1 14:35:37 <joanie> #startmeeting
   2 14:35:37 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Sep 29 14:35:37 2011 UTC.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 14:35:37 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 14:35:51 <joanie> #topic Hackfest Planning
   5 14:36:05 <joanie> in the spirit of efficiency
   6 14:36:08 * joanie infos
   7 14:36:30 <joanie> #info We have talked about having another hackfest -- in particular a follow-up ATK/AT-SPI hackfest.
   8 14:36:56 <joanie> #info Benjamin suggested that we might be able to attach it at or around the WebKitGtk hackfest since a number of us plan to be at both.
   9 14:37:24 <joanie> #info Piñeiro has checked with the WebKitGtk hackfest planners. Their proposed hackfest is 29 Nov - 5 Dec.
  10 14:37:54 <joanie> #info Piñeiro has also told me that doing it before is problematic due to conflicts with other events and doing it after conflicts with Spanish holidays.
  11 14:38:51 <joanie> #info Thus the proposal is this: Are those people interested in the Atk/AT-SPI hackfest able to come to Spain 29 Nov - 5 December? If so, we'll check with the WebKitGtk folks about coordinating this.
  12 14:38:59 <joanie> So.... Thoughts?
  13 14:39:30 <clown> will remote attending be a possibility?
  14 14:39:43 <joanie> I dunno, but we can ask.
  15 14:39:45 <clown> at best, I'd want to be a fly on the wall...
  16 14:40:07 <clown> and going all the way to Spain for wall sitting is suboptimal.
  17 14:40:09 <joanie> #action Joanie will check with Piñeiro to see if remote attending of the proposed ATK/AT-SPI hackfest is a possibility.
  18 14:40:24 <mgorse> now I'm wondering if there are many people who would want to be at both
  19 14:40:26 <clown> thanks
  20 14:40:43 <joanie> mgorse: I would, Mario Sanchez would, Benjamin likely would
  21 14:40:46 <mgorse> might just require careful coordination if we end up doing it then
  22 14:41:03 <joanie> But what I'm thinking is that we do exactly that: Plan carefully/wisely
  23 14:41:17 <mgorse> might depend how much of everything everyone needs to be at, how well it would work
  24 14:41:31 * joanie nods
  25 14:41:44 <joanie> mgorse: So if we do this, do those dates work for you?
  26 14:41:52 <joanie> aleiva: What about you?
  27 14:42:02 <jjmarin> I think Spanish holidays mainly affects the Spanish attenders if they want to take some days free I think
  28 14:42:06 <aleiva> personally I prefer in the beggining of next year
  29 14:42:08 <mgorse> afaik they do
  30 14:42:32 <aleiva> I need to check the dates
  31 14:42:43 <joanie> aleiva: That might be "too late" in the year. Benjamin thinks it makes sense to have it earlier. And I agree with him.
  32 14:42:59 <joanie> fregl: What about you?
  33 14:42:59 <aleiva> what is the main reason?
  34 14:43:13 <joanie> aleiva: There's stuff that needs to be decided now
  35 14:43:27 <mgorse> Ben wanted to possibly make changes for 3.4, and RHEL 7 will be based on the next GNOME
  36 14:43:35 <aleiva> aha ok
  37 14:43:59 <mgorse> and getting changes into 3.4 would help anyway, since it would allow other people to start making any changes we agree on
  38 14:44:04 <aleiva> now I can say maybe yes, javi and me
  39 14:44:17 <joanie> aleiva: awesome! Please check
  40 14:44:42 <aleiva> but I need to check
  41 14:44:44 <joanie> fregl is the other "must have" in the room. But I'm guessing he's not around.
  42 14:45:22 <joanie> Ok, so conclusions
  43 14:45:40 <joanie> #info Ale needs to check about his availability. And we need to be sure Frederik can attend.
  44 14:45:45 <joanie> anything else on this front?
  45 14:45:49 <aleiva> and what about from 28 nov to 4 dec ?
  46 14:46:00 <aleiva> monday to sunday
  47 14:46:02 <joanie> I think monday is bad
  48 14:46:12 <aleiva> personally I prefer a whole week
  49 14:46:34 <joanie> Well, we do what we can.
  50 14:46:49 <aleiva> ok
  51 14:47:21 * joanie moves on
  52 14:47:31 <joanie> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
  53 14:47:34 <joanie> jjmarin: floor is yours
  54 14:47:48 <jjmarin> #info Marketing team has been focused in the 3.2 release.
  55 14:47:59 <jjmarin> #info GNOME A11y has recieved some nice words of praised from Juan Conde,
  56 14:48:19 <jjmarin> #info Chief Free Softaware Officer of the Junta de Andalucía , in the Press Notes
  57 14:48:43 * API_afk just lurking, im not here
  58 14:48:50 <jjmarin> Release notes has been published with the sections we worked in the
  59 14:48:53 * clown waves are API_afk, in the bushes.
  60 14:49:00 <jjmarin> previous weeks
  61 14:49:00 * clown "at"
  62 14:49:13 <jjmarin> http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.2/#rna11y  and
  63 14:49:20 <jjmarin> http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.2/#rnlookingforward-a11y
  64 14:49:32 <joanie> btw jjmarin I noticed they weren't altered that much from the draft
  65 14:49:40 <joanie> which was nice to see
  66 14:49:58 * joanie hates suprises
  67 14:50:03 <jjmarin> yes, it is quite similar to the draft we sent :-)
  68 14:50:16 <joanie> awesomesauce
  69 14:50:18 <jjmarin> #info The Marketing will probably have regular meetings and Juanjo hopes to get some
  70 14:50:28 <jjmarin> #info information about fundaraising campaign in these meetings to bring here
  71 14:50:47 <jjmarin> well, nothing more new in this camp
  72 14:50:54 <joanie> okay, so there isn't any update on yes FoG versus no FoG?
  73 14:51:04 <jjmarin> nop
  74 14:51:09 * joanie nods
  75 14:51:30 <joanie> any questions/discussion re marketing from anyone else?
  76 14:51:33 <jjmarin> I want to get this info in the meetings that are supposed to be set soon
  77 14:52:08 <joanie> Oh I just thought of something....
  78 14:52:32 <joanie> #info Joanie completely forgot about her action item to ping people on the mailing list about CSUN call for papers ending 30 Sept.
  79 14:52:36 <joanie> (sorry guys)
  80 14:52:50 <joanie> #info Joanie suspects, however, there will be an extension.
  81 14:52:51 * clown CSUN themselves alerted me — no problem.
  82 14:53:18 <joanie> #info So we should continue thinking about what we might be able and/or should present about GNOME at CSUN.
  83 14:53:39 <joanie> clown: bets on the extension probability?
  84 14:53:49 <clown> 2 to 1 ?
  85 14:53:55 <joanie> I think they've extended for the past 4 years
  86 14:53:58 <joanie> :-)
  87 14:54:15 <joanie> we could raise funds via a betting pool!
  88 14:54:17 <jjmarin> no 5 without 4 :-)
  89 14:54:35 <joanie> okay.... anything else on this front?
  90 14:55:05 <joanie> assuming not....
  91 14:55:16 <joanie> #topic GNOME 3.4 Planning
  92 14:55:25 <joanie> clown: you have an item added so go for it
  93 14:55:32 <clown> thanks, joanie
  94 14:55:46 <clown> well, I've been on a bit of a roller coaster ride the past few days.
  95 14:56:11 <clown> for the past couple of weeks, Bassi and I have been going back and forth on a patch for Clutter...
  96 14:56:30 <clown> that implements the brighness/contrast effects to be used by gs-mag.
  97 14:56:40 <clown> on Tues he gave me the go ahead to commit the patch.
  98 14:56:46 <clown> I did so yesterday morning.
  99 14:56:48 <joanie> woohoo!
 100 14:56:55 <joanie> info that clown
 101 14:56:59 <joanie> and congrats!!
 102 14:57:03 <clown> 5 minutes later he reverted the repository to take it out.
 103 14:57:07 <joanie> oh hell
 104 14:57:31 <clown> apparently, there are questions about (1) the algorithms used  and (2) the architetture.
 105 14:58:05 <clown> re: the architecture:  they know more about clutter, cogl etc. that I do, and I'm willing to just go along with that.
 106 14:58:27 <clown> re:  the algorithms.  I took the brightness and contrast effects from the old gnome mag.
 107 14:58:49 <clown> I assumed they were correct, since they've been used for years (?)
 108 14:59:12 <clown> but, now I have my doubts. So,  anyone here know about them?  or about where to look for these calculations?
 109 14:59:26 <bnitz> clown:What magnifier capabilities exist in gnome 3.x fallback mode?
 110 14:59:40 * joanie smiles tiredly
 111 14:59:46 <clown> bnitz:  none I assume since...
 112 14:59:54 <clown> gnome-mag was a CORBA service.
 113 15:00:05 <joanie> unless you can get compiz working in fallback mode
 114 15:00:08 <clown> does CORBA/Bonobo run in fallback mode?
 115 15:00:20 <joanie> bonobo is dead
 116 15:00:22 <joanie> gone
 117 15:00:23 <bnitz> clown:No
 118 15:00:39 <clown> that's what I thought.  so, to answer your question, bnitz, compiz.
 119 15:00:40 <bnitz> so in fallback mode, new magnifier doesn't work, gnome-mag doesn't work.
 120 15:00:53 <joanie> bnitz: you catch on quickly ;-)
 121 15:01:03 <clown> new magnifier is built into gnome shell.
 122 15:01:06 <bnitz> sorry if it's a dumb question.
 123 15:01:14 <joanie> bnitz: no. it's not.
 124 15:01:22 <clown> bnitz. not at all.  It's tought to keep track of this flock of birds.
 125 15:01:27 <clown> "tough"
 126 15:01:55 <bnitz> For environments where 3d doesn't work, clutter doesn't work and compiz doesn't work
 127 15:02:02 <bnitz> virtual machines, thin clients...
 128 15:02:11 <clown> eww...
 129 15:02:45 <joanie> so....
 130 15:02:46 * clown thinking what to info here...
 131 15:02:49 <bnitz> No mag.  Let's just hope when it comes to that, companies which have/rely on such desktop technology (smiles at overlord) have some money to put into making this work.
 132 15:02:58 <jjmarin> bnitz: gnome shell works in some virtual machines AFAIK
 133 15:03:19 <bnitz> jjmartin:Yes, if you enable 3d and pray a lot.
 134 15:03:25 <clown> jjmarin:  which ones.  I can't get it to work in virtual box (except reallly slowly).
 135 15:03:41 <bnitz> and have lots of time to wait....
 136 15:03:48 <API_afk> bnitz, btw, gnome 2 has magnification, but was awful, magnification is a costly thing, so IMHO, it is safer to assume that without hw capabilities you will not have a proper magnification solution, more if you take into account our inherent lack of resources
 137 15:03:54 * API_afk going back to bushes
 138 15:04:05 <jjmarin> clown: I have to look up, I only read it about it
 139 15:04:26 <bnitz> API_afk that was my assumption. Thanks.
 140 15:04:30 <joanie> clown: info on your report?
 141 15:04:35 <joanie> please
 142 15:04:43 <API_afk> API_afk, IMHO, current gnome-shell magnification is awesome, and we would focus on it, at least for the moment
 143 15:05:07 <clown> #info re: bug 656156 Adding lightness inversion, brightness, and contrast effects to Clutter
 144 15:05:07 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=656156 enhancement, Normal, ---, clutter-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Add lightness, brightness, and contrast effects
 145 15:05:38 <clown> #info Joseph and his reviewer, E. Bassi, have had a fruitful back and forth on how to structure the patch
 146 15:05:47 <joanie> :-)
 147 15:06:00 <clown> #info there was an initial agreement to push it to Clutter master
 148 15:06:35 <clown> #info but subsequently, there were questions about the equations used for brightness and contrast calculations (note: not inversion).
 149 15:06:56 <clown> #info and about the architecture (issues about effeciency within open gl).
 150 15:07:26 <clown> #info Joseph wrote a reply to these questions — see https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=656156#c15
 151 15:07:26 <tota11y> 04Bug 656156: enhancement, Normal, ---, clutter-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Add lightness, brightness, and contrast effects
 152 15:07:52 <clown> #info  Joseph seeks advice on what, if anything, if wrong with brightness and contrast equations he used.
 153 15:07:56 <clown> done.
 154 15:08:22 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks Joseph deserves a medal for all of his work and looks forward to having these features in place.
 155 15:08:39 * clown thanks joanie.
 156 15:08:47 * clown notes that hot fudge sundae would help.
 157 15:09:02 <joanie> I can arrange that
 158 15:09:07 <joanie> okay.... So a couple of other modules I'm looking at.
 159 15:09:27 <joanie> #info Joanie is interested in seeing if we can get DOTS to be an official app.
 160 15:09:42 <joanie> #info The present problem seems to be the need to port to introspection.
 161 15:09:49 <joanie> #info Joanie is willing to do this port.
 162 15:10:18 <joanie> Any thoughts on DOTS (sorry to rhyme)
 163 15:11:01 <mgorse> ,i l brl
 164 15:11:09 <clown> :-)
 165 15:11:11 <joanie> heh
 166 15:11:36 <joanie> mgorse: in related news I have to learn spanish braille now.
 167 15:11:44 <joanie> I'm going to be a n00b
 168 15:12:11 <mgorse> Is there contracted Braille in Spanish? Other tha nthat I didn't think it was that different, except for having symbols for nye and accents
 169 15:12:44 <joanie> also different symbols for punctuation and capitalization
 170 15:12:44 * jjmarin wants to know about DOTS. where is the DOTS site ?
 171 15:13:04 <joanie> jjmarin: http://live.gnome.org/Dots
 172 15:13:16 <jjmarin> joanie: thanks !
 173 15:13:24 <joanie> it's a gnome app, but not an official/blessed module
 174 15:13:33 <joanie> and Fer was working on it, but isn't
 175 15:13:47 <jjmarin> I think fherrera was involved on this...
 176 15:14:03 <jjmarin> ok
 177 15:14:26 <joanie> and I think between me and mgorse (who was a Duxbury developer), I think we could do awesome stuff with it.
 178 15:14:51 <joanie> #action Joanie will add the DOTS introspection porting to her to-do list.
 179 15:14:55 <joanie> should be easy
 180 15:15:02 <jjmarin> yay !
 181 15:15:12 <joanie> #action Joanie will try to find Fer and see if he wants a co-maintainer or two
 182 15:15:21 <joanie> new item
 183 15:15:54 <joanie> #info Joanie started looking at Dasher, which used to be an official GNOME AT/module/app to see what would be required to get it re-blessed.
 184 15:16:05 <joanie> #info Joanie discovered that the docs are uber out-of-date.
 185 15:16:19 * mgorse wonders if Patrick ever ported it to somehow use AT-SPI2
 186 15:16:41 <Pendulum> mgorse: not as far as I know, but I believe it will still work without at-spi2 (there was a discussion about this a few months ago)
 187 15:16:44 <joanie> #info Joanie learned from Pendulum in #a11y that using it for direct input into another app requires launching from the command line.
 188 15:17:30 <joanie> mgorse: the "accessibility" mode seems to still require cspi
 189 15:17:36 <joanie> but that's no longer the default
 190 15:17:51 <joanie> and I don't know how necessary it is for what Dasher is meant to do
 191 15:18:07 <joanie> #info Joanie will keep investigating the present state of Dasher and follow up with Patrick.
 192 15:18:18 <joanie> I guess that was an action item, but oh well. :-)
 193 15:18:28 <joanie> I do the minutes. I'll fix it.
 194 15:18:42 <joanie> other things on the GNOME 3.4 front?
 195 15:19:35 <joanie> Well, we're just all kinds of efficient today. :-)
 196 15:19:43 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
 197 15:19:51 <joanie> floor is open
 198 15:20:09 <mgorse> Porting from cspi -> libatspi should be fairly straight-forward, if we need to do that
 199 15:20:40 <joanie> mgorse: good to know
 200 15:20:58 <joanie> I'm honestly somewhat surprised Patrick hasn't done that as part of all the other work he's been doing
 201 15:21:14 <joanie> but maybe it's not all that necessary.
 202 15:21:56 <joanie> I suppose the question is what exactly did Dasher used to do via AT-SPI that it no longer does
 203 15:23:14 <joanie> and given that we have plenty of meeting time and I'm in charge, I wouldn't mind a quick action item review if no one has miscellaneous other stuff to bring up
 204 15:23:28 <joanie> like jjmarin wxwidgets progress?
 205 15:23:57 <jjmarin> I was able to get compiled in opensuse
 206 15:24:13 <jjmarin> also in fedora, but it crashes in fedora
 207 15:24:29 <joanie> and testing with accerciser?
 208 15:25:34 <jjmarin> #Info Juanjo has managed to get wxWidgets compiled in opensuse and fedora
 209 15:26:07 <aleiva> umhh about cspi to libaspi
 210 15:26:11 <jjmarin> #Info and now I want to test the demos with accersiser
 211 15:26:39 <joanie> jjmarin: thanks! :-)
 212 15:26:39 <aleiva> make sense to implement a c plus plus binding using mm gnome framework
 213 15:26:44 <aleiva> i did some tests
 214 15:27:26 <API_afk> aleiva, a c++ binding for what?
 215 15:27:28 <aleiva> of libatspi of course
 216 15:27:40 <API_afk> why?
 217 15:28:03 <aleiva> i personally needed for the compiz accessibikity plugin
 218 15:28:05 <API_afk> I don't know any developer complaining because being "just C"
 219 15:28:16 <API_afk> but you still can use a C library on C++
 220 15:28:52 <API_afk> unity is c++ and the ATK support that I implemented was using atk, not atkmm
 221 15:29:00 <aleiva> yes but if you can use some high structures of c pp you finally reimplement it
 222 15:29:14 <API_afk> Im not totally against it, just saying that I'm not sure if it is worth the effort
 223 15:29:26 <aleiva> now compiz a11 is using c library
 224 15:29:33 <mgorse> I wonder if that's straight-forward, or would require changes to the source library possibly. I've never looked at the mm framework before
 225 15:29:39 <aleiva> but i want to expose some classes for clients
 226 15:29:58 <API_afk> mgorse, for what I now, it has part of automatic binding, but part is also manual
 227 15:30:03 <aleiva> and i scaffold the library into cpp classes
 228 15:30:06 <API_afk> murray cumming is the guy to ask
 229 15:30:18 <aleiva> api im around 80 percent
 230 15:30:20 <aleiva> yes
 231 15:30:22 <API_afk> aleiva, ok, I see the point
 232 15:30:27 <API_afk> but again
 233 15:30:29 <API_afk> Im not totally against it, just saying that I'm not sure if it is worth the effort
 234 15:30:43 <aleiva> for me i can assure that yes
 235 15:30:49 <API_afk> so, we could just tentative ask murray cumming
 236 15:30:54 <API_afk> or other mm developer
 237 15:30:56 <aleiva> ill ask
 238 15:31:02 <API_afk> and check how complex that will
 239 15:31:05 <aleiva> after commit my progress
 240 15:31:14 <aleiva> it is not complex
 241 15:31:25 * API_afk wonder if right now mm bindings uses introspection or not
 242 15:31:30 <aleiva> i did it in one day
 243 15:31:31 <aleiva> no
 244 15:31:39 <aleiva> no in cpp sadly
 245 15:31:54 <aleiva> i dont know the technical issue now, but not
 246 15:32:11 <API_afk> well, probably gobject introspection are just for runtime bindings
 247 15:32:14 <API_afk> I don't know either
 248 15:32:21 * API_afk going back to bushes
 249 15:32:32 * joanie closing the meeting
 250 15:32:35 <joanie> parting shots?
 251 15:33:16 <joanie> #endmeeting