1 15:05:17 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 15:05:17 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Mar 29 15:05:17 2012 UTC.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 15:05:17 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 15:05:30 <joanie> #info Uber-Fast Meeting Today
   5 15:05:33 <joanie> oops
   6 15:05:38 <joanie> #topic Uber-Fast Meeting Today
   7 15:05:41 * joanie is sick
   8 15:05:59 * clown makes some chicken soup for joanie
   9 15:06:12 <joanie> #info We do not have a quorum for a variety of reasons. But the only two topics involve people here. So we're having a quick meeting anyway.
  10 15:06:22 <joanie> #topic Outreach Program for Women
  11 15:06:30 * joanie gives floor to clown
  12 15:06:53 <clown> #info Joseph updated the a11y section of the OPW wiki page.
  13 15:07:02 <clown> #info:  http://live.gnome.org/GnomeLove/Mentors#line-27
  14 15:07:19 <joanie> thanks!!
  15 15:07:24 <clown> #info Marina made minor edits, and suggested that the GSOC page also be updated
  16 15:07:40 <clown> #info https://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode2012/Ideas#line-71
  17 15:07:57 <clown> #info and, the same was done for our (IDRC) local GSOC page
  18 15:08:06 <clown> #info http://wiki.atutor.ca/display/atutorwiki/Google+Summer+of+Code+2012#GoogleSummerofCode2012-1.WAIARIAAutomatedTesting(GNOMEProject)
  19 15:08:10 <clown> (done)
  20 15:08:17 <clown> and you're welcome
  21 15:09:19 <joanie> #info Seeing as how Joseph has been in touch with Marina, Piñeiro's "next step" of following up with Marina to inform her of these changes seems unnecessary.
  22 15:09:22 <joanie> :)
  23 15:09:34 <joanie> any questions from jjmarin about clown's report?
  24 15:09:55 <jjmarin> that is awesome is not a question
  25 15:10:00 <jjmarin> :-)
  26 15:10:01 <joanie> :)
  27 15:10:06 <clown> :-)
  28 15:10:11 <joanie> mgorse: we're wrapping up discussion of the OWP
  29 15:10:25 <clown> isn't it OPW?
  30 15:10:30 <clown> or is it WOP?
  31 15:10:31 <joanie> yeah
  32 15:10:32 <mgorse> okay, thanks. Sorry for coming in late.
  33 15:10:40 <joanie> I haven't gotten unsick in the past 5 minutes
  34 15:11:04 <joanie> mgorse: no worries, but it's a two-topic, four person meeting
  35 15:11:06 * joanie smiles
  36 15:11:21 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
  37 15:11:26 * joanie gives floor to jjmarin
  38 15:12:22 <jjmarin> #info We have added some info about some of the new a11y features in the GNOME 3.4 Release Notes
  39 15:13:13 <jjmarin> #info and in the FoG a11y campaign, we don't have an update this week, but less than the half is left
  40 15:14:09 <jjmarin> and Joanie and Karen gave an accessibility presentation in libreplanet conference, right ?
  41 15:14:19 <joanie> yeah
  42 15:14:24 <joanie> we were underprepared unfortunately
  43 15:14:37 <joanie> and my car got towed *right* before the preso
  44 15:14:40 <joanie> so we had to fetch it
  45 15:14:49 <joanie> basically, we could have been way better than we were.
  46 15:15:06 <joanie> and now, thanks to LibrePlanet, I have death flu
  47 15:15:28 <joanie> #info Joanie gave a good presentation two weekends ago at Northeast GNU/Linux Fest.
  48 15:15:31 <joanie> :)
  49 15:15:41 <jjmarin> :-)
  50 15:16:05 <joanie> Normally I give good presos
  51 15:16:11 <jjmarin> thanks for your presentation in the Northeast GNU/Linux Fest and in FluPlanet :-)
  52 15:16:13 <joanie> LibrePlanet is not my norm.
  53 15:17:11 <jjmarin> they are general conferences and people are not very receptive maybe ?
  54 15:17:16 <joanie> no
  55 15:17:19 <joanie> that's not what I mean
  56 15:17:27 <joanie> everyone was nice and interested
  57 15:17:41 <joanie> I (Karen and I) were not sufficiently prepared
  58 15:17:49 <joanie> slides got made mostly the night before
  59 15:17:57 <joanie> were to be finished up at lunch
  60 15:18:02 <joanie> my car got towed
  61 15:18:03 <clown> and you're car got towed just before — that would break my concentration.
  62 15:18:20 <joanie> we couldn't use the slides as subtle prompts because they were displayed above us
  63 15:18:23 <joanie> bla bla bla
  64 15:18:31 <joanie> I normally prepare presos weeks in advance
  65 15:18:49 <joanie> 1 week in advance with all talking points committed to memory *at the latest*
  66 15:19:08 <joanie> karen asked me to join her about a week before LibrePlanet
  67 15:19:10 * joanie shrugs
  68 15:20:00 <jjmarin> anywhere, even a suboptimal preso is good I think, and it's good enough under such circunstances :-)
  69 15:20:08 <joanie> heh
  70 15:20:17 <joanie> anyhoo, anything else on this front?
  71 15:20:27 <jjmarin> so, no more marketing things
  72 15:20:30 <jjmarin> yeah
  73 15:20:34 <joanie> k thanks jjmarin!
  74 15:20:47 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
  75 15:20:57 <joanie> I've got one silly aside finishing the previous conversation
  76 15:21:05 <clown> yes?
  77 15:21:14 <jjmarin> hmm
  78 15:21:25 <joanie> #info During LibrePlanet, Jonathan Nadeau (an Orca user) gave a presentation about Free Accessibility
  79 15:21:49 <joanie> #info As part of his presentation, he presented MouseTrap as a good example of GNOME A11y.
  80 15:22:07 <joanie> #info For the record, MouseTrap *was* cool, but was a student project and is now abandonware.
  81 15:22:27 <clown> time to un-abandon it?
  82 15:22:32 <joanie> #info Joanie chatted with Karen about what Joanie calls the "Google Summer of Code Problem."
  83 15:22:42 <joanie> #info We seriously need to do something in this regard.
  84 15:23:03 <joanie> clown: either that or mark it as such
  85 15:23:09 <joanie> people search for stuff and find it
  86 15:23:15 <joanie> an LWN writer did the same recently
  87 15:23:44 <joanie> I might be able to turn these sorts of things into HFOSS projects
  88 15:24:00 <joanie> but we need to get the maintainer(s)/author(s)/whatever(s) on board
  89 15:24:09 <joanie> either to help or to bless it
  90 15:24:21 <joanie> anyhoo, I'm done with misc stuff
  91 15:24:29 * joanie yields the floor
  92 15:24:34 <clown> I have one minor thing.
  93 15:25:05 <clown> #info Joseph sent a proposal to the a11y list about removing some methods from the magnifier DBus interface.
  94 15:25:21 <clown> #info specifically methods that are inconsistent with the relevant GSettings.
  95 15:25:36 <clown> #info http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-March/msg00026.html
  96 15:26:06 <clown> #info was asking if anyone objected to the proposed approach.
  97 15:26:37 <clown> #info Joseph got one reponse that was not posted to the list, and it was a minor objection.
  98 15:26:47 * clown looks up bugzilla
  99 15:27:01 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=669192
 100 15:27:01 <tota11y> 04Bug 669192: minor, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, D-Bus: org.gnome.Magnifier.setActive incomplete.
 101 15:27:22 <clown> #info Joseph is inclined to proceed since no real objections.
 102 15:27:31 <clown> opens floor to discussion
 103 15:28:32 <joanie> So what happens if we want to move to a desktop-environment-independent world?
 104 15:28:44 <joanie> are there any implications?
 105 15:28:56 <joanie> (if not, I'm fine with it but perhaps API should also weigh in)
 106 15:29:18 <clown> maybe…  If GSettings is not on that deskop, then you can't set any of your magnifier preferences.
 107 15:29:22 <clown> I think....
 108 15:29:43 <joanie> so I wonder if the thing to do is bring the dbus settings in line with your existing settings
 109 15:30:04 <clown> I actually mentioned that scenario to a co-worker, and he suggested that GSettings should be port that that desktop as the solution :-_
 110 15:30:06 <jjmarin> I don't understand why we should support two ways of changing the settings. It's not only one good enough ?
 111 15:30:27 <joanie> jjmarin: what about other desktop environments?
 112 15:30:42 <clown> joanie:  I think it's misleading to call them "dbus settings".  It's just an interface/method.
 113 15:30:54 <joanie> sorry clown. so noted
 114 15:31:01 <joanie> anyway
 115 15:31:07 <clown> rather, settings are settings, Dbus is interprocess communication.
 116 15:32:03 <joanie> my point is, rather than removing some methods from the interface because they are inconsistent with the relevant GSettings, would it make sense to modify the methods to make them consistent with the relevant GSettings?
 117 15:32:44 <clown> yes, another possiibililty is to leave the methods in Dbus, and the specific GS-mag implementation turns around and call GSettings.
 118 15:33:16 <clown> and that's okay since if you have GS, you must have GSettings.
 119 15:33:28 * joanie nods
 120 15:33:40 <clown> and, how the Dbus method is implemented is a black box.
 121 15:33:48 * joanie nods
 122 15:34:15 <clown> actually, I think it might go deeper in terms of turning on the magnifier — the JS code should make sure the state of the mag is consistent with the GSetting.
 123 15:35:09 <clown> however, the bug reporter thinks the above solution is the worst possible:  "3. Bind the DBus setting to the gsettings setting. *worse*"
 124 15:35:19 <joanie> i saw that
 125 15:35:45 <joanie> but I still am looking for the cross-desktop a11y future
 126 15:36:00 <joanie> if the proposed change is not relevant to that, fine
 127 15:36:25 <joanie> but if down the road there is some sort of global mag framework (or whatever you wish to call it) that exists at the freedesktop level
 128 15:36:35 <clown> yes, all the preferences work done at ISO, and IMS, and the Cloud4All are using *preferences* to configure things, and ignoring interprocess communication.
 129 15:37:24 <clown> specifically coming out of the Cloud4All work is a desire for a common x-platform preferences system.
 130 15:37:31 <joanie> yay
 131 15:37:42 <clown> and, they like GSettings.
 132 15:38:10 <joanie> rather than have a more desktop-agnostic one?
 133 15:38:13 <clown> beats the Windows registry, and is better than what Mac uses.  (I haven't seen any comments about KDE).
 134 15:38:35 <clown> they like the architecture of GSettings is probably the best way to put it.
 135 15:38:43 <joanie> :)
 136 15:38:47 <clown> set/get and event/listener based.
 137 15:39:40 <clown> they really like the live-update feature:  change a setting, and the app immediately shows the new setting.
 138 15:40:14 <jjmarin> +1
 139 15:40:42 <clown> anyhow, you've swung me back to not removing the Dbus methods, but fixing either the implementation or the mag itself to make it consistent.
 140 15:41:05 * clown wonders why he's gone around in circles like this for 3 years now...
 141 15:41:12 <joanie> :)
 142 15:41:41 <joanie> now that I'm out of the magnification business, I totally defer to you. I was merely wondering about the implications long term. bla bla bla.
 143 15:41:56 <clown> but I think I will wait until API weighs in (if he does).
 144 15:42:01 <joanie> ping him
 145 15:42:15 <clown> will do.
 146 15:42:18 <joanie> thanks
 147 15:42:36 <joanie> so.... anything else?
 148 15:42:39 <clown> #action Joseph to consult with API and magnifier DBus vs Gsettings issue.
 149 15:42:57 <clown> s/with API and/with API about/
 150 15:43:04 <clown> (done).
 151 15:44:02 * joanie raises the gavel
 152 15:44:08 <joanie> going once....
 153 15:44:12 * clown hides his fingers
 154 15:44:17 <joanie> going twice.....
 155 15:44:32 <joanie> #endmeeting