15:11:52 <API> #startmeeting
15:11:52 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Mar 15 15:11:52 2012 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:11:52 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:12:02 <API> #topic GNOME 3.4 Updates
15:12:10 <API> I claim my turn
15:12:24 <API> #info some ATK related patches were committed on GNOME Shell
15:12:33 <API> #info some others were reviewed and updated
15:12:59 <API> #info not sure if we would get all of them committed by this Monday
15:13:16 <API> #info probably ping dan winship on florian mullner about that
15:13:29 * API hopes to have written florian surname properly
15:13:30 <API> done
15:13:36 <API> next one?
15:13:40 <API> clown, mgorse joanie
15:13:46 <API> who wants to claim the meeting scepter?
15:13:52 <clown> i'll take it.
15:14:16 <clown> #info uploaded patch to GNOME Shell that integrates the Clutter brightness/contrast effect.
15:14:34 <clown> #info noted that it doesn't work, and conditions where it does work.
15:14:43 * clown get's url
15:15:03 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=639851#c21
15:15:03 <tota11y> 04Bug 639851: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Magnifier:  Add brightness and contrast functionality.
15:15:25 <clown> #info and updated the "current status" on the featurs page — http://live.gnome.org/ThreePointThree/Features/LightnessBrightnessContrastEffects#Current_Status
15:15:44 <clown> #info note that the relevant gesttings schema is marked for commitment.
15:15:58 <clown> done, questions?
15:16:16 <API> so possibilities to be integrated on 3.4
15:16:17 <API> ?
15:16:23 <API> I guess that for this monday will be complex
15:16:35 <API> so it would require a eventual code breeze break request
15:16:55 <clown> well, not unless the effect actually works in GNOME Shell.  And I'm still working on daignosing why.
15:17:13 <clown> that is, I wouldn't commit it in this state.
15:18:04 <API> well,
15:18:16 <API> in this case I guess that likely
15:18:19 <API> will be move to 3.6
15:18:26 <API> although lets not move it until then
15:18:33 <API> s/then/next meeting
15:18:49 <clown> makes sense.
15:18:53 <API> anything else? clown ? more questions from others?
15:19:09 <clown> not from me.
15:19:14 <jjmarin> a second
15:19:41 <API> jjmarin, ?
15:20:03 <jjmarin> so when we have a definitive answer about the inclusion in gnome 3.4
15:20:15 <jjmarin> My question is because the release notes
15:20:59 <jjmarin> we are asked to write the a11y release notes asap
15:21:13 <API> jjmarin, well we need to start some kind of draft
15:21:21 <API> so we can start with the list of things
15:21:24 <API> that we have
15:21:25 <clown> jjmarin:  the release notes have a bullet under Clutter for the b/c effect.  But not as a function of the magnifier.
15:21:28 <jjmarin> in fact they want to have it for the beginning of the next week
15:21:51 <clown> and, that effect is part of Clutter.
15:21:57 <API> jjmarin, well, they want that because next monday is next freeze
15:22:17 <API> in my case, for the ATK stuff on gnome-shell, and as release-notes should not be really long
15:22:25 <API> I will make a general line
15:22:34 <joanie> and I'll write up something for Orca
15:22:43 <joanie> but not until after code freeze
15:23:05 <jjmarin> clown: ok, at least we have a configuration menu for the magnifier ;-)
15:23:14 <clown> I went to add something about the mag prefs dialog, but someone had already added it.
15:23:19 <clown> right jjmarin
15:23:55 <API> well, we can provide something for all
15:24:00 <API> and also a section with "pending final commit"
15:24:03 <API> having said so
15:24:16 <clown> I guess I'll add the b/c effect in GNOME Shell to the "plans for 3.6" section after the code freeze.  And the focus/caret-tracking.
15:24:18 <API> IMHO, at this moment we should focus on getting things integrated
15:24:25 <joanie> +1 API
15:24:30 <API> clown, yes that makes sense
15:24:38 <API> if in the end we are lucky and brightness
15:24:42 <API> is integrated on 3.4
15:24:51 <API> we can move that 3.6 item to 3.4
15:25:17 <jjmarin> ok. I'll ask where we have all the bits for the release notes to show to the marjeting team
15:25:36 <jjmarin> sorry for the interruption. we can move on
15:26:11 <API> joanie, ?
15:26:29 <joanie> #info Joanie is continuing to work on small, safe fixes for Orca and testing with gnome-shell
15:26:37 <joanie> (done)
15:27:21 <API> mgorse, ?
15:28:28 <mgorse> #info mgorse fixed a regression introduced with a recent glib that was making gnome-shell not be accessible, and also tried to fix a "bug" where keystrokes intended for Orca are sometimes being passed through to the application., and is also concerned that Evolution still isn't usable.
15:28:30 <mgorse> done
15:28:47 <joanie> evolution is a disaster a11y wize :(
15:28:56 <joanie> but way to go on the glib fix
15:29:01 <joanie> and thanks!
15:29:20 <joanie> I do have a question though
15:29:40 <joanie> since you put "bug" in quotes, is this something I should be trying to handle somehow within Orca?
15:30:03 <API> mgorse, but this evolution thing is something related with at-spi2 changes?
15:30:07 <API> or a general disaster?
15:30:26 <joanie> I think it's their custom atk implementation
15:30:33 <mgorse> joanie: I don't think so. Sorry.
15:31:17 <joanie> you don't think it's something for me to handle in Orca (keystrokes) or you don't think the evolution problems are their custom atk implementation?
15:31:28 <mgorse> yeah; it used to be normal for apps to get the gail type through the atk factory, and that doesn't work anymore after the GAIL refactor
15:31:40 <mgorse> (I have a patch which I thought should help in theory, but it doesn't seem to)
15:32:33 <mgorse> joanie: I don't know how much Orca can do to handle it, although maybe there's some way to handle it that I'm not thinking of
15:32:55 * joanie nods
15:32:56 <joanie> ok
15:33:03 <API> about the factories thing
15:33:10 <API> strange, as Benjamin refactor
15:33:16 <API> still kept the factories there
15:33:22 <API> anyway, somewhat offtopic now
15:33:33 <API> so anyone else want to add something to 3.4 updates?
15:33:39 <API> comments? doubts? questions?
15:33:41 <mgorse> Ideally I guess Orca would somehow tell X which key combinations it needed and grab them, but I guess that would take some investigation, etc
15:34:19 <joanie> we do set the xmodmap
15:34:31 <joanie> but maybe we can discuss this more outside the meeting
15:35:32 <API> I will take that as a "move on"
15:35:35 <API> #topic Outreach Program for Women
15:35:49 <API> clown, ?
15:36:19 <clown> #info Joseph wrote a draft of a proposal for automated ARIA testing.
15:36:32 <clown> #info http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/AriaAutomatedTesting
15:37:15 <clown> # info I also attempted to break it down into sub-tasks so that there is something a student could take on.
15:37:22 <clown> oops.
15:37:31 <clown> #info I also attempted to break it down into sub-tasks so that there is something a student could take on.
15:37:36 <joanie> :)
15:37:53 * clown wonders what the next steps are
15:37:54 <API> clown,  ok thanks
15:38:03 <API> yes, this is the same I wanted to talk about
15:38:06 <API> during these weeks
15:38:14 <API> joanie and me were contacted by students
15:38:22 <API> interested on this
15:38:24 <API> so
15:38:33 <API> should we tell them (an Marina)
15:38:41 <API> that during weekly meeting we talked about that
15:38:45 <joanie> we could add a link to the page
15:38:45 <API> and defined that project?
15:38:53 <API> and put in contact with you?
15:39:03 <clown> sure
15:39:37 <joanie> I'm thinking that on http://live.gnome.org/GnomeLove/Mentors it could be added
15:39:46 * clown looks
15:40:01 <API> ok, so, what about this
15:40:06 <API> 1. send a mail to marina
15:40:19 <API> "we were talking about GSOW during meeting bla bla
15:40:33 <API> what about adding  a link to that project, and Joseph as mentor
15:40:42 <API> what we should do with students that put in contact with us"
15:40:48 <API> 2. depends on Marina answer
15:40:53 <joanie> or
15:41:06 <joanie> we could break the current a11y team section up
15:41:13 <joanie> into a bullet called general
15:41:22 <joanie> and further indent ourselves under that
15:41:30 <joanie> because I think marina wants to keep us there
15:41:40 <joanie> and a new bullet called <whatever joseph wants>
15:41:45 <clown> or both (an email, and re-org of mentors page).
15:41:47 <joanie> with sub-bullets
15:42:01 <joanie> i.e. we do not need to ask permission
15:42:16 <joanie> but if you want to email Marina, sure
15:42:45 <API> well, she coordinates that stuff
15:42:56 <API> but we can reorder that
15:42:58 <joanie> Mentors, please read the information for mentors before adding yourself and your project to this page.
15:42:59 <API> as it is the a11y stuff
15:43:03 <API> and tell marina
15:43:11 <clown> good point, joanie
15:43:12 <API> "marina, we were doing this this and this"
15:43:17 <joanie> the above text was written by Marina
15:43:27 <joanie> she wants you to read the info for mentors
15:43:28 <jjmarin> We have "posted opportunities." section in out live page
15:43:32 <joanie> and suggests we add ourselves
15:44:13 <jjmarin> s/our/out/
15:44:42 <jjmarin> we can add a link to the aria project there
15:45:11 <API> poster opportunities?
15:45:11 <joanie> posted opportunities are contracts
15:45:12 <API> jjmarin, url?
15:45:20 <API> yes I have the same feeling
15:45:28 <joanie> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Opportunities
15:45:30 <API> just wanted to check it
15:45:34 <joanie> since I wrote the page
15:45:40 <joanie> I can tell you your feeling is correct
15:45:50 <API> yes, I agree with joanie
15:46:03 <API> this is not the place for a GSOW project definition
15:46:06 <API> imho
15:46:16 <joanie> yeah
15:46:30 <joanie> anyway, let's just decide and move on?
15:46:35 <jjmarin> ok, I didn't know the exact meaning of poster :-)
15:46:47 <API> yes
15:46:49 <API> so in summary
15:46:58 <API> #action reorganize GSOW section about a11y
15:47:09 <joanie> needs and assignee
15:47:14 <joanie> s/and/an/
15:47:20 <API> #action API send a mail to Marina after that, we will ask her what to do with students that contacted us
15:47:59 <API> well, this week we will bery busy with code freezes
15:47:59 <API> oops
15:48:04 <API> s/bery/very
15:48:21 <API> so, could we set a GSOW reorganization on next week meeting?
15:48:23 * joanie nods
15:49:28 <API> #info on next weekly meeting we will decide who will do the reorganization
15:49:30 <API> so moving
15:49:40 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
15:49:41 <API> jjmarin, ?
15:50:01 <jjmarin> No new info this week
15:50:19 <jjmarin> the main topic is the release notes
15:50:51 <API> jjmarin, could you give us some deadlines?
15:50:53 <jjmarin> We need to organize the process to get all the release notes :-)
15:51:01 <API> I mean that I'm not sure when all the stuff needs to be done
15:51:06 <API> and when it will be published
15:51:09 <jjmarin> they want to have for tomorrow
15:51:21 <joanie> I want to be rich
15:51:22 <jjmarin> but it's unrealistic
15:51:28 <joanie> :)
15:51:33 <API> well, I know that they want to frighten people
15:51:36 <API> to get things done
15:51:43 <jjmarin> I think we can get early next week
15:51:46 <API> but having the release-notes before the real releases
15:51:51 <API> is just unrealistic by design
15:52:21 <clown> it's unrealistic on purpose?
15:52:24 <joanie> <rant>Release notes should be written after code freeze. Prior to that, poking developers who are scrambling is just plain mean and won't get results.</rant>
15:52:25 <clown> -)
15:52:31 <API> clown, well, it is just my opinion ;)
15:52:32 <jjmarin> yes, but they want to translate and show to the press even before to release
15:52:49 <API> jjmarin, well, as you are the marketing volunteer ;)
15:53:02 <API> what about if any of us send to you the release notes of his own module
15:53:07 <API> or own work
15:53:18 <API> if you prefer we can go directly to the release notes wiki
15:53:20 * API searching
15:53:37 <API> https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointThree/ReleaseNotes
15:53:53 <clown> According to Andre's email, they don't want full release notes on that wiki page (let me confirm that).
15:54:47 <clown> actually that's on the page itself:
15:54:57 <clown> "Please note that this does not need to be pretty. It's just a list that will be used to make the actual release notes."
15:55:30 <clown> so: where to put the actual release notes?  and who writes them?
15:55:39 <jjmarin> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/marketing-list/2012-March/msg00022.html
15:56:08 <clown> thanks jjmarin
15:57:12 <API> so jjmarin what do you think about my "lets send jjmarin mails"?
15:57:17 <API> is too much for your plate?
15:57:33 <joanie> or perhaps start a draft page on the wiki
15:57:35 <jjmarin> anyway. For me it's ok to add in a wiki or emails and I'll put in th right place http://git.gnome.org/browse/release-notes/tree/help/C/rna11y.xml?h=gnome-3-4
15:57:38 <clown> of course, I can't actually look at the meat, since it is password protected:  http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.4/
15:57:43 <joanie> like we do for quarterlies?
15:57:48 <API> joanie, well, I like that idea
15:59:05 <joanie> so looking here:
15:59:13 * joanie waits for page to load
15:59:26 <joanie> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ReleaseNotes
15:59:39 <joanie> it even looks like we have a planning page
16:00:03 <joanie> so jjmarin why not make the planning page for 3.4
16:00:09 <joanie> and we can add stuff?
16:00:11 <joanie> (next week)
16:00:37 <jjmarin> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ReleaseNotes/ThreePointFour
16:00:51 <joanie> yup
16:00:58 <API> soo o
16:01:02 <jjmarin> people who has
16:01:11 <API> #action everybody, start to fill https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ReleaseNotes/ThreePointFour ASAP
16:01:28 <jjmarin> thanks API for the action
16:01:35 <jjmarin> the sooner the better
16:01:46 <joanie> after code freeze
16:01:47 <joanie> ;)
16:01:58 <API> ok, so as we already over meeting time
16:02:03 <jjmarin> when is code freeze
16:02:03 <API> lets move quick
16:02:05 <jjmarin> ?
16:02:07 <joanie> monday
16:02:10 <API> jjmarin, this monday
16:02:15 <jjmarin> ok
16:02:17 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
16:02:30 <API> someone wants to add something not-scheduled and short?
16:02:43 <API> "something" can be also a question
16:02:53 <joanie> I'm not scheduled and I am short
16:03:38 <jjmarin> which new feature can have a screenshot in the release news. AFAIK, magnifier menu and high contrast theme
16:03:40 <jjmarin> ?
16:04:00 * clown looks for mag prefs screen shot
16:04:38 <API> jjmarin, yes I think so
16:04:40 <API> as other improvements
16:04:44 <clown> jjmarin, http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Magnification/ZoomOptionsDialog?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ZoomOptionsDialog.png
16:04:52 <API> like stability or more ATK support on GNOME Shell
16:04:59 <clown> would that do?
16:05:04 <API> are not really "screenshotable"
16:05:43 <jjmarin> well, I can add and someone will remove if not fashionable enough :-)
16:06:15 * joanie smiles quietly to herself
16:06:34 * clown can hear joanie smiling to herself
16:07:23 <jjmarin> anyway I know mag users will love it eve if not "screenshotable" enough
16:08:01 <API> ok
16:08:09 <API> I think that this is enough for today
16:08:13 <API> thanks to be here
16:08:18 <API> see you soon in #a11y
16:08:21 <API> #endmeeting