1 14:34:33 <API> #startmeeting
   2 14:34:33 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu Jun 16 14:34:33 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
   3 14:34:33 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
   4 14:34:45 <API> agenda on the topic
   5 14:35:11 <API> #topic Testing Distro
   6 14:35:25 <API> so clown jhernandez|afk
   7 14:35:25 <API> hmm
   8 14:35:26 <API> afk
   9 14:35:27 <API> :P
  10 14:35:39 <API> well, clown jhernandez|afk any update, I guess that clown can start
  11 14:35:55 * clown gathering my thoughts
  12 14:36:26 <clown> last week, I provided a patch to orca to upgrade from using GConf to GSettings ...
  13 14:36:49 <clown> ... that, at least, initialized the orca <-> gs-mag communication ...
  14 14:37:02 <clown> ... joanie committed a modified version of that patch ...
  15 14:37:20 <clown> ... but it revealed another bug, which I am currently fixing ...
  16 14:37:31 <jhernandez|eee> clown: ok
  17 14:37:40 <clown> ... once that fix is done, I want that version of orca on the testing distro.
  18 14:37:44 <clown> done
  19 14:38:20 <jhernandez|eee> I know about first bug, not second
  20 14:38:26 * clown looks it up.
  21 14:38:35 <clown> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652500
  22 14:38:35 <tota11y> 04Bug 652500: major, Normal, ---, clown, ASSIGNED, DBusException seen when Orca is running with gnome-shell mag
  23 14:38:55 * clown love tota11y
  24 14:39:03 <jhernandez|eee> so, If you want, I can update orca's package with these patches
  25 14:39:13 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: or I could roll a tarball
  26 14:39:23 <jhernandez|eee> and  to generate a new spin
  27 14:39:24 <joanie> because I've made a bunch of other mag related changes
  28 14:39:27 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: of course
  29 14:39:32 <jhernandez|eee> I know
  30 14:39:35 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: or you could roll one ;-)
  31 14:39:35 <jhernandez|eee> so, make sense
  32 14:39:42 <joanie> but I'm volunteering if you're busy
  33 14:39:54 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: nice
  34 14:40:13 <jhernandez|eee> so
  35 14:40:33 <API> ok, people, and now try to sort out all those data
  36 14:40:40 <jhernandez|eee> please, to all a11y haackers, if they want new features included?
  37 14:40:40 <joanie> :-)
  38 14:40:40 <API> and prove pretty #info
  39 14:40:43 <API> please :P
  40 14:40:59 <clown> API, I'll try to summarize my summary with info's
  41 14:41:00 <jhernandez|eee> update the wiki properly
  42 14:41:07 <jhernandez|eee> clown: ok
  43 14:41:20 <clown> #info provided a patch to orca to upgrade from using GConf to GSettings
  44 14:41:40 <clown> #info that fixed orca <-> gs-mag communication
  45 14:42:13 <clown> #info had the effect of revealing another bug, a dbus exception
  46 14:42:24 <clown> #info which I am currently fixing
  47 14:42:25 <clown> done
  48 14:42:47 * clown passes conch to others
  49 14:42:55 <jhernandez|eee> IMHO, this spin will not be so 'public' as others, and I'm thinking that if we start with the  new testing spins plans, this spin will be our last only-focused one
  50 14:43:15 <jhernandez|eee> JFYI
  51 14:43:18 <jhernandez|eee> :]
  52 14:43:39 <API> jhernandez|eee, and this leads to next subitem in this topic
  53 14:43:40 <API> :P
  54 14:43:44 <joanie> not done
  55 14:43:45 <jhernandez|eee> ok
  56 14:43:48 <API> ups
  57 14:43:53 <API> ok, please joanie go on
  58 14:44:05 <joanie> #Action Joseph will provide a patch to fix bug 652500
  59 14:44:05 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652500 major, Normal, ---, clown, ASSIGNED, DBusException seen when Orca is running with gnome-shell mag
  60 14:44:23 <joanie> #Action Joanie will roll a new tarball from master once she has Joseph's patch
  61 14:45:00 <joanie> #Action Javi will spin a new (and possibly the last accessibility-specific) spin of the testing distro once he has the new tarball from Joanie and any other required changes requested by our team.
  62 14:45:04 <joanie> (done)
  63 14:45:28 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: thanks!
  64 14:45:42 * joanie wonders if the bot commands are case-sensitive and hopes not :-/
  65 14:45:44 <joanie> oh well
  66 14:45:45 <mgorse> Hi all. Sorry I'm late.
  67 14:46:09 <API> ok
  68 14:46:11 <API> so as I said
  69 14:46:14 <API> jhernandez|eee, and this leads to next subitem in this topic
  70 14:46:33 <API> jhernandez|eee, any update about conversations with crozat/peterS?
  71 14:47:11 <jhernandez|eee> not so much, but,
  72 14:48:25 <jhernandez|eee> I wanted to hear a11y feelings about the possibility of only to provide our own tarballs instead of tarballss ad-hoc
  73 14:48:43 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: I don't get the question
  74 14:48:53 <clown> what are "ad hoc" tarballs?
  75 14:48:57 * joanie nods
  76 14:49:06 <jhernandez|eee> don't know how will I manage this thing with not a11y mods
  77 14:49:09 <jhernandez|eee> well
  78 14:49:30 <jhernandez|eee> sorry, maybe ad-hoc isn't the right word
  79 14:49:57 <jhernandez|eee> we are providing some code not included in master
  80 14:50:11 <jhernandez|eee> don't know if we actually have this situation
  81 14:50:28 <jhernandez|eee> don't know if all API changes were pushed to gnome-shell master, for example
  82 14:50:32 <API> well, yes, one of the ideas of the distro are try some patches not committed yet
  83 14:50:43 <jhernandez|eee> yes
  84 14:51:00 <clown> noting that patches for brightness/contrast effects in gnome-shell are not committed to master.
  85 14:51:06 <API> so you mean that crozat and peters only want tarballs with changes on the master?
  86 14:51:37 <joanie> (or are you just wondering how much of a pain it will be when everyone says, "and apply this patch and that patch Javi!"?)
  87 14:52:04 <jhernandez|eee> API totally not, but it couyld be
  88 14:52:13 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: yes
  89 14:52:15 <joanie> :-)
  90 14:52:18 <joanie> so....
  91 14:52:36 <joanie> why not make a 'no patches' rule?
  92 14:52:50 <clown> jhernandez|eee:  would it help if we provide tarballs where patches have already been applied?
  93 14:52:50 <joanie> i.e. you include from master (or whatever) OR the provided tarball
  94 14:52:55 <API> well, in our case we mostly were using the testing distro to test quickly some patches that were still reviewed ...
  95 14:53:12 <API> joanie, I'm somewhat lost now
  96 14:53:12 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: maybe we can keep a wiki for that, but I'll need some help for manage this if this causes lot of work
  97 14:53:28 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: tell me what needs managing?
  98 14:53:36 <API> what means this "not patches rule "
  99 14:53:50 <API> ?
 100 14:53:51 <joanie> API tarballs only
 101 14:54:01 <clown> API, I think we don't want to force jhernandez|eee to apply the patches himself.  Right?
 102 14:54:02 <joanie> i.e. if clown wants a patched version of Orca
 103 14:54:08 <joanie> Joanie rolls a tarball with that patch
 104 14:54:10 <API> and those tarballs with things from the master
 105 14:54:17 <API> or they can also have custom patches?
 106 14:54:23 <jhernandez|eee> this is my reason, if lot of people starts to providing patches, not sure if I can manage all these changes
 107 14:54:27 <API> custom patches == patches being reviewwed
 108 14:54:42 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: but here's what I'm trying to sort out:
 109 14:55:01 <joanie> Is the problem not having packages OR is the problem applying patches?
 110 14:55:06 <joanie> i.e. are tarballs a pain?
 111 14:55:29 * clown waves at korn
 112 14:55:33 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: I think that if there's no lot of people sending patches, it will be easy
 113 14:55:44 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: that wasn't what I asked you. :-)
 114 14:55:50 <jhernandez|eee> so, maybe we can start as we're doing
 115 14:55:53 <joanie> are tarballs a problem?
 116 14:56:12 <jhernandez|eee> not tarballs
 117 14:56:23 <joanie> and to be clear: patches ARE the problem, yes?
 118 14:56:25 <korn> Hi clown...
 119 14:56:25 <jhernandez|eee> in fact, tarballs are the best for me
 120 14:56:30 <joanie> awesome
 121 14:56:46 <joanie> so my proposal is this: Javi does NOT include patches. Period.
 122 14:56:53 <joanie> IF someone has a patch they want to include
 123 14:57:01 <API> ok, but those tarballs can be custom tarballs, right?
 124 14:57:05 <joanie> that someone needs to sort out how to get a tarball created
 125 14:57:08 <joanie> API: yes
 126 14:57:11 <API> ok
 127 14:57:12 <jhernandez|eee> API and joanie yes
 128 14:57:14 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 129 14:57:14 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 130 14:57:17 <joanie> i.e. in clown's case, I would roll a tarball
 131 14:57:27 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: Does that address your concerns? (really)
 132 14:57:36 <joanie> if it doesn't we'll find a different option
 133 14:57:41 * clown notes that there is a #agreed "command".
 134 14:57:43 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 135 14:57:59 * API thinks that clown suggestion is a good idea
 136 14:58:12 <joanie> clown's suggestion?
 137 14:58:17 * joanie scrolls back
 138 14:58:20 <clown> joanie: use #agreed
 139 14:58:23 <joanie> oh
 140 14:58:23 <joanie> lol
 141 14:58:24 <API> yep that one
 142 14:58:32 <API> so, now that we debated this
 143 14:58:34 <joanie> I thought we meant with tarballs v patches
 144 14:58:48 <API> jhernandez|eee, could you summarize all these with some #info and #agreed?
 145 14:58:56 <API> or there is something not discussed yet?
 146 14:59:04 <joanie> (and write in sentences and use proper names?)
 147 14:59:05 <jhernandez|eee> API, ok I'll try
 148 15:00:22 <API> jhernandez|eee, thakns
 149 15:00:25 <API> thanks in fact
 150 15:00:36 * clown alas joanie, "all commands are case sensitive" (http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html#commands)
 151 15:01:23 <joanie> clown: no worries. I will clean up the minutes. Thanks for looking it up!
 152 15:01:37 <joanie> or I'll hack our meetbot :-P
 153 15:01:42 <clown> whoops, I totally misread that.  it says "INsensitive"
 154 15:01:52 <joanie> lol
 155 15:02:08 <jhernandez|eee> #info Javi is afraid about how to manage new code into new spins and he asked a11y team if they're all agree with only provide tarballs, not isolated patches.
 156 15:02:26 <jhernandez|eee> ok?
 157 15:02:37 <jhernandez|eee> how should I use agreed?
 158 15:02:40 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: perfect!
 159 15:02:57 <joanie> according to the docs only API can
 160 15:02:58 <clown> #agreed  the a11y team will provide only tarballs to Javi
 161 15:03:03 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 162 15:03:04 * clown oh...
 163 15:03:09 <jhernandez|eee> ok
 164 15:03:22 <API> ok, so anything else in this topic=?
 165 15:03:25 <jhernandez|eee> clown: thanks
 166 15:03:31 <jhernandez|eee> not from my side
 167 15:03:33 <joanie> API: yeah, you need to do the agreed it seems
 168 15:03:35 <clown> API, you need to do the agreed thing
 169 15:03:39 <joanie> http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html#commands
 170 15:03:42 <API> ah ok
 171 15:03:50 <API> #agreed  the a11y team will provide only tarballs to Javi
 172 15:03:56 <jhernandez|eee> I hope next week we can talk about next spins
 173 15:04:05 * clown that sounds strangely familiar...
 174 15:04:13 <API> we are not in a jurry
 175 15:04:15 <API> hurry
 176 15:04:21 <API> we are doing a lot of things
 177 15:04:23 * clown never wants to be in a jury
 178 15:04:24 <jhernandez|eee> API: I know
 179 15:04:32 <API> so, as this point is finished
 180 15:04:34 <API> lets move
 181 15:04:48 <API> #topic Gtk+ Deprecations
 182 15:04:55 <API> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-June/msg00078.html
 183 15:05:21 <API> #info some gtk widgets were deprecated: GtkHBox, GtkVBox
 184 15:05:52 <API> #info this affects current gail implementation, and in fact, there are some warnings related to that
 185 15:06:14 <API> anyway, I don't know if this should be included on the gail-to-gtk move
 186 15:06:16 <joanie> #info Joanie opened bugs against Accerciser and Orca to do the needed changes, but this likely affects most of our team's modules.
 187 15:06:21 <API> or should be solved before that
 188 15:06:52 <API> hmm, strange that jjardon didn't created a metabug to solve that on the platform, as he usually does :P
 189 15:07:16 <alibezz> API: should we use -UGTK_DISABLE_DEPRECATED not to affect things so much?
 190 15:07:48 <API> alibezz, well, but thats a temporal solution
 191 15:07:58 <alibezz> API: yes
 192 15:08:03 <alibezz> what i mean is:
 193 15:08:14 <API> I mean that this would allow us to use them during some time, but in the end tose widgets will be removed
 194 15:08:21 <alibezz> will things break if we don't present a solution to that?
 195 15:08:37 <API> alibezz, eventually yes
 196 15:08:39 <alibezz> yes: the best is to really solve things.
 197 15:08:47 <alibezz> but while we don get there
 198 15:08:50 <API> as I said at a moment in the future those widgets would be removed
 199 15:08:55 <alibezz> do we NEED to use this flag?
 200 15:09:05 <API> alibezz, temporaly ;)
 201 15:09:12 <alibezz> good to know :)
 202 15:09:26 <alibezz> as joanie said, there is a bug for that in accerciser
 203 15:09:29 <API> but it is a good thing to add to minutes
 204 15:09:40 <joanie> oh, the numbers?
 205 15:09:45 <joanie> if so one sec
 206 15:09:48 <API> #info meanwhile this is not solved, modules can use  -UGTK_DISABLE_DEPRECATED
 207 15:09:58 <API> what numbers?
 208 15:10:15 <joanie> bug 652486
 209 15:10:15 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652486 normal, Normal, ---, accerciser-devel, NEW, Gtk+ H/V Subclass Deprecations
 210 15:10:31 * alibezz hopes to send a patch for that (accerciser one)
 211 15:10:32 <joanie> and bug 652485
 212 15:10:32 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652485 normal, Normal, ---, orca-maint, NEW, Gtk+ H/V Subclass Deprecations
 213 15:10:54 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: thanks for opening the bug ;)
 214 15:11:11 <alibezz> just for the record: I intend to work with accerciser bugs after finishing the mallard docs to learn more
 215 15:11:21 <alibezz> I intend to fix this one and some others, too.
 216 15:11:27 <jhernandez|eee> alibezz: we can talk about this laater
 217 15:11:29 <alibezz> joanie even suggested it to me
 218 15:11:42 <jhernandez|eee> since accerciser's still using gtk2
 219 15:11:59 <alibezz> jhernandez|eee: awesome
 220 15:12:02 <joanie> well, I think even in gtk2 you can use the alternatives
 221 15:12:14 <joanie> but like jhernandez|eee said, topic for a different place
 222 15:12:17 <alibezz> yes
 223 15:12:24 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: yes, but, I'm porting to gtk3
 224 15:12:46 <jhernandez|eee> and this will be done at the same time
 225 15:12:51 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: gotcha
 226 15:13:07 <jhernandez|eee> k
 227 15:13:11 <jhernandez|eee> :]
 228 15:13:17 <alibezz> oooooh makes more sense.
 229 15:13:24 <alibezz> this may be just a gtk+ 3 issue
 230 15:13:40 <alibezz> so maybe it doesn make sense in accerciser current branch
 231 15:14:02 <alibezz> good point I hadnt noticed. thanks.
 232 15:14:07 <jhernandez|eee> we can do that, but, we're going to port to gtk ASAP
 233 15:14:14 <jhernandez|eee> gtk3
 234 15:14:17 <jhernandez|eee> :]
 235 15:14:23 <joanie> so API moving on?
 236 15:14:30 <API> well, it makese sense
 237 15:14:33 * jhernandez|eee nods
 238 15:14:45 <API> jhernandez|eee, alibezz do you want to summarize on a #info something of what you said?
 239 15:15:31 <alibezz> API: yes
 240 15:16:13 <alibezz> #info after porting to gtk3, jhernandez may count on alibezz's help to fix bug 652485
 241 15:16:13 <tota11y> 04Bug https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=652485 normal, Normal, ---, orca-maint, NEW, Gtk+ H/V Subclass Deprecations
 242 15:16:13 <jhernandez|eee> I was checking last joanie's #info
 243 15:16:49 <API> ok, so moving on
 244 15:16:52 <jhernandez|eee> alibezz: ;)
 245 15:17:08 <API> on the agenda is also included others?
 246 15:17:17 <API> well, glib also make some deprecations,
 247 15:17:33 <API> but not sure if they would affect final apps or just base libraries
 248 15:17:41 <API> so not sure if it is worth to talk about them here
 249 15:17:54 <joanie> API I just added others because it sounds like the gtk folks are up to all sorts of changes which we might not be aware of but should be
 250 15:18:00 <API> so lets move to next topic
 251 15:18:15 <API> joanie, well if we are not aware, we can't talk about them :P
 252 15:18:28 <joanie> API but you might be aware of them
 253 15:18:44 <API> well, in the case of gtk
 254 15:18:48 <API> is just those
 255 15:19:07 <API> at least is the one affecting the gnome 3.1.2 release that I'm doing
 256 15:19:20 <API> the big problem is with G_CONST_RETURN deprecation
 257 15:19:28 <API> and as I said, not sure if they would affect final apps
 258 15:19:32 <API> so lets wait
 259 15:19:33 * joanie nods
 260 15:20:03 <API> #info, there are other deprecations, like in glib, but for the moment not clear if this will affect final apps or just base libraries
 261 15:20:18 <API> #info we will wait, and talk about it again in the future
 262 15:20:20 <API> so moving
 263 15:20:35 <API> #topic Action item updates
 264 15:21:21 <API> anything to add here?
 265 15:21:22 <API> joanie, ?
 266 15:21:44 <joanie> Well, I'd like updates on Mike's and Javi's especially
 267 15:21:51 <joanie> mgorse's is:
 268 15:21:56 <joanie> Modify atk-bridge not to listen for atk signals and send out events unless an AT is listening. (This will likely involve modifying at-spi2-core as well, to add a way of tracking active ATs.)
 269 15:22:10 <joanie> jhernandez|eee's is:
 270 15:22:14 <joanie> Investigate Matthias' statement that when he tries to run Accerciser in jhbuild on his system, it "locks up solid after a few minutes every single time."
 271 15:22:42 <jhernandez|eee> my turn
 272 15:23:12 <jhernandez|eee> I was investigating this, and I only had a only solid lock up
 273 15:23:25 <jhernandez|eee> I son't know if you're experimenting this
 274 15:23:59 <jhernandez|eee> but from my side, my only clue is this
 275 15:24:01 <jhernandez|eee> ** (accerciser:29792): WARNING **: at-spi: Got no message at atspi-accessible.c line 794
 276 15:24:09 <jhernandez|eee> and then it locked up
 277 15:24:40 <jhernandez|eee> I need to trace from where this problem is
 278 15:24:45 <joanie> I wonder if Matthias is getting that same error.
 279 15:25:10 <jhernandez|eee> Mathhias said to me that he didn't get anhy errors
 280 15:25:17 <mgorse> I think that means it tried to make a call and didn't get a reply
 281 15:25:22 <jhernandez|eee> so, don't really know if it's the  same issue
 282 15:25:45 <alibezz> did you make sure you're using the same jhbuild versions?
 283 15:25:57 <jhernandez|eee> mgorse: It could be a at-spi-dbus fall?
 284 15:26:19 <jhernandez|eee> mgorse: I'm using all from scratch, and in fedora 15, as Matthias
 285 15:26:53 <jhernandez|eee> s/mgorse/alibezz in last comment
 286 15:26:54 <jhernandez|eee> :P
 287 15:27:19 <jhernandez|eee> from scratch, I mean, masters
 288 15:27:31 <joanie> Given the time I'm not sure if we should sort out the exact problem here.
 289 15:27:52 <joanie> I think what's important is that jhernandez|eee is working on it. (yay!)
 290 15:27:56 * clown could go longer if needed
 291 15:28:04 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: totally agree, I was only exposing my info about this
 292 15:28:17 <joanie> jhernandez|eee: I know. :-)
 293 15:28:26 <joanie> if you could info a summary it would be awesome
 294 15:28:42 <joanie> and then later in #a11y perhaps we could all talk about it further?
 295 15:28:50 <API> oookkk
 296 15:28:57 <API> so, after all those bunch of lines ...
 297 15:29:06 <API> can I ask for come pretty #info ? ;)
 298 15:29:22 * joanie grins
 299 15:29:23 <jhernandez|eee> should I give a #info about this?
 300 15:29:29 * joanie laughs
 301 15:29:33 <joanie> yes please jhernandez|eee
 302 15:32:13 * clown just checking that I'm still connected (awfully quit in here).
 303 15:32:20 * clown "quiet"
 304 15:32:23 <jhernandez|eee> #info Javi's working on Matthias' reported issue. Javi had only a solid lock up with jhbuild, but he needs to investigate more about this, because isn't clear in how to make reproducible
 305 15:32:50 <jhernandez|eee> #info we have a clue to start from
 306 15:32:56 <jhernandez|eee> done
 307 15:33:19 <joanie> thanks jhernandez|eee!
 308 15:33:22 * jhernandez|eee apologies for to be a little slow
 309 15:33:24 <jhernandez|eee> :S
 310 15:33:25 <jhernandez|eee> :P
 311 15:33:31 <jhernandez|eee> joanie: ;)
 312 15:34:00 <joanie> mgorse: how are things coming on modifying the bridge to be quiet when no AT is listening?
 313 15:34:55 <mgorse> joanie: I still haven't done that. Sorry. Been working on some refactoring that fregl needs. I'll look into it once I have that code in a branch.
 314 15:35:47 <API> joanie, mgorse could you write that as a #info?
 315 15:35:57 <joanie> both of us?
 316 15:35:59 <joanie> ;-)
 317 15:36:27 <API> well, joanie made the question, mgorse the answer
 318 15:36:33 <API> so there are two #info here ;)
 319 15:36:37 <mgorse> #info mgorse hasn't yet added the "do nothing if no one is listening" to atk-bridge that he said he'd have done for 3.1.3
 320 15:37:11 <joanie> thanks mgorse
 321 15:37:23 <joanie> miscellaneous time or end of meeting API?
 322 15:37:48 <API> no, lets wait for jhernandez|eee #info
 323 15:37:55 <API> and after that ending meeting
 324 15:38:01 <joanie> API: but he did it
 325 15:38:02 <API> so today, no miscellaneous time
 326 15:38:04 <joanie> (right?)
 327 15:38:06 <jhernandez|eee> mm
 328 15:38:14 <jhernandez|eee> I did it
 329 15:38:15 <API> ah, I was waiting for a second part :P
 330 15:38:16 <API> ok
 331 15:38:22 <API> so, 10 minutes over time
 332 15:38:29 <API> sorry, no miscellaneous time
 333 15:38:36 <API> http://www.sadtrombone.com/
 334 15:38:40 <API> #endmeeting