1 15:08:06 <API> #startmeeting
   2 15:08:06 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Feb 16 15:08:06 2012 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 15:08:06 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 15:08:06 <jhernandez> I was going to answer, but API answered before me
   5 15:08:25 <API> #topic Accessibility-related events at GUADEC?
   6 15:08:40 <API> #info some people made that question at misc time on the previous meeting
   7 15:09:14 <API> #info although most people were ok on having "something", one full week/5 days doesnt' seem too practical
   8 15:09:28 <API> #info on last guadec we had a accessibility session
   9 15:09:48 <API> #info API opinion: I think that it would be a good idea to have some days for that
  10 15:10:20 <API> #info FWIW, afaik, this year the global idea of the guadec is having some initial "core" days, and use the last days for meetings, bofhs, etc
  11 15:10:57 <API> done
  12 15:11:08 <API> well no
  13 15:11:16 <jhernandez> xDDD
  14 15:11:40 <joanie> well no?
  15 15:11:42 <API> #info API opinion: need to confirm this guadec schedule, if I'm right I think that the easier would be add a session/bofh at the last days
  16 15:11:54 <API> #info of GUADEC, as the rest of the teams
  17 15:11:58 <API> done-done
  18 15:12:04 <API> questions, doubts, comments?
  19 15:12:06 <joanie> #info Joanie would like to know who all is planning on attending GUADEC
  20 15:12:29 <API> taking into account that this time is in Coruña
  21 15:12:33 <joanie> #info What we plan on may depend on who we expect
  22 15:12:39 <API> #info API plans to go, msanchez likely
  23 15:12:42 <joanie> clown: you planning on guadec?
  24 15:12:57 <joanie> #info Joanie plans to go
  25 15:13:02 <jhernandez> #info jhernandez plans to go too
  26 15:13:18 <clown> general rule of thumb here:  there is no money to fund trips.
  27 15:13:39 <clown> however, if I could find funding, then the question becomes: is it worth it?
  28 15:13:51 <clown> I don't know at this point.
  29 15:14:02 <joanie> we have not tapped our gnome a11y travel budget hardly at all
  30 15:14:12 <joanie> last hackfest was mostly company sponsored
  31 15:14:15 <clown> when is GUADEC, this year?  It usually coincides with my summer vacation.
  32 15:14:16 <joanie> I paid my own way
  33 15:14:35 * clown joanie has a heart of gold.
  34 15:14:41 <joanie> nah
  35 15:14:46 <joanie> tax deductions needed
  36 15:14:56 <clown> interesting idea.
  37 15:15:04 <clown> "tax deductions".
  38 15:15:11 <joanie> became a contractor unexpectedly when I got laid off
  39 15:15:12 <joanie> ;)
  40 15:15:18 <joanie> no estimated taxes done
  41 15:15:20 <joanie> anyway
  42 15:15:32 <API> clown, about dates
  43 15:15:33 <API> http://guadec.org/
  44 15:15:38 * clown looking.
  45 15:15:43 <jhernandez> well, aleiva's not here, but I think that he's going to attend too
  46 15:15:46 <API> july 26 - august 1
  47 15:16:27 <clown> that is a couple weeks earlier than my vacation.  I'll think about it, then.
  48 15:16:36 <joanie> info clown?
  49 15:16:49 <joanie> I'd like to get a list of likely suspects
  50 15:17:11 <clown> #info clown will consider going to GUADEC if he can find funding, and if he thinks it's worthwhile.
  51 15:17:14 <joanie> like I said that would be helpful for deciding what sorts of stuff to actually do should we actually do an a11y at guadec thang
  52 15:17:30 <joanie> thanks clown
  53 15:17:40 <clown> my pleasure, joanie
  54 15:18:44 <API> ok, so in that case, I think that for this point
  55 15:18:48 <clown> there is a tweet on the guadec web page:  allan day would be great.. we thought someone to speak on a11y (maybe external speaker?).. 2012 is the year of #GNOME #a11y :) — 1 day 1 hour ago
  56 15:19:13 <clown> let's recommend someone who is not here.  ;-)
  57 15:19:23 <API> #action API will research for the schedule, to check if make sense a session on GUADEC, or we need to organize something pre-post guadec
  58 15:19:45 <API> #action API+joanie will ask other a11y team people about their plans for GUADEC
  59 15:19:47 <API> is this fine?
  60 15:19:55 <joanie> of course
  61 15:20:01 <clown> looks good, API
  62 15:21:02 <bnitz> #info bnitz is also considering going to GUADEC.
  63 15:21:07 <API> so ... anything else, moving to next point?
  64 15:22:28 * jhernandez nods
  65 15:22:30 <API> I will take the silence as a yes
  66 15:22:44 <API> that nods confirms my theory
  67 15:22:47 * clown silently nods 'yes'
  68 15:22:50 <API> #topic Testing Distro and associated wiki documentation
  69 15:23:33 <API> joanie, I think that you added this point
  70 15:23:47 <jhernandez> this topic it's about the other day mail at a11y-list
  71 15:23:48 <joanie> #info The testing distro keeps getting pointed to by some, e.g.http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2012-February/msg00017.html
  72 15:24:24 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks that if we are really done with this tool, we should consider finding a way to discourage people pointing to it as a viable option for new projects
  73 15:24:53 <joanie> #info Options include slapping a really clear "OVER and DONE" on the page and simply removing the page
  74 15:24:56 <joanie> (done)
  75 15:24:57 <clown> we could put a large warning at the top of the page saying "this is obsolete".
  76 15:25:04 * clown great minds and fools.
  77 15:25:12 <joanie> juggle alike?
  78 15:25:28 <clown> dunno, I can juggle three.  you?
  79 15:25:35 <joanie> can't juggle one
  80 15:25:44 <jhernandez> IMHO, a big red warning should be enough
  81 15:26:03 <joanie> jhernandez: since this is your project, can we task you with the big red warning?
  82 15:26:46 <jhernandez> #action jhernandez will add a big red warning on top of the wiki page informing that this project is finished
  83 15:26:51 <clown> if you included the version of GNOME (3.0?) that also reinforces its obsolesence.
  84 15:26:51 <joanie> :)
  85 15:26:55 <joanie> thank you
  86 15:27:26 <jhernandez> joanie: ;)
  87 15:27:49 <API> well, as we already have an action, I think that the point is over
  88 15:27:50 <API> right?
  89 15:27:53 <joanie> right
  90 15:27:56 <clown> left
  91 15:28:02 <bnitz> #info joanie, that's probably my fault.  I'm still pointing to it because to date its the only distro which runs the aegis tinderbox.
  92 15:28:24 <joanie> bnitz: if you are using it that's one thing
  93 15:28:32 <joanie> we have others suggesting its use to others
  94 15:29:32 <jhernandez> bnitz: well, you'll always can clone my project in susestudio
  95 15:29:38 <bnitz> joanie: I also added links when I cleaned up some of the a11y testing wikis
  96 15:29:49 <joanie> ah
  97 15:30:08 <bnitz> I can remove those links or add warnings.
  98 15:30:27 * joanie nods
  99 15:30:41 <bnitz> jhernandez: I can discuss with you about that afterwards.  Thanks.
 100 15:30:56 <jhernandez> bnitz: ok
 101 15:31:30 <jhernandez> so
 102 15:31:30 <jhernandez> API: next point?
 103 15:31:32 <API> ok, thanks
 104 15:31:38 <API> yes, I was thinking on the same
 105 15:31:48 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 106 15:31:55 <API> jjmarin told us that he couldn't come
 107 15:32:01 <API> but sent us a mail
 108 15:32:03 * API looking
 109 15:32:30 <clown> gnome a11y list?
 110 15:32:32 <jhernandez> API: what does "us" means?
 111 15:32:39 <joanie> me and api
 112 15:32:41 * clown doesn't see any email on that list.
 113 15:32:53 <clown> oh, well, aren''t you two special?
 114 15:32:54 <jhernandez> ok
 115 15:32:57 <clown> ;-)
 116 15:33:03 <joanie> clown: yes, yes we are :P
 117 15:33:03 <API> #info jjmarin said that nothing really new, but just to mention that on the FoG campaign we have nearly US $1k more that week before
 118 15:33:19 <clown> cool.
 119 15:33:19 <API> clown, no, sorry, he sent that email to joanie+me
 120 15:33:39 <API> soo, unless someone have more questions about marketing and fundraising
 121 15:33:41 <clown> no problem.
 122 15:33:49 <API> that probably we will not be able to answer
 123 15:33:57 <API> we could move to next point
 124 15:34:37 <API> #topic Reminder: Q4's are due
 125 15:34:42 <joanie> #info Q4s are still due. But we all have a repreive for a week (because no one but bugsquad turned theirs in)
 126 15:34:57 <joanie> #info Joanie will write the summary by the 24th
 127 15:35:14 <joanie> #action team members should write their notes for inclusion
 128 15:36:35 <joanie> that was all
 129 15:36:56 <API> well, it was really informative I really doubt any question
 130 15:36:58 <API> pople?
 131 15:36:59 <API> people?
 132 15:37:43 <jhernandez> link?
 133 15:38:13 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q4
 134 15:38:14 <jhernandez> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q4
 135 15:38:25 <jhernandez> #link http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q4
 136 15:38:34 <joanie> (it autolinks)
 137 15:38:41 <joanie> now it will be there three times ;)
 138 15:39:05 <jhernandez> :S
 139 15:39:53 <jhernandez> misc, please?
 140 15:39:57 <jhernandez> :P
 141 15:40:04 <API> yes, I think
 142 15:40:07 <API> that this point is over
 143 15:40:14 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 144 15:40:21 <API> time for short things not scheduled
 145 15:40:24 <API> jhernandez, ?
 146 15:40:26 <jhernandez> yes
 147 15:40:31 <API> I think that you wanted to say something
 148 15:40:54 <jhernandez> it's about macaroon and orca
 149 15:41:21 <jhernandez> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=660970
 150 15:41:21 <tota11y> 04Bug 660970: normal, Normal, ---, jhernandez, ASSIGNED, macaroon: Needs to be ported to pygi
 151 15:41:45 <jhernandez> eitan suggests moving macaroon into Orca
 152 15:42:01 <joanie> which I think is silly since Orca is a screen reader and not a macro tool
 153 15:42:21 <joanie> mind you, I don't actually use the recording bits of it
 154 15:42:32 <jhernandez> joanie: I agree with you
 155 15:42:38 <joanie> so if need be -- and if no one actually uses macaroon and if you don't want to maintain it
 156 15:42:39 <jhernandez> of course
 157 15:42:49 <joanie> I can copy the test running portion into Orca
 158 15:42:56 <joanie> and then you can remove it from accerciser completely
 159 15:43:13 * joanie hand-edits and hand-creates tests
 160 15:43:22 <jhernandez> well, my position is not to maintain it
 161 15:43:28 <joanie> ok
 162 15:43:38 <jhernandez> sorry
 163 15:43:44 <jhernandez> not to not maintaining
 164 15:43:45 <joanie> so I will add investigating the playback bits to Orca
 165 15:43:47 <jhernandez> it's no a problem
 166 15:43:56 <API> one question
 167 15:44:05 <API> macaroon is right now a accerciser thing
 168 15:44:06 <API> right?
 169 15:44:11 <joanie> right
 170 15:44:19 <jhernandez> but, maybe move  these regression tests into a ldtp based solution
 171 15:44:20 <joanie> submodule
 172 15:44:25 <clown> and what does macaroon do (in 25 words or less)?
 173 15:44:25 <jhernandez> API: yes
 174 15:44:26 <API> so what about a specific library for macaroon
 175 15:44:35 <prlw1> I don't what tests those macaroon "regression tests and performance analysis" are, but I would go for bnitz' a11ytesting for tests...
 176 15:44:38 <API> instead of moving it from accerciser to orca
 177 15:45:11 <prlw1> (the word "know" is missing from what I just wrote...)
 178 15:45:25 <API> prlw1, well, afaik, those macaroon tests are more low level that bnitz a11ytesting
 179 15:45:27 <API> but not sure
 180 15:45:44 <joanie> the performance analysis was never committed (and I've not seen it)
 181 15:45:56 <joanie> Orca has regression tests which use the macaroon playback code
 182 15:46:00 <joanie> which I've not looked at
 183 15:46:18 <joanie> not looked at == macaroon code
 184 15:46:53 <prlw1> API: then a11ytesting might need work to be able to carry the "low level" tests out ;-)
 185 15:47:43 <jhernandez> what I was trying to say is
 186 15:47:54 <jhernandez> nobody uses macaroon excpting orca
 187 15:48:07 <API> jhernandez, except orca? and accerciser?
 188 15:48:09 <joanie> (that we know of)
 189 15:48:28 <jhernandez> API: accerciser doesn't use macaroon
 190 15:48:32 <jhernandez> at all
 191 15:48:53 <API> jhernandez, ok, as it was at accerciser I thought that accerciser was using it
 192 15:49:24 <jhernandez> so, what about moving orca tests into a new testing framework?
 193 15:49:41 <joanie> jhernandez: why?
 194 15:50:11 <jhernandez> It's just an idea
 195 15:50:12 <API> that seems somewhat an overkill
 196 15:50:21 <joanie> here's what I propose:
 197 15:50:22 <jhernandez> orca tests are very low level
 198 15:50:31 <joanie> 1. Do what you want with macaroon
 199 15:50:34 <API> I mean that orca is already using a framework (macaroon)
 200 15:50:41 <joanie> 2. I will figure out what to do with the regression tests
 201 15:50:42 * API holding on
 202 15:50:49 <joanie> the orca regression test suite sucks
 203 15:50:58 <joanie> I am already writing new unit tests which don't use it
 204 15:50:59 <jhernandez> maybe we can move them into mago
 205 15:51:03 <joanie> maybe I'll ditch it
 206 15:51:08 <joanie> maybe I will use ldtp
 207 15:51:12 <joanie> maybe I will use mago
 208 15:51:23 <joanie> maybe I will just grab the playback code from macaroon
 209 15:51:32 <prlw1> maybe you will use a11ytesting (hello bnitz)
 210 15:51:52 <joanie> I do not think that what my plans are should stop jhernandez
 211 15:52:03 <joanie> and in the meantime, it's not like the code will be wiped from the planet
 212 15:52:08 <joanie> just from master and future releases
 213 15:52:13 <joanie> so I don't see this as a big deal
 214 15:52:30 <joanie> so jhernandez please remove it from accerciser ;)
 215 15:52:33 <joanie> how's that?
 216 15:52:34 <joanie> :)
 217 15:52:44 <bnitz> prwl1 , joanie let me know if you'd like to use a11ytesting (a branch of mago)
 218 15:52:48 <jhernandez> joanie: macaroon isn't a problem for me
 219 15:53:00 <joanie> bnitz: sure thanks
 220 15:53:19 <joanie> jhernandez: you raised the topic. I'm answering it.
 221 15:53:20 <jhernandez> I was talking about moving into a more high-level framework
 222 15:53:28 <joanie> well, you can do that too
 223 15:53:34 <joanie> but let's leave Orca out of it
 224 15:53:37 <joanie> Orca will adjust
 225 15:54:06 <jhernandez> ok
 226 15:54:25 <bnitz> mago+ldtp+a11ytesting is much higher level  but if you already have tests written it would take a while to port them.
 227 15:54:42 <bnitz> If maintenance is already a problem, it's probably worth looking into porting them.
 228 15:54:44 * jhernandez is done
 229 15:55:09 <API> jhernandez, btw, taking into account the time this required
 230 15:55:19 <API> this is the ideal example of a topic that should be added on the agenda
 231 15:55:23 <API> and not misc time :P
 232 15:55:29 <API> so, 5 minutes to the end
 233 15:55:38 <API> lets start the real miscellaneous time!
 234 15:55:41 <clown> I have some 3.4 updates.
 235 15:55:44 * joanie laughs
 236 15:55:45 <jhernandez> macaroon passed the gsettings and pygobject migration, so, it will live a little bit more time
 237 15:55:46 <clown> shall I proceed
 238 15:55:46 <API> ok, shot
 239 15:56:16 <clown> #info regarding the inverse video, and brightness-contrast effects for clutter
 240 15:56:31 * jhernandez done - done
 241 15:56:38 <clown> #info Neil Post, Ebassi, and I have been optimizing the code.
 242 15:56:58 <clown> #info Neil thinks it's nearly ready to be committed.
 243 15:57:15 <clown> #info the bad news:  Neil thinks the inverse video shader does not belong in clutter.
 244 15:57:31 <clown> #info He suggests moving back to Gnome Shell itself.
 245 15:57:38 <API> urgh
 246 15:57:40 <clown> #info but no firm decision has been made yet.
 247 15:57:44 <API> so, ping-pong effect?
 248 15:57:50 <clown> kind of.
 249 15:58:13 <clown> the reason to move to clutter was so it was available to other apps outside of GNOME Shell.
 250 15:58:18 <API> when you started that stuff on gnome-shell, who said that the inverse video shader didn't belong in gnome-shell?
 251 15:58:37 <clown> drag01 (forget his real name).
 252 15:58:50 <clown> Jasper (just remembered).
 253 15:59:13 <clown> and Jasper didn't say "it doesn't belong".  He thought it should be more widely available.
 254 15:59:41 <API> clown, ok
 255 15:59:47 <clown> more infos coming...
 256 16:00:13 <clown> #info  Using the effects in GNOME Shell are still problematic in that they don't work quite right.
 257 16:00:26 <clown> #info they worked back in the clutter 1.8 timeframe
 258 16:00:45 <clown> #info I am trying to figure out if it's a clutter issue, or a gnome shell issue, or both.
 259 16:01:03 <clown> and one more...
 260 16:01:28 <clown> #info AEGIS has asked that I write documentation about how to use the zoom options dialog.
 261 16:01:57 <clown> #info I will be adding a wiki page as a child of the Magnifier Page that gives this information.
 262 16:02:22 <clown> #info and, possibly use this as a start for user help.
 263 16:02:24 <clown> done.
 264 16:03:14 <API> clown, ok, make sense
 265 16:03:17 <API> and a final question
 266 16:03:22 <API> and we finisth the meeting
 267 16:03:38 <API> due all that stuff, it is still planned to be on GNOME 3.4?
 268 16:03:46 <API> or definitively it will be a 3.6 tihng?
 269 16:03:53 <clown> what is "it"?
 270 16:03:58 * API seems to have wider fingers
 271 16:04:11 * clown knows the feeling.
 272 16:04:14 <joanie> wider fingers?
 273 16:04:16 <API> it=inverse video, brightness
 274 16:04:36 <API> plan was having inverse video and brightness-contrast effect on GNOME Shell for 3.4
 275 16:04:41 <clown> it looks like brightness-contrast effect will be done in time (when is the final commit date?)
 276 16:04:49 <API> aha, but it seems that in clutter
 277 16:04:58 <API> or also available on GNOME shell?
 278 16:05:10 <clown> inverse video, if it has to move back to gnomeshell, will probably take longer (different set of reviewers).
 279 16:05:29 <clown> you make a good point API.
 280 16:05:52 <clown> there is also getting the gsettings schema committed.  three projects are involved here.
 281 16:06:04 <clown> clutter, gnome-shell, gsettings-destkop-schemas.
 282 16:06:09 <clown> hmm....
 283 16:06:30 <clown> it's going to close if it is to be in 3.4
 284 16:06:46 <API> clown, ok, in that case
 285 16:06:48 <API> good luck
 286 16:06:52 <clown> thanks.
 287 16:06:55 <API> and having said so
 288 16:07:02 <API> and as we are 5 minutes over time
 289 16:07:05 <API> meeting over!
 290 16:07:06 <API> thanks
 291 16:07:09 <API> and see you soon
 292 16:07:12 <API> #endmeeting