clown is working on them, and that he already move the stuff to 3.5 cycle page
16:42:57 <API> and done
16:43:00 <API> questions, doubts=?
16:43:10 * joanie chuckles at "clown features"
16:43:12 <clown> "clown features"  — red nose?
16:43:26 <joanie> juggling documentation
16:43:39 <joanie> circus music audio themes
16:43:42 * clown likes the new lingo.
16:43:58 * clown we have a11y features *and* clown features.
16:44:09 <joanie> :)
16:44:17 <joanie> oops, I have to behave since I am in charge today
16:44:25 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
16:44:32 <joanie> #info Juanjo could not make it to today's meeting.
16:44:37 <joanie> #info According to the Friends of GNOME bar: "$15,297 - only $4,703 to go!"
16:44:45 <joanie> and that's all I know about marketing and fundraising
16:44:48 <joanie> other updates?
16:46:22 <joanie> I'm guessing that is a 'no'
16:46:32 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
16:46:42 * joanie yields the floor
16:47:16 <clown> reading back in the log…
16:47:41 <clown> I started to say something about large text in the seeing panel of the universal access settings.
16:47:47 <joanie> oh yeah
16:47:48 <clown> do they really want to remove it?
16:47:54 <joanie> I think so
16:47:59 <joanie> and I am not sure that's such a problem
16:48:00 <joanie> IF
16:48:16 <joanie> at the very top of the accessibility menu we have the V.I. related switches
16:48:34 <joanie> in other words, how is the user who needs that big text going to get into that dialog in the first place?
16:48:57 <joanie> if they do it via the accessibility menu, they'll find zoom and friends
16:49:00 <clown> well, yeah, that's the boot-strapping catch-22.
16:49:01 <joanie> and zoom in
16:49:07 <joanie> indeed
16:49:23 <joanie> but what I mean is if they find zoom at the top and enable it
16:49:36 <joanie> now they can read the big text in the dialog without it being big
16:49:47 <clown> makes sense actually.
16:49:49 <joanie> and the other issue is that it's still not "big enough" for some people
16:49:56 <joanie> so where do you draw the line?
16:49:56 <clown> right.
16:50:08 <clown> cloud4all :-)
16:50:13 <joanie> heh
16:50:37 <clown> stick in your USB key, and the whole desktop is magically transformed to your needs.
16:50:52 <joanie> so we have a11y, clowns, and magic
16:50:58 <joanie> it's quite thrilling
16:51:06 <clown> we should make a movie.
16:51:58 <clown> anyhow, do we want to info any of the above?
16:52:07 <joanie> we could
16:52:24 <joanie> are you volunteering or asking me to do it?
16:52:35 <clown> I'll do it.
16:52:40 <joanie> k thanks
16:52:59 <clown> irc://irc.gnome.org:6667/#topic GNOME 3.6
16:53:03 <clown> ???
16:53:08 <clown> #topic GNOME 3.6
16:53:44 <clown> #info discussion of removing large text from the "seeing" panel of the universal settings dialog
16:54:27 <clown> #info problems are that it looks odd, doesn't really work since it's too local, and may not be big enough for some users.
16:55:08 <clown> #info instead, put these settings into the a11y menu, to make them easier to get at.
16:55:20 <clown> does that cover it?
16:55:25 <joanie> I think so
16:55:31 <joanie> thanks again!
16:55:33 <clown> #topic Miscellaneous.
16:55:41 <clown> wlcm
16:56:17 <joanie> so... any other misc items?
16:57:13 <clown> any point to look over the action items?
16:57:20 <clown> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Action_Items
16:57:52 <joanie> we could
16:57:57 <joanie> I've not done mine
16:58:12 <joanie> bnitz is not here
16:58:18 <joanie> Juanjo is not here
16:58:19 <clown> i don't seem to have any new ones.
16:58:33 <joanie> is the existing one you have still valid?
16:58:45 <clown> that old one is what I am working on (sometimes).
16:58:51 <joanie> :)
16:58:58 <joanie> API has one: Update the AtkObject:children-changed documentation, as this could be also used on ATK implementors.
16:59:00 <clown> part of the focus tracking work.
16:59:03 <joanie> API status change?
16:59:07 * joanie nods at clown
16:59:11 <API> joanie, still pending
16:59:15 <joanie> k
16:59:20 <joanie> mgorse: you have three action items
16:59:29 <joanie> 1. Add the keyword 'accessibility' to gnome core module bugs he's filed (e.g. evolution and nautilus) which are still open.
16:59:36 <joanie> 2. File a bug regarding GAIL treeview children / children-changed signals, attach a patch, and call for testers.
16:59:41 <joanie> 3. Modify libatspi to fill in the index when possible (ie, when it has the child cached, which it will not for trees with MANAGES_DESCENDANTS for instance)
16:59:47 <joanie> status update mgorse?
17:00:04 <mgorse> Oops. I think those are all still pending. Sorry.
17:00:13 <joanie> mgorse: no worries. mine are as well
17:00:19 <joanie> and so are everyone else's
17:00:21 * joanie smiles
17:00:30 <joanie> #info Joseph suggested an action item review
17:00:46 <joanie> #info Having completed this review during the meeting, the conclusion is that all pending items are still pending.
17:01:10 <joanie> In our defense, we don't have a crazy-long list of pending AIs
17:01:23 <joanie> those on the Foundation Board seem to hang out for years and years
17:01:30 <joanie> and grow like the Blob
17:01:41 * joanie strikes the last comments from the log
17:01:42 <joanie> ;)
17:01:52 <joanie> so.... anything else?
17:01:59 * joanie looks around for the gavel
17:02:03 <clown> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blob
17:02:22 <joanie> so related to that, remember how the movie ended
17:02:26 <joanie> way back in the 50s?
17:02:32 <joanie> (I think it was the 50s)
17:02:39 <clown> I haven't seen it.
17:02:43 <joanie> aha
17:02:53 <joanie> turns out being frozen stops it
17:02:59 <joanie> so they put it somewhere like the north pole
17:03:04 <clown> wow.  it cost 110K to make, and it made 4 million.
17:03:18 <joanie> and the comment is something like things will be fine as long as the north pole remains frozen
17:03:26 <clown> oh no, global warming!
17:03:28 <joanie> which, in retrospect, means we are soon to be doomed
17:03:31 <clown> I smell a sequal.
17:03:35 <joanie> heh
17:03:37 <clown> "sequel".
17:03:41 <joanie> on that note....
17:03:43 <joanie> #endmeeting