1 14:35:28 <API> #startmeeting
   2 14:35:28 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Sep  8 14:35:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 14:35:28 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 14:35:45 <jjmarin> #help
   5 14:35:47 <API> #topic The Summit formerly known as "Boston"
   6 14:36:07 <API> #info This year Boston summit will be organized in Montreal
   7 14:36:25 <API> #info a lot of people, including a11y people, were there because they lived near Boston
   8 14:36:29 <API> so first question
   9 14:36:35 <API> which people are affected by this move?
  10 14:37:01 * joanie raises her hand and pulls up heidi's
  11 14:37:35 <joanie> Yeah, Montreal. It's the "other Boston."
  12 14:37:39 <mgorse> It means that, if I go, I'll need to pay for lodging, or have it paid for me
  13 14:37:51 <joanie> mgorse: you're lodging was budgeted
  14 14:37:57 <mgorse> yeah, I know that
  15 14:38:01 <joanie> your even
  16 14:38:14 <alibezz> these are great news. going to canada is much easier than going to the us
  17 14:38:16 <alibezz> =D
  18 14:38:28 <joanie> heidi: So let's talk later about alternatives
  19 14:38:46 <joanie> I'd love to drive out and do some work/guest lecture to your class about GNOME and a11y
  20 14:38:49 <API> alibezz, well, it is good to know that at least this is good news to someone
  21 14:38:55 <API> in my case is mostly indifferent
  22 14:39:04 <joanie> API, I'll drive up.
  23 14:39:08 <API> but I fear that if a lot of peopple don¡t go
  24 14:39:15 <API> it isn't worth to go there
  25 14:39:19 * joanie nods
  26 14:39:24 * alibezz nods
  27 14:39:27 <API> as this is next question
  28 14:39:54 <joanie> If the Board goes and makes decisions (and for that matter, what about the Release Team) that impact GNOME
  29 14:39:54 <API> do you think that worths to go there taking into account that country change+short notice will mean that a lot of people will not be there?
  30 14:40:07 <joanie> then I think that it's worth it for us to be present
  31 14:40:44 <alibezz> making such a big move is only worth it if a reasonable bunch of people can really go. I dunno if there are many people from other countries that do intend to go....
  32 14:40:53 <joanie> if the Board themselves and the Release Team (and for that matter the Marketing Team, given our would-be FoG) say "to heck with non-Boston"
  33 14:41:02 <joanie> then I would say, "no, ain't worth it."
  34 14:41:06 <mgorse> That's kinda what I'm struggling with, hense the "if" in my last comment. I'll go if I have a reason to go but wan tto try to have some goals if I'm going, rather than just some vague "it might be nice for me to be there" if I'm going to ask the travel committee for funding, particularly if we're likely also going to be having some hackfest in Europe some time soon
  35 14:41:40 * joanie nods at mgorse
  36 14:41:42 * alibezz nods
  37 14:42:20 <API> mgorse, exactly, thats also part of my "it is worth" question
  38 14:42:23 <joanie> API do you have a feel for whether or not the Release Team is planning on (largely) being in attendence and making decisions at a Summit meeting
  39 14:42:57 <joanie> as for who else is coming, jrb told me last night he anticipates there being a redhat group driving up
  40 14:43:01 <API> joanie, no don't know, at this moment they are really worried
  41 14:43:04 <API> compiling stuff,
  42 14:43:11 <API> as seems that some packages are not compiling
  43 14:43:12 * joanie nods
  44 14:43:21 * clown resonates
  45 14:43:31 <API> so I guess that next step is check how this change affects other teams, right?
  46 14:43:38 <joanie> jjmarin: do you know if the marketing team is planning to be there?
  47 14:43:44 <joanie> API I believe so, yes
  48 14:43:50 <joanie> I expect the Board to be present
  49 14:43:53 <joanie> and the ED
  50 14:43:55 <jjmarin> I don't know this
  51 14:44:00 <joanie> and therefore I will be present ;-)
  52 14:44:17 <jjmarin> but it there are a lot of chances
  53 14:44:17 <joanie> because one of us (API or me) should for meeting with the Board and ED
  54 14:46:03 <joanie> so conclusions?
  55 14:46:08 <API> ok, well, lets try to summarize this for mnutes sake
  56 14:46:27 <API> #info Heidi, WNEC student, mgorse, and joanie are affected by this change
  57 14:46:36 <API> #info we are not sure if other teams are also affected
  58 14:47:07 <API> #info the big question here if it is worth to go there, unless something real would be organized there
  59 14:47:33 <API> #action check how this change affects other teams: marketing, gtk, ED, red hat folks, and so on
  60 14:47:38 <API> anything else?
  61 14:47:48 <joanie> not from me
  62 14:47:50 <joanie> thanks!
  63 14:48:40 <API> so, thats mean move to next item?
  64 14:48:41 <aleiva> I think that another interesting action if peope go is to have an a11y meeting tghere or hackfest
  65 14:48:59 <joanie> aleiva: We talked about a hackfest yesterday
  66 14:49:00 <joanie> in #a11y
  67 14:49:08 <joanie> and the conclusion is that we'd have it in Europe
  68 14:49:13 <API> aleiva, but that would depend on the people that could go there or not
  69 14:49:13 <aleiva> ok
  70 14:49:19 <API> chicken-egg issue
  71 14:49:21 <aleiva> api: yes
  72 14:49:29 <aleiva> if people go
  73 14:50:19 <aleiva> like an conditional action :)
  74 14:50:31 <joanie> 14:49:08 < joanie> and the conclusion is that we'd have it in Europe
  75 14:50:32 <joanie> :-)
  76 14:50:39 <aleiva> make sense a big hackfest at europe
  77 14:50:41 <aleiva> yes
  78 14:50:51 <clown> joanie, any conclusion as to when?
  79 14:50:52 <mgorse> company keeps talking about wanting to completely rewrite the a11y interface for gtk, or something like that, but he won't be at the GNOME summit
  80 14:50:56 <joanie> clown: not yet
  81 14:51:01 <aleiva> but if people go to montreal i think make sense to have two days hackfest there
  82 14:51:02 <clown> ok
  83 14:51:13 <joanie> mgorse: exactly
  84 14:51:28 <joanie> ditto for fregl
  85 14:51:59 <joanie> and I'd like bedahr present to talk about Simon, etc.
  86 14:52:37 <joanie> anyhoo, moving on?
  87 14:53:23 <aleiva> good for me
  88 14:53:25 <API> joanie, ok
  89 14:53:39 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
  90 14:53:48 <API> jjmarin, ?
  91 14:54:25 <jjmarin> ok
  92 14:54:43 <jjmarin> I'm going to inform you about the status FoG campaign and Release notesI'm going to inform you about the status FoG campaign and Release notes
  93 14:54:55 <jjmarin> #Info In the a11y FoG Campaign front we have tree goals at different stages
  94 14:55:05 <jjmarin> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
  95 14:55:13 <jjmarin> #Info 1) Peformance Improvements
  96 14:55:27 <jjmarin> It is the most complete goal. We even have included and estimated cost
  97 14:55:41 <jjmarin> #Info 2) GNOME Shell Magnifier track focus and caret
  98 14:55:53 <jjmarin> It almost complete but we need to add a little bit of details
  99 14:56:04 <jjmarin> an estimation of the cost
 100 14:56:20 <jjmarin> maybe clown can do something here ;-)
 101 14:56:33 <jjmarin> I can help you setting a upper limit of 1000000 $ :-D
 102 14:56:46 <clown> jjmarin, I put up a draft of the details just before the meeting...
 103 14:56:58 <jjmarin> great !
 104 14:56:59 <clown> they could probably be firmed up a bit...
 105 14:57:15 <jjmarin> #Info 3) ATK/AT-SPI Scripting and automation tool
 106 14:57:28 <clown> as for cost, that depends on our financial people here, so I'll lean on them.
 107 14:57:46 <jjmarin> it's up to you
 108 14:57:49 <clown> (or just take the upper limit as the default :-))
 109 14:58:02 <jjmarin> I think you're the more capable for this
 110 14:58:04 <jjmarin> :)
 111 14:58:24 <jjmarin> The ATK/AT-SPI Scripting and automation tool
 112 14:58:36 <jjmarin> sounds a very promising feature for the a11y but
 113 14:58:54 <jjmarin> we even define it, we only have ideas
 114 14:59:06 <jjmarin> Let see if Company can help to fill this
 115 14:59:12 <jjmarin> And bedahr seems interested too
 116 14:59:46 <jjmarin> I my opinion these there goals is good set for setting a FoG campaign.
 117 14:59:56 <jjmarin> What the a11y team think about it?
 118 15:00:10 <API> jjmarin, those make sense as a starting point
 119 15:00:33 <aleiva> jjmarin: impressive work
 120 15:00:42 <jjmarin> So we are wating for more goals ?
 121 15:01:01 <jjmarin> It seems this team have a lot of ideas ;-)
 122 15:01:32 <API> jjmarin, https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Roadmap
 123 15:01:38 <API> yes there are a lot of ideas ;)
 124 15:01:52 <API> but as you said, we can't ask for 1.000.000 dollars
 125 15:02:08 <API> ok people, more questions, comments, doubts?
 126 15:02:37 <jjmarin> I want to comment as well the release notes
 127 15:02:49 <joanie> argggh release notes
 128 15:02:52 <jjmarin> People haven't filled anything, so no-idea-me has put
 129 15:02:53 <jjmarin> some lines :-)
 130 15:02:58 <joanie> When are they due?
 131 15:03:03 <jjmarin> Please drop some lines
 132 15:03:10 <jjmarin> it's free (as a beer) :-)
 133 15:03:32 <jjmarin> They don't give me a specific date
 134 15:03:40 <joanie> could you get one?
 135 15:03:43 <joanie> please?
 136 15:03:44 <jjmarin> but I think we have a week or so
 137 15:04:18 <API> #action People should *really* write on the release note, pretty please
 138 15:04:19 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will ask for the final date for the release notes
 139 15:04:30 <jjmarin> Anyway, so far I'm under the impression that the a11y story
 140 15:04:38 <jjmarin> for the release notes 3.2 is pretty weak
 141 15:04:47 <joanie> that's my take as well jjmarin
 142 15:04:58 <joanie> I'd like to therefore, see about getting some performance numbers
 143 15:05:06 <joanie> because that is what users have complained about
 144 15:05:15 <joanie> and for that matter, some developers
 145 15:05:16 <jjmarin> High Contrast Icons: Meg Ford has designed a fantastic set of Symbolic and High Contrast icons
 146 15:05:29 <jjmarin> sorry, go on joanie
 147 15:05:37 <joanie> jjmarin: no I'm good
 148 15:05:39 <joanie> you go on
 149 15:05:54 <API> well, our igalian internship is getting some output checking the after/before that mgorse change
 150 15:06:07 <API> I will ask him to pretty print them, and send a mail
 151 15:06:22 <API> probably thats is something "visible" about a11y and performance to talk about
 152 15:06:28 * joanie nods
 153 15:06:49 <joanie> what tool is he using btw?
 154 15:06:53 <jjmarin> I was hoping to have visual improvent in a11y for the release notes
 155 15:07:03 <jjmarin> Meg Ford has designed a fantastic set of Symbolic and High Contrast icons
 156 15:07:04 <aleiva> I can provide some data and scripts to check perforrmance
 157 15:07:17 <joanie> aleiva: using Orca from master
 158 15:07:23 <API> <joanie> what tool is he using btw?
 159 15:07:26 <API> is this a question for me?
 160 15:07:30 <joanie> because I really think the introspection work is making the difference
 161 15:07:32 <joanie> API yes
 162 15:07:50 <API> joanie, he just tested apps consuming a lot
 163 15:07:58 <API> like on those famous bugs
 164 15:08:08 <API> like nautilus and rhythmbox using
 165 15:08:11 <API> gtktreeviews
 166 15:08:21 <API> he did't went to introspection work
 167 15:08:28 <API> but about how he measured that
 168 15:08:36 <API> he mostly used sysproof for performance
 169 15:08:43 <API> and valgrind for memory consumption
 170 15:08:48 * joanie jots it down
 171 15:09:20 <API> #action API wil ask Alejo, Igalia intern, to pretty print their current results
 172 15:09:27 <API> as he is working on other tests
 173 15:09:35 <API> ok, anythin else in thios point?
 174 15:10:14 <jjmarin> This will be a performance release notes :-)
 175 15:10:47 <joanie> jjmarin: that's something "visible"
 176 15:10:58 <API> well, yes, although at this point, focused on what happens when no one is using an AT
 177 15:11:05 <API> and for a11y sake, what it is important
 178 15:11:14 <API> is what happen when AT is running
 179 15:11:24 <API> anyway, lets move
 180 15:11:29 <joanie> Well, like I said, Orca with introspection is way snappier
 181 15:11:34 <API> #topic GNOME 3.2 progress
 182 15:11:44 <API> well, you can now mention that, on the proper topic
 183 15:12:03 <jjmarin> The only hope for a more visual addition was Meg Ford icons, but although the icons are finished, I don't know if there is someone working on a theme engine for this
 184 15:12:17 * joanie thought it was proper on the release notes
 185 15:13:44 <mgorse> #info org.a11y.Bus.IsEnabled is now a readwrite property, not just readonly
 186 15:14:35 <API> mgorse, awesome
 187 15:14:50 <mgorse> although it only actually sets anything permanently if the GSettings desktop-interface schema is installed. if, ie, xfce wanted to listen to it, then it would need to watch for a PropertiesChanged signal on it and somehow handle it
 188 15:14:51 <API> and afaik, release-team approved that change, right?
 189 15:15:51 <mgorse> API: Well, fredp emailed me and said to commit it, that he didn't feel that it was under the scope of the feature freeze
 190 15:16:03 <mgorse> and I didn't get any other emails, so I committed
 191 15:16:05 <API> mgorse, yes, this is the mail I read
 192 15:16:26 <mgorse> and I'm never quite clear exactly what a feature freeze covers
 193 15:16:54 <API> mgorse, well, I guess that it is a general rule of "not adding new features at this point"
 194 15:17:07 <API> as by general they require testing
 195 15:17:14 <API> but in this specific case, that seemed safer
 196 15:17:39 <API> ok, anything else about progress towards 3.2?
 197 15:17:43 <API> joanie, clown ?
 198 15:17:56 <clown> API, nothing has changed since last week.
 199 15:18:06 <API> clown, k
 200 15:18:08 <joanie> yeah, we're going into code freeze
 201 15:18:14 <joanie> so just wrapping up
 202 15:20:13 <API> ok, I think that this affects all people
 203 15:20:22 <API> so lets go to our favourite topic
 204 15:20:39 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
 205 15:20:51 <API> someone what to add here something not included on the agenda?
 206 15:22:49 <jjmarin> we have two days to fill the release notes
 207 15:23:22 <clown> meaning, due by tomorrow?  or Monday?
 208 15:23:24 <joanie> two days
 209 15:23:33 * joanie headdesks
 210 15:23:48 <jjmarin> 2 weeks before release: Draft finished.
 211 15:24:06 <jjmarin> https://live.gnome.org/ReleaseNotes
 212 15:25:06 <jjmarin> I can add performace improvents in the release notes, and complete when people add more info
 213 15:26:08 <joanie> jjmarin: thanks
 214 15:26:22 <joanie> I'll try to get something in the next couple of days
 215 15:26:35 * joanie headdesks again
 216 15:28:45 <joanie> quiet meetings are quiet
 217 15:29:21 <clown> brown cows are brown
 218 15:29:36 <joanie> how now brown cow
 219 15:29:53 <joanie> API end the meeting
 220 15:29:55 <joanie> please
 221 15:30:05 <clown> yeah, joanie has *work* to do.
 222 15:30:15 <alibezz> =D
 223 15:30:17 <joanie> lol
 224 15:30:31 <jjmarin> :O
 225 15:30:32 <joanie> yeah, my not-quite-over day job :-/
 226 15:30:42 <joanie> and a bunch of coordination stuff about life
 227 15:30:50 <API> ok, folks, thanks to be there
 228 15:30:52 <API> see you
 229 15:30:56 <API> @endmeeting
 230 15:30:56 <API> ups
 231 15:30:59 <API> #endmeeting