1 15:08:12 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 15:08:12 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Mar  1 15:08:12 2012 UTC.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 15:08:12 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 15:08:24 <joanie> #topic Outreach Program for Women
   5 15:08:46 <joanie> #info Marina a while back added our team to the list of ongoing mentors
   6 15:09:21 <joanie> #info Marina also has a specific page on "info for mentors" in which she specifically addresses the case of what to do when you don't have availability.
   7 15:09:46 <joanie> #info Joanie's personal translation of these documents is that even when we are busy, we are supposed to remain on the mentor list. ;)
   8 15:10:09 <joanie> #info We are now starting to hear from would-be Outreach Program interns.
   9 15:10:36 <joanie> #info Joanie would like to know which team members can serve as mentors and have a requisite "pre-participation contribution" to offer.
  10 15:10:44 * joanie yields the floor
  11 15:11:21 * joanie hums a tune
  12 15:11:36 <aleiva> umh, how much time it will need?
  13 15:11:47 <joanie> mentor time or student/intern time?
  14 15:11:55 <aleiva> mentor time
  15 15:12:06 <joanie> Depends on if you get an independent student or not.
  16 15:12:27 <joanie> In the case of Aline, things worked out nicely. She showed up even though we were not on the mentor list.
  17 15:12:32 <joanie> She had done her homework.
  18 15:12:38 <joanie> She had a project to propose.
  19 15:12:44 <mgorse> Does the document explain what kind of "pre-participation contribution" is required?
  20 15:12:46 <joanie> She required very little mentoring.
  21 15:12:46 <jjmarin> hi !
  22 15:12:52 <joanie> hey jjmarin
  23 15:13:01 <joanie> getting back to aleiva's question....
  24 15:13:05 <jjmarin> who's she ?
  25 15:13:28 <joanie> The two people I have heard from so far have shown up and basically said "hi! I'd like to participate. Assign me something."
  26 15:13:38 <aleiva> ok
  27 15:13:45 <joanie> so I am guessing that they are not going to be self-starters and WILL require time.
  28 15:13:46 <mgorse> jjmarin: Aline. We're discussing the outreach program for women
  29 15:13:56 <joanie> hence I am not volunteering to mentor
  30 15:13:57 <jjmarin> ok, thanks !
  31 15:14:09 <joanie> mgorse: to your question
  32 15:14:18 <joanie> the pre-participation contribution is typically bug fixing
  33 15:14:24 <joanie> for coders
  34 15:14:35 <joanie> people can participate in other areas
  35 15:14:39 <joanie> like documentation writing
  36 15:14:41 <joanie> marketing, etc.
  37 15:14:49 <aleiva> I would like but I feel I don't have enough time :-(
  38 15:14:50 <joanie> but the two in question are CS students
  39 15:14:54 <joanie> aleiva: me too
  40 15:15:03 <joanie> and there is also cost-benefit analysis
  41 15:15:14 <joanie> Aline was worth it. She's busy now, but she'll be back I think.
  42 15:15:17 <aleiva> but I think that documentation of at-spi and creating of more examples would be a good thing
  43 15:15:29 <aleiva> creation*
  44 15:15:34 <mgorse> yeah, ideally I guess it's supposed to get people more involved in GNOME in the long term
  45 15:15:43 <joanie> mgorse: exactly
  46 15:16:01 <joanie> and the hard thing about accessibility (imho) is that you kinda need to know quite a bit
  47 15:16:08 <aleiva> sure
  48 15:16:09 <joanie> at least conceptually
  49 15:16:13 <clown> yep
  50 15:16:20 <joanie> if you don't know about the disability in question
  51 15:16:20 <aleiva> it's a complex technology stack
  52 15:16:31 <joanie> AND you don't know about toolkit and application development
  53 15:16:39 <joanie> AND you don't know about accessibility support
  54 15:16:52 <joanie> and the other thing worth stating imho
  55 15:16:58 <joanie> is that these are paid internships
  56 15:17:08 <joanie> in other words, the motivation is hopefully to get involved
  57 15:17:14 <joanie> but there is a stipend
  58 15:17:19 <joanie> of I think $5000
  59 15:17:27 <joanie> if you are a student in a developing nation
  60 15:17:34 <joanie> this is also a motivator
  61 15:17:45 <joanie> so....
  62 15:18:13 <joanie> I will ask officially for the sake of minutes..... (and answer for myself)
  63 15:18:22 <jjmarin> wow+
  64 15:18:55 <joanie> #info Joanie asked the team members present if they have the time to serve as mentors and if so if they have a proposed initial contribution and a proposed project task.
  65 15:19:31 <joanie> #info Joanie herself feels that she does not have the time and is concerned that students with no knowledge about accessibility will be hard to place in the Orca project.
  66 15:19:36 <joanie> everyone else?
  67 15:20:20 <jjmarin> I agree with you. We need more human resources for having time to mentor
  68 15:20:28 <joanie> jjmarin: info's please
  69 15:21:08 <aleiva> #info aleiva suggest that gnome a11y group don't have enough time to achieve their goals neither to mentor students with no knowledge
  70 15:21:09 <joanie> aleiva: mgorse clown ?
  71 15:21:16 <jjmarin> Info Juanjo agrees we need more people to be able to mentoring and doing our stuff
  72 15:21:25 <joanie> (#info)
  73 15:21:40 <jjmarin> #Info Juanjo agrees we need more people to be able to mentoring and doing our stuff
  74 15:21:49 <joanie> (thanks)
  75 15:22:03 <jjmarin> :-)
  76 15:22:17 <mgorse> #info Unit tests for AT-SPI might be a good project, but would need to come up with a proposed initial contribution
  77 15:22:35 <joanie> that might be cool
  78 15:23:00 <clown> #info Joseph feels that he doesn't have a lot of time either.
  79 15:23:13 <joanie> mgorse: if we came up with such a proposed initial contribution, would you have time to supervise it
  80 15:23:19 <clown> #info Since this is new to him, he wants to mull it over some more.
  81 15:23:25 <clown> #info Especially in terms of a project.
  82 15:23:29 * joanie nods
  83 15:24:00 <joanie> okay so how about this:
  84 15:24:00 <jjmarin> mgorse: yes, it sounds like a good project for new people.... I think
  85 15:24:19 <mgorse> I think I could, at least
  86 15:24:36 <joanie> #info Based on this discussion, we might be able to offer something in the area of AT-SPI unit tests and maybe magnification. BUT we do not yet know for sure.
  87 15:24:54 <joanie> #action Joseph and Mike will each give this some careful consideration and get back to the team.
  88 15:25:01 <joanie> fair enough?
  89 15:25:06 <clown> fair.
  90 15:25:08 <mgorse> ok
  91 15:25:14 <joanie> and thank you guys
  92 15:25:28 <joanie> for the record, I don't want to discourage; but I do want to be realistic and practical
  93 15:25:38 <joanie> if another Aline shows up, I'll make time
  94 15:25:52 <joanie> okay... moving on?
  95 15:26:37 * joanie takes the silence as acceptance
  96 15:26:43 <joanie> #topic GNOME 3.4 Updates
  97 15:26:54 <joanie> #info Code freeze is the 19th
  98 15:27:11 <joanie> #info Joanie and Piñeiro have been working on Orca + gnome-shell
  99 15:27:34 <joanie> #info Piñeiro has done a number of patches, some have been committed; others are being reviewed by Dan W. (Yay!)
 100 15:27:57 <joanie> #info Joanie hopes gnome-shell + Orca will actually work fairly nicely for 3.4 (also yay!)
 101 15:28:03 * joanie yields the floor to everyone else
 102 15:28:22 <clown> #info Joseph has been diagnosing the problem with integrating his Clutter shader effects into GNOME Shell.
 103 15:28:23 <jjmarin> #info In gnome-themes-standard Cosimo Cecchi rewrote the high contrast theme, making it as decent as the GTK2 theme.
 104 15:28:33 <clown> jjmarin:  go ahead.
 105 15:28:50 <jjmarin> thanks
 106 15:28:59 * joanie notes that she will re-arrange infos later for the minutes
 107 15:29:11 <jjmarin> #info He mostly restored it to a good working state and made sure it works with the new widgets we have (e.g. inline toolbars in the control center, the new spinbuttons, ...)
 108 15:29:25 <jjmarin> done :-), clown, please
 109 15:29:33 <joanie> (oh yeah, new spinbuttons. didn't think about that one)
 110 15:29:44 <clown> jjmarin:  okay.  restarting...
 111 15:29:52 <clown> #info Joseph has been diagnosing the problem with integrating his Clutter shader effects into GNOME Shell.
 112 15:29:58 <clown> #info discovered that the bug is actually in Clutter --
 113 15:30:05 <clown> #info any shader applied to an actor makes it semi-transparent.
 114 15:30:22 <clown> #info  even when you really don't want it to be transparent at all.
 115 15:30:28 <joanie> (ugh)
 116 15:30:36 <clown> #info worse, I somehow missed a comment on the bugzilla by Ebassi that said as much.
 117 15:31:03 <clown> #info so, trying to find a work around, although maybe I need to become a cogl (open gl) expert...
 118 15:31:56 <clown> also, there were some accerciser bugs I filed back in 2009 that Andre Klapper pointed out needed a review for a patch.
 119 15:32:04 <clown> does that apply here (a 3.4 thing)?
 120 15:32:09 <joanie> it can
 121 15:32:17 <joanie> I'd like them in the minutes somewhere
 122 15:32:26 <joanie> jhernandez said he'd be late
 123 15:32:34 <joanie> so maybe misc time?
 124 15:32:40 <clown> sure.
 125 15:32:42 <joanie> k
 126 15:32:46 <joanie> thanks
 127 15:33:03 <joanie> mgorse: updates (info's) for at-spi2 3.4 progress?
 128 15:33:03 <clown> no problem.  nothing else really on the 3.4 front from me, then.
 129 15:34:15 <joanie> and after mgorse responds, aleiva any updates on your looking into the vte a11y bugs?
 130 15:35:08 <aleiva> #info aleiva's finally have a dev environment and a debugging vte thing. He's trying to run faster to have it managed before code freeze deadline.
 131 15:35:36 <mgorse> #info some AT-SPI bugs have been fixed recently. LDTP still has some issues that might not be delt with.
 132 15:36:23 <joanie> does LDTP get impacted by code freeze?
 133 15:36:38 <mgorse> #info and apps running as the super-user reportedly aren't accessible (although it works for me when I test). Need to investigate that.
 134 15:37:17 <mgorse> I'm not sure off-hand. I'm guessing not for ldtp itself. If there's something in AT-SPI that needs to be fixed, then it's impacted
 135 15:37:38 <mgorse> It's hosted on git.freedesktop.org
 136 15:38:00 <joanie> ah
 137 15:38:50 <joanie> and the super-user thing has always struck me as a comes-and-goes, distro-specific thing
 138 15:39:08 <joanie> I have never gotten why it doesn't just always work and/or be broken for everyone
 139 15:39:32 <joanie> anyhoo....
 140 15:39:36 <mgorse> or it isn't working with whatever mechanism vmware is using
 141 15:40:07 * joanie nods
 142 15:40:13 <joanie> so.... anything else on this front?
 143 15:40:31 <joanie> if not....
 144 15:40:35 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 145 15:40:43 <joanie> jjmarin?
 146 15:40:50 <jjmarin> ok
 147 15:41:05 <jjmarin> #info We've got around US $1400 more in the a11y FoG campaign  in the last two weeks
 148 15:41:40 <jjmarin> #Info I've got the legal permission for another (short) testimonial. It will probably go to the FoG page
 149 15:42:09 <jjmarin> and I don't remember more thing to say :-P
 150 15:42:14 <joanie> question:
 151 15:42:19 <jjmarin> yes
 152 15:42:25 <joanie> On the legal permission: Has this been seen by Karen?
 153 15:42:38 <joanie> i.e. to be sure that GNOME thinks we have the requisite permission?
 154 15:42:47 <joanie> i.e. we ain't lawyers
 155 15:42:48 <jjmarin> yes, I work with her
 156 15:42:51 <joanie> good
 157 15:42:52 <joanie> thank you
 158 15:42:59 <jjmarin> :-)
 159 15:43:00 <joanie> Karen is a lawyer I believe, in addition to being ED.
 160 15:43:10 <jjmarin> yes, she's
 161 15:43:15 <joanie> excellent
 162 15:43:19 <joanie> that makes me feel better
 163 15:43:40 <joanie> okay, so that's my only question.
 164 15:43:42 <joanie> anyone else?
 165 15:43:57 <jjmarin> And the legal risk seems to be low, if this make you feel even better :-)
 166 15:44:20 <joanie> What makes me feel fine is knowing that we have done due diligence.
 167 15:44:37 <joanie> If there ever is a problem, I want it to be Not Our Problem.
 168 15:44:58 <jjmarin> yes, you're right
 169 15:44:58 <joanie> we don't have time to mentor; we sure as heck don't have time for legal-related "oopses"
 170 15:45:30 <joanie> so I am happy knowing that we've done all we are SupposedToDo(tm)
 171 15:45:31 <joanie> ;)
 172 15:45:42 <joanie> ok, still no javi, but....
 173 15:45:49 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
 174 15:45:54 <joanie> let's start with clown
 175 15:46:06 <clown> #info Joseph did the barest minimum review of two of Aline's patches for Accerciser.
 176 15:46:16 <clown> #info bug 596758 596757
 177 15:46:16 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=596758 normal, Normal, ---, accerciser-devel, UNCONFIRMED, Configure does not install ipython
 178 15:46:29 <clown> #info The patches don't apply to the latest master code.
 179 15:46:45 <clown> #info I'm considering trying to modify them so they work, but haven't found a spare moment so far.
 180 15:46:59 <clown> #info Perhaps it's better if someone from the accerciser developers took a look.
 181 15:47:02 <clown> (done)
 182 15:47:05 * joanie nods
 183 15:47:28 <joanie> aleiva: since you work with jhernandez, can you ping him the next time you see him about this?
 184 15:47:48 * jjmarin thinks clown's progress on his patches are like soap-opera with several plots and characters :-P
 185 15:47:54 <joanie> :)
 186 15:48:22 <aleiva> joanie: sure
 187 15:48:23 * clown wants to know what jjmarin's role is in this soap opera.  where does a singing zombie fit in?
 188 15:48:44 <joanie> and misc time has just gotten misc ;)
 189 15:49:34 <joanie> so, whilst we chat amongst ourselves, if anyone has real stuff to info that wasn't discussed earlier, please feel free
 190 15:49:41 <joanie> the rest can sing, dance, etc.
 191 15:49:41 <joanie> :)
 192 15:50:54 <joanie> or we can just close the meeting
 193 15:51:03 * joanie raises her gavel
 194 15:51:12 * joanie looks around the table for fingers
 195 15:51:33 <joanie> #endmeeting