14:35:05 <API> #startmeeting
14:35:05 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu May 19 14:35:05 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:35:05 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:35:24 <API> #topic ATK Hackfest Summary
14:35:37 <API> well, I will start myself
14:35:37 <fbotelho> thanks! will experiment quietly now.
14:35:48 <API> fbotelho, you are welcome
14:35:56 <API> we usually have also "miscellaneous" time at the end
14:36:07 <API> just in case someone wants to comment something out of the agenda
14:36:19 <API> and in the same way, anyone can edit the agenda
14:36:28 <API> anyway, about first topic
14:36:31 <API> the hackfest
14:36:46 <API> some brief conclusions from my side:
14:37:02 <API> as I said on my post it was more discussion and analysis oriented
14:37:23 <API> that real hacking oriented, although I guess that people also did some of that
14:37:38 <API> was also good to have people out of the "atk world"
14:37:52 <API> like fregl in order to have other point of views of the same problem
14:38:05 <API> and we discussed a lot of things
14:38:11 <API> and detected a lot of tasks
14:38:14 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011/Agenda
14:38:28 <API> now the problem is being able to solve/implement all those issues
14:38:36 <API> and this is a brief summary from my side
14:38:56 <API> so, any other pov to this summary?
14:39:06 <joanie> Not of the summary
14:39:13 * API don't want the only one talking about the hackfest ...
14:39:16 <joanie> but as you said, the next steps need to be discussed
14:39:29 <joanie> we have a huge list of to-dos resulting from the hackfest
14:39:33 <joanie> and need doers
14:39:43 <joanie> and to figure out what cannot be done by us in a reasonable time
14:40:00 <joanie> so that we can seek additional resources be they funding or people
14:40:05 <aleiva> from my point of view this hackfests should be each 6 months to redefine goals
14:40:37 <API> aleiva, and also to get some work done ;)
14:40:40 <aleiva> is a great way to make little sprints towards common goals, so make sense IMHO
14:40:45 <aleiva> API: sure
14:40:58 <API> as I said we didn't do too much developing work on the hackfest
14:41:01 <aleiva> API: one of planning one of real hack
14:41:22 <aleiva> maybe help to get forward
14:41:38 <API> aleiva, well, as we did a lot of planning, next ones could be just a little planning
14:41:40 <API> an update
14:41:47 <API> and then develop
14:41:48 <API> but
14:41:50 <API> anyway
14:41:56 <API> we can't assume
14:42:03 <API> that all the work will be done on hackfests
14:42:10 <API> there are a lot of things to do
14:42:22 <aleiva> no, that's not what I want to said, but it is a good checkpoint
14:42:23 <API> and hackfests are just one-week, one-weekend of work
14:42:37 <API> aleiva, yes, sure, just saying that explicitly
14:42:45 <aleiva> API: ok, perfect
14:43:39 <joanie> so about this most recent hackfest....
14:43:49 <joanie> We should plan the 'next steps'
14:43:53 <joanie> (I think)
14:44:31 <API> joanie, yes it makes sense
14:44:38 <aleiva> joanie: well I think that as you said we need to assign work to people and define dates
14:44:39 <API> on the hackfest we defined a lot of tasks
14:44:45 <API> but we need to classify them as
14:44:47 <API> short-term
14:44:50 <API> medium-term
14:44:53 <API> long-term
14:45:07 <aleiva> +1
14:45:16 <aleiva> so, action
14:45:19 <clown> +1 and "prioritize"
14:45:21 <mgorse> If it breaks API then it's long-term, I presume
14:45:23 <API> aleiva, and there is problem on the assign work thing
14:45:34 <API> at this moment, until other notice
14:45:37 * joanie smiles at mgorse
14:45:49 <API> this work is done by volunteers
14:45:54 <API> so we can't assign it
14:46:13 <API> people is the one that need to volunteer to do any specific tasks
14:46:19 <aleiva> well, maybe I use the wrong verb, I mean motivate people to choose and do taks
14:47:45 <aleiva> tota11y: action help
14:47:46 <tota11y> aleiva: Error: "action" is not a valid command.
14:47:47 <API> ok, so lets try to summarize this
14:47:58 <API> in a coherent way
14:48:25 <API> #info atk/at-spi2 hackfest were really productive
14:48:38 <API> #info but more about defining tasks that develop
14:49:03 <API> #action classify those tasks in short-medium-long term and prioritize
14:49:27 <API> #idea that also include other a11y tasks like the gail-to-gtk move
14:49:48 * joanie wonders whose action item that is
14:49:50 <API> anything else?
14:49:58 <API> joanie, what?
14:50:19 <joanie> action items without assignees (excuse me, volunteers) typically go undone
14:50:35 <API> ...
14:50:35 <API> yes
14:50:48 <aleiva> joanie: wake up
14:51:10 * aleiva thinks joanie is going to die...
14:51:18 <clown> API, joanie is pointing out that you created and action without a name
14:51:26 <clown> "an action"
14:51:29 <API> yes I know
14:51:31 <API> just thinking
14:51:35 <clown> ah, okay.
14:51:37 <aleiva> volunteer way :-P
14:51:40 <API> well, joanie
14:51:53 <joanie> API sorry asthma attack
14:51:54 <API> lets add you and me as volunteers on that task,
14:51:56 <API> ok?
14:51:58 <API> ah
14:51:59 <API> sorry
14:52:00 <joanie> yup
14:52:04 <joanie> no worries
14:52:11 <API> ok
14:52:11 <joanie> but that's why I stopped typing
14:52:15 <API> and talking about action items
14:52:20 <joanie> I agree we can do the AI
14:52:26 <API> we also need to review the current action items at the agenda
14:52:37 <API> ATK Hackfest participants should update the wiki page.
14:52:41 <API> is somewhat old ;)
14:52:43 <API> anyway
14:52:52 <API> anything else on the atk/at-spi hackfest point?
14:52:59 <API> anyother comment, proposal, question?
14:53:25 <joanie> not from me
14:54:24 <API> ok, so lets move to next point
14:54:42 <API> #item Accerciser GNOME 3 modifications
14:54:52 <API> I guess that this is jhernandez and bnitz point
14:54:54 <API> so ...
14:55:00 <API> any recent new about this?
14:55:08 <jhernandez> yes
14:55:57 <jhernandez> I'm still porting, from pygtk2 to pygi-gtk3
14:56:26 <fer> is that a pain in the ass? (I have to port dots)
14:56:41 <API> there is anything blocking it? or it is just a lot of work to do?
14:56:52 <jhernandez> anyway, I'll need some feedback ant take some decissions, because the many problems I'm having is by porting some plugins
14:57:04 <jhernandez> API: both of them
14:57:46 <API> jhernandez, could you elaborate that "plugin problem"?
14:57:47 <jhernandez> what i was going to do is to make an quick-easy poll
14:58:13 <jhernandez> API: many gtk.gdk imports
14:58:18 <jhernandez> is an example
14:58:24 <jhernandez> anyway, my poll was about
14:59:02 <jhernandez> are all plugins necessary to be ported yet? or someone could wait for the migration?
14:59:25 <jhernandez> i mean, I know that usually, a11y developers don't use all of these plugins
14:59:36 <jhernandez> sooo
14:59:40 <joanie> yeah, jhernandez I don't think we're using the validator
14:59:54 <joanie> and API browser is handy but redundant
14:59:58 <joanie> in that we have docs
14:59:59 <joanie> ;-)
15:00:02 <jhernandez> if anyone could point to me what features are more critical
15:00:33 <API> jhernandez, well, so you want to port in the same group accerciser and
15:00:34 <API> hmm
15:00:37 <API> "the core" plugins
15:00:54 <API> but you are not sure what plugins are the most important
15:00:55 <API> right?
15:01:03 <jhernandez> yes, but plugins are in accerciser's code
15:01:19 <jhernandez> that's my question, yes
15:01:35 <jhernandez> for example, what component do you usually use from accerciser?
15:01:45 <joanie> I think the important ones are interface viewer and event monitor
15:01:50 <API> plugins are in accerciser code?
15:01:52 <joanie> those are the two I use the most anyway
15:02:02 <API> ok I thought that they were third-party plugins
15:02:09 <jhernandez> maybe, I can improve this accerciser's port by parking some old-code
15:02:40 <jhernandez> makes sense?
15:02:41 <fer> I mostly use Interface viewer and console
15:02:49 <clown> From the point of view of testing ARIA implementation in FF4, what plug-ins might be needed?
15:03:04 <joanie> doh yes to ipython console
15:03:23 <fer> probably also event monitor is widely used, but I use my own custom python script to grab events and dump to a text file
15:03:36 <jhernandez> ok
15:04:19 <jhernandez> bnitz: ping
15:04:21 <fer> I would say that script recorder, API browser and validator are low priority
15:04:21 <jhernandez> around?
15:05:12 <jhernandez> fer: that's what i thought ... thanks!
15:05:25 <API> jhernandez, so in the end you need a poll, or it would be enough from the responses of the people?
15:05:39 <jhernandez> for me it's ok
15:06:01 <jhernandez> I assume that there are high and low priorities
15:06:04 * API poking msanchez, as he is also an hard accerciser  user
15:06:27 * API it is easier when we both are at the office
15:06:49 <jhernandez> and, to get accerciser working as soon as possible i think that is a good idea to priorize that
15:07:31 <jhernandez> API: ok, anyway, msanchez could ping to me if he want to take part of this priorization
15:08:22 <API> jhernandez ok
15:08:23 <API> so
15:08:25 <jhernandez> so, from my POV, I'm done with this topic, so, we can keep going
15:08:37 <API> I will try to summarize it
15:08:42 * clown thinks that API viewer is crucial for testing ARIA in FF4.  So that matches.
15:08:57 <API> #info jhernandez is working on the pygtk migration
15:09:09 <API> #info right now it is somewhat blocked due the plugins
15:09:25 <API> #action need to prioritize the plugins
15:09:41 <API> #info some of them were already pointed on the meeting
15:09:45 <API> jhernandez, anything else?
15:10:11 <jhernandez> API: is ok for me
15:10:16 <jhernandez> thanks! ;)
15:10:58 <API> ok, so lets move
15:11:11 <API> #item GNOME 3.02
15:11:18 <API> joanie, I think that you added this point
15:11:37 <joanie> Yeah, I would like to know about what the plans are w.r.t. gnome shell
15:11:49 <joanie> I know, on the one hand, we're talking about 3.2
15:12:02 <API> I guess that you finger point at me
15:12:05 <joanie> but if one more Orca user tells me about all the panels and other issues my head my explode
15:12:09 <joanie> ;-)
15:12:09 <API> well, as this is my week holiday
15:12:11 <joanie> not at you
15:12:14 <joanie> as much as at Dan
15:12:18 <API> I have been doing some patches
15:12:23 <joanie> i.e. I think for some of the issues you have patches
15:12:26 <joanie> exactly
15:12:28 <API> hmm
15:12:29 <API> no
15:12:39 <joanie> (or solutions in your head?)
15:12:41 <API> all my patches on bugzilla were reviewed and applied
15:12:49 <joanie> ok
15:12:50 <API> except on cally, and ebassi
15:12:52 <joanie> my mistake
15:13:07 <API> already gave me green light to apply the ones that only affects cally
15:13:15 <joanie> but I still fear that, as we saw with this previous release
15:13:18 <API> now we need to talk again about the others
15:13:23 <API> but about gnome-shell and st
15:13:34 <joanie> that if you do patches they still won't be blessed in time
15:13:35 <API> next release will not have a lot of improvements
15:13:42 <API> yes, I fear so
15:13:53 <API> anyway it would be good some kind of coordination with dan
15:13:59 * joanie nods
15:14:02 <API> before those march patches
15:14:16 <API> although we didn't do that
15:14:18 <API> it was mostly
15:14:23 <API> Dan work on the keynav
15:14:30 <API> I work on the basic ATK objects
15:14:43 <API> owen were reviewing dan patches
15:14:50 <API> dan were reviewing mine
15:14:51 <API> soo
15:15:06 <API> as I said, as Im in holidays, today I was dooing some work
15:15:13 <API> in relation with the "wrong roles"
15:15:26 <API> but not sure if the plan of dan is just review my patches
15:15:34 <API> or if he is planning to work on other a11y tasks
15:15:36 <API> like the themes
15:15:51 <API> so, summarizing
15:16:15 <API> #info all atk-related patches on gnome-shell were applied
15:16:49 <API> #action API hopes to do something during his holidays, not sure what would happen after than
15:17:09 <API> #action API will contact dan to know if he is planning to work on other a11y tasks, like themes
15:17:29 <API> #info it is not planned any improvement on gnome-shell status for GNOME 3.0.2
15:17:33 <API> anything else?
15:18:21 <bnitz> jhernandez: pong (sorry I was in another meeting)
15:18:51 <jhernandez> ok, as we are at another topic, we can wait for miscellaneous time, makes sense?
15:19:00 <bnitz> ok
15:19:15 <jhernandez> bnitz: thanks!
15:19:58 <API> jhernandez, ups I have plans for miscellaneus time ;)
15:20:04 <API> but I will try to be short
15:20:13 <jhernandez> API: ok :]
15:20:17 <API> after all I will assume that this silence means that nobody needs to add anything
15:20:19 <API> so
15:20:24 <API> #item miscellaneous time
15:20:37 <API> I forgot to add that on the agenda
15:20:53 <API> last sunday was other release-team meeting
15:20:55 <API> so
15:21:09 <API> #info on the last release-team meeting we also talked about accessibility
15:21:25 <API> #info matthias clasen is still working on the gail-to-gtk port
15:21:54 <API> he asked if there is something like to test if an atk implementation fulfill atk
15:22:02 <API> ideally, without using
15:22:09 <API> all the accessibility stack
15:22:19 <API> (as I mentioned orca regression tests, and bnitz work)
15:22:41 <API> so it would be good to tinvestigate if there is any tool like that, and if not propose him to use what we have
15:22:54 <joanie> I *believe* that's what the Accerciser validator plugin strives to do
15:23:02 <joanie> though it might be incomplete
15:23:07 <API> #info for the moment they remove the Accessibility section from the features page
15:23:16 <API> joanie, ok
15:23:28 <API> but we should remove the "believe" from that statement ;)
15:23:32 <API> about the removal
15:23:54 <API> the idea is it would be really unlikely to solve all the problems related to accessibility towards 3.2
15:23:55 <API> so
15:24:07 <API> for the moment a11y team will coordinate the things to do on his wiki
15:24:18 <API> as it is mostly, "get the things working"
15:24:36 <API> and after that it can be back on the features page for the gnome releases
15:24:49 <API> after all that page is more in order to propose "features"
15:24:58 <API> what a surprise ;)
15:25:11 <API> ie: if we want to propose voice control
15:25:14 <API> this is a new feature
15:25:29 <API> so, questions, doubts?
15:25:43 <joanie> how about sarcastic comments
15:25:53 <bnitz> Can accessibility features be designed with testing in mind?
15:26:07 <joanie> I'm sorry, but after this 3.2 will be the release with the accessibility story
15:26:17 <joanie> I find it rather disappointing that the 'page' is being removed
15:27:45 <joanie> Anyway, I'm done with my rant
15:27:46 <joanie> moving ono
15:27:49 <joanie> on too
15:27:58 <API> bnitz, I don't understand your question?
15:28:10 <API> what do you mean?
15:28:29 <API> testing is not the main purpose of accessibility
15:28:42 <API> main purpose of accessibility is .... accessibility :
15:28:42 <bnitz> No I know that
15:29:02 <API> bnitz, so, what do you have in mind?
15:29:11 <bnitz> API I mean test centered design.  Desiging accessibility features so we'll be able to validate that those features do work.
15:29:45 <bnitz> When trying to extend accercisers incomplete validation plugin I realized that many of the things we expect to work in accessibility _could_ be defined in a set of rules
15:29:50 <bnitz> but they aren't.
15:30:32 <bnitz> Don't confuse this with the fact that A11y happens to enable ldtp/dogtail...   the goal is to improve accessibility by test centered design.
15:30:51 <API> bnitz, probably I lack a lot of information
15:30:51 <API> but
15:31:09 <API> how accesibility support would be improved by moving his design
15:31:14 <API> to a test centered design?
15:32:14 <bnitz> It would enable more complete and useful testing (included automated testing)
15:32:52 <bnitz> Just an idea, I'll try to explain it better in an email.
15:32:57 <clown> bnitz, would there be some basis for claiming that accessibility support is actually there?  Isn't that the point?
15:32:58 <API> as I said, main purpose here is providing a proper accessibility support
15:33:11 <API> not a more complete testing
15:33:16 <API> so it would be the other way
15:33:16 <bnitz> clown: Yes.
15:33:29 <API> if a better testing (including automatic testing)
15:33:33 <API> improves accessibility
15:33:38 <API> yes, why not
15:33:56 <API> but again, how a testing centered design would allow to improve accessibility support?
15:34:04 <bnitz> A desktop accessibility vendor could say, "our desktop passes level 3 accessibility for user types x, y z..."
15:34:09 <bnitz> or not.
15:34:11 <clown> it should also catch regressions
15:34:19 <bnitz> clown: Yes.
15:34:26 <API> well bnitz
15:34:29 <API> as I said
15:34:36 <API> I'm lacking a lot of informatoin
15:34:38 <API> information
15:34:44 <API> and this point would be too long
15:34:51 <API> to discuss on miscellaneous time
15:34:58 <API> mainly because we are already over time
15:34:58 <bnitz> yes lets move on.
15:35:03 <API> so
15:35:12 <API> bnitz, could you try to write a summary of this?
15:35:20 <API> I mean, a mail like
15:35:31 <bnitz> API: Yes
15:35:35 <API> "accessibility improvement proposal: how testing centered would improve it"
15:35:38 <API> or something like that
15:35:43 <API> and send it to the ml
15:35:58 <API> although it would be good to have that information on the atk/at-spi2 hackfest
15:36:00 <bnitz> ok
15:36:14 <API> after all, I was the place were we all were there and discussed about improvements
15:36:17 <API> so bnitz
15:36:19 <API> thanks
15:36:26 <API> we will wait for that
15:36:31 <API> and for minutes sake
15:36:54 <aleiva> only as information orca team are having a week of their personal "sevilla orca summit", we'll write about soon
15:36:55 <API> #idea bnitz proposed that a testing centered design would help on the accessibility framework
15:37:14 <API> #info people lack a lot of background
15:37:27 <API> #action bnitz will send a mail summarizing his proposal
15:37:52 <API> #info joanie and aleiva are working on Seville in a kind of orca summit
15:37:59 <aleiva> and jhernandez ;-)
15:38:10 <API> #info and jhernandez
15:38:24 <API> #action aleiva will send a mail after it
15:38:26 <API> soo
15:38:32 <API> almost 10 minutes over time
15:38:34 <clown> API, three short items.
15:38:40 <API> I think that we can conclude the meeting
15:38:44 <clown> I will be on vacation for the next week.
15:38:46 * bnitz is sorry if I took time away from jhernandez discussion of his porting issues.
15:38:50 <API> bnitz and jhernandez can talk on #a11y about the plugins things
15:38:50 <clown> #info I Uploaded new patch for zoom options control panel.
15:39:02 <bnitz> ok
15:39:11 <clown> Any news on a11y testing distro? (Although that can be discussed in #a11y).
15:39:22 <jhernandez> bnitz: no problem ,we can talk on #a11y
15:39:25 <jhernandez> clown: the same
15:39:28 <jhernandez> :]
15:39:35 <clown> okay, jhernandez
15:39:43 <clown> :-)
15:39:59 <aleiva> thanks guys
15:40:00 <API> clown, did you finish?
15:40:07 <API> you said three things
15:40:08 <clown> yes, API.  thanks.
15:40:11 <API> ok
15:40:16 <API> so meeting is over!!
15:40:20 <API> #endofmeeting
15:40:28 <clown> bye all.
15:40:29 <API> yups
15:40:34 <API> #endmeeting