1 14:35:26 <API> #startmeeting
   2 14:35:26 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jul 21 14:35:26 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 14:35:26 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 14:35:43 <API> #topic Q2's
   5 14:35:54 <API> well, Im a bad student
   6 14:35:57 <API> I didn't do my homework
   7 14:36:01 <API> this topic is a reminder
   8 14:36:16 <API> #info Emily Chen send another reminder, please fill Q2 reports
   9 14:36:43 <API> joanie, do you have here the link to share?
  10 14:36:53 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2011/Q2
  11 14:37:12 <joanie> mgorse: if you have anything about AT-SPI2 to add that would be good
  12 14:37:44 <joanie> #action Joanie will work with Piñeiro to fill in the hackfest details for the Q2's.
  13 14:37:44 <mgorse> yeah; bug fixes mostly
  14 14:37:54 <joanie> mgorse: that would be awesome
  15 14:38:08 <joanie> hey, the only do events when ATs are listening is Q
  16 14:38:10 <joanie> oops
  17 14:38:12 <joanie> q2
  18 14:38:15 <joanie> or q3?
  19 14:38:41 <mgorse> oh, right; q2 I think
  20 14:38:55 <joanie> mgorse: that would be super to include
  21 14:39:16 <API> ok, so I think that we don't need to say to much here
  22 14:39:19 <API> please all people
  23 14:39:25 <API> do the homework (me included )
  24 14:39:34 <API> questions, doubts, extra info?
  25 14:39:38 * joanie looks menacingly at the people
  26 14:41:25 <API> ok, lets assume
  27 14:41:27 <joanie> so moving on?
  28 14:41:30 <API> that silence is not questions
  29 14:41:31 <API> yeah
  30 14:41:49 <API> #topic CSUN
  31 14:42:03 <API> #info some weeks ago Eitan send a mail to the list about CSUN
  32 14:42:34 <API> #info now a11y group need to decide if a GNOME booth makes sense next year
  33 14:42:39 <clown> #info http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2011-July/msg00016.html
  34 14:42:43 <API> in summary, there are a lot of things to do
  35 14:42:58 <API> and in general GNOME a11y need a lot of improvements
  36 14:43:00 <API> so
  37 14:43:07 <API> what people thinks?
  38 14:43:24 <API> it is worth to use GNOME funds on that booth?
  39 14:43:32 <joanie> In my mind I would say no.
  40 14:43:35 <API> some extra info
  41 14:43:49 <clown> who is going to attend?  I doubt that I will.
  42 14:44:02 <API> #info Davidb reported that probably next year Mozilla will not get a Firefox booth
  43 14:44:05 <clown> sounds like something Bryen might be interested in.
  44 14:44:17 <API> that would mean no free software booth there
  45 14:44:23 <joanie> clown: Bryen stepped down from his marketing "position" last year.
  46 14:44:36 <clown> joanie:  ah, okay.
  47 14:45:01 <API> clown,  and in the same way it is also about the money
  48 14:45:07 <API> just the booth is about 2k $
  49 14:45:09 <API> afair
  50 14:45:14 <joanie> yup
  51 14:45:23 <API> then you must add travel committe stuff
  52 14:45:28 <API> for the people willing to be there
  53 14:45:29 <clown> that's ...  a significant cose.
  54 14:45:29 <joanie> and the hotel is crazy expensive
  55 14:45:32 <clown> "cost"
  56 14:45:54 <API> joanie, well, the year I was on CSUN I didn't use the conference hotel
  57 14:46:00 <API> mainly for that cost thing
  58 14:46:07 <API> just for your information
  59 14:46:23 <joanie> any hotel in the neighboard is not trivial in cost
  60 14:46:46 <fer_> the booth was a nice thing to have, but I think that the networking there was more important
  61 14:46:46 <joanie> it's just a matter of costly or crazy expensive
  62 14:47:11 <fer_> however, to do networking without a booth, you need to know "the guys"
  63 14:47:31 <API> fer_ so I assume that your vote is "send some people to networking and probably to do an talk, but no booth"
  64 14:48:15 <fer_> API: I didn't attend any talk there, so I am not sure about the talks side
  65 14:49:10 <API> other years, people like Willie or Eitan also gave talks there
  66 14:49:18 <joanie> #info Joanie's feeling is that we should only fund people who have approved talks.
  67 14:49:18 <API> not only attended
  68 14:49:26 <fer_> and how many people attended those talks?
  69 14:49:34 <API> well, about the costs
  70 14:49:40 <joanie> last talk I gave was about 75 people
  71 14:49:41 <fer_> I think the question here is: what do we want from CSUN?
  72 14:49:41 <API> you needed to pay an entrance fee
  73 14:49:42 <joanie> but that was years ago
  74 14:50:01 <fer_> visibility? talking with other free software or commercial software AT guys?
  75 14:50:03 <API> AFAIK, if you have an booth they give you an attendance entrance
  76 14:50:06 <joanie> #info Speaker registration is approximately $400
  77 14:50:19 <fer_> API: no
  78 14:50:29 <fer_> I had a booth registration without talk entrance :)
  79 14:50:30 <joanie> yeah, we need to cover speaker registration too.
  80 14:50:37 <API> fer_, well, as far as I remember, we + firefox were the free software AT guys
  81 14:50:45 <API> don't know if last year were more people
  82 14:50:47 <API> NVDA?
  83 14:50:52 <API> GNU accessibility there?
  84 14:51:00 <joanie> Chris went
  85 14:51:05 <joanie> Janina
  86 14:51:13 <joanie> Jamey
  87 14:51:15 <joanie> dunno about Mick
  88 14:52:07 <API> and we go back to square 1
  89 14:52:14 <API> yes it would be interesting to be there
  90 14:52:23 <API> and interesting to have a booth to promote GNOME a11y
  91 14:52:28 <API> the question is
  92 14:52:34 <API> it is worth?
  93 14:52:52 <API> speaker registration = 400 $
  94 14:52:58 <API> booth = 2k $
  95 14:53:06 <API> add travel costs
  96 14:53:17 <API> + hjotel
  97 14:53:25 <API> joanie, aprox 1k $?
  98 14:53:33 <joanie> easily
  99 14:53:40 <API> ok,
 100 14:53:41 <joanie> unless people are fairly local
 101 14:53:48 <API> so the cost would be
 102 14:53:56 <API> just speakers: aprox 1.4 $
 103 14:54:03 <API> with booth: 3.4 $
 104 14:54:05 <API> *but*
 105 14:54:15 <API> with a booth we would require more that 1 person
 106 14:54:21 <API> with booth: 4.4 $
 107 14:54:42 <API> all that stuff is objective
 108 14:54:45 <API> now my opinion
 109 14:54:51 <API> personal
 110 14:55:15 <API> #info Piñeiro thinks that although there are a lot of "code stuff" to do it is still important to market GNOME
 111 14:55:24 <API> #info ie: to get more funds
 112 14:55:45 <API> #info Piñeiro thinks that it would be interesting to at least send a speaker there
 113 14:55:58 <API> #info not sure if it is worth the "full package" 2 speakers + booth
 114 14:56:41 <API> so, people?
 115 14:56:44 <API> what do you think?
 116 14:56:55 <API> joanie and I already talked
 117 14:57:30 <fer_> I am not sure
 118 14:57:51 <fer_> but probably I would say no, unless we have extra money
 119 14:58:16 <fer_> evangelization is not top priority right now from my point of view
 120 14:58:21 <joanie> +1
 121 14:58:52 <joanie> for the sake of minutes, it would be helpful to log these as #info
 122 14:59:07 <joanie> i.e. if later people ask
 123 15:00:40 <joanie> clown: mgorse thoughts?
 124 15:00:52 <joanie> nice
 125 15:01:15 * clown waits for API to come back... but not a lot of thought about this topic.
 126 15:01:15 <fer_> he
 127 15:01:40 <API> sorry
 128 15:01:44 <API> more opinions?
 129 15:01:56 <mgorse> It could be good for networking, but on the other hand it costs money
 130 15:02:41 <joanie> Do we agree it's worth sending speakers if we can find people to speak?
 131 15:02:41 <clown> I'm not sure what the gain (or loss) is.  Is CSUN still the main a11y tech conference?
 132 15:02:59 <joanie> clown: in terms of professionals+consumers yes
 133 15:03:17 <joanie> there are different conferences and conventions for the separate groups
 134 15:03:22 <mgorse> I think that would make sense--it would be a much lower budget operation than last year, at least
 135 15:03:47 <clown> and, if Mozilla is giving up on a booth -- that says something.
 136 15:03:54 * joanie nods
 137 15:04:29 <API> clown, about Mozilla, one of the reasons was that it required two people most of the time tied to the booth
 138 15:04:37 <API> they plan to go but without the booth
 139 15:04:49 <clown> they being davidb and others?
 140 15:04:56 <mgorse> From what I gather, the Mozilla people think the networking more valuable than the booth and feel tied down by having the booth
 141 15:05:06 <fer_> yes
 142 15:05:42 <clown> in that case, if any of us are going (either as attendees or speakers), then we should network too.  and forego the booth.
 143 15:05:43 <fer_> https://twitter.com/#!/davidbolter/status/93730136029003776
 144 15:05:51 <API> mgorse, yes exactly, this is wat davidb said, good summary
 145 15:06:20 <API> ok, so in summary most people agree
 146 15:06:32 <API> that would make sense to go there if any speak is approved
 147 15:06:34 <API> but not the booth
 148 15:06:37 <API> right?
 149 15:06:42 * joanie nods
 150 15:06:47 <clown> another question, since I have not been to CSUN in years:  is the focus these days on desktop a11y, or web a11y?
 151 15:06:49 <API> in that case we can take that into account for next year budget
 152 15:07:13 <API> clown, I was there two years ago, and  it is mostly desktop
 153 15:07:18 <API> but also a lot of web
 154 15:07:19 <API> imho
 155 15:07:41 * clown speculates it will be about mobile and 'iPad" a11y in the coming years.,
 156 15:08:08 <API> clown, there were also about mobiles
 157 15:08:16 <API> ie there was a nokia booth there
 158 15:08:22 <API> although without too many info
 159 15:08:22 <fer_> what about sharing a booth between open source projects?
 160 15:08:27 <API> anyway this is somewhat offtopic
 161 15:08:34 <API> fer_, which open source projects?
 162 15:08:36 <fer_> KDE + GNOME + mozilla?
 163 15:08:39 <API> NVDA has a stand there?
 164 15:08:47 <fer_> no. They used mozilla one
 165 15:08:52 <API> hmm
 166 15:08:57 <API> well yes this is an option
 167 15:08:58 <clown> which won't be there this time...
 168 15:09:33 <API> but people would still be tied to the booth
 169 15:09:54 <fer_> yeah, but 6 people is not the same than 2-3
 170 15:09:55 <fer_> whatever
 171 15:10:26 <API> anyway, this topic has been too long,
 172 15:10:33 <API> we can't use all the meeting for that
 173 15:10:38 <fer_> agreed
 174 15:10:41 <API> so, in order to conclude
 175 15:10:56 <API> #info general feeling is that a exclusive GNOME booth it is not worth
 176 15:11:20 <API> #info Fernando Herrera mentioned the possibility of a shared open source booth, still need to be discussed, but not really clear
 177 15:11:26 <API> anything else before moving on?
 178 15:12:12 <API> ok, lets move
 179 15:12:21 <API> #topic Desktop Summit BoF
 180 15:12:52 <API> #info Piñeiro still need to send a mail to check if people assisting to the Desktop Summit are interested on an a11y bof
 181 15:12:53 <API> sorry
 182 15:12:59 <API> doubts, questions, ocmments?
 183 15:13:53 <joanie> API it occurs to me it might be handy if the Simon dev were invited
 184 15:14:07 * joanie is starting to wish she were going.
 185 15:14:27 <API> joanie, I will add him to the list
 186 15:14:29 <API> thasnk
 187 15:14:40 <joanie> thank you
 188 15:14:51 <API> so as no questions
 189 15:15:00 <API> #topic GNOME 3.2 progress
 190 15:15:08 <API> fer_, mgorse clown joanie ?
 191 15:15:17 <API> and the others of course
 192 15:15:28 <API> some brief #info if you have something new, please
 193 15:15:32 <jhernandez|eee> API: bof proposals period ended, isn't it?
 194 15:16:23 <joanie> #info Joanie believes introspection for Orca (and Accerciser) believe still depends on John Palmieri merging a fix into pygobject master.
 195 15:16:39 <joanie> #info Ale is supposed to be making progress on the Orca GUI work.
 196 15:17:04 <API> jhernandez|eee, yes, we already said on our last #a11y meeting ;)
 197 15:17:14 <API> but it is still possible to propose, the drawback
 198 15:17:15 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: I thought the deal was that officially bof proposal period has ended, but there is still space and the possibility of working it out.
 199 15:17:16 <API> is that
 200 15:17:26 <API> it would be more difficult to find a official place
 201 15:17:29 <jhernandez|eee> API ok
 202 15:17:44 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: ok
 203 15:17:46 <API> joanie, introspection for Orca?
 204 15:17:49 <API> what do you mean?
 205 15:18:08 <API> you mean Orca using last pythong bindings based on introspection?
 206 15:18:15 <joanie> I mean that I've been doing the Orca conversation to.... yes
 207 15:18:21 <joanie> and there's a rather ugly bug
 208 15:18:36 <joanie> which causes memory-based segfaults 100% of the time
 209 15:18:40 <jhernandez|eee> this bug also affects accerciser
 210 15:18:55 <joanie> And I do not *think* John's merged the fix into master yet
 211 15:19:05 <joanie> although he's made a bunch of changes recently so we need to check
 212 15:19:34 <joanie> btw jhernandez|eee: https://desktopsummit.org/program/workshops-bofs (3rd paragraph from the bottom)
 213 15:19:38 <API> so that "smooth" transition to gobject based pythong bindings are not as smooth as promised I see
 214 15:20:16 <API> well, others?
 215 15:20:20 <mgorse> #info mgorse proposed a (rather ugly) patch to get gnome-terminal working again and is working on making atk-bridge able to be unloaded
 216 15:20:21 <clown> nothing new from me on 3.2 progress, but ...
 217 15:20:27 <clown> #action Joseph to update the GNOME Shell Magnifier  section of  the gnome-a11y 3.2 issues page.
 218 15:20:36 <API> mgorse, patch on gnome-terminal? on gail?
 219 15:20:59 <mgorse> API: on vte. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=654630
 220 15:20:59 <tota11y> 04Bug 654630: normal, Normal, ---, vte-maint, UNCONFIRMED, accessibility needs updating to work with gtk 3.1 refactor
 221 15:21:14 <API> mgorse, ok thanks
 222 15:21:53 <API> ok, anything else in this topic?
 223 15:22:01 <API> more #info, questions, doubts, menaces?
 224 15:23:21 <API> ok, silence == moving on
 225 15:23:27 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
 226 15:23:38 <API> anyone has something to share not included on the agenda?
 227 15:24:08 <joanie> #info Joanie recently did a complete team wiki overhaul. Removing cruft and reorganizing pages. Hopefully everything can still be found (i.e. fixed broken links, etc.).
 228 15:24:45 <joanie> #info Joanie still needs to do the same for the "GAP" pages.
 229 15:24:58 <joanie> (done)
 230 15:25:18 <mgorse> Are the GAP pages still used?
 231 15:25:25 <joanie> they shouldn't be
 232 15:25:29 * joanie grins
 233 15:26:01 <jhernandez|eee> API: backing to desktop summit
 234 15:26:10 <API> jhernandez|eee, shoot
 235 15:26:14 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 236 15:27:11 <jhernandez|eee> which is the intention? if do you have it
 237 15:28:32 <API> jhernandez|eee, well, it is a bof, so it would be informal
 238 15:28:33 <jhernandez|eee> it's a simple workshop about: 'hey, this is a11y, and this is like we work blablabla' or people working on?
 239 15:28:41 <API> talk face to face about last changes on atk
 240 15:28:49 <API> gail to gtk migration
 241 15:28:54 <API> community stuff and so on
 242 15:28:56 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 243 15:29:01 <API> in summary, like a big weekly meeting
 244 15:29:03 <API> but face to face
 245 15:29:15 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 246 15:29:20 <joanie> I'd be interested in seeing if Simon could be easily modified to use AT-SPI
 247 15:29:28 <joanie> and Gtk+ified
 248 15:30:33 <API> joanie, in general "be used on GNOME world"
 249 15:30:59 <joanie> it can be now (though it's a pain and a half)
 250 15:31:06 <joanie> but look more gnomey
 251 15:31:16 <clown> with a red hat?
 252 15:31:25 * clown that was a really bad pun...
 253 15:31:36 * jhernandez|eee looking for a link to simon ...
 254 15:31:38 <API> ok, and taking into account that we are already over meeting time
 255 15:31:39 <joanie> and I've got some tentative ideas about ways to rely less upon scenarios for just basic commands
 256 15:31:46 <API> one last quick shot?
 257 15:31:52 <API> for miscellaneous time?
 258 15:31:55 <jhernandez|eee> not from my side
 259 15:32:24 <API> jhernandez|eee, simon is a voice desktop control app, that seems really more maintained that VEDICS or GNOME VOICE CONTROL
 260 15:32:43 <API> it woudl be awesome to have that kind of tools on GNOME
 261 15:32:52 <API> and really awesome one being really maintained
 262 15:32:53 <joanie> and better maintained
 263 15:32:54 <clown> voice command/recognition?
 264 15:33:00 <API> clown, yes
 265 15:33:06 <clown> API, thanks.
 266 15:33:12 <API> ah
 267 15:33:18 <API> I have one shot
 268 15:33:23 <API> mgorse, the other day
 269 15:33:28 <API> using at-spi2-atk
 270 15:33:43 <API> it was using gconf to check that corba relocation stuff
 271 15:33:56 <API> what about just nuke all the relocation stuff from at-spi2?
 272 15:34:07 <API> and start to think that at-spi corba was the past?
 273 15:35:06 <mgorse> yeah, I could remove it, if people think I should
 274 15:35:38 <joanie> mgorse: I think so
 275 15:35:45 <clown> remind me:  corba is gone from GNOME 3, right?
 276 15:35:55 <joanie> clown: yup
 277 15:36:00 <API> clown joanie well
 278 15:36:04 <API> it is still over there
 279 15:36:09 <API> gconf is still also here
 280 15:36:10 <clown> so, the only reason would be to support GNOME 2?
 281 15:36:27 <clown> oh, it has some presence, API?
 282 15:36:31 <API> but in theory corba and gconf should disappear as fast as possible
 283 15:36:43 <API> clown, because some modules didn't migrate yet
 284 15:36:55 <joanie> well, I guess bonobo is what's really gone (right?)
 285 15:37:03 <clown> API, but those modules *will* migrate soon?
 286 15:37:08 <joanie> gconf doesn't depend on it if memory serves me
 287 15:37:11 <clown> or soon-ish?
 288 15:37:14 <joanie> just liborbit
 289 15:37:41 <API> clown, those modules are asked to migrate soon
 290 15:38:11 <clown> at first guess then, I'd say that at-spi2 should track their schedule.
 291 15:39:55 <API> more about "people should migrate"
 292 15:39:58 <API> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-July/msg00019.html
 293 15:40:00 <API> and said so
 294 15:40:05 <API> 10 meetings over time
 295 15:40:07 <API> argh
 296 15:40:11 <API> 10 minutes over time
 297 15:40:13 <joanie> heh
 298 15:40:14 <API> lets finish this
 299 15:40:17 <API> #endmeeting