1 14:36:53 <API> #startmeeting
   2 14:36:53 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Oct 13 14:36:53 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 14:36:53 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 14:37:14 * clown wants to know if it's saturday yet.
   5 14:37:17 <API> #topic Hackfest Planning
   6 14:37:34 <API> clown, im my case I feel like being living at monday
   7 14:37:35 <API> anyway
   8 14:37:44 <joanie> clown: yesterday was
   9 14:37:51 <clown> -)
  10 14:38:11 <joanie> Spanish do holidays based on when they should be without attempts to create a three-day weekend
  11 14:38:15 <API> #info During this week, and due different issues, JD and API were discussing other options for the hackfest
  12 14:38:35 <API> #info anyway, right now it seems that the most sensible/easy solution is making as proposed, during WebkitGTK hackfest
  13 14:38:48 <clown> Canada used to do that.  Still does with respect to July 1st (yes, I know, off topic).
  14 14:39:02 <API> #info so current plan is doing a merged hackfest
  15 14:39:20 <API> #info API sent a last-confirmation-mail to webkitgtk organizers to see if this is ok
  16 14:39:27 <API> questions, doubtsS?
  17 14:39:41 <joanie> #info Joanie is still wondering if we can have it at the same time and in the same city, but use an additional site
  18 14:39:52 <jjmarin> When webkitget will be hold ?
  19 14:40:11 <API> jjmarin, 29Nov-5Dec
  20 14:40:13 <API> ah, and btw
  21 14:40:35 <API> #info as it is planned a big webkitgtk hackfest, the idea is having a small and focused a11y hackfest
  22 14:40:55 <API> #info we can have a more general one (with all the a11y aspects) before-during-after GUADEC
  23 14:40:56 <joanie> in which the a11y people talk very, very quietly ;-)
  24 14:41:19 <jjmarin> :-)
  25 14:43:07 <joanie> anyhoo
  26 14:43:17 <joanie> the one other concern is visas
  27 14:43:30 <joanie> we need to plan on 4-6 weeks I think for Surkov
  28 14:43:38 <joanie> and we're at that period now
  29 14:44:17 <API> yes, I think that he can start to move that VISA thing
  30 14:44:40 <joanie> API are you following up with him or am I?
  31 14:45:02 <joanie> we also should probably alert the Board about our intentions
  32 14:45:22 <jjmarin> Yes I think is good idea to have a plan for the a11y hackfest
  33 14:45:22 <API> yes makes sense, we can decide that in the shadows
  34 14:45:25 <joanie> mgorse: did you verify your availability for those dates?
  35 14:45:40 <joanie> decide what in the shadows?
  36 14:45:52 <joanie> jjmarin: plans are for the weak
  37 14:45:56 <API> I mean that we can decide who will contact who after the meeting
  38 14:46:03 * joanie nods
  39 14:46:27 <joanie> #action Either Joanie or Piñeiro will get in touch with Alex Surkov and the Board about our plans.
  40 14:46:39 <mgorse> I don't think it will be a problem, but doing that now
  41 14:46:46 <joanie> thanks mgorse!
  42 14:47:13 <API> ok, lets move then
  43 14:47:29 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
  44 14:47:30 <API> jjmarin, ?
  45 14:47:37 <jjmarin> ok
  46 14:47:59 <jjmarin> #info The 21st Oct 15 at:00 UTC there will be a irc marketing meeting.
  47 14:48:27 <clown> a week from tomorrow.
  48 14:48:34 <jjmarin> yes
  49 14:48:42 <jjmarin> #Info I hope to have more concrete info about fundraising plans
  50 14:48:45 <joanie> 21st Oct 15?
  51 14:49:09 <jjmarin> 15:00
  52 14:49:09 <clown> joanie, yes, that's what jjmarin said...
  53 14:49:11 <jjmarin> sorry
  54 14:49:22 <API> about the performance thing, we are still talking with them
  55 14:49:33 <API> clown, what about your proposal?
  56 14:49:34 <jjmarin> should I redo the info thinf ?
  57 14:49:39 <joanie> jjmarin: nope
  58 14:49:54 <joanie> jjmarin: as long as I know what belongs in the minutes I can do it
  59 14:49:55 <clown> API, what about it?  It's there on the wiki page.
  60 14:50:11 <API> clown, ok
  61 14:50:18 <jjmarin> Yes, clown proposal is complete ;-)
  62 14:51:25 <jjmarin> #Info Juanjo is working to store the Bryen's a11y banners along with the US event box
  63 14:51:27 <clown> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
  64 14:52:04 <API> ok
  65 14:52:07 <API> jjmarin, anything else?
  66 14:52:09 <clown> there's a slot for ATK/AT-SPI scripting that's mostly empty...
  67 14:52:31 <jjmarin> No, it's all from my part :-)
  68 14:52:42 <clown> ok, jjmarin
  69 14:53:01 <joanie> jjmarin: for now I think we remove that scripting one
  70 14:53:08 <joanie> and possibly add some other items
  71 14:53:30 <joanie> BUT first I'd like to hear if the FoG is on or off
  72 14:53:37 <API> joanie, yes, makes sense, as that proposal is somewhat diffuse at the moment
  73 14:53:53 <joanie> as we all have better things to do than write proposals for non-existing fundraising events
  74 14:54:33 <jjmarin> joanie: for me it's ok. I want to check first the ideas from the marketing team to start a 11y fundraising campaign
  75 14:54:50 <joanie> thanks jjmarin!
  76 14:55:18 <joanie> Can I ask you to remove the scripting one and put some indication on the wiki that more will come -- once we know what the status is of the proposed FoG
  77 14:55:21 <joanie> ?
  78 14:55:30 <jjmarin> yes
  79 14:55:33 <jjmarin> np
  80 14:55:43 <joanie> using the "status" language rather than the "better things to do" language? ;-)
  81 14:55:45 <clown> need an action for that...
  82 14:56:49 <joanie> #action Juanjo will update the a11y FoG wiki page to remove the scripting-related proposal, as well as add an indication that additional proposals shall follow once we know the status and plans with respect to an A11y FoG.
  83 14:57:10 <joanie> thanks for the prompt clown :-)
  84 14:57:13 <jjmarin> joanie: You're faster than me ;-)
  85 14:57:24 <joanie> only in English ;-)
  86 14:57:50 <API> ok, so
  87 14:57:51 <API> moving?
  88 14:57:57 * joanie nods
  89 14:57:57 <jjmarin> yes
  90 14:58:24 <API> #topic GNOME 3.4 planning
  91 14:58:48 <API> well, last week I mentioned that we need to start to think on features and so on
  92 14:58:54 <clown> wlcm, joanie
  93 14:58:59 <joanie> #Info Joanie has not heard anything back from Patrick regarding her questions regarding Dasher.
  94 14:59:05 <joanie> #info Joanie has not heard anything back from Patrick regarding her questions regarding Dasher.
  95 14:59:09 <joanie> (caps counts)
  96 14:59:14 <clown> there's and echo in this room...
  97 14:59:21 <clown> "an"
  98 14:59:24 <API> but I really think that those features proposals should be going for the "usual" channels
  99 14:59:33 <joanie> #action Joanie will attempt to contact Patrick.
 100 14:59:37 <API> usual == desktop devel list
 101 14:59:38 <joanie> "usual" channels?
 102 14:59:54 <joanie> #info Joanie will do the introspection port of DOTS this weekend.
 103 14:59:55 <API> other people sent a mail to desktop-devel-list
 104 14:59:59 <API> like "XXX feature"
 105 15:00:02 <API> so
 106 15:00:11 <API> clown, what about send a mail to desktop-devel-list
 107 15:00:20 <joanie> but no one on ddl cares about our proposals ;-)
 108 15:00:21 <API> "contrast, bright controls on gnome-shell"
 109 15:00:31 <API> clown, or it is already accepted per se?
 110 15:00:31 <joanie> well, they care about clown's
 111 15:00:34 <clown> and focus/caret tracking — I could.
 112 15:00:41 <clown> they do???
 113 15:00:44 <API> joanie, but it is the way to propose things
 114 15:01:00 * joanie sighs
 115 15:01:03 * clown wonders why "they" don't tell him they care...
 116 15:01:05 <API> I mean that we can list the a11y features that we want
 117 15:01:21 <API> but in the end, it is supposed that new features should be discussed also there
 118 15:01:34 * joanie hopes API will do that in exchange for her following up with Patrick and doing the introspection port of DOTS
 119 15:02:03 * joanie continues to dislike "direct" and confrontational discussions
 120 15:02:29 <API> #action API will send pretty mails to desktop-devel-list proposing a11y features, after the green light and background from people taking care of it
 121 15:02:31 <joanie> clown: they care about your stuff, because it's in gnome-shell
 122 15:02:36 <API> clown, so, about your stuff
 123 15:02:40 <joanie> thanks API!! :-)
 124 15:02:41 <API> do you want me sending that mail?
 125 15:02:46 <API> do you need that it is needed?
 126 15:02:56 * joanie says "my hero" in her best southern drawl
 127 15:02:58 <API> I mean that people are already reviewing your patches
 128 15:03:17 <clown> yes, API.  It might actually be better coming from you, you being fearless leader and on the release team.
 129 15:03:32 <joanie> clown: :-) warm up your drawl
 130 15:03:36 <API> ok
 131 15:03:40 <API> I have your green light?
 132 15:04:02 <clown> anything you need from me API?  yes, i'm smiling with green teeth ;-)
 133 15:04:03 <jjmarin> API is our best voice in d-d-l  ;-)
 134 15:04:16 <API> anyway, as I said, in your case this should be easy, as you already started the work, and people are reviewing your patches
 135 15:04:17 <joanie> he's the only one who's not afraid ;-)
 136 15:04:35 <joanie> API btw, what about proposing the re-inclusion of the screen reader in the "access" menu?
 137 15:04:47 <API> joanie, btw, are we listing our 3.4 a11y feature proposals in any hidden wiki page?
 138 15:04:55 * API hidden for me at leasts
 139 15:05:02 <joanie> especially for GDM since as best as we can tell, you cannot start Orca for GDM rendering it useless
 140 15:05:07 <API> I have the feeling that we just talked about then on #a11y meetings
 141 15:05:20 <joanie> #action Joanie will create a 3.4 team features page
 142 15:05:30 <joanie> API: you're right. Thanks for the reminder
 143 15:05:52 <API> joanie, well, the thing is that when you propose a feature, it is supposed that you have someone taking care of it
 144 15:06:17 <joanie> API yeah, but... What are you refering to in particular?
 145 15:06:18 <API> in the case of add again Orca there, I guess that it is something to be
 146 15:06:23 <API> done by gnome-shell forlks
 147 15:06:30 <joanie> ah
 148 15:06:35 <API> I mean, that I can't propose a feature to be done by others
 149 15:06:41 <API> this is not a wish-list
 150 15:06:49 * joanie nods
 151 15:06:53 <API> is more a "I0m doing this, and I want to be included as a feature"
 152 15:06:57 <clown> joanie, there used to be "must-have" wiki page.  There is probably stuff there you can grab.
 153 15:07:02 * clown looks for that older page.
 154 15:07:06 <API> s/want to/want it to
 155 15:07:08 <joanie> clown: yeah I know
 156 15:07:17 <joanie> much of that will be carried over
 157 15:07:21 <joanie> and then ignored
 158 15:07:29 <joanie> strike that last line
 159 15:07:43 <API> btw, jjmarin as you are here, and we are talking about features
 160 15:07:48 <clown> understood, you old cynic.
 161 15:07:58 <API> what about eviacam?
 162 15:08:00 <API> hmm
 163 15:08:03 <API> wrong question
 164 15:08:16 <API> I meant, that you said that you planned to test wxwidgets and so on
 165 15:08:23 <clown> for the record http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo/Issues and http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo/NiceToHaves
 166 15:08:41 <joanie> clown: yup.
 167 15:08:56 <jjmarin> Well, GTK 3 support for wxwidgets is too inmature
 168 15:09:11 <jjmarin> I think we can try for GNOME 3.6
 169 15:09:26 <API> hmm, I'm wondering if all GNOME apps have migrated already to GTK 3
 170 15:09:35 <API> in that case, the issue is still wxwidgets
 171 15:09:49 <API> as if we propose eviacam to be the app
 172 15:09:50 <joanie> API not all, I don't think.
 173 15:09:56 <API> to solve one GNOME feature
 174 15:10:05 <API> we should also propose wxwidgets as a external dependency
 175 15:10:15 <jjmarin> I'll do my report about a11y wxwidget support these days
 176 15:10:34 <API> jjmarin, ok, I will wait for your report then
 177 15:10:41 <jjmarin> Basically I will test with orca and high contrast theme
 178 15:10:48 <API> if wxwidgets is accessible due support on gtk2
 179 15:10:56 <API> that will be fine
 180 15:11:00 <joanie> API some of the custom widgets are not
 181 15:11:07 <API> #action jjmarin will test a11y on wxwidgets
 182 15:11:30 <jjmarin> Yes, but they have customized widgets. It's not a 1:1 match
 183 15:11:35 <API> #action API will contact cesar mauri about using eviacam as a app fulfilling a GNOME feature
 184 15:12:13 <jjmarin> #Info Meg Ford has updated the info about her high contrast them work https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo/NiceToHaves#GNOME_Shell . Cosimo Cecchi will be the developer in charge of this
 185 15:12:15 <API> jjmarin, anyway, in this specific case, not sure if we should set as a requirement eviacam working 100% with Orca
 186 15:12:19 <mgorse> It's really a mess right now, what you have to do to make custom gtk widgets accessible for gtk 3
 187 15:12:27 <API> as it is also a AT and have different people
 188 15:12:50 <API> mgorse, jjmarin was talking about custom wxwidgets
 189 15:13:23 <mgorse> hmm
 190 15:13:27 <API> mgorse, and right now, if you make a custom gtk 3 widgets, AFAIK you can access to GtkWidgetAccessible
 191 15:13:29 <jjmarin> No, wxwigets use some GTK custom widgets
 192 15:13:32 <joanie> jjmarin: furthermore, Orca currently has some old hacks that pay attention to bogus events rather than the right events. I plan to remove those, but Orca isn't a proper testing tool in that regard.
 193 15:13:59 <joanie> jjmarin: therefore, you really need to test with accerciser. I can help you with that if you want/need.
 194 15:14:10 <jjmarin> I'll use accerciser
 195 15:14:14 <joanie> :-)
 196 15:14:40 <jjmarin> In fact, I used be say accerciser in first place
 197 15:15:02 <jjmarin> but orca is easier to say/think/pronounce :-)
 198 15:15:12 <joanie> mgorse: later on (not necessarily here) it might be good to learn more about what you've discovered w.r.t. custom widgets
 199 15:15:18 <API> mgorse, no sorry, Benjamin didn't expose new accessible widget headers
 200 15:15:33 <API> anyway, I think that this talking is somewhat off-topic in this meeting
 201 15:15:41 <API> so, going back to 3.4 planning
 202 15:15:47 <API> anything else in this point?
 203 15:15:54 <API> other feature we didn't talk about?
 204 15:17:20 <API> well, if we didn't talk about it, probably will appear when we start to create that feature page
 205 15:17:25 <API> where we==joanie
 206 15:17:26 <API> :P
 207 15:17:37 <API> so, moving on
 208 15:17:39 <joanie> I hear and obey oh leader of fearlessness
 209 15:17:45 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
 210 15:18:01 <API> something not included on the existing agenda that requires our attention?
 211 15:18:47 <joanie> How about "other people's bugs" and how to get those fixed? ;-)
 212 15:18:48 * clown tries unsuccesfully to imagine "I hear and obey oh leader of fearlessness" with a southern drawl.
 213 15:19:06 <mgorse> A few days ago, Nagappan was asking me if there's a way to get a key binding for a widget, other than AtkAction, since gtk apparently has some widgets with key bindings that don't implement it. Do people think this is a gtk bug (that it should implement atk action), or is it something that warrants discussion at a hackfest?
 214 15:19:22 <mgorse> ie, if that's the best way to expose key bindings
 215 15:19:37 <joanie> mgorse: I'd start with asking Benjamin
 216 15:19:57 <mgorse> heh  okay; that isn't a bad idea
 217 15:19:57 <joanie> but the AtkAction and Gtk keybinding stuff is definitely amongst the hackfest 2.0 agenda
 218 15:20:07 <API> Benjamin doesn't like too much atkaction
 219 15:20:18 <joanie> in some ways I agree with him
 220 15:20:18 <API> anyway, afaik this is how it is implemented right now, right?
 221 15:20:29 <API> joanie, yeah, as a lot of things, it can be improved
 222 15:20:43 <API> but for the moment, this seems the way to go
 223 15:20:48 <mgorse> right
 224 15:20:49 <joanie> it's implemented that way now in some cases
 225 15:20:52 <API> but yes, talking first with Benjamin has sense
 226 15:20:55 <joanie> mainly for mnemonic widgets
 227 15:20:57 <API> some cases?
 228 15:21:04 <API> how it is implemented in other cases?
 229 15:21:10 <joanie> although for combo boxes that's busted
 230 15:21:50 <joanie> #action Joanie is going to assemble a list of all the bugs in other people's modules, including this GtkScale one assuming it's not yet fixed.
 231 15:22:14 <joanie> s/GtkScale/GtkComboBox/
 232 15:23:06 <clown> not really miscellaneous, but we are supposed to be doing Q3 reports, right?
 233 15:23:16 <joanie> for those playing along at home that would be bug 659151
 234 15:23:16 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=659151 normal, Normal, ---, gtk-bugs, UNCONFIRMED, Cannot obtain accessible keybinding for comboboxes
 235 15:23:44 <jjmarin> clown: are we ?
 236 15:23:45 <joanie> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q3
 237 15:24:02 <joanie> #info Q3 ended 30 September
 238 15:24:03 <clown> jjmarin:  API had action from last week to remind us in an email...
 239 15:24:12 <API> clown, argh
 240 15:24:18 <clown> oh, maybe it's Q2 then.
 241 15:24:18 <API> yes, I forgot
 242 15:24:27 <joanie> clown: Q2 is already done
 243 15:24:35 <API> clown, no, I said Q2 but we already finished them
 244 15:24:41 <API> my bad, I was talking about q3
 245 15:24:45 <clown> then it's Q3 (I can't count by 4's apparently).
 246 15:24:54 <jjmarin> It is supposed we do the Q report after we are required to do so
 247 15:25:04 <jjmarin> doesn't it ?
 248 15:25:31 <joanie> http://foundation.gnome.org/reports/gnome-report-2011-Q2.html
 249 15:25:51 <joanie> jjmarin: First the quarter ends, then we write the report. :-)
 250 15:26:03 <joanie> takes all the challenge out of it, mind you
 251 15:26:35 <clown> from last week's minutes:  http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20111006#Quarterly_Reports
 252 15:26:35 <joanie> omg I just read the q2 RT report
 253 15:27:09 <joanie> Whose brilliant idea was it to use the phrase "Mundane tasks" in a quarterly??
 254 15:27:45 <joanie> strike those lines from the minutes ;-)
 255 15:28:14 <joanie> btw API apparently your work is mundane :-P
 256 15:28:16 <clown> hee, hee
 257 15:28:31 <API> of course
 258 15:28:35 <joanie> miscellaneous time is miscellaneous
 259 15:28:39 <API> I don't work on heaven yet
 260 15:28:47 <clown> lol
 261 15:28:55 <clown> when do you start?
 262 15:29:01 <API> tomorrow
 263 15:29:12 <clown> sounds like a plan.
 264 15:29:13 <joanie> anyhoo, clown what I believe happened during the last meeting is that the Q2's were announced. That mean's Q3's are likely due before too terribly long.
 265 15:29:38 <joanie> API I think if you sell your soul, that job offering is rescinded. That's what they told me anyway.
 266 15:29:50 <clown> joanie, gotcha.  well, I'll add something to the wiki page in the next couple of days.
 267 15:29:56 <joanie> thanks!
 268 15:30:15 <joanie> another actual misc item:
 269 15:30:20 <jjmarin> We can add part of the release notes to the Q3 report
 270 15:30:28 <clown> FYI:  https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q3
 271 15:30:37 <joanie> glancing at the bugsquad q2....
 272 15:30:51 <joanie> is it time to propose gnome-speech and gnome-mag for deprecation?
 273 15:31:05 <mgorse> Hmm? They aren't already deprecated?
 274 15:31:18 <joanie> mgorse: functionally yes, but not in bugzilla, etc.
 275 15:31:19 <clown> the corba gnome-mag is de facto deprecated.
 276 15:31:20 <jjmarin> just to make it official :-)
 277 15:31:32 <clown> did anyone finish to port for dbus?
 278 15:31:37 <joanie> but as I said, looking at the Q2....
 279 15:31:41 <joanie> Several products have been closed for new bug entry and have been moved to the "Deprecated" classification, such as at-poke, fast-user-switch-applet, resapplet and Sawfish.
 280 15:31:55 <API> and gok
 281 15:32:10 <joanie> API I thought it already was
 282 15:32:33 <joanie> anyhoo, any objections to my requesting they be marked as deprecated in terms of GNOME infrastructure?
 283 15:32:34 <API> well, the issue with this stuff if that is deprecated because nobody takes care of them
 284 15:32:45 <API> that includes "someone proposing them as deprecated"
 285 15:32:53 <API> no objection from my side
 286 15:33:00 <jjmarin> not from me at least
 287 15:33:01 <clown> +1, joanie
 288 15:33:40 <joanie> #action Joanie will verify that GOK, gnome-speech, and gnome-mag are not yet deprecated in terms of the GNOME infrastructure and, if they are indeed not, send a message to the bugsquad m.l. suggesting that they be.
 289 15:34:05 <jjmarin> RIP gnome-speech and gnome-mag. They served us well
 290 15:34:21 * clown just noticed that gnome-mag was worked as late as last April — translations.
 291 15:34:40 <joanie> clown: because it has not been deprecated in terms of the infrastructure
 292 15:34:49 <clown> yeah, good point, joanie
 293 15:35:01 <API> ok, so as we are alrady over time
 294 15:35:02 <joanie> #action Joanie will also be sure to follow-up with the i18n team to remove these modules from damnedlies
 295 15:35:07 <API> anything else for miscellaneous?
 296 15:35:39 <jjmarin> lalala no
 297 15:35:44 <joanie> heh
 298 15:35:47 <clown> nice voice, jjmarin
 299 15:36:11 <jjmarin> thanks, you are a good audience :-)
 300 15:36:21 <API> #endmeeting