14:35:28 <API> #startmeeting
14:35:28 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Sep  8 14:35:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:35:28 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:35:45 <jjmarin> #help
14:35:47 <API> #topic The Summit formerly known as "Boston"
14:36:07 <API> #info This year Boston summit will be organized in Montreal
14:36:25 <API> #info a lot of people, including a11y people, were there because they lived near Boston
14:36:29 <API> so first question
14:36:35 <API> which people are affected by this move?
14:37:01 * joanie raises her hand and pulls up heidi's
14:37:35 <joanie> Yeah, Montreal. It's the "other Boston."
14:37:39 <mgorse> It means that, if I go, I'll need to pay for lodging, or have it paid for me
14:37:51 <joanie> mgorse: you're lodging was budgeted
14:37:57 <mgorse> yeah, I know that
14:38:01 <joanie> your even
14:38:14 <alibezz> these are great news. going to canada is much easier than going to the us
14:38:16 <alibezz> =D
14:38:28 <joanie> heidi: So let's talk later about alternatives
14:38:46 <joanie> I'd love to drive out and do some work/guest lecture to your class about GNOME and a11y
14:38:49 <API> alibezz, well, it is good to know that at least this is good news to someone
14:38:55 <API> in my case is mostly indifferent
14:39:04 <joanie> API, I'll drive up.
14:39:08 <API> but I fear that if a lot of peopple don¡t go
14:39:15 <API> it isn't worth to go there
14:39:19 * joanie nods
14:39:24 * alibezz nods
14:39:27 <API> as this is next question
14:39:54 <joanie> If the Board goes and makes decisions (and for that matter, what about the Release Team) that impact GNOME
14:39:54 <API> do you think that worths to go there taking into account that country change+short notice will mean that a lot of people will not be there?
14:40:07 <joanie> then I think that it's worth it for us to be present
14:40:44 <alibezz> making such a big move is only worth it if a reasonable bunch of people can really go. I dunno if there are many people from other countries that do intend to go....
14:40:53 <joanie> if the Board themselves and the Release Team (and for that matter the Marketing Team, given our would-be FoG) say "to heck with non-Boston"
14:41:02 <joanie> then I would say, "no, ain't worth it."
14:41:06 <mgorse> That's kinda what I'm struggling with, hense the "if" in my last comment. I'll go if I have a reason to go but wan tto try to have some goals if I'm going, rather than just some vague "it might be nice for me to be there" if I'm going to ask the travel committee for funding, particularly if we're likely also going to be having some hackfest in Europe some time soon
14:41:40 * joanie nods at mgorse
14:41:42 * alibezz nods
14:42:20 <API> mgorse, exactly, thats also part of my "it is worth" question
14:42:23 <joanie> API do you have a feel for whether or not the Release Team is planning on (largely) being in attendence and making decisions at a Summit meeting
14:42:57 <joanie> as for who else is coming, jrb told me last night he anticipates there being a redhat group driving up
14:43:01 <API> joanie, no don't know, at this moment they are really worried
14:43:04 <API> compiling stuff,
14:43:11 <API> as seems that some packages are not compiling
14:43:12 * joanie nods
14:43:21 * clown resonates
14:43:31 <API> so I guess that next step is check how this change affects other teams, right?
14:43:38 <joanie> jjmarin: do you know if the marketing team is planning to be there?
14:43:44 <joanie> API I believe so, yes
14:43:50 <joanie> I expect the Board to be present
14:43:53 <joanie> and the ED
14:43:55 <jjmarin> I don't know this
14:44:00 <joanie> and therefore I will be present ;-)
14:44:17 <jjmarin> but it there are a lot of chances
14:44:17 <joanie> because one of us (API or me) should for meeting with the Board and ED
14:46:03 <joanie> so conclusions?
14:46:08 <API> ok, well, lets try to summarize this for mnutes sake
14:46:27 <API> #info Heidi, WNEC student, mgorse, and joanie are affected by this change
14:46:36 <API> #info we are not sure if other teams are also affected
14:47:07 <API> #info the big question here if it is worth to go there, unless something real would be organized there
14:47:33 <API> #action check how this change affects other teams: marketing, gtk, ED, red hat folks, and so on
14:47:38 <API> anything else?
14:47:48 <joanie> not from me
14:47:50 <joanie> thanks!
14:48:40 <API> so, thats mean move to next item?
14:48:41 <aleiva> I think that another interesting action if peope go is to have an a11y meeting tghere or hackfest
14:48:59 <joanie> aleiva: We talked about a hackfest yesterday
14:49:00 <joanie> in #a11y
14:49:08 <joanie> and the conclusion is that we'd have it in Europe
14:49:13 <API> aleiva, but that would depend on the people that could go there or not
14:49:13 <aleiva> ok
14:49:19 <API> chicken-egg issue
14:49:21 <aleiva> api: yes
14:49:29 <aleiva> if people go
14:50:19 <aleiva> like an conditional action :)
14:50:31 <joanie> 14:49:08 < joanie> and the conclusion is that we'd have it in Europe
14:50:32 <joanie> :-)
14:50:39 <aleiva> make sense a big hackfest at europe
14:50:41 <aleiva> yes
14:50:51 <clown> joanie, any conclusion as to when?
14:50:52 <mgorse> company keeps talking about wanting to completely rewrite the a11y interface for gtk, or something like that, but he won't be at the GNOME summit
14:50:56 <joanie> clown: not yet
14:51:01 <aleiva> but if people go to montreal i think make sense to have two days hackfest there
14:51:02 <clown> ok
14:51:13 <joanie> mgorse: exactly
14:51:28 <joanie> ditto for fregl
14:51:59 <joanie> and I'd like bedahr present to talk about Simon, etc.
14:52:37 <joanie> anyhoo, moving on?
14:53:23 <aleiva> good for me
14:53:25 <API> joanie, ok
14:53:39 <API> #topic Marketing and Fundraising
14:53:48 <API> jjmarin, ?
14:54:25 <jjmarin> ok
14:54:43 <jjmarin> I'm going to inform you about the status FoG campaign and Release notesI'm going to inform you about the status FoG campaign and Release notes
14:54:55 <jjmarin> #Info In the a11y FoG Campaign front we have tree goals at different stages
14:55:05 <jjmarin> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Marketing/FoG
14:55:13 <jjmarin> #Info 1) Peformance Improvements
14:55:27 <jjmarin> It is the most complete goal. We even have included and estimated cost
14:55:41 <jjmarin> #Info 2) GNOME Shell Magnifier track focus and caret
14:55:53 <jjmarin> It almost complete but we need to add a little bit of details
14:56:04 <jjmarin> an estimation of the cost
14:56:20 <jjmarin> maybe clown can do something here ;-)
14:56:33 <jjmarin> I can help you setting a upper limit of 1000000 $ :-D
14:56:46 <clown> jjmarin, I put up a draft of the details just before the meeting...
14:56:58 <jjmarin> great !
14:56:59 <clown> they could probably be firmed up a bit...
14:57:15 <jjmarin> #Info 3) ATK/AT-SPI Scripting and automation tool
14:57:28 <clown> as for cost, that depends on our financial people here, so I'll lean on them.
14:57:46 <jjmarin> it's up to you
14:57:49 <clown> (or just take the upper limit as the default :-))
14:58:02 <jjmarin> I think you're the more capable for this
14:58:04 <jjmarin> :)
14:58:24 <jjmarin> The ATK/AT-SPI Scripting and automation tool
14:58:36 <jjmarin> sounds a very promising feature for the a11y but
14:58:54 <jjmarin> we even define it, we only have ideas
14:59:06 <jjmarin> Let see if Company can help to fill this
14:59:12 <jjmarin> And bedahr seems interested too
14:59:46 <jjmarin> I my opinion these there goals is good set for setting a FoG campaign.
14:59:56 <jjmarin> What the a11y team think about it?
15:00:10 <API> jjmarin, those make sense as a starting point
15:00:33 <aleiva> jjmarin: impressive work
15:00:42 <jjmarin> So we are wating for more goals ?
15:01:01 <jjmarin> It seems this team have a lot of ideas ;-)
15:01:32 <API> jjmarin, https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Roadmap
15:01:38 <API> yes there are a lot of ideas ;)
15:01:52 <API> but as you said, we can't ask for 1.000.000 dollars
15:02:08 <API> ok people, more questions, comments, doubts?
15:02:37 <jjmarin> I want to comment as well the release notes
15:02:49 <joanie> argggh release notes
15:02:52 <jjmarin> People haven't filled anything, so no-idea-me has put
15:02:53 <jjmarin> some lines :-)
15:02:58 <joanie> When are they due?
15:03:03 <jjmarin> Please drop some lines
15:03:10 <jjmarin> it's free (as a beer) :-)
15:03:32 <jjmarin> They don't give me a specific date
15:03:40 <joanie> could you get one?
15:03:43 <joanie> please?
15:03:44 <jjmarin> but I think we have a week or so
15:04:18 <API> #action People should *really* write on the release note, pretty please
15:04:19 <jjmarin> #action Juanjo will ask for the final date for the release notes
15:04:30 <jjmarin> Anyway, so far I'm under the impression that the a11y story
15:04:38 <jjmarin> for the release notes 3.2 is pretty weak
15:04:47 <joanie> that's my take as well jjmarin
15:04:58 <joanie> I'd like to therefore, see about getting some performance numbers
15:05:06 <joanie> because that is what users have complained about
15:05:15 <joanie> and for that matter, some developers
15:05:16 <jjmarin> High Contrast Icons: Meg Ford has designed a fantastic set of Symbolic and High Contrast icons
15:05:29 <jjmarin> sorry, go on joanie
15:05:37 <joanie> jjmarin: no I'm good
15:05:39 <joanie> you go on
15:05:54 <API> well, our igalian internship is getting some output checking the after/before that mgorse change
15:06:07 <API> I will ask him to pretty print them, and send a mail
15:06:22 <API> probably thats is something "visible" about a11y and performance to talk about
15:06:28 * joanie nods
15:06:49 <joanie> what tool is he using btw?
15:06:53 <jjmarin> I was hoping to have visual improvent in a11y for the release notes
15:07:03 <jjmarin> Meg Ford has designed a fantastic set of Symbolic and High Contrast icons
15:07:04 <aleiva> I can provide some data and scripts to check perforrmance
15:07:17 <joanie> aleiva: using Orca from master
15:07:23 <API> <joanie> what tool is he using btw?
15:07:26 <API> is this a question for me?
15:07:30 <joanie> because I really think the introspection work is making the difference
15:07:32 <joanie> API yes
15:07:50 <API> joanie, he just tested apps consuming a lot
15:07:58 <API> like on those famous bugs
15:08:08 <API> like nautilus and rhythmbox using
15:08:11 <API> gtktreeviews
15:08:21 <API> he did't went to introspection work
15:08:28 <API> but about how he measured that
15:08:36 <API> he mostly used sysproof for performance
15:08:43 <API> and valgrind for memory consumption
15:08:48 * joanie jots it down
15:09:20 <API> #action API wil ask Alejo, Igalia intern, to pretty print their current results
15:09:27 <API> as he is working on other tests
15:09:35 <API> ok, anythin else in thios point?
15:10:14 <jjmarin> This will be a performance release notes :-)
15:10:47 <joanie> jjmarin: that's something "visible"
15:10:58 <API> well, yes, although at this point, focused on what happens when no one is using an AT
15:11:05 <API> and for a11y sake, what it is important
15:11:14 <API> is what happen when AT is running
15:11:24 <API> anyway, lets move
15:11:29 <joanie> Well, like I said, Orca with introspection is way snappier
15:11:34 <API> #topic GNOME 3.2 progress
15:11:44 <API> well, you can now mention that, on the proper topic
15:12:03 <jjmarin> The only hope for a more visual addition was Meg Ford icons, but although the icons are finished, I don't know if there is someone working on a theme engine for this
15:12:17 * joanie thought it was proper on the release notes
15:13:44 <mgorse> #info org.a11y.Bus.IsEnabled is now a readwrite property, not just readonly
15:14:35 <API> mgorse, awesome
15:14:50 <mgorse> although it only actually sets anything permanently if the GSettings desktop-interface schema is installed. if, ie, xfce wanted to listen to it, then it would need to watch for a PropertiesChanged signal on it and somehow handle it
15:14:51 <API> and afaik, release-team approved that change, right?
15:15:51 <mgorse> API: Well, fredp emailed me and said to commit it, that he didn't feel that it was under the scope of the feature freeze
15:16:03 <mgorse> and I didn't get any other emails, so I committed
15:16:05 <API> mgorse, yes, this is the mail I read
15:16:26 <mgorse> and I'm never quite clear exactly what a feature freeze covers
15:16:54 <API> mgorse, well, I guess that it is a general rule of "not adding new features at this point"
15:17:07 <API> as by general they require testing
15:17:14 <API> but in this specific case, that seemed safer
15:17:39 <API> ok, anything else about progress towards 3.2?
15:17:43 <API> joanie, clown ?
15:17:56 <clown> API, nothing has changed since last week.
15:18:06 <API> clown, k
15:18:08 <joanie> yeah, we're going into code freeze
15:18:14 <joanie> so just wrapping up
15:20:13 <API> ok, I think that this affects all people
15:20:22 <API> so lets go to our favourite topic
15:20:39 <API> #topic Miscellaneous time
15:20:51 <API> someone what to add here something not included on the agenda?
15:22:49 <jjmarin> we have two days to fill the release notes
15:23:22 <clown> meaning, due by tomorrow?  or Monday?
15:23:24 <joanie> two days
15:23:33 * joanie headdesks
15:23:48 <jjmarin> 2 weeks before release: Draft finished.
15:24:06 <jjmarin> https://live.gnome.org/ReleaseNotes
15:25:06 <jjmarin> I can add performace improvents in the release notes, and complete when people add more info
15:26:08 <joanie> jjmarin: thanks
15:26:22 <joanie> I'll try to get something in the next couple of days
15:26:35 * joanie headdesks again
15:28:45 <joanie> quiet meetings are quiet
15:29:21 <clown> brown cows are brown
15:29:36 <joanie> how now brown cow
15:29:53 <joanie> API end the meeting
15:29:55 <joanie> please
15:30:05 <clown> yeah, joanie has *work* to do.
15:30:15 <alibezz> =D
15:30:17 <joanie> lol
15:30:31 <jjmarin> :O
15:30:32 <joanie> yeah, my not-quite-over day job :-/
15:30:42 <joanie> and a bunch of coordination stuff about life
15:30:50 <API> ok, folks, thanks to be there
15:30:52 <API> see you
15:30:56 <API> @endmeeting
15:30:56 <API> ups
15:30:59 <API> #endmeeting