14:36:13 <joanie> #startmeeting
14:36:13 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jul 28 14:36:13 2011 UTC.  The chair is joanie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:36:13 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:36:45 <joanie> Agenda in the topic as usual, though we are switching the order slightly based on who is present.
14:36:54 <joanie> #topic evicam inclusion into the GNOME a11y stack
14:37:02 <joanie> This was added by jjmarin
14:37:10 <joanie> jjmarin: I'm not sure if everyone here knows you
14:37:19 <joanie> so mind doing a brief introduction first?
14:37:55 <jjmarin> I'm Juanjo marin, I'm a gnomer and I'm from Spain
14:38:17 <jjmarin> I don't have too much experience with a11y
14:38:23 <joanie> (yet) :-)
14:38:36 <jjmarin> the most related work I've done
14:38:48 <jjmarin> is the inverted-color feature in Evince
14:39:11 <jjmarin> and lately I'm trying to push some work in a11y
14:39:45 <jjmarin> Lately I was asking to a Spanish association called ASPACE
14:39:55 <jjmarin> to collaborate with us
14:40:16 <jjmarin> by the moment, they are evaluating the a11y gnome tools
14:40:40 <jjmarin> and I think the first point I want to talk is relate with this :-)
14:40:58 <alibezz> great!
14:41:10 <joanie> I'm really glad you're here jjmarin. And welcome!
14:41:33 <jjmarin> thanks !!! :-)
14:41:53 <API> good intro
14:42:01 <API> and now, describe eviacam ;)
14:42:01 <joanie> So the floor and the 'meeting sceptre' continues to be yours re eviacam.
14:42:04 <joanie> :-)
14:42:23 <jjmarin> eViacam is a mouse replacement software that moves the pointer as you move your head
14:42:43 <jjmarin> The only special you need is a webcam
14:42:59 <jjmarin> http://eviacam.sourceforge.net/eviacam.php
14:43:26 <jjmarin> there some screenshots there and some videos
14:44:22 <jjmarin> It seems a good piece of software and I think is good idea to consider to add it to GNOME
14:44:37 <joanie> I tried it and I think it's pretty cool
14:44:59 <API> well, it is makes sense to consider it, if we finally conclude that mousetrap is dead
14:45:07 <API> as I really think that opengazer is dead
14:45:11 <API> but
14:45:13 <jjmarin> the problem is that it is written with wxWidgets
14:45:18 <API> looking at both repositories
14:45:24 <API> eviacam seems really more active
14:45:27 <API> and yes
14:45:31 <clown> wxWidgets?
14:45:40 <API> as jjmarin said  right now it uses wxWidgets
14:45:46 <API> clown, another widget library
14:45:57 <API> the advantage is that it is cross-platform
14:46:06 * clown wonders how many widget sets it takes to screw in a light bulb.
14:46:10 <API> eviacam uses it to have a windows and linux version
14:46:20 <clown> that's a plus.
14:46:21 <API> I don't know too much the details
14:46:29 <API> but I think that in linux it uses gtk
14:46:35 <jjmarin> I asked to the develper, and he said he didn't used GTK+ because he was worried about doesn'y look native in Windows
14:46:40 <API> something similar to a backend
14:46:43 <clown> so, it automatically implements ATK?
14:46:56 <API> no, afaik
14:47:02 <API> another thing to test
14:47:05 <API> but
14:47:15 <API> although it implements ATK
14:47:26 <API> having a hard dependency to wxWidgets is a no-no
14:47:37 <API> in order to have eviacam integrated on GNOME
14:47:47 <API> at least as a tested app
14:48:11 <API> qt was recently a no-no on the keyboard on screen work done on gnome-shell
14:48:17 <jjmarin> I think that if we show that if can looks great in GNOME and have a native look in Windows we can attract a new application and a new developer
14:48:40 <API> jjmarin, that means that right now it doesn't look great in GNOME?
14:48:56 <API> in the same way, was it tested on GNOME shell?
14:49:05 <jjmarin> joanie: what do you think it looks in GNOME ?
14:49:26 <joanie> jjmarin: My opinion on how things look in GNOME is not sanctioned by the design team. ;-)
14:49:35 <clown> lol...
14:49:43 <joanie> (sorry)
14:49:47 <jjmarin> I mean, maybe we can do an iteration with the design team
14:49:50 <jjmarin> :-)
14:50:03 <joanie> I think that first thing would be to see if we can make it "native" regardless of appearance
14:50:19 <joanie> and then worry about the design team next
14:50:53 <clown> is evicam supposed to work with both gnome 3.2 as well as gnome 3.x?
14:51:18 <jjmarin> yes
14:51:30 <joanie> clown: and it really is cool technology
14:51:31 <joanie> imho
14:51:34 <clown> okay.
14:51:52 <clown> I was going to suggest possibly using st toolkit ...
14:52:11 <clown> since that might satisfy the designers
14:52:19 <clown> but that's not possible with gnome 3.2
14:52:25 <API> clown, satisfy the designers is not only about use st
14:52:28 <jjmarin> AFAIK, the windows look'n feel isn't depurated with GTK+
14:52:31 <API> it also require to follow guidelines
14:52:34 <API> and anyway
14:52:38 <API> as jjmarin is saying
14:52:47 <API> gtk apps also have "approved look and feel"
14:53:05 <API> it would be consider to use st for the ui
14:53:15 <API> if there are some specific problems in order to interact with the shell
14:53:23 <API> like the keyboard on screen work
14:53:28 <API> that was started because at that time
14:53:28 <clown> okay -- more to explore, then.
14:53:35 <API> caribou didn't work well on overveio
14:53:36 <jjmarin> what is st ?
14:53:38 <API> overrview
14:53:45 <API> jjmarin, st == shell toolkit
14:53:48 <clown> st it the widget set that gnome shell uses.
14:53:51 <API> widget toolkit used by gnome-shell
14:54:02 <jjmarin> ok
14:54:37 <clown> aside: jjmarin, I am Joseph Scheuhammer, I'm a part time gnomer, part time W3C (ARIA), and have been doing a11y in various ways for a few years.
14:55:09 <jjmarin> clown: nice to meet you :-)
14:55:14 <clown> likwise.
14:55:24 <clown> "likewise"
14:55:55 <joanie> So... Other thoughts/questions about eviacam?
14:55:58 <joanie> Next steps?
14:56:24 <jjmarin> we need to ask what is the status of the windows look and feek
14:56:40 <joanie> (ask whom?)
14:57:12 <jjmarin> gtk+ developers
14:57:42 <jjmarin> for some guidance for making a css theme/engine for windows
14:57:52 <API> hmmm
14:57:57 <API> I don't see too much future to that
14:58:07 <API> gtk 3.0 support for windows is almost abandonware
14:58:53 <jjmarin> API: Posibly true, but asking is free :-)
14:58:58 <joanie> so API what do you think the next steps are?
14:59:00 <joanie> :-)
14:59:00 <API> and usually asking gtk developers to "I need you to do something that I require for my specific app" doesn't work
14:59:11 <API> if eviacam want to be integrated on GNOME
14:59:20 <API> I fear that most of the work will be placed on eviacam side
14:59:33 <API> so I think that first step
14:59:39 <API> is look at this wxwidget thing
14:59:52 <API> and as uses gtk somehow
15:00:07 <API> check if would be possible to see if can be more "GNOME feel and look"
15:01:16 <joanie> and do so without using wxwidgets you mean?
15:01:39 <API> no,
15:01:48 <API> I mean that if wxwidgets is using gtk on linux
15:01:57 <API> as backend
15:02:11 <API> probably we can convince GNOME to accept that external dependency
15:02:15 <joanie> aha
15:02:18 <joanie> cool
15:02:22 <API> but I don't know about wxwidgets internals
15:02:40 <API> so step 1: how wxwidgets uses gtk?
15:02:54 <API> step 2: can be used that "gtk use" to get eviacam more "GNOME alike"?
15:03:07 <API> step 3: that means that wxwidgets could be an acceptable dependency?
15:03:13 <API> the difference with qt
15:03:22 <API> is that qt is a total thing
15:03:35 <API> ah
15:03:42 <joanie> jjmarin: Do you have time and interest to look at step 1 (and possibly consider step 2 with Cesar)?
15:03:50 <API> step 4: as clow says, as wxwidgets uses gtk, that means that have ATK support?
15:04:02 <clown> if it matters, the website (http://www.wxwidgets.org/) says that wxwidgets is written in C++,  How easy is it to communicate between C++ and C (GTK).
15:04:09 <jjmarin> I'll do the research :-)
15:04:14 <jjmarin> for step 1
15:04:15 <joanie> jjmarin: you rock!!
15:04:20 <joanie> thank you
15:04:45 * jjmarin likes researching
15:04:45 * heidi wonders what "qt" is
15:04:48 <joanie> so given the time.... Any questions other thoughts on eviacam?
15:05:19 <API> heidi, qt is the widget stack used on KDE
15:05:26 <heidi> Ah, thanks!
15:05:36 <jjmarin> heidi: http://qt.nokia.com/products/
15:06:08 <joanie> #action Joanie will update the minutes to reflect the current discussion and next steps.
15:06:11 <jjmarin> clown: gtkmm
15:06:39 <clown> jjmarin: thanks.
15:06:51 * clown always learns something new coming to these meetings.
15:06:53 <joanie> Okay, so I think we need to move on.
15:06:57 * joanie does as well
15:06:58 <heidi> jjmarin: thanks
15:07:03 <joanie> jjmarin: thank you so much!
15:07:15 * heidi Me too!
15:07:15 <joanie> since mgorse is here.....
15:07:24 <joanie> #topic Nuke at-spi/at-spi2 coexistence?
15:07:26 <mgorse> I'm here. Sorry for coming late.
15:07:33 <joanie> API raised this
15:07:42 <API> hi
15:07:43 <joanie> mgorse: can we stop the coexistence stuff?
15:07:47 <API> well, I raised it
15:07:52 <API> on previous meeting
15:07:53 <API> misc time
15:08:01 <API> now we are doing it more officially ;)
15:08:04 <joanie> :-)
15:08:07 <API> my opinion: we should nuke it
15:08:12 <API> it never worked really well
15:08:14 <joanie> +1
15:08:19 <API> and most of the people were not using it
15:08:27 <API> and at-spi will die soon
15:08:28 <jhernandez> +1
15:08:35 <API> so lets keep both as totally separated apps
15:08:41 <API> just my opinion
15:08:47 <joanie> I agree
15:08:52 <API> and collaterally
15:08:56 <mgorse> okay; I'm adding that to my to-do list
15:09:01 <API> that would allow at-spi2 to remove any gconf support
15:09:08 <API> as gconf is also dying
15:09:13 <API> as with any other GNOME stuff
15:09:17 <API> dying slowly
15:09:23 <API> mgorse, ok, thanks
15:09:32 <clown> I have a question
15:09:37 <mgorse> #info mgorse will remove the relocate checks from AT-SPI2
15:09:59 <joanie> clown: ask away
15:10:13 <clown> I was using accerciser with FF under GNOME3 this week, and in order to get it working, I had to set a gconf setting (fer advised me to do this).
15:10:26 <clown> Is any of this relevant to the current discussion of atspi?
15:10:31 <joanie> oh yeah, I hate that.
15:10:47 <clown> fer hates it too :-0
15:10:52 <jhernandez> clown: master is using gsettings to check the a11y-toolkit
15:10:54 <joanie> I don't think it does. But can we talk about that in #a11y after the meeting?
15:11:03 <clown> sure.
15:11:05 <jhernandez> JFYI
15:11:09 <joanie> jhernandez: not with firefox
15:11:13 <joanie> it's a long story
15:11:17 <jhernandez> ok
15:11:18 <joanie> clown: thanks
15:11:21 <jhernandez> is there a bug?
15:11:22 <clown> wlcm
15:11:27 <joanie> so we're going to nuke co-existence
15:11:29 <clown> jhernandez:  maybe...
15:11:30 <joanie> moving on?
15:11:34 <clown> sure, move on.
15:11:35 <jhernandez> clown: ok
15:11:37 <joanie> :-)
15:11:38 <jhernandez> yep
15:11:43 * joanie skips to jhernandez :-)
15:11:52 <joanie> #topic Testing Distro - plans and status?
15:11:56 <joanie> floor is yours
15:11:59 <jhernandez> ok
15:12:31 <jhernandez> at this moment, I'm having lot of problems in using opensuse11.4 as our base distro
15:12:44 <jhernandez> and, I'm rebuilding a few packages
15:13:42 <jhernandez> but, the process is slow, since I'm using the opensusebuildservice for packaging the rpms
15:14:17 <jhernandez> and obs is down a lot of days
15:14:17 <jhernandez> :(
15:14:37 <clown> "obs"?
15:14:47 <jhernandez> obs=opensuse build service
15:14:49 <joanie> jhernandez: so was the plan just one more spin?
15:14:51 <clown> thanks
15:14:56 <jhernandez> joanie: yes
15:15:13 <joanie> and then move to the broader work with fred crozat?
15:15:15 <jhernandez> I'm finishing this spin, and prepairing another testing distro
15:15:20 <jhernandez> yep
15:15:24 <joanie> cool
15:15:56 <joanie> jhernandez: mind #info'ing this as I already have a lot of minutes to write. ;-)
15:16:15 <jhernandez> it will be a good opportunity for to check the gail-to-gtk movement
15:16:30 <jhernandez> ok
15:16:58 <jhernandez> #info I'm having lot of problems in using opensuse11.4 as our base distro, and, I'm rebuilding a few packages
15:17:18 <jhernandez> #info the process is slow, since I'm using the opensusebuildservice for packaging the rpms and obs is down a lot of days
15:18:04 <jhernandez> #info the intention is to finish this last spin, and get focus into the new global - testing distro spins
15:18:24 <jhernandez> I'm done
15:18:34 <jhernandez> ok?
15:18:51 <clown> and ETA?
15:18:54 <clown> dare I ask?
15:18:59 <jhernandez> clown: no prob
15:19:12 <jhernandez> next two weeks, I'll be more relaxed at work
15:19:32 <jhernandez> so, I'll can focus more on finishing this
15:19:38 <clown> okay, we should talk a bit after the meeting, if you can, jhernandez
15:19:45 <jhernandez> clown: ok
15:19:45 <jhernandez> ;)
15:19:49 <joanie> thanks jhernandez!
15:19:54 <clown> ditto
15:19:54 <jhernandez> joanie: :]
15:20:10 * joanie moves on (or back)
15:20:21 <joanie> #topic Desktop Summit
15:20:34 <joanie> Two areas of discussion: Simon and general collaboration
15:20:44 <joanie> jjmarin: floor is yours again :-)
15:20:59 <jjmarin> Simon is a recognition program and replaces the mouse and keyboard.
15:21:08 <jjmarin> It uses two speech recognition: Julius and for some advanced features HTK.
15:21:31 <jjmarin> The main developer is going to give a talk in the DS
15:21:57 <jjmarin> I was thinking about collaborate with simon
15:22:14 <jjmarin> I think we need a deeper study of what technologies and applications there are out there to down what we want and how is the best way to get there.
15:22:21 * joanie would love to see gnome have speech recognition
15:22:21 <jjmarin> about simon
15:22:35 <jjmarin> simon has good pieces. AFAIK
15:22:48 <jjmarin> - An interesting plugin scenario for supporting different applications or case uses
15:23:01 <jjmarin> You can adapt a model to your voice using HTK
15:23:15 <jjmarin> It works (more than less. The main problem is the lack of good models)
15:23:25 <API> lack of good models?
15:23:27 <API> voice models?
15:23:34 <API> like for different languages?
15:23:42 <jjmarin> exactly
15:23:47 <jhernandez> I'm wondering if this models are related with the speech-recognition
15:24:05 <jjmarin> Yes, only some languages have good models
15:24:22 <jjmarin> so, it isn't a fault of simon
15:24:23 <jhernandez> ok
15:24:26 <joanie> many languages seem to have no models, from what I can tell.
15:24:54 <jjmarin> You need 3 models for making a speech recognition works: acoustic model, phonetic dictionary and language mode
15:25:02 * alibezz thinks that speech recognition is an amazing research area :)
15:25:18 <jhernandez> alibezz: +1
15:25:37 <jjmarin> alibezz: BTW, it seems you need to have Ph.D. to understand how all the of speech recognition systems works, but hopefully our mission is just to apply these speech technologies :-))
15:26:24 <jjmarin> The main problems in simon
15:26:34 <jjmarin> Very Qt-specific, even the daemon
15:26:43 <jjmarin> Some license issues with HTK
15:26:44 <jhernandez> woow
15:26:48 <jhernandez> the daemon too?
15:26:53 <alibezz> jjmarin: yeah, so it seems.
15:27:03 <joanie> jjmarin: I thought simond didn't require qt :-/
15:28:04 <joanie> hmmm. Grepping suggests I might be wrng
15:28:10 <joanie> and also wrong
15:28:16 <API> and we go again with "qt is a no-no for gnome" ...
15:28:25 <API> well, I think that the summary then is
15:28:34 <API> #info simon is a really interesting tool
15:28:46 <API> #info we need to investigate if it can be integrated and how on GNOME
15:28:58 <API> #info we could talk with simon developer on desktop summit
15:29:07 <API> #info qt dependency worries us
15:29:10 <API> something else?
15:29:14 <jjmarin> yes
15:29:18 <clown> #info simon is a voice recognition program to replace mouse and keyboard.
15:29:34 <jjmarin> it doesn't support CMU Sphinx which it seems is the most promising speech technologies, though simon it seems they have interest in supporting CMU Sphinx.
15:29:37 * alibezz feels sad that she's not attending the desktop summit =/
15:29:50 <jjmarin> here are several incarnations of CMU Sphinx, though the ones that are currently  supported are PocketSphinx and Sphinx-4
15:29:51 * clown loves the sphinx analogy.
15:30:03 <jjmarin> PocketSphinx, a version of Sphinx that can be used in embedded systems is under heavy delevelopment. Also, PocketSphinx supports GStreamer like most of the mobile platforms do, so I think this can attract commercial support for working on this.
15:30:16 <jjmarin> Latest VEDICS has been rewritten in Python, supports GNOME 3 to some extent, and it uses Sphinx 4 (Java incarnation of Sphinx). The old gnome-voice also supported Sphinx via PocketSphinx.
15:30:38 <API> and both are underdeveloped
15:30:45 <API> this is the reason we are checking simon
15:30:51 <API> that seems really more active and complete
15:30:55 <jjmarin> VEDICS seems more limited than simon, and g-v-s is dead
15:31:30 <API> saying so
15:31:34 <API> just to share my opinion
15:31:38 <API> for the speech thing
15:31:48 <API> I really thing that it would be better if someone
15:31:57 <API> appears wanting to resurrect gnome voice control
15:32:03 <API> but as this is really
15:32:06 <API> unlikely
15:32:10 <API> we are checking simon
15:32:17 <joanie> unlikely unless we find funding
15:32:29 <API> well but
15:32:33 <API> if nobody is working
15:32:42 <API> means that people would work on that as far as funding is here
15:32:50 <API> I mean that it would be better a project
15:32:58 <API> with community around
15:33:02 <API> and use funding just to
15:33:11 <API> accelerate the work
15:33:16 * joanie nods
15:33:48 <joanie> which gets back to the sub point on that topic
15:34:08 <joanie> While I will not be at the Desktop Summit, I do think it would be an awesome opportunity to look for chances to collaborate
15:34:10 * heidi Notes that there is an effort at University of New Hampshire working on Sphinx
15:34:12 <joanie> with the KDE folks
15:34:19 <joanie> heidi: Really?
15:34:36 <joanie> Since I'm here, perhaps I should look into that.
15:34:45 <joanie> and/or you could heidi if you have those connections
15:34:50 <heidi> Yes, I went to a POSSE Basics course over this past weekend and one of the people there is working on Sphinx.
15:34:56 * heidi Looking for the name of the person
15:35:29 <joanie> So, at 15:35....
15:35:37 <joanie> #topic Miscellaneous Time
15:35:38 <jhernandez> joanie: about DS, maybe we can talk to them, about the possibilities in collaboration
15:35:46 <joanie> jhernandez: I think so
15:35:47 <heidi> Mike Jonas
15:35:52 <jjmarin> it seems PocketSphinx is the hot topic in the speech recognition field
15:36:21 <joanie> (thanks Heidi)
15:36:23 <heidi> joanie: I'll put Mike in contact with you? He may be doing something with students either starting in September or Jan.
15:36:34 <joanie> sure!!
15:36:35 <heidi> I'll also let him know of the a11y meetings
15:36:38 <heidi> OK, will do
15:36:40 <joanie> awesome!
15:37:23 <joanie> So.... Anything not on the agenda people want to get in as parting shots?
15:37:42 <jhernandez> I have a question about g-v-c
15:37:48 <joanie> sure
15:37:57 <jhernandez> what is the current status?
15:38:04 <jjmarin> RIP
15:38:07 * joanie mutters 'no no no'
15:38:10 <joanie> and looks for link
15:38:22 <API> jhernandez, it was mostly without commits for two years
15:38:25 <jhernandez> I mean, what work does it need to be, at least a walking dead application :P
15:38:28 <jjmarin> lastest changes were made for Guadalinfo Accesible
15:38:28 <jhernandez> ?
15:38:28 <API> until one spanish company made a improvement
15:38:35 <API> for guadalinfo
15:38:35 <API> yes
15:38:44 <API> well, first
15:38:47 <API> being migrated
15:38:55 <API> as it still uses CSPI
15:38:58 * clown voice recognition seems to involve sphinxes and zombies...
15:39:00 <joanie> jhernandez: https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/festlang-gvc/2011-May/000079.html
15:39:08 <jjmarin> and bonobo
15:39:10 <jhernandez> API: I know, maybe aleiva knows more about this guadalinfo work
15:39:19 <API> jhernandez, we also contacted original
15:39:23 <API> we == joanie and me
15:39:27 <API> contacted maintainers
15:39:34 <API> about if they have any plans to do that or future release
15:39:38 <API> his answer: no
15:39:55 <API> jhernandez, well in summary
15:40:00 <API> it was about creating a spanish model
15:40:05 <API> and being sure that worked on g-v-c
15:40:08 <API> thats all
15:40:21 <jhernandez> API: ok, thanks
15:40:24 <API> g-v-c was awarded with two or three commits in relation with that work
15:40:48 <jhernandez> joanie: the link is LOL
15:40:51 <jhernandez> xDDDDDDD
15:40:59 <jhernandez> ok
15:41:01 <joanie> it's sad, but... yeah.
15:41:18 <jhernandez> so, it's dead and unmaintained
15:41:28 <jhernandez> :(
15:41:46 <jjmarin> jhernandez: but if you like zombies :-)
15:41:47 <joanie> dunno if it's worth forking it and progressing it or not
15:41:53 <joanie> :-)
15:42:16 <joanie> So.... Anything else?
15:42:19 <jjmarin> I think instead of making choices
15:42:20 <jhernandez> jjmarin: xD
15:42:20 * joanie raises gavel
15:42:26 <API> jhernandez, well we said that is is dead because it is unmaintainded
15:42:28 * clown wonders what a sphinx does when a zombie fails to answer its riddle.
15:42:47 <jjmarin> based only what we have, we can write down first what we want
15:43:02 <jhernandez> API: of course, sorry for being redundant, dead = unmaintained :P
15:43:20 <joanie> +1 jjmarin
15:43:25 * joanie bangs gavel
15:43:28 <joanie> #endmeeting