14:36:07 <API> #startmeeting
14:36:07 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Aug  4 14:36:07 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:36:07 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:36:30 <API> #topic  possibly add a children-invalidated even
14:36:39 <API> well, this is somewhat a technical topic
14:36:54 <API> mgorse, ?
14:36:58 <API> you added that point
14:37:11 <mgorse> yeah, I added it in response to an email that fregl sent out
14:37:23 <mgorse> since, for kde, when removing a child, it no longer has access to the child's index
14:37:46 <mgorse> so he suggested having an event that would just say that children are invalidated
14:37:53 <fregl> hi, great
14:37:57 <API> insted of children-remove?
14:38:05 <fregl> I was just wondering how to tackle this
14:38:12 <mgorse> but this would mean that ATs might not see children-changed::remove events, for instance, so need to discuss it
14:38:22 <fregl> my problem is mostly that passing the child index along makes things hard
14:38:25 <API> well, fwiw some weeks ago we talked with Company, and he is not sure about the index stuff
14:38:34 <API> as some widgets don't have inherently a order
14:38:38 <mgorse> another option might be for the app-side AT-SPI implementor to send -1 for the detail, and then libatspi would fill in the index if it has the accessible cached
14:38:51 <mgorse> but, at least for MANAGES_DESCENDANTS objects, it won't have the child cached
14:38:59 <fregl> mgorse: that would work for me
14:39:20 <joanie> so would these be MANAGES_DESCENDANTS objects fregl?
14:39:23 <fregl> for manages descendants I would think we shouldn't send child removed/added
14:39:28 <fregl> joanie: no
14:39:47 <fregl> it is a general thing in how object deletion works in the case of Qt in many cases
14:40:00 <API> fregl, so that -1 is an option for you?
14:40:13 <API> I mean, send -1 on the index if it is not possible to send the proper one
14:40:17 <fregl> the parent get's it's pointer to the child removed and the child still knows the parent when I get the notification
14:40:26 <fregl> API: yes, the -1 as detail would be perfect
14:40:43 <fregl> and when it's not cached, all should be fine anyway as far as I understand
14:40:44 <API> ok, so I guess that we can assume that in general:
14:40:46 <joanie> and having at-spi deal with it would be perfect
14:40:48 <API> and update the documentation:
14:40:50 <API> http://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#AtkObject-children-changed
14:41:06 <API> adding that -1 will be sent if it is not possible to know the index
14:41:19 <API> mgorse, do you agree?
14:41:22 <fregl> sweet
14:41:22 <API> hmm, stupid question
14:41:27 <API> you proposed that ;)
14:41:27 <mgorse> Having AT-SPI fill in the index might not always work or be easy, though
14:41:40 <fregl> well, what is the index used for?
14:41:50 <mgorse> ie, if a children-changed:add event was send for the object, would it include the object path of the added child?
14:41:53 <joanie> mgorse: we can punt in the worst case
14:42:19 <joanie> fregl: depends on the app
14:42:24 <mgorse> if not, then the child won't be cached, unless AT-SPI were to ask for the child, which I'm not sure is what we want, either
14:42:28 <joanie> often we don't care
14:43:14 <joanie> in the case of impress I think the index is going to prove handy in terms of being able to communicate slides and placeholders that were just removed
14:43:22 <fregl> I thought the whole purpose of this function was to just let the app know that the thing is no longer available
14:43:33 <mgorse> I guess we could always do that for now, have KDE send -1 for the detail, and AT-SPI would fill in the index if it has it cached, and deal with it later if it winds up causing problems for someone
14:43:38 <joanie> but what thing fregl?
14:43:51 <joanie> without the index we know that one of the children of the object went away
14:44:08 <joanie> if we care which one (i.e. to say 'slide 5 deleted')
14:44:09 <API> mgorse, as I said Company is not also sure about that index
14:44:10 <fregl> joanie: no, you also get the path of the removed child
14:44:11 <joanie> we don't know
14:44:24 <joanie> the path?
14:44:29 <fregl> joanie: yes, the path
14:44:30 <joanie> but not the index?
14:44:31 <API> although I guess that in the same way that we can document that -1 should be used if not index is available
14:44:34 <fregl> the dbus path
14:44:44 <joanie> who is we?
14:44:45 <API> we should also said that this would be the lesser evil
14:44:49 <joanie> I'm an AT
14:44:59 <fregl> joanie: at-spi dbus
14:45:03 <fregl> so the other side
14:45:14 <mgorse> fregl: When a child is added, do you send the path? I remember you talking about not wanting to instantiate objects unless they're needed, and getting a path requires instantiating an object
14:45:43 <fregl> mgorse: actually we worked around that by patching the qt dbus implementation for this
14:46:16 <fregl> I think it is very silly anyway - right now I send: parentpath children-changed:add index 0 childpath
14:46:24 <mgorse> oh okay. If you send the object path and a children-changed event when an object is added, then it should be cached, unless it has MANAGES_DESCENDANTS
14:46:24 <fregl> so you get redundant information
14:46:52 <fregl> ok
14:47:03 <fregl> I really need to read the atspi code more
14:47:10 <fregl> but all seems fine now
14:47:41 <fregl> right now I send -1 as index for object removed already and that probably doesn't work
14:47:54 <mgorse> Anyway, I guess we can conclude this / add a #info
14:48:00 <fregl> great
14:48:46 <mgorse> #info If an app sends -1 for the detail for a children-changed, we will assume that the index is unknown
14:48:49 <API> yes please
14:49:01 <fregl> my current state is that I want to release a beta and get people to test for real now. I got startup time and memory usage to almost nothing.
14:49:16 <mgorse> #info mgorse will modify libatspi to fill in the index when possible (ie, when it has the child cached, which it will not for trees with MANAGES_DESCENDANTS for instance)
14:49:29 <fregl> mgorse: you rock!
14:49:31 <joanie> (woo hoo fregl! Congrats!!!)
14:49:44 <API> #info AtkObject:children-changed documentation will be updated, as this could be also used on ATK implementors
14:49:54 <API> well, anything else?
14:49:55 <joanie> by whom API?
14:49:59 <API> I can do that
14:50:02 <fregl> tables/trees with millions of lines cause no delay any more, that was what worried me :D
14:50:14 <API> well in fact it is more an action item
14:50:19 <API> but that just a nitpick
14:50:21 <joanie> #action Piñeiro will update the documentation
14:50:21 <mgorse> Oh; that's an improvement over gtk :)
14:50:36 <joanie> API it's a nitpick to you who doesn't deal with minutes :-P
14:50:42 <API> anything else in this point?
14:52:05 <API> ... silence ....
14:52:08 <API> ok, moving
14:52:16 <API> #topic CSUN Speaker Proposals
14:52:24 <joanie> API no
14:52:26 <API> joanie, you added this poing, AFAIK
14:52:27 <API> no?
14:52:35 <joanie> clown: added stuff
14:52:38 <API> hmm, last minute changes ;)
14:52:41 <joanie> I mean we could do this out of order
14:52:45 <joanie> but...
14:52:49 <API> #topic quick update on gs-mag
14:52:52 <clown> sure.  I think I put my addition in the wrong place on the agenda, as it relates to 3.2 progress.  If you want to postpone until we deal with 3.2 progess..
14:53:05 <joanie> clown: please go on
14:53:08 <API> no problem, I just have that page open
14:53:15 <API> we can go in order
14:53:17 <API> clown please
14:53:23 <clown> okay.  it's fairly quick anyhow.  I'll just add some #infos.
14:53:33 <clown> #info Joseph submitted a new patch for the zoom options dialog in universal access.
14:53:40 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=643086#c27
14:53:40 <tota11y> 04Bug 643086: normal, Normal, ---, control-center-maint, NEW, Universal access:  add dialog for zoom options
14:53:49 <clown> #info awaiting review.
14:53:53 <clown> and...
14:53:58 <clown> #info Re: Joseph's invert video patch for gs-mag
14:54:04 <clown> #info https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=639851#c8
14:54:04 <tota11y> 04Bug 639851: normal, Normal, ---, gnome-shell-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Magnifier:  Add brightness and contrast functionality.
14:54:09 <clown> #info suggestion is to move it to Clutter.
14:54:40 <clown> that last one is a bit of a surprise -- it would be cool if anyone who used Clutter had access to it.
14:54:47 <API> brightness and contrast funcionality on clutter?
14:55:02 <clown> yes, and lightness inversion.
14:55:05 <API> something like a property on the actor or the stage?
14:55:14 <clown> yes, exactly.
14:55:25 <clown> there already is, in clutter, various tint and other effects.
14:55:38 <clown> and an abstract class for any effect.
14:55:49 <API> well, the good thing is that would allow to access to those effects to more apps
14:55:55 <API> more easily I mean
14:55:58 <clown> I just implemented a specific object for the effects needed for the magnifier.
14:56:05 <clown> yes, exactly API.
14:56:38 <clown> #action  Joseph to reply on bug to say, "yes, let's move these effects to clutter".
14:56:42 <clown> done.
14:57:08 <API> ok, more questions, comments, doubts in this point?
14:58:30 <API> #topic CSUN Speaker Proposals
14:58:31 <API> joanie, ?
14:58:37 <joanie> Thanks API
14:58:44 <joanie> I'll #info to be efficient.
14:59:14 <joanie> #info While we are still waiting for the budget to be approved, the treasurer and Board have not yet told us we are insane.
14:59:34 <heidi> Just to clarify, are we talking about the conference end of Feb to March in San Diego
14:59:35 <heidi> ?
14:59:39 <joanie> #info We anticipate being able to send two speakers to CSUN, the key being "speakers"
14:59:41 <joanie> heidi yes
14:59:49 <heidi> THanks
15:00:06 <API> heidi, he have been talking about that conference last meeting, we decided to not use the budget for a booth
15:00:07 <joanie> #info CSUN call for papers typically opens in September. It's now August.
15:00:17 <API> but it would be still interesting to send peoople to talk about GNOME
15:00:30 <joanie> #info Now might be the time for anyone who would make a good speaker to consider speaking and thinking about topics.
15:00:33 <joanie> (done)
15:01:37 <API> I will use the "lets use native english speakers" poker ;)
15:01:46 <joanie> hahaha
15:02:01 <joanie> I will suggest that is nonsense.
15:02:16 * clown wonders how many native english speakers are present.
15:02:24 <joanie> exactly
15:02:30 <jjmarin> lalala
15:02:40 <joanie> jjmarin: ;-)
15:02:42 * clown there's a native english singer present.
15:02:54 <prlw1> I'm a tenor :-)
15:03:02 <API> well, it seems that there aren't too many people there
15:03:10 <API> anyway, we don't have all the people here
15:03:13 * heidi looked at this conference last year and it is in direct conflict with the main CS educators conference and can't go
15:03:17 <API> for example, eitan usually goes there
15:03:24 <clown> well, it's something for me to contemplate while on vacation next week.
15:03:33 <joanie> clown: +1
15:03:36 <API> so how about send a mail to gnome-list abou this?
15:04:02 <API> and that clown comment is also a +1 to my proposal of use the ml
15:04:11 <joanie> #action Joanie will send a mail to gnome-accessibility-list suggesting people be thinking about presenting at CSUN.
15:05:03 <joanie> that ai is brought to you by the suffix -ing
15:05:47 <prlw1> I could redo my fosdem talk on dasher/opengazer/nomon/ticker ?
15:06:10 <joanie> prlw1: I've not seen the talk, but potentially, yes.
15:06:25 <joanie> like I said, call for papers is not for a month
15:06:31 <joanie> but time travels quickly
15:06:43 <joanie> so I'm asking people to start pondering the possibilities now
15:07:58 <clown> joanie, so the steps are (1) propose a paper, (2) get confirmed as a speaker, (3) apply to gnome-foundation?
15:08:10 <joanie> yup
15:08:26 <clown> any chance gf will say "no" at step 3?
15:08:41 <clown> or, you could be a confirmed speaker, but not receive funding.
15:08:43 <joanie> assuming our budget gets approved, which I think it will
15:08:52 <clown> ok
15:08:53 <joanie> we have budgeted two speakers
15:08:56 <joanie> from our team
15:09:07 <joanie> including the possibility they might need to travel from Europe
15:09:42 <mgorse> Are we budgeting for people to attend the whole conference? Or just come one night in order to give a presentation?
15:09:46 <joanie> and I cannot imagine our team going crazy and submitting tons of papers that get accepted.
15:10:10 <clown> i can  imagine it.  but I doubt it will happen that way :-)
15:10:10 <joanie> mgorse: more than a night, less than the full conference
15:10:20 <joanie> hah
15:10:59 <joanie> for fy2013 we budgeted much more for CSUN
15:11:25 <joanie> in the hopes that we'll have a real "story to tell" then
15:11:58 * clown once upon a time ...
15:12:07 <joanie> in a galaxy far, far away
15:12:17 <joanie> API the natives are getting restless
15:12:20 <joanie> I think we can move on
15:12:28 <API> yes, we don't have much time
15:12:31 <heidi> On a related note, does anyone know the dates for the GNOME Summit in Boston this fall?
15:12:38 <API> do you want some #infos for the last chitchatting?
15:12:42 <joanie> heidi: almost certainly columbus day weekend
15:12:48 <joanie> API not really
15:12:49 <joanie> lol
15:12:56 <heidi> joanie: Thanks, last year it wasn't for some reason...
15:12:58 <API> ok
15:13:06 <joanie> piggybacking on another event
15:13:15 <API> #topic Testing Distro
15:13:21 <mgorse> heidi: Linux Plombers was in Boston last year, and it looks like it moves around, so it won't be there this year
15:13:26 <API> is there something to talk about it?
15:13:28 <joanie> Yeah, I added that one
15:13:35 <heidi> joanie: Thanks
15:13:41 <joanie> I'm going to be my "direct" self I'm afraid :-/
15:13:48 <joanie> so.... testing distro was super useful
15:13:52 <joanie> and all kinds of awesome
15:14:06 <joanie> but I think most of us (all of us but clown???) are no longer using it
15:14:22 <joanie> and Javi is having difficulties spinning the "last" one
15:14:38 <joanie> so I'm wondering if it is time to move on w.r.t. the testing distro
15:14:48 <clown> yes, I am waiting for the latest spin -- "we" promised it to AEGIS europe for their user testing.
15:14:48 <joanie> clown? others?
15:15:10 <clown> alas, we need it.
15:15:14 <joanie> aleiva: jjmarin: is jhernandez in shouting distance?
15:15:37 <clown> is korn here?
15:15:50 <API> what kind of problems with the testing distro is jhfernandez having?
15:16:08 <clown> he was also very interested in having it as a basis for some other a11y stuff.
15:16:23 <joanie> clown: Is he willing to pay Emergya to do this work?
15:16:24 <jjmarin> joanie: nop. he's a at home. He's a little bit sick I'm afraid
15:16:54 <joanie> clown: because it seems to me that if the "team" who needs it is really AEGIS because Peter wants it
15:17:06 <joanie> and Javi is crazy busy (and sick! :-( )
15:17:11 <joanie> and having build problems
15:17:22 <joanie> clown: aleiva you see the above?
15:18:20 <aleiva> �sorry, rebooting
15:18:35 <joanie> API getting back to your question, it's come up in the minutes of previous meetings. Some of it is, I believe, packaging issues. Others is that the build service goes down a lot.
15:18:46 <joanie> aleiva: meaning you are back now?
15:18:53 <joanie> or going away?
15:18:56 <aleiva> just back now
15:20:03 <joanie> #info Given the amount of trouble Javi has been having with the testing distro "final spin," she questioned who all is using it.
15:20:29 <joanie> #info Joseph indicated that it is required, "promised to AEGIS europe for their user testing."
15:20:55 <aleiva> well, we're volunteers
15:21:05 <aleiva> so, when we "promise" something exactly?
15:21:15 <joanie> #info Joanie thinks that AEGIS user testing, while valuable, goes well beyond the scope of GNOME Accessibility Team needs and what the volunteers (i.e. Javi) can be asked to do.
15:21:19 <joanie> aleiva: patience
15:21:42 <aleiva> the mother of science
15:21:43 <aleiva> :-)
15:22:11 <jjmarin> :)
15:22:20 <API> well, anything else in this point?
15:22:29 <joanie> ugh
15:22:29 <aleiva> anywy, we're open to any talk about this
15:22:31 <aleiva> API: nop
15:22:35 <joanie> everyone just wait ffs
15:22:36 <joanie> ;-)
15:22:44 * API stops to poke people
15:23:06 <joanie> #info Joanie would encourage the AEGIS testing folks to find some other means for achieving their needs/goals in this area.
15:23:16 <joanie> done.
15:23:18 <joanie> sorry
15:23:27 <joanie> language is such a delicate thing
15:23:29 <joanie> ;-)
15:25:57 * API API start to poke people again
15:26:01 <API> ok, anything else?
15:26:25 <aleiva> nope
15:26:28 <jjmarin> nop
15:26:54 <API> ok,
15:27:00 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
15:27:14 <API> so, someone has something to say
15:27:17 <API> short
15:27:20 <API> not scheduled?
15:27:35 <aleiva> see you guys at berlin :-)
15:28:31 <fer> see you!
15:28:54 <jjmarin> \o/
15:30:05 * heidi waves
15:30:23 <API> well as is seems that nobody needs to add anything
15:30:31 <API> I will close the meeting
15:30:35 <API> #endmeeting