Attachment '20110519_log.txt'
Download 1 14:35:05 <API> #startmeeting
2 14:35:05 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu May 19 14:35:05 2011 UTC. The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
3 14:35:05 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
4 14:35:24 <API> #topic ATK Hackfest Summary
5 14:35:37 <API> well, I will start myself
6 14:35:37 <fbotelho> thanks! will experiment quietly now.
7 14:35:48 <API> fbotelho, you are welcome
8 14:35:56 <API> we usually have also "miscellaneous" time at the end
9 14:36:07 <API> just in case someone wants to comment something out of the agenda
10 14:36:19 <API> and in the same way, anyone can edit the agenda
11 14:36:28 <API> anyway, about first topic
12 14:36:31 <API> the hackfest
13 14:36:46 <API> some brief conclusions from my side:
14 14:37:02 <API> as I said on my post it was more discussion and analysis oriented
15 14:37:23 <API> that real hacking oriented, although I guess that people also did some of that
16 14:37:38 <API> was also good to have people out of the "atk world"
17 14:37:52 <API> like fregl in order to have other point of views of the same problem
18 14:38:05 <API> and we discussed a lot of things
19 14:38:11 <API> and detected a lot of tasks
20 14:38:14 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011/Agenda
21 14:38:28 <API> now the problem is being able to solve/implement all those issues
22 14:38:36 <API> and this is a brief summary from my side
23 14:38:56 <API> so, any other pov to this summary?
24 14:39:06 <joanie> Not of the summary
25 14:39:13 * API don't want the only one talking about the hackfest ...
26 14:39:16 <joanie> but as you said, the next steps need to be discussed
27 14:39:29 <joanie> we have a huge list of to-dos resulting from the hackfest
28 14:39:33 <joanie> and need doers
29 14:39:43 <joanie> and to figure out what cannot be done by us in a reasonable time
30 14:40:00 <joanie> so that we can seek additional resources be they funding or people
31 14:40:05 <aleiva> from my point of view this hackfests should be each 6 months to redefine goals
32 14:40:37 <API> aleiva, and also to get some work done ;)
33 14:40:40 <aleiva> is a great way to make little sprints towards common goals, so make sense IMHO
34 14:40:45 <aleiva> API: sure
35 14:40:58 <API> as I said we didn't do too much developing work on the hackfest
36 14:41:01 <aleiva> API: one of planning one of real hack
37 14:41:22 <aleiva> maybe help to get forward
38 14:41:38 <API> aleiva, well, as we did a lot of planning, next ones could be just a little planning
39 14:41:40 <API> an update
40 14:41:47 <API> and then develop
41 14:41:48 <API> but
42 14:41:50 <API> anyway
43 14:41:56 <API> we can't assume
44 14:42:03 <API> that all the work will be done on hackfests
45 14:42:10 <API> there are a lot of things to do
46 14:42:22 <aleiva> no, that's not what I want to said, but it is a good checkpoint
47 14:42:23 <API> and hackfests are just one-week, one-weekend of work
48 14:42:37 <API> aleiva, yes, sure, just saying that explicitly
49 14:42:45 <aleiva> API: ok, perfect
50 14:43:39 <joanie> so about this most recent hackfest....
51 14:43:49 <joanie> We should plan the 'next steps'
52 14:43:53 <joanie> (I think)
53 14:44:31 <API> joanie, yes it makes sense
54 14:44:38 <aleiva> joanie: well I think that as you said we need to assign work to people and define dates
55 14:44:39 <API> on the hackfest we defined a lot of tasks
56 14:44:45 <API> but we need to classify them as
57 14:44:47 <API> short-term
58 14:44:50 <API> medium-term
59 14:44:53 <API> long-term
60 14:45:07 <aleiva> +1
61 14:45:16 <aleiva> so, action
62 14:45:19 <clown> +1 and "prioritize"
63 14:45:21 <mgorse> If it breaks API then it's long-term, I presume
64 14:45:23 <API> aleiva, and there is problem on the assign work thing
65 14:45:34 <API> at this moment, until other notice
66 14:45:37 * joanie smiles at mgorse
67 14:45:49 <API> this work is done by volunteers
68 14:45:54 <API> so we can't assign it
69 14:46:13 <API> people is the one that need to volunteer to do any specific tasks
70 14:46:19 <aleiva> well, maybe I use the wrong verb, I mean motivate people to choose and do taks
71 14:47:45 <aleiva> tota11y: action help
72 14:47:46 <tota11y> aleiva: Error: "action" is not a valid command.
73 14:47:47 <API> ok, so lets try to summarize this
74 14:47:58 <API> in a coherent way
75 14:48:25 <API> #info atk/at-spi2 hackfest were really productive
76 14:48:38 <API> #info but more about defining tasks that develop
77 14:49:03 <API> #action classify those tasks in short-medium-long term and prioritize
78 14:49:27 <API> #idea that also include other a11y tasks like the gail-to-gtk move
79 14:49:48 * joanie wonders whose action item that is
80 14:49:50 <API> anything else?
81 14:49:58 <API> joanie, what?
82 14:50:19 <joanie> action items without assignees (excuse me, volunteers) typically go undone
83 14:50:35 <API> ...
84 14:50:35 <API> yes
85 14:50:48 <aleiva> joanie: wake up
86 14:51:10 * aleiva thinks joanie is going to die...
87 14:51:18 <clown> API, joanie is pointing out that you created and action without a name
88 14:51:26 <clown> "an action"
89 14:51:29 <API> yes I know
90 14:51:31 <API> just thinking
91 14:51:35 <clown> ah, okay.
92 14:51:37 <aleiva> volunteer way :-P
93 14:51:40 <API> well, joanie
94 14:51:53 <joanie> API sorry asthma attack
95 14:51:54 <API> lets add you and me as volunteers on that task,
96 14:51:56 <API> ok?
97 14:51:58 <API> ah
98 14:51:59 <API> sorry
99 14:52:00 <joanie> yup
100 14:52:04 <joanie> no worries
101 14:52:11 <API> ok
102 14:52:11 <joanie> but that's why I stopped typing
103 14:52:15 <API> and talking about action items
104 14:52:20 <joanie> I agree we can do the AI
105 14:52:26 <API> we also need to review the current action items at the agenda
106 14:52:37 <API> ATK Hackfest participants should update the wiki page.
107 14:52:41 <API> is somewhat old ;)
108 14:52:43 <API> anyway
109 14:52:52 <API> anything else on the atk/at-spi hackfest point?
110 14:52:59 <API> anyother comment, proposal, question?
111 14:53:25 <joanie> not from me
112 14:54:24 <API> ok, so lets move to next point
113 14:54:42 <API> #item Accerciser GNOME 3 modifications
114 14:54:52 <API> I guess that this is jhernandez and bnitz point
115 14:54:54 <API> so ...
116 14:55:00 <API> any recent new about this?
117 14:55:08 <jhernandez> yes
118 14:55:57 <jhernandez> I'm still porting, from pygtk2 to pygi-gtk3
119 14:56:26 <fer> is that a pain in the ass? (I have to port dots)
120 14:56:41 <API> there is anything blocking it? or it is just a lot of work to do?
121 14:56:52 <jhernandez> anyway, I'll need some feedback ant take some decissions, because the many problems I'm having is by porting some plugins
122 14:57:04 <jhernandez> API: both of them
123 14:57:46 <API> jhernandez, could you elaborate that "plugin problem"?
124 14:57:47 <jhernandez> what i was going to do is to make an quick-easy poll
125 14:58:13 <jhernandez> API: many gtk.gdk imports
126 14:58:18 <jhernandez> is an example
127 14:58:24 <jhernandez> anyway, my poll was about
128 14:59:02 <jhernandez> are all plugins necessary to be ported yet? or someone could wait for the migration?
129 14:59:25 <jhernandez> i mean, I know that usually, a11y developers don't use all of these plugins
130 14:59:36 <jhernandez> sooo
131 14:59:40 <joanie> yeah, jhernandez I don't think we're using the validator
132 14:59:54 <joanie> and API browser is handy but redundant
133 14:59:58 <joanie> in that we have docs
134 14:59:59 <joanie> ;-)
135 15:00:02 <jhernandez> if anyone could point to me what features are more critical
136 15:00:33 <API> jhernandez, well, so you want to port in the same group accerciser and
137 15:00:34 <API> hmm
138 15:00:37 <API> "the core" plugins
139 15:00:54 <API> but you are not sure what plugins are the most important
140 15:00:55 <API> right?
141 15:01:03 <jhernandez> yes, but plugins are in accerciser's code
142 15:01:19 <jhernandez> that's my question, yes
143 15:01:35 <jhernandez> for example, what component do you usually use from accerciser?
144 15:01:45 <joanie> I think the important ones are interface viewer and event monitor
145 15:01:50 <API> plugins are in accerciser code?
146 15:01:52 <joanie> those are the two I use the most anyway
147 15:02:02 <API> ok I thought that they were third-party plugins
148 15:02:09 <jhernandez> maybe, I can improve this accerciser's port by parking some old-code
149 15:02:40 <jhernandez> makes sense?
150 15:02:41 <fer> I mostly use Interface viewer and console
151 15:02:49 <clown> From the point of view of testing ARIA implementation in FF4, what plug-ins might be needed?
152 15:03:04 <joanie> doh yes to ipython console
153 15:03:23 <fer> probably also event monitor is widely used, but I use my own custom python script to grab events and dump to a text file
154 15:03:36 <jhernandez> ok
155 15:04:19 <jhernandez> bnitz: ping
156 15:04:21 <fer> I would say that script recorder, API browser and validator are low priority
157 15:04:21 <jhernandez> around?
158 15:05:12 <jhernandez> fer: that's what i thought ... thanks!
159 15:05:25 <API> jhernandez, so in the end you need a poll, or it would be enough from the responses of the people?
160 15:05:39 <jhernandez> for me it's ok
161 15:06:01 <jhernandez> I assume that there are high and low priorities
162 15:06:04 * API poking msanchez, as he is also an hard accerciser user
163 15:06:27 * API it is easier when we both are at the office
164 15:06:49 <jhernandez> and, to get accerciser working as soon as possible i think that is a good idea to priorize that
165 15:07:31 <jhernandez> API: ok, anyway, msanchez could ping to me if he want to take part of this priorization
166 15:08:22 <API> jhernandez ok
167 15:08:23 <API> so
168 15:08:25 <jhernandez> so, from my POV, I'm done with this topic, so, we can keep going
169 15:08:37 <API> I will try to summarize it
170 15:08:42 * clown thinks that API viewer is crucial for testing ARIA in FF4. So that matches.
171 15:08:57 <API> #info jhernandez is working on the pygtk migration
172 15:09:09 <API> #info right now it is somewhat blocked due the plugins
173 15:09:25 <API> #action need to prioritize the plugins
174 15:09:41 <API> #info some of them were already pointed on the meeting
175 15:09:45 <API> jhernandez, anything else?
176 15:10:11 <jhernandez> API: is ok for me
177 15:10:16 <jhernandez> thanks! ;)
178 15:10:58 <API> ok, so lets move
179 15:11:11 <API> #item GNOME 3.02
180 15:11:18 <API> joanie, I think that you added this point
181 15:11:37 <joanie> Yeah, I would like to know about what the plans are w.r.t. gnome shell
182 15:11:49 <joanie> I know, on the one hand, we're talking about 3.2
183 15:12:02 <API> I guess that you finger point at me
184 15:12:05 <joanie> but if one more Orca user tells me about all the panels and other issues my head my explode
185 15:12:09 <joanie> ;-)
186 15:12:09 <API> well, as this is my week holiday
187 15:12:11 <joanie> not at you
188 15:12:14 <joanie> as much as at Dan
189 15:12:18 <API> I have been doing some patches
190 15:12:23 <joanie> i.e. I think for some of the issues you have patches
191 15:12:26 <joanie> exactly
192 15:12:28 <API> hmm
193 15:12:29 <API> no
194 15:12:39 <joanie> (or solutions in your head?)
195 15:12:41 <API> all my patches on bugzilla were reviewed and applied
196 15:12:49 <joanie> ok
197 15:12:50 <API> except on cally, and ebassi
198 15:12:52 <joanie> my mistake
199 15:13:07 <API> already gave me green light to apply the ones that only affects cally
200 15:13:15 <joanie> but I still fear that, as we saw with this previous release
201 15:13:18 <API> now we need to talk again about the others
202 15:13:23 <API> but about gnome-shell and st
203 15:13:34 <joanie> that if you do patches they still won't be blessed in time
204 15:13:35 <API> next release will not have a lot of improvements
205 15:13:42 <API> yes, I fear so
206 15:13:53 <API> anyway it would be good some kind of coordination with dan
207 15:13:59 * joanie nods
208 15:14:02 <API> before those march patches
209 15:14:16 <API> although we didn't do that
210 15:14:18 <API> it was mostly
211 15:14:23 <API> Dan work on the keynav
212 15:14:30 <API> I work on the basic ATK objects
213 15:14:43 <API> owen were reviewing dan patches
214 15:14:50 <API> dan were reviewing mine
215 15:14:51 <API> soo
216 15:15:06 <API> as I said, as Im in holidays, today I was dooing some work
217 15:15:13 <API> in relation with the "wrong roles"
218 15:15:26 <API> but not sure if the plan of dan is just review my patches
219 15:15:34 <API> or if he is planning to work on other a11y tasks
220 15:15:36 <API> like the themes
221 15:15:51 <API> so, summarizing
222 15:16:15 <API> #info all atk-related patches on gnome-shell were applied
223 15:16:49 <API> #action API hopes to do something during his holidays, not sure what would happen after than
224 15:17:09 <API> #action API will contact dan to know if he is planning to work on other a11y tasks, like themes
225 15:17:29 <API> #info it is not planned any improvement on gnome-shell status for GNOME 3.0.2
226 15:17:33 <API> anything else?
227 15:18:21 <bnitz> jhernandez: pong (sorry I was in another meeting)
228 15:18:51 <jhernandez> ok, as we are at another topic, we can wait for miscellaneous time, makes sense?
229 15:19:00 <bnitz> ok
230 15:19:15 <jhernandez> bnitz: thanks!
231 15:19:58 <API> jhernandez, ups I have plans for miscellaneus time ;)
232 15:20:04 <API> but I will try to be short
233 15:20:13 <jhernandez> API: ok :]
234 15:20:17 <API> after all I will assume that this silence means that nobody needs to add anything
235 15:20:19 <API> so
236 15:20:24 <API> #item miscellaneous time
237 15:20:37 <API> I forgot to add that on the agenda
238 15:20:53 <API> last sunday was other release-team meeting
239 15:20:55 <API> so
240 15:21:09 <API> #info on the last release-team meeting we also talked about accessibility
241 15:21:25 <API> #info matthias clasen is still working on the gail-to-gtk port
242 15:21:54 <API> he asked if there is something like to test if an atk implementation fulfill atk
243 15:22:02 <API> ideally, without using
244 15:22:09 <API> all the accessibility stack
245 15:22:19 <API> (as I mentioned orca regression tests, and bnitz work)
246 15:22:41 <API> so it would be good to tinvestigate if there is any tool like that, and if not propose him to use what we have
247 15:22:54 <joanie> I *believe* that's what the Accerciser validator plugin strives to do
248 15:23:02 <joanie> though it might be incomplete
249 15:23:07 <API> #info for the moment they remove the Accessibility section from the features page
250 15:23:16 <API> joanie, ok
251 15:23:28 <API> but we should remove the "believe" from that statement ;)
252 15:23:32 <API> about the removal
253 15:23:54 <API> the idea is it would be really unlikely to solve all the problems related to accessibility towards 3.2
254 15:23:55 <API> so
255 15:24:07 <API> for the moment a11y team will coordinate the things to do on his wiki
256 15:24:18 <API> as it is mostly, "get the things working"
257 15:24:36 <API> and after that it can be back on the features page for the gnome releases
258 15:24:49 <API> after all that page is more in order to propose "features"
259 15:24:58 <API> what a surprise ;)
260 15:25:11 <API> ie: if we want to propose voice control
261 15:25:14 <API> this is a new feature
262 15:25:29 <API> so, questions, doubts?
263 15:25:43 <joanie> how about sarcastic comments
264 15:25:53 <bnitz> Can accessibility features be designed with testing in mind?
265 15:26:07 <joanie> I'm sorry, but after this 3.2 will be the release with the accessibility story
266 15:26:17 <joanie> I find it rather disappointing that the 'page' is being removed
267 15:27:45 <joanie> Anyway, I'm done with my rant
268 15:27:46 <joanie> moving ono
269 15:27:49 <joanie> on too
270 15:27:58 <API> bnitz, I don't understand your question?
271 15:28:10 <API> what do you mean?
272 15:28:29 <API> testing is not the main purpose of accessibility
273 15:28:42 <API> main purpose of accessibility is .... accessibility :
274 15:28:42 <bnitz> No I know that
275 15:29:02 <API> bnitz, so, what do you have in mind?
276 15:29:11 <bnitz> API I mean test centered design. Desiging accessibility features so we'll be able to validate that those features do work.
277 15:29:45 <bnitz> When trying to extend accercisers incomplete validation plugin I realized that many of the things we expect to work in accessibility _could_ be defined in a set of rules
278 15:29:50 <bnitz> but they aren't.
279 15:30:32 <bnitz> Don't confuse this with the fact that A11y happens to enable ldtp/dogtail... the goal is to improve accessibility by test centered design.
280 15:30:51 <API> bnitz, probably I lack a lot of information
281 15:30:51 <API> but
282 15:31:09 <API> how accesibility support would be improved by moving his design
283 15:31:14 <API> to a test centered design?
284 15:32:14 <bnitz> It would enable more complete and useful testing (included automated testing)
285 15:32:52 <bnitz> Just an idea, I'll try to explain it better in an email.
286 15:32:57 <clown> bnitz, would there be some basis for claiming that accessibility support is actually there? Isn't that the point?
287 15:32:58 <API> as I said, main purpose here is providing a proper accessibility support
288 15:33:11 <API> not a more complete testing
289 15:33:16 <API> so it would be the other way
290 15:33:16 <bnitz> clown: Yes.
291 15:33:29 <API> if a better testing (including automatic testing)
292 15:33:33 <API> improves accessibility
293 15:33:38 <API> yes, why not
294 15:33:56 <API> but again, how a testing centered design would allow to improve accessibility support?
295 15:34:04 <bnitz> A desktop accessibility vendor could say, "our desktop passes level 3 accessibility for user types x, y z..."
296 15:34:09 <bnitz> or not.
297 15:34:11 <clown> it should also catch regressions
298 15:34:19 <bnitz> clown: Yes.
299 15:34:26 <API> well bnitz
300 15:34:29 <API> as I said
301 15:34:36 <API> I'm lacking a lot of informatoin
302 15:34:38 <API> information
303 15:34:44 <API> and this point would be too long
304 15:34:51 <API> to discuss on miscellaneous time
305 15:34:58 <API> mainly because we are already over time
306 15:34:58 <bnitz> yes lets move on.
307 15:35:03 <API> so
308 15:35:12 <API> bnitz, could you try to write a summary of this?
309 15:35:20 <API> I mean, a mail like
310 15:35:31 <bnitz> API: Yes
311 15:35:35 <API> "accessibility improvement proposal: how testing centered would improve it"
312 15:35:38 <API> or something like that
313 15:35:43 <API> and send it to the ml
314 15:35:58 <API> although it would be good to have that information on the atk/at-spi2 hackfest
315 15:36:00 <bnitz> ok
316 15:36:14 <API> after all, I was the place were we all were there and discussed about improvements
317 15:36:17 <API> so bnitz
318 15:36:19 <API> thanks
319 15:36:26 <API> we will wait for that
320 15:36:31 <API> and for minutes sake
321 15:36:54 <aleiva> only as information orca team are having a week of their personal "sevilla orca summit", we'll write about soon
322 15:36:55 <API> #idea bnitz proposed that a testing centered design would help on the accessibility framework
323 15:37:14 <API> #info people lack a lot of background
324 15:37:27 <API> #action bnitz will send a mail summarizing his proposal
325 15:37:52 <API> #info joanie and aleiva are working on Seville in a kind of orca summit
326 15:37:59 <aleiva> and jhernandez ;-)
327 15:38:10 <API> #info and jhernandez
328 15:38:24 <API> #action aleiva will send a mail after it
329 15:38:26 <API> soo
330 15:38:32 <API> almost 10 minutes over time
331 15:38:34 <clown> API, three short items.
332 15:38:40 <API> I think that we can conclude the meeting
333 15:38:44 <clown> I will be on vacation for the next week.
334 15:38:46 * bnitz is sorry if I took time away from jhernandez discussion of his porting issues.
335 15:38:50 <API> bnitz and jhernandez can talk on #a11y about the plugins things
336 15:38:50 <clown> #info I Uploaded new patch for zoom options control panel.
337 15:39:02 <bnitz> ok
338 15:39:11 <clown> Any news on a11y testing distro? (Although that can be discussed in #a11y).
339 15:39:22 <jhernandez> bnitz: no problem ,we can talk on #a11y
340 15:39:25 <jhernandez> clown: the same
341 15:39:28 <jhernandez> :]
342 15:39:35 <clown> okay, jhernandez
343 15:39:43 <clown> :-)
344 15:39:59 <aleiva> thanks guys
345 15:40:00 <API> clown, did you finish?
346 15:40:07 <API> you said three things
347 15:40:08 <clown> yes, API. thanks.
348 15:40:11 <API> ok
349 15:40:16 <API> so meeting is over!!
350 15:40:20 <API> #endofmeeting
351 15:40:28 <clown> bye all.
352 15:40:29 <API> yups
353 15:40:34 <API> #endmeeting
Attached Files
To refer to attachments on a page, use attachment:filename, as shown below in the list of files. Do NOT use the URL of the [get] link, since this is subject to change and can break easily.You are not allowed to attach a file to this page.