14:36:53 #startmeeting 14:36:53 Meeting started Thu Oct 13 14:36:53 2011 UTC. The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:36:53 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 14:37:14 * clown wants to know if it's saturday yet. 14:37:17 #topic Hackfest Planning 14:37:34 clown, im my case I feel like being living at monday 14:37:35 anyway 14:37:44 clown: yesterday was 14:37:51 -) 14:38:11 Spanish do holidays based on when they should be without attempts to create a three-day weekend 14:38:15 #info During this week, and due different issues, JD and API were discussing other options for the hackfest 14:38:35 #info anyway, right now it seems that the most sensible/easy solution is making as proposed, during WebkitGTK hackfest 14:38:48 Canada used to do that. Still does with respect to July 1st (yes, I know, off topic). 14:39:02 #info so current plan is doing a merged hackfest 14:39:20 #info API sent a last-confirmation-mail to webkitgtk organizers to see if this is ok 14:39:27 questions, doubtsS? 14:39:41 #info Joanie is still wondering if we can have it at the same time and in the same city, but use an additional site 14:39:52 When webkitget will be hold ? 14:40:11 jjmarin, 29Nov-5Dec 14:40:13 ah, and btw 14:40:35 #info as it is planned a big webkitgtk hackfest, the idea is having a small and focused a11y hackfest 14:40:55 #info we can have a more general one (with all the a11y aspects) before-during-after GUADEC 14:40:56 in which the a11y people talk very, very quietly ;-) 14:41:19 :-) 14:43:07 anyhoo 14:43:17 the one other concern is visas 14:43:30 we need to plan on 4-6 weeks I think for Surkov 14:43:38 and we're at that period now 14:44:17 yes, I think that he can start to move that VISA thing 14:44:40 API are you following up with him or am I? 14:45:02 we also should probably alert the Board about our intentions 14:45:22 Yes I think is good idea to have a plan for the a11y hackfest 14:45:22 yes makes sense, we can decide that in the shadows 14:45:25 mgorse: did you verify your availability for those dates? 14:45:40 decide what in the shadows? 14:45:52 jjmarin: plans are for the weak 14:45:56 I mean that we can decide who will contact who after the meeting 14:46:03 * joanie nods 14:46:27 #action Either Joanie or Piñeiro will get in touch with Alex Surkov and the Board about our plans. 14:46:39 I don't think it will be a problem, but doing that now 14:46:46 thanks mgorse! 14:47:13 ok, lets move then 14:47:29 #topic Marketing and Fundraising 14:47:30 jjmarin, ? 14:47:37 ok 14:47:59 #info The 21st Oct 15 at:00 UTC there will be a irc marketing meeting. 14:48:27 a week from tomorrow. 14:48:34 yes 14:48:42 #Info I hope to have more concrete info about fundraising plans 14:48:45 21st Oct 15? 14:49:09 15:00 14:49:09 joanie, yes, that's what jjmarin said... 14:49:11 sorry 14:49:22 about the performance thing, we are still talking with them 14:49:33 clown, what about your proposal? 14:49:34 should I redo the info thinf ? 14:49:39 jjmarin: nope 14:49:54 jjmarin: as long as I know what belongs in the minutes I can do it 14:49:55 API, what about it? It's there on the wiki page. 14:50:11 clown, ok 14:50:18 Yes, clown proposal is complete ;-) 14:51:25 #Info Juanjo is working to store the Bryen's a11y banners along with the US event box 14:51:27 https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG 14:52:04 ok 14:52:07 jjmarin, anything else? 14:52:09 there's a slot for ATK/AT-SPI scripting that's mostly empty... 14:52:31 No, it's all from my part :-) 14:52:42 ok, jjmarin 14:53:01 jjmarin: for now I think we remove that scripting one 14:53:08 and possibly add some other items 14:53:30 BUT first I'd like to hear if the FoG is on or off 14:53:37 joanie, yes, makes sense, as that proposal is somewhat diffuse at the moment 14:53:53 as we all have better things to do than write proposals for non-existing fundraising events 14:54:33 joanie: for me it's ok. I want to check first the ideas from the marketing team to start a 11y fundraising campaign 14:54:50 thanks jjmarin! 14:55:18 Can I ask you to remove the scripting one and put some indication on the wiki that more will come -- once we know what the status is of the proposed FoG 14:55:21 ? 14:55:30 yes 14:55:33 np 14:55:43 using the "status" language rather than the "better things to do" language? ;-) 14:55:45 need an action for that... 14:56:49 #action Juanjo will update the a11y FoG wiki page to remove the scripting-related proposal, as well as add an indication that additional proposals shall follow once we know the status and plans with respect to an A11y FoG. 14:57:10 thanks for the prompt clown :-) 14:57:13 joanie: You're faster than me ;-) 14:57:24 only in English ;-) 14:57:50 ok, so 14:57:51 moving? 14:57:57 * joanie nods 14:57:57 yes 14:58:24 #topic GNOME 3.4 planning 14:58:48 well, last week I mentioned that we need to start to think on features and so on 14:58:54 wlcm, joanie 14:58:59 #Info Joanie has not heard anything back from Patrick regarding her questions regarding Dasher. 14:59:05 #info Joanie has not heard anything back from Patrick regarding her questions regarding Dasher. 14:59:09 (caps counts) 14:59:14 there's and echo in this room... 14:59:21 "an" 14:59:24 but I really think that those features proposals should be going for the "usual" channels 14:59:33 #action Joanie will attempt to contact Patrick. 14:59:37 usual == desktop devel list 14:59:38 "usual" channels? 14:59:54 #info Joanie will do the introspection port of DOTS this weekend. 14:59:55 other people sent a mail to desktop-devel-list 14:59:59 like "XXX feature" 15:00:02 so 15:00:11 clown, what about send a mail to desktop-devel-list 15:00:20 but no one on ddl cares about our proposals ;-) 15:00:21 "contrast, bright controls on gnome-shell" 15:00:31 clown, or it is already accepted per se? 15:00:31 well, they care about clown's 15:00:34 and focus/caret tracking — I could. 15:00:41 they do??? 15:00:44 joanie, but it is the way to propose things 15:01:00 * joanie sighs 15:01:03 * clown wonders why "they" don't tell him they care... 15:01:05 I mean that we can list the a11y features that we want 15:01:21 but in the end, it is supposed that new features should be discussed also there 15:01:34 * joanie hopes API will do that in exchange for her following up with Patrick and doing the introspection port of DOTS 15:02:03 * joanie continues to dislike "direct" and confrontational discussions 15:02:29 #action API will send pretty mails to desktop-devel-list proposing a11y features, after the green light and background from people taking care of it 15:02:31 clown: they care about your stuff, because it's in gnome-shell 15:02:36 clown, so, about your stuff 15:02:40 thanks API!! :-) 15:02:41 do you want me sending that mail? 15:02:46 do you need that it is needed? 15:02:56 * joanie says "my hero" in her best southern drawl 15:02:58 I mean that people are already reviewing your patches 15:03:17 yes, API. It might actually be better coming from you, you being fearless leader and on the release team. 15:03:32 clown: :-) warm up your drawl 15:03:36 ok 15:03:40 I have your green light? 15:04:02 anything you need from me API? yes, i'm smiling with green teeth ;-) 15:04:03 API is our best voice in d-d-l ;-) 15:04:16 anyway, as I said, in your case this should be easy, as you already started the work, and people are reviewing your patches 15:04:17 he's the only one who's not afraid ;-) 15:04:35 API btw, what about proposing the re-inclusion of the screen reader in the "access" menu? 15:04:47 joanie, btw, are we listing our 3.4 a11y feature proposals in any hidden wiki page? 15:04:55 * API hidden for me at leasts 15:05:02 especially for GDM since as best as we can tell, you cannot start Orca for GDM rendering it useless 15:05:07 I have the feeling that we just talked about then on #a11y meetings 15:05:20 #action Joanie will create a 3.4 team features page 15:05:30 API: you're right. Thanks for the reminder 15:05:52 joanie, well, the thing is that when you propose a feature, it is supposed that you have someone taking care of it 15:06:17 API yeah, but... What are you refering to in particular? 15:06:18 in the case of add again Orca there, I guess that it is something to be 15:06:23 done by gnome-shell forlks 15:06:30 ah 15:06:35 I mean, that I can't propose a feature to be done by others 15:06:41 this is not a wish-list 15:06:49 * joanie nods 15:06:53 is more a "I0m doing this, and I want to be included as a feature" 15:06:57 joanie, there used to be "must-have" wiki page. There is probably stuff there you can grab. 15:07:02 * clown looks for that older page. 15:07:06 s/want to/want it to 15:07:08 clown: yeah I know 15:07:17 much of that will be carried over 15:07:21 and then ignored 15:07:29 strike that last line 15:07:43 btw, jjmarin as you are here, and we are talking about features 15:07:48 understood, you old cynic. 15:07:58 what about eviacam? 15:08:00 hmm 15:08:03 wrong question 15:08:16 I meant, that you said that you planned to test wxwidgets and so on 15:08:23 for the record http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo/Issues and http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo/NiceToHaves 15:08:41 clown: yup. 15:08:56 Well, GTK 3 support for wxwidgets is too inmature 15:09:11 I think we can try for GNOME 3.6 15:09:26 hmm, I'm wondering if all GNOME apps have migrated already to GTK 3 15:09:35 in that case, the issue is still wxwidgets 15:09:49 as if we propose eviacam to be the app 15:09:50 API not all, I don't think. 15:09:56 to solve one GNOME feature 15:10:05 we should also propose wxwidgets as a external dependency 15:10:15 I'll do my report about a11y wxwidget support these days 15:10:34 jjmarin, ok, I will wait for your report then 15:10:41 Basically I will test with orca and high contrast theme 15:10:48 if wxwidgets is accessible due support on gtk2 15:10:56 that will be fine 15:11:00 API some of the custom widgets are not 15:11:07 #action jjmarin will test a11y on wxwidgets 15:11:30 Yes, but they have customized widgets. It's not a 1:1 match 15:11:35 #action API will contact cesar mauri about using eviacam as a app fulfilling a GNOME feature 15:12:13 #Info Meg Ford has updated the info about her high contrast them work https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo/NiceToHaves#GNOME_Shell . Cosimo Cecchi will be the developer in charge of this 15:12:15 jjmarin, anyway, in this specific case, not sure if we should set as a requirement eviacam working 100% with Orca 15:12:19 It's really a mess right now, what you have to do to make custom gtk widgets accessible for gtk 3 15:12:27 as it is also a AT and have different people 15:12:50 mgorse, jjmarin was talking about custom wxwidgets 15:13:23 hmm 15:13:27 mgorse, and right now, if you make a custom gtk 3 widgets, AFAIK you can access to GtkWidgetAccessible 15:13:29 No, wxwigets use some GTK custom widgets 15:13:32 jjmarin: furthermore, Orca currently has some old hacks that pay attention to bogus events rather than the right events. I plan to remove those, but Orca isn't a proper testing tool in that regard. 15:13:59 jjmarin: therefore, you really need to test with accerciser. I can help you with that if you want/need. 15:14:10 I'll use accerciser 15:14:14 :-) 15:14:40 In fact, I used be say accerciser in first place 15:15:02 but orca is easier to say/think/pronounce :-) 15:15:12 mgorse: later on (not necessarily here) it might be good to learn more about what you've discovered w.r.t. custom widgets 15:15:18 mgorse, no sorry, Benjamin didn't expose new accessible widget headers 15:15:33 anyway, I think that this talking is somewhat off-topic in this meeting 15:15:41 so, going back to 3.4 planning 15:15:47 anything else in this point? 15:15:54 other feature we didn't talk about? 15:17:20 well, if we didn't talk about it, probably will appear when we start to create that feature page 15:17:25 where we==joanie 15:17:26 :P 15:17:37 so, moving on 15:17:39 I hear and obey oh leader of fearlessness 15:17:45 #topic Miscellaneous time 15:18:01 something not included on the existing agenda that requires our attention? 15:18:47 How about "other people's bugs" and how to get those fixed? ;-) 15:18:48 * clown tries unsuccesfully to imagine "I hear and obey oh leader of fearlessness" with a southern drawl. 15:19:06 A few days ago, Nagappan was asking me if there's a way to get a key binding for a widget, other than AtkAction, since gtk apparently has some widgets with key bindings that don't implement it. Do people think this is a gtk bug (that it should implement atk action), or is it something that warrants discussion at a hackfest? 15:19:22 ie, if that's the best way to expose key bindings 15:19:37 mgorse: I'd start with asking Benjamin 15:19:57 heh okay; that isn't a bad idea 15:19:57 but the AtkAction and Gtk keybinding stuff is definitely amongst the hackfest 2.0 agenda 15:20:07 Benjamin doesn't like too much atkaction 15:20:18 in some ways I agree with him 15:20:18 anyway, afaik this is how it is implemented right now, right? 15:20:29 joanie, yeah, as a lot of things, it can be improved 15:20:43 but for the moment, this seems the way to go 15:20:48 right 15:20:49 it's implemented that way now in some cases 15:20:52 but yes, talking first with Benjamin has sense 15:20:55 mainly for mnemonic widgets 15:20:57 some cases? 15:21:04 how it is implemented in other cases? 15:21:10 although for combo boxes that's busted 15:21:50 #action Joanie is going to assemble a list of all the bugs in other people's modules, including this GtkScale one assuming it's not yet fixed. 15:22:14 s/GtkScale/GtkComboBox/ 15:23:06 not really miscellaneous, but we are supposed to be doing Q3 reports, right? 15:23:16 for those playing along at home that would be bug 659151 15:23:16 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=659151 normal, Normal, ---, gtk-bugs, UNCONFIRMED, Cannot obtain accessible keybinding for comboboxes 15:23:44 clown: are we ? 15:23:45 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q3 15:24:02 #info Q3 ended 30 September 15:24:03 jjmarin: API had action from last week to remind us in an email... 15:24:12 clown, argh 15:24:18 oh, maybe it's Q2 then. 15:24:18 yes, I forgot 15:24:27 clown: Q2 is already done 15:24:35 clown, no, I said Q2 but we already finished them 15:24:41 my bad, I was talking about q3 15:24:45 then it's Q3 (I can't count by 4's apparently). 15:24:54 It is supposed we do the Q report after we are required to do so 15:25:04 doesn't it ? 15:25:31 http://foundation.gnome.org/reports/gnome-report-2011-Q2.html 15:25:51 jjmarin: First the quarter ends, then we write the report. :-) 15:26:03 takes all the challenge out of it, mind you 15:26:35 from last week's minutes: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20111006#Quarterly_Reports 15:26:35 omg I just read the q2 RT report 15:27:09 Whose brilliant idea was it to use the phrase "Mundane tasks" in a quarterly?? 15:27:45 strike those lines from the minutes ;-) 15:28:14 btw API apparently your work is mundane :-P 15:28:16 hee, hee 15:28:31 of course 15:28:35 miscellaneous time is miscellaneous 15:28:39 I don't work on heaven yet 15:28:47 lol 15:28:55 when do you start? 15:29:01 tomorrow 15:29:12 sounds like a plan. 15:29:13 anyhoo, clown what I believe happened during the last meeting is that the Q2's were announced. That mean's Q3's are likely due before too terribly long. 15:29:38 API I think if you sell your soul, that job offering is rescinded. That's what they told me anyway. 15:29:50 joanie, gotcha. well, I'll add something to the wiki page in the next couple of days. 15:29:56 thanks! 15:30:15 another actual misc item: 15:30:20 We can add part of the release notes to the Q3 report 15:30:28 FYI: https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q3 15:30:37 glancing at the bugsquad q2.... 15:30:51 is it time to propose gnome-speech and gnome-mag for deprecation? 15:31:05 Hmm? They aren't already deprecated? 15:31:18 mgorse: functionally yes, but not in bugzilla, etc. 15:31:19 the corba gnome-mag is de facto deprecated. 15:31:20 just to make it official :-) 15:31:32 did anyone finish to port for dbus? 15:31:37 but as I said, looking at the Q2.... 15:31:41 Several products have been closed for new bug entry and have been moved to the "Deprecated" classification, such as at-poke, fast-user-switch-applet, resapplet and Sawfish. 15:31:55 and gok 15:32:10 API I thought it already was 15:32:33 anyhoo, any objections to my requesting they be marked as deprecated in terms of GNOME infrastructure? 15:32:34 well, the issue with this stuff if that is deprecated because nobody takes care of them 15:32:45 that includes "someone proposing them as deprecated" 15:32:53 no objection from my side 15:33:00 not from me at least 15:33:01 +1, joanie 15:33:40 #action Joanie will verify that GOK, gnome-speech, and gnome-mag are not yet deprecated in terms of the GNOME infrastructure and, if they are indeed not, send a message to the bugsquad m.l. suggesting that they be. 15:34:05 RIP gnome-speech and gnome-mag. They served us well 15:34:21 * clown just noticed that gnome-mag was worked as late as last April — translations. 15:34:40 clown: because it has not been deprecated in terms of the infrastructure 15:34:49 yeah, good point, joanie 15:35:01 ok, so as we are alrady over time 15:35:02 #action Joanie will also be sure to follow-up with the i18n team to remove these modules from damnedlies 15:35:07 anything else for miscellaneous? 15:35:39 lalala no 15:35:44 heh 15:35:47 nice voice, jjmarin 15:36:11 thanks, you are a good audience :-) 15:36:21 #endmeeting