1 15:14:06 <API> #startmeeting
   2 15:14:06 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Dec  1 15:14:06 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 15:14:06 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 15:14:44 <API> #topic Hackfest Update
   5 15:14:53 <API> well, after talk with the people more involved
   6 15:15:05 <API> hmm info are a pretty thing
   7 15:15:13 <API> #info after talk with the people involved
   8 15:15:26 <API> #info and re-check office availability
   9 15:15:34 <API> #info we decide to go for week 03
  10 15:15:55 <API> so now we need to decide if we want a "classic" monday-friday hackfest
  11 15:16:06 <API> or something like tuesday-monday
  12 15:16:12 <API> webkitgtk folks are doing that
  13 15:16:22 <API> one of the reason are getting cheaper tickets
  14 15:16:31 <API> what do you think?
  15 15:16:40 <joanie> makes no difference to me
  16 15:16:43 <API> btw, company is not here but probably he would approve that
  17 15:16:58 <joanie> yeah, he mentioned something about avoidin weekend travel
  18 15:16:59 <API> I remember a long company post saying that
  19 15:17:01 <mgorse> yeah, iirc he was one of the people suggesting it
  20 15:17:49 <API> mgorse, so your preference?
  21 15:17:52 <API> fregl, ?
  22 15:18:00 <fregl> hi
  23 15:18:16 <jjmarin> Maybe it has been talked before, but maybe the Brno meeting can be reconsidered after reading Brian Cameron email in the foundation list ?
  24 15:18:33 <fregl> hm, I have no strong feelings either way
  25 15:18:44 <mgorse> haven't looked at prices so far... so I'll just say it doesn't make any difference to me
  26 15:19:03 <fregl> but fixing the date would be great
  27 15:19:13 <joanie> fregl: takes all the adventure out of it
  28 15:19:28 <mgorse> and the "will Alex be able to come?" suspence, etc
  29 15:19:28 <API> jjmarin, let me see that mail
  30 15:19:29 <API> a mon
  31 15:19:34 <jjmarin> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2011-November/msg00028.html
  32 15:19:54 <fregl> joanie: sure, but makes getting $company to pay for it a lot easier
  33 15:19:58 * API done
  34 15:20:02 <API> well, imho this is a bad idea
  35 15:20:19 <joanie> fregl: I was joking
  36 15:20:21 <API> he is saying that we will have an available room *if* we pay for it
  37 15:20:21 <clown> is "Alex"  surkov?
  38 15:20:29 * fregl likes adventure :p
  39 15:20:33 <joanie> :)
  40 15:21:01 * clown notes that surkov is currently in mozilla's #accessibility room, I could ping him is necessary.
  41 15:21:01 <mgorse> clown: yeah
  42 15:21:10 <joanie> clown: sure
  43 15:21:26 <API> and we would back to the problems of noise and need to share people and so on
  44 15:21:40 <API> and sincerely, I don't like the idea of going to plan d)
  45 15:21:57 <API> as people are saying now, it would be good to fix the dates
  46 15:21:59 <mgorse> API: The foundation would be "happy to discuss" covering costs, according to the email, but noise/overlap/etc might still be concerns, either way...
  47 15:22:10 <joanie> well, it's plan b redux API :P
  48 15:22:19 <API> mgorse, well, yeah, but that will mean that foundation will use money for a11y things
  49 15:22:22 <API> that we could use
  50 15:22:28 <API> for other things
  51 15:22:37 <API> joanie, plan b zombie
  52 15:22:43 * clown has pinged surkov.  waiting for reply...
  53 15:22:44 <joanie> :)
  54 15:23:29 <API> sooo
  55 15:23:37 <API> jjmarin, any good reason to go back to plan b=
  56 15:23:47 <joanie> hey alexsurkov
  57 15:23:52 <alexsurkov> hey, joanie
  58 15:24:12 <clown> hey alexsurkov.
  59 15:24:29 <alexsurkov> hey, clown
  60 15:25:41 <alexsurkov> btw, I'm fine with either option :) mon-fri, or tue-mon
  61 15:26:04 <joanie> another question is how many days do we need
  62 15:26:12 <joanie> so we really should do the agenda
  63 15:26:35 <joanie> task list, discussion versus hacking (I'd like to have so real development time this round)
  64 15:27:20 <API> well, I think that the usual 5 days hackfest is good
  65 15:27:36 <API> we should have something like that in mind
  66 15:27:47 <API> is enough to do something relevant
  67 15:27:53 <API> but not too long
  68 15:27:56 <joanie> API so wed-sun?
  69 15:28:40 <API> ah yes
  70 15:28:52 <API> for any reason I was putting out the weekend :P
  71 15:29:01 <API> but coruña doesn't have too many things to visit
  72 15:29:32 <joanie> and we're not here to entertain or be entertained regardless ;)
  73 15:29:35 <API> ok, lets try to make some decisions
  74 15:29:44 <joanie> nothing is preventing people from staying later/arriving earlier
  75 15:29:45 <API> lets propose a wed-sun hackfests
  76 15:29:49 <joanie> +1
  77 15:29:55 <API> as right now most people doesn't care
  78 15:30:10 <API> and the others prefer to avoid a mon-fri hackfest
  79 15:30:11 <API> so
  80 15:30:29 <API> #info For the moment we will propose a wed-sun hackfest, although it could change
  81 15:30:58 <API> #info Although Brian Cameron sent a mail about renting rooms at Brno for other hackfests, we will keep Coruña plan
  82 15:31:02 <joanie> so wed 18 Jan - Sun 22 Jan, yes?
  83 15:31:03 <alexsurkov> how much time do you want to give it to settle down?
  84 15:31:11 <API> hmm, not sure if "renting" is the proper word here
  85 15:31:19 <API> alexsurkov, not too many
  86 15:31:22 <API> much
  87 15:31:24 <joanie> alexsurkov: define "give it to settle down"
  88 15:31:28 <API> January is coming
  89 15:31:43 <alexsurkov> joanie: before we can be sure they won't change
  90 15:31:52 <joanie> aha
  91 15:31:55 <alexsurkov> I just need to start my visa
  92 15:32:07 <joanie> I propose API and I write the group today
  93 15:32:13 <joanie> group == of attendees
  94 15:32:15 <alexsurkov> great
  95 15:32:26 <joanie> and if no one objects in 24 hours, it's a done deal ;)
  96 15:32:27 <joanie> imho
  97 15:32:35 <joanie> most of the attendees are here
  98 15:32:39 <alexsurkov> sounds good :)
  99 15:32:42 <joanie> :)
 100 15:33:15 <API> ah, this is another thing to talk about
 101 15:33:29 <API> well, hackfests are public things, so anyone willing to come can come
 102 15:33:51 <API> so although we started by asking the people more involved, to be sure that will be there
 103 15:34:02 <API> I think that we should make a public announcement
 104 15:34:08 <API> as we didn't
 105 15:34:23 <API> well, meeting minutes are public, but I guess that you understand what I mean
 106 15:34:26 <API> opinions?
 107 15:34:43 <mgorse> I don't think we'll have a flood of new people wanting to be there, but agreed.
 108 15:34:44 <joanie> Once we have the agenda and dates, absolutely
 109 15:35:02 <alexsurkov> agree
 110 15:35:07 <clown> +1
 111 15:35:47 <API> #info once we got a agenda and official dates, we will send a public announcement/invitation to the list
 112 15:35:49 <API> ok, so
 113 15:35:52 <API> anything else?
 114 15:35:57 <API> doubts, questions=
 115 15:35:58 <API> ?
 116 15:38:12 <jjmarin> so exactly the dates are...
 117 15:38:42 <jjmarin> 18 --22 right ?
 118 15:38:56 <joanie> jjmarin: tentatively yes
 119 15:39:06 <joanie> API and I need to send an announcement to the must-haves
 120 15:39:09 <joanie> write an agenda
 121 15:39:14 <joanie> bla bla
 122 15:39:22 <jjmarin> ok, thank you
 123 15:39:22 <joanie> then we shall announce it (and the dates)
 124 15:39:32 * clown sounds like a couple of actions.
 125 15:39:35 <API> well, probably a pretty action
 126 15:39:41 <API> clow is faster than me ;)
 127 15:39:55 <API> #action API joanie (and others) will work on the agenda
 128 15:39:57 <clown> :-)
 129 15:40:22 <API> #action API will sent a mail with tentative days, as some people are not in the meeting
 130 15:40:44 <API> #action API after that, API will send a public announcement
 131 15:40:48 <API> ok, so lets move
 132 15:41:03 <API> there aren't too many topics, but lets try to go though all of them
 133 15:41:15 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
 134 15:41:20 <jjmarin> ok
 135 15:41:35 <jjmarin> #info the a11y FoG campaign will be launched pretty soon
 136 15:41:48 <jjmarin> #info Karen Sandler is looking for company fundraising
 137 15:42:09 <jjmarin> #info The amount of money to raise will depend on this support.
 138 15:42:50 <jjmarin> #info I asked her today and she told me luck by now :-(
 139 15:43:08 <jjmarin> #info Without any company support, probably the amount to raise will be 25k USD, though we hope to exceed it
 140 15:43:24 <jjmarin> #info Andreas Nilsson is working in the banner and progress bar
 141 15:43:41 <jjmarin> #info I was told the marketing team is working in the campaign text (this is a today piece of news, so I read yet)
 142 15:44:04 <jjmarin> #info As you may read in the a11y mailing list, it was proposed a testimonial page
 143 15:44:44 <jjmarin> #info Karen Sandler want to entitle 2012 the year of a11y
 144 15:45:06 * joanie refrains from making Chinese Zodiac jokes
 145 15:45:17 <clown> you just did, joanie!
 146 15:45:18 <jjmarin> :-)
 147 15:45:37 <jjmarin> Allan Day has suggested me to a short list of the tasks that the funds will be directed towards.
 148 15:45:46 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will write an indicative list of the tasks that the funds could be directed towards ;)
 149 15:45:53 <API> ein?
 150 15:45:59 <API> sorry, I don't understand it
 151 15:46:11 <API> we already said that roadmap would be a guide
 152 15:46:17 <API> of how that money could be used
 153 15:46:19 <API> soo
 154 15:46:31 <API> why we need a indicatie list of tasks?
 155 15:47:09 <jjmarin> API: something that common people can understand, something short
 156 15:47:39 <jjmarin> like the shopping list :-)
 157 15:48:11 <API> hmmm, people can't understand the roadmap?
 158 15:48:23 <clown> jjmarin, what is the relationship between the shopping list and the roadmap?
 159 15:48:34 <clown> I think API wants them to be the same.
 160 15:48:41 <API> well, it is true that it is long
 161 15:48:45 <jjmarin> the grade of complexity
 162 15:48:46 <joanie> roadmaps are hard! let's go shopping! (a11y barbie)
 163 15:48:53 <API> so, can be this task list something like:
 164 15:48:55 <API> Increased and Improved User and Developer Documentation
 165 15:48:55 <API> Improved Regression Testing Tools for Applications and Toolkits
 166 15:48:55 <API> Performance Evaluation and Improvement
 167 15:49:07 <jjmarin> yes
 168 15:49:10 <API> which is basically current roadmap headers
 169 15:49:17 <API> well, ok
 170 15:49:18 <jjmarin> yes
 171 15:49:24 <API> in this case it seems that this could be easy
 172 15:49:31 <API> sorry, I didn't understand this task list
 173 15:49:34 <jjmarin> I hope so :-)
 174 15:49:39 <API> I thought that it was a completely different thing
 175 15:50:15 <API> jjmarin, well, try just giving him those headers, and lets see if Alan Day is happy with that
 176 15:50:21 <API> btw, some context please
 177 15:50:24 <API> Alan Day is ...
 178 15:50:37 <API> one GNOME marketing guy?
 179 15:50:51 <API> s/Alan/Allan
 180 15:50:52 <jjmarin> an active member of the marketing team
 181 15:50:57 <API> jjmarin, ok
 182 15:52:01 <jjmarin> I will forward you the list to get your review
 183 15:52:52 <API> ok
 184 15:52:57 <API> well, anything else?
 185 15:52:59 <jjmarin> that's all, questions or suggestion or Can i go shopping ? :-)
 186 15:53:21 <clown> jjmarin, you can go shopping, but only if you have a list.
 187 15:53:53 <jjmarin> I prefer go shopping with my roadmap :-P
 188 15:53:54 <clown> and, can you pick me up a bottle of wine while you're at it?
 189 15:53:56 <API> this is not miscellaneous time!!
 190 15:53:56 <API> btw
 191 15:54:02 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 192 15:54:08 <API> this is miscellaneous time!!
 193 15:54:10 <API> this is madness!!
 194 15:54:13 <mgorse> s/not/now/
 195 15:54:16 <jjmarin> yeahh
 196 15:54:19 <clown> insanity reigns.
 197 15:54:29 <API> well, someone has anything else to mention not included on agenda
 198 15:54:31 <API> ?
 199 15:55:15 <mgorse> Nelson's post got me thinking that imo it would be good to have a way for an app to check if a screen reader / what other kind of AT is running. I can't remember if we've discussed this before and/or have a bug for it already
 200 15:55:38 <mgorse> but an app might want to, say present a tip for the user about a setting that can be customized if a screen reader is running, etc., so sometimes there might be a good reason for wanting to check
 201 15:56:32 <API> mgorse, yes we talked about that in the past
 202 15:56:46 <API> something like "registering ATs"
 203 15:56:49 <API> adding AT roles
 204 15:56:57 <API> something like AT_ROLE_SCREEN_READER
 205 15:57:08 <API> so you could ask for a list of ATs
 206 15:57:18 <API> and what are their purpose
 207 15:57:20 <mgorse> Do you remember if there's a bug? If not I think I'll check and add one if it isn't there
 208 15:57:26 <API> but, it was just talking
 209 15:57:29 <clown> that would be useful for something like Cloud4All
 210 15:57:31 <joanie> mgorse: I believe I filed one
 211 15:57:37 <API> probably there is a kind of brainstorming bug
 212 15:58:04 <API> yes, on April atk hackfest we created a lot of this kind of brainstorming bugs
 213 15:58:14 <mgorse> ok
 214 15:58:17 <API> so probably it is already created
 215 15:58:18 <API> so
 216 15:58:43 <bnitz> Is the screenreader available in the registry as an accessible object?  (that can assume roles?)
 217 15:58:46 <API> #action search for "AT registering" bug if exist, if not create it, include it on ATK agenda
 218 15:58:59 <API> bnitz, as an app
 219 15:59:05 <bnitz> Oh I suppose Orca would be yeah.
 220 15:59:06 <API> but not as a AT
 221 15:59:12 <bnitz> Sounds like a good idea.
 222 15:59:13 <API> I mean, that Orca is listed on the registry
 223 15:59:27 <bnitz> So the orca application would have that role.
 224 15:59:29 <API> but you don't know if it is an AT or not
 225 15:59:37 <API> one option could just add app roles
 226 15:59:41 <API> something like
 227 15:59:47 <API> APP_ROLE_NORMAL_APP
 228 15:59:54 <API> APP_ROLE_SCREEN_READER
 229 16:00:04 <API> as I said this is in brainstorming status
 230 16:00:14 <clown> APP_ROLE_BRAILLE_DISPLAY  (?)  etc.
 231 16:00:53 <joanie> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=649123
 232 16:00:53 <tota11y> 04Bug 649123: normal, Normal, ---, atk-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Create desktop-agnostic way to identify active/running ATs
 233 16:00:53 <joanie> ?
 234 16:01:25 <joanie> braille display is hardware
 235 16:01:26 <API> probably this is the meeting action solved more quickly
 236 16:01:31 <clown> my memory is fuzzy, but I think there are such app "roles" in the IMS access-for-all specification.
 237 16:01:38 <API> joanie, you have a new record
 238 16:01:55 <joanie> I have an old memory actually ;)
 239 16:02:11 <clown> joanie, yes braille display is hardware, but it's also an AT.
 240 16:02:54 * clown mulls that over...
 241 16:03:08 <bnitz> A specific AT_DEBUG role might help applications such as accerciser not get tangled up in themselves.
 242 16:03:45 <bnitz> Though I think there is already code in accerciser for preventing that, this might be cleaner.
 243 16:04:02 <mgorse> Right now it does something involving checking/comparing the application id, I think
 244 16:04:09 <bnitz> yes
 245 16:04:12 <API> well, this is too dense for miscelleaneous time ;)
 246 16:04:16 <API> and we are over time
 247 16:04:22 <API> so, anything else?
 248 16:04:32 <bnitz> Might be too dense but,
 249 16:04:33 <API> or can I close the meeting?
 250 16:04:40 <bnitz> I'll ask in a11y
 251 16:04:46 <API> but you have #a11y channel for that ;)
 252 16:04:48 <API> yes exactly
 253 16:05:05 <API> bnitz, you could also add your comments on that bug
 254 16:05:16 <API> as I said it is a kind of brainstorming bug
 255 16:05:19 <API> so any idea is welcome
 256 16:05:38 <bnitz> ok.  Thanks.
 257 16:06:54 <API> #endmeeting