1 15:06:15 <API> #startmeeting
   2 15:06:15 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Mar  8 15:06:15 2012 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 15:06:15 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 15:06:16 <clown> sorry. :-p
   5 15:06:49 <API> #topic Outreach Program for Women
   6 15:06:57 <API> hmm, I have read last meeting minutes
   7 15:07:04 <API> and I think that you already talked about this
   8 15:07:06 <API> joanie, ?
   9 15:07:11 <API> anything else to talk about?
  10 15:07:12 <joanie> see the action item
  11 15:07:13 <joanie> yes
  12 15:07:17 <clown> mgorse:  and I have an action.
  13 15:07:24 <API> ok
  14 15:07:30 <API> so, please your turn
  15 15:07:32 <clown> i have something to say.
  16 15:07:41 <clown> ok, mgorse?
  17 15:08:04 * clown silence means yes...
  18 15:08:04 <joanie> clown: you first
  19 15:08:07 * joanie nods
  20 15:08:35 <clown> okay, this needs a bit of introductory material, and may be bigger that the WOP, so bear with me...
  21 15:08:50 <joanie> info's please where appropriate
  22 15:09:19 <clown> #info I'm (Joseph) involved in the testing of the ARIA specification.
  23 15:09:45 <clown> #info testing means checking that there are at least two implementations of the spec that work.
  24 15:10:07 <clown> #info I'm concentrating on FF and ATK/AT-SPI as part of that effort.
  25 15:10:44 <clown> #info others are testing IE and FF on Windows  with IAccessible2 and on Mac (Safari), and their Ax
  26 15:11:10 <jjmarin> hi !
  27 15:11:10 <clown> #info the testing involves loading a small html file into the browser with, for example, an aria role set in the markup.
  28 15:11:42 <clown> #info then looking at that using accerciser to see what is coming out of AT-SPI
  29 15:12:36 <clown> #info where there is an expected result from the spec (something like:  a Div with role "alert" is published in AT-SPI as an accessible with an ALERT role".
  30 15:12:53 <clown> #info there will be upwards of 1000 ? such tests.
  31 15:13:02 <clown> #info it would be nice to automate this.
  32 15:13:09 * joanie nods
  33 15:13:25 <API> questions time?
  34 15:13:34 <clown> not yet.
  35 15:13:39 <clown> let me finish, please.
  36 15:13:40 * API waits
  37 15:13:45 <API> sorry, please go on
  38 15:14:25 <clown> #info IBM has added code to AccProbe on Windows to output an XML file that describe what IAccessble2 is seeing when a test file is loaded into the browser.
  39 15:14:45 <clown> #info right now they simply do a diff between that XML output and the expected output.
  40 15:15:01 <clown> #info personally, I think a more object oriented approach would be better.
  41 15:15:30 <clown> #info I think something like IBM's approach could be added to Accercier somehow as a way of automating this process.
  42 15:16:02 <clown> #info so that's the description of the overall problem while pointing vaguely at a solution, but
  43 15:16:11 <clown> #info is there anything in there for WOP?
  44 15:16:14 <clown> done.
  45 15:16:21 * joanie thinks so
  46 15:16:27 <joanie> but let's do API's questions
  47 15:16:34 <API> ok, well
  48 15:16:40 <API> this seems a nice project
  49 15:16:45 <API> but not sure if proper
  50 15:16:50 <API> for a student
  51 15:16:57 <API> with no previous a11y knowledge
  52 15:17:09 <joanie> I would disagree, but go on
  53 15:17:21 <API> well, this was basically my question ;)
  54 15:17:27 <API> are you sure that it is proper for a student?
  55 15:17:41 <joanie> so here's why I personally think it is
  56 15:17:42 <API> (please explain me, not just a yes)
  57 15:17:53 <clown> I would agree with API if you are talking about the entire project, but maybe some sub-task within it would be good for student.
  58 15:17:55 <joanie> I think this is perfect; not just proper
  59 15:18:05 <clown> I'm just not sure what that subtask would be.
  60 15:18:08 <joanie> keep in mind btw that this is full time work
  61 15:18:11 <joanie> that is paid
  62 15:18:20 <joanie> for like 3 or more months
  63 15:18:27 <joanie> and we have CS student candidates
  64 15:18:32 <API> clown, ok, so in summary, you explained *all* the project
  65 15:18:35 <joanie> but getting back to why I think it is perfect
  66 15:18:37 <API> where you are working on
  67 15:18:44 * joanie waits
  68 15:18:47 <API> but the idea for this WOP is give some sub-tasks
  69 15:18:48 <API> right?
  70 15:19:08 <clown> API, I described the whole the project in rough.
  71 15:19:38 <API> clown, joanie ok, thanks for the further explanation
  72 15:19:46 <joanie> i'm not done yet
  73 15:19:48 <joanie> ;)
  74 15:19:52 <joanie> I'm merely waiting
  75 15:19:57 <clown> go ahead joanie
  76 15:20:04 <joanie> so....
  77 15:20:32 <joanie> Everyone knows what the web is (duh)
  78 15:20:47 <joanie> you don't need a11y knowledge for that
  79 15:20:53 <joanie> you don't need screen reader knowledge for that
  80 15:21:08 <joanie> we have an existing (but non-automated) process clown is already performing
  81 15:21:12 <joanie> we have accerciser
  82 15:21:22 <joanie> we have whatever bnitz's testing framework is
  83 15:21:36 <joanie> we have that macaroon tool
  84 15:21:52 <joanie> we have potentially CS students with programming experience
  85 15:22:00 <joanie> who if selected will be working full time
  86 15:22:15 <joanie> this could be something we as a community could help mentor
  87 15:22:20 <joanie> led by Joseph
  88 15:22:27 <joanie> so the student would have lots of resources
  89 15:22:29 <joanie> and
  90 15:22:40 <joanie> in the end we have someone who is smarter about accessibility issues and concerns
  91 15:22:47 <joanie> which I think all CS students should have
  92 15:23:00 <joanie> and we don't need to worry about the actual implementation (toolkit stuff)
  93 15:23:09 <joanie> just see if what the expected value is is there
  94 15:23:16 <joanie> so the project is just automating it
  95 15:23:18 <joanie> right?
  96 15:23:28 <joanie> (and we need better automated tools)
  97 15:23:30 <joanie> (done)
  98 15:23:50 <API> ok,
  99 15:23:53 <API> so next question
 100 15:24:03 <API> taking into account that students requires to do a initial
 101 15:24:06 <API> contribution
 102 15:24:10 <API> to a project
 103 15:24:18 <API> I guess that the ideal project would be Accerciser
 104 15:24:25 <API> something like fixing some basic bugs
 105 15:24:32 <API> clown, is this guess correct?
 106 15:25:00 <clown> API, yes, my intuition is that Accerciser is one major piece of the project.
 107 15:25:20 <clown> I don't know enough about whether this should be built into Accerciser, or
 108 15:25:25 <clown> a plugin to it.
 109 15:25:59 <joanie> is that validator plugin still around?
 110 15:26:01 * joanie looks
 111 15:26:20 <joanie> seems to be
 112 15:26:31 <API> well, in any case, the initial contribution is intended to show that you have developer skills
 113 15:26:32 <clown> but something tells Accerciser to dump out or compare its interal representation of the a11y info against the expected result.
 114 15:26:42 <API> adn start to look to a11y APIs and so on
 115 15:26:48 <clown> "internal"
 116 15:27:47 <API> well, almost +25 minutes on the meeting
 117 15:27:53 <API> so, something else to say
 118 15:27:59 <joanie> maybe the initial contribution could be to write some HTML-related AT-SPI Validator schema
 119 15:28:01 <API> I guess that this is the only defined project
 120 15:28:05 <clown> well, what would be the next step (my next action)?
 121 15:28:13 <API> clown, makes sense
 122 15:28:52 <clown> I'm inclined to put down a description of the issue and rough ideas of the project on a wiki page.  what do you think?
 123 15:28:54 <joanie> clown: I think identify a potential contribution and take your report here and write it up formally
 124 15:29:02 <joanie> I agree
 125 15:29:17 <jjmarin> +1
 126 15:29:18 <joanie> then we can point to that document on the Marina page
 127 15:29:20 <clown> and mull over a specific task that a student could do.
 128 15:29:39 <joanie> I really like this idea clown. Thanks!!
 129 15:29:42 <clown> okay, I'll do that.
 130 15:30:11 <clown> my pleasure (notes that he is trying to avoid having to do all 1000 files by hand — a great motivator…)
 131 15:30:25 <joanie> #info Joanie likes this plan tremendously.
 132 15:30:33 <joanie> ai clown
 133 15:30:38 <joanie> (action item)
 134 15:30:45 <jjmarin> ah
 135 15:31:16 <clown> #action Joseph will create a wiki page describing the overall task and think about student-oriented chunks of it.
 136 15:31:17 <jjmarin> ai != artificial intenllegence :-)
 137 15:31:43 <clown> yes, let's get student to build an AI that will take care of all a11y issues.
 138 15:32:10 <joanie> +1000 to a11y issues bot
 139 15:32:26 <clown> there's hope for you yet, tota11y
 140 15:32:32 <joanie> heh
 141 15:32:41 <joanie> it still doesn't get a day
 142 15:32:57 <joanie> so is it mgorse's turn?
 143 15:33:05 <clown> yah, I'm done for this topic.
 144 15:34:13 <joanie> hmmmm. Is mgorse around?
 145 15:34:26 <mgorse> I'm not sure I have much to say really. In part I suggested unit tests because I figure it hopefully wouldn't require a lot of pre-existing knowledge and would be somewhat well-defined. But I'm having trouble thinking of an initial contribution to propose
 146 15:35:08 <joanie> I wonder if two similarish contributions would be worth coming up with
 147 15:35:15 <API> mgorse, well, the most important is not the initial contribution
 148 15:35:19 <API> but the project itself
 149 15:35:34 <API> usually initial contribution just need to be some patches on a project
 150 15:35:43 <API> something to show that you are able to learn and develop
 151 15:35:55 <API> but the challenge is with the two-three months project
 152 15:35:58 <joanie> <strike>and get along with us</strike>
 153 15:36:36 <jjmarin> the initial path is just to have some garantee that the student has the necessary skills
 154 15:37:29 <API> anyway, I guess that mgorse still needs to think on the details of the project
 155 15:37:32 <API> mgorse, is this is the case?
 156 15:38:11 <mgorse> Maybe it would be good to put it on a wiki somewhere
 157 15:38:53 <API> ok, so in that case, lets keep the action item
 158 15:39:10 <API> you had on previous week, and lets move to next item in the meeting
 159 15:39:12 <API> is this fine?
 160 15:39:30 <mgorse> yeah, and I have a general idea of what it would need but should probably work out the specifics some
 161 15:39:30 <joanie> +1
 162 15:39:51 <mgorse> or at least have a concrete suggestion of how to go about it
 163 15:40:05 <API> ok, so lets move then
 164 15:40:20 <API> #topic GNOME 3.4 Updates
 165 15:40:27 <API> althougnh in fact it should be 3.4 planning
 166 15:40:30 <API> I will start myself
 167 15:40:45 <API> #info API + joanie were working on ATK support for GNOME Shell
 168 15:40:55 <API> #info joanie thinks that the situation improved
 169 15:41:03 <API> #info API will ping danw
 170 15:41:22 <API> #info somewhat unrelated but also related, today there is a release team meeting
 171 15:41:45 <API> #info one of the items to discuss are which bugs mark as 3.4
 172 15:42:14 <API> #info API will ask about this GNOME Shell+ATK patches, although probably it depends on GNOME shell maintainers
 173 15:42:34 <API> #info if other people have some question to that release team meeting, this is the time to express them
 174 15:42:36 <API> done
 175 15:42:46 <clown> I have some updates here.
 176 15:43:14 <clown> #info re:  bugzilla 656156
 177 15:43:37 <clown> #info the brightness / contrast effect has been committed to clutter master.
 178 15:44:03 <clown> #info the bug, however is left open while they decide what to do about the lightness inversion effect.
 179 15:44:33 <clown> #info Joseph needs to touch base with ebassi to see if the transparency issue has been fixed.
 180 15:45:05 <clown> #info mclasen has noted on the GS bug regarding these effects that the b/c effect has at least landed.
 181 15:45:29 <clown> #info Joseph will continue the code in GS that uses these effects, and create a new patch.
 182 15:46:08 <clown> #info Joseph will also poke the gnome-desktop-schemas project to review and commit the prefs schema for these effects.
 183 15:46:11 <clown> done.
 184 15:46:30 <API> so, hopefully that effect will be working for 3.4?
 185 15:46:54 <clown> #action Joseph will update the Gnome 3.4 release features page wrt this work.
 186 15:47:13 <joanie> that reminds me to put my green glasses on. forgot yesterday and the eye pain was bad.
 187 15:47:20 <clown> API, not sure.  If the transparency bug is still there, then it doesn't work.
 188 15:47:39 <clown> the transparency bug is:
 189 15:48:04 <clown> any clutter effect applied to an actor makes is semi-transparent such that any actor underneath it shows through.
 190 15:48:32 <clown> which you don't want...
 191 15:49:15 <API> any clutter effect?
 192 15:49:27 <API> hmm, that sounds bad
 193 15:49:38 <API> anyway, just 10 minutes till the end
 194 15:49:39 <clown> yeah.  it's not limited to "my" effects.
 195 15:49:40 <API> so if you finished
 196 15:49:52 <API> anyother wants to add some 3.4 stuff?
 197 15:49:53 <clown> sure, unless you have more questions.
 198 15:51:07 <API> joanie, mgorse ?
 199 15:51:17 <joanie> nah, let's move on
 200 15:51:25 <joanie> we deep dove on a topic I care about
 201 15:51:32 <joanie> someone else's turn
 202 15:51:33 <joanie> :)
 203 15:52:11 <jjmarin> so marketing and fundraising now ?
 204 15:52:23 <joanie> once the topic gets switched
 205 15:52:32 <jjmarin> ok :-)
 206 15:52:34 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 207 15:52:46 <jjmarin> #info Another US $1000 for the FoG a11y campaign this week
 208 15:52:53 <clown> yay!
 209 15:53:05 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo added a new testimonial to the FoG page www.gnome.org/friends
 210 15:53:18 <jjmarin> #info Karen will post about the status of the campaign and she will  mention the new testimonial
 211 15:53:50 <jjmarin> this is the activity of this week, questions ?
 212 15:54:33 <API> nope from my side
 213 15:54:39 <jjmarin> clown: Diego is a user of the gnome shell magnification :-)
 214 15:55:10 <API> yes, GNOME Shell mag is really good, it would be really good to have that focus tracking
 215 15:55:17 <API> but well, 3.6 is next
 216 15:55:21 <API> lets see what happens
 217 15:55:31 <API> so, if nobody complains I will move on
 218 15:55:33 <clown> :-)
 219 15:55:36 <joanie> focus tracking and inverse brightness
 220 15:55:38 <joanie> :)
 221 15:55:57 <API> but I still hope to have brightness on 3.4 ;)
 222 15:55:59 <API> so moving on
 223 15:55:59 <jjmarin> but we have the configuration panel in 3.4 :-)
 224 15:56:07 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
 225 15:56:12 <clown> actually about that configuration panel...
 226 15:56:19 <API> #info Andre Kappler asked to help on release notes
 227 15:56:33 <API> #info so start to think on what we got done on 3.4 for those release notes
 228 15:56:37 <API> done
 229 15:56:41 <API> next with misc stuff
 230 15:57:01 <clown> #action Joseph will write something the the mag configuration panel for Andre Klapper and release notes.
 231 15:57:19 <clown> s/the the magnification/about the magnification/
 232 15:57:30 <jjmarin> API: the new high contrast themes is another item for the release notes
 233 15:58:33 <jjmarin> I was trying to compile gnome shell for checking the new themes but I've got stalled in jhbuild with some libtools problems
 234 15:58:36 <API> jjmarin, do we have a volunteer to write about that?
 235 15:58:36 <API> meg?
 236 15:59:34 <jjmarin> I can contact her. But IFAIK, the info should be very briefly
 237 15:59:45 <jjmarin> A sentence or two
 238 16:00:23 <API> exactly, but I don't know all the dtails of that work
 239 16:00:38 <API> so the reason Meg is the best option to write it
 240 16:01:00 <API> meeting over time
 241 16:01:07 <joanie> unless jjmarin knows about it himself
 242 16:01:08 <API> so if someone wants to add something to misc time
 243 16:01:10 <API> need to be quick!
 244 16:01:14 <clown> yes — about the system settings panels — I've done a very preliminary check on their a11y
 245 16:01:23 <clown> Accerciser doesn't see anything inside the dialog window.
 246 16:01:28 <clown> Orca annoucnces "inaccessble dialog" when I navigate to it.
 247 16:01:35 <clown> Is this a known issue? Or am I doing something wrong?
 248 16:01:43 <joanie> it (used to) work for me
 249 16:01:48 <joanie> I guess I should check again
 250 16:01:50 <jjmarin> I can take of charge of the theme part for the release note. I'll contact the people involved for that
 251 16:01:58 <joanie> thanks jjmarin
 252 16:02:16 <clown> as I said, it was a quick test.  i'll try again, and contact you for pointers, joanie
 253 16:02:30 <joanie> clown: sure. but there was nothing special I did
 254 16:02:37 <joanie> so I dunno
 255 16:02:51 <jjmarin> #info Juanjo will contact high contrast contributors for writing the lines for GNOME 3.4 release note
 256 16:02:54 <clown> me neither :-(
 257 16:03:03 <jjmarin> is not an info , righ ?
 258 16:03:11 <joanie> don't worry
 259 16:03:12 <API> action in fact ;)
 260 16:03:13 <joanie> I'll fix it
 261 16:03:31 <jjmarin> joanie: ;-)
 262 16:03:49 <joanie> as long as it gets in the autogenerated minutes (which info's do), I clean it up
 263 16:04:04 <joanie> I've stopped looking through the logs for missed (non included) bits
 264 16:04:27 <clown> s/the the mag/about the mag/
 265 16:04:38 <joanie> heh
 266 16:04:45 <joanie> I would have gotten that
 267 16:04:57 * clown wonders do the substitutions  actually do anything?
 268 16:05:05 <joanie> no
 269 16:05:25 <clown> w3c's bot is better than tota11y.
 270 16:05:25 <API> well, 5 minutes over time
 271 16:05:26 <joanie> but no one writes perfectly so I proofread the minutes. I'm sure I miss stuff, but....
 272 16:05:29 <API> soooo
 273 16:05:31 <clown> :-)
 274 16:05:31 <joanie> heh
 275 16:05:32 <API> meeting over
 276 16:05:34 <API> #endmeeting