14:34:22 <API> #startmeeting
14:34:22 <tota11y> Meeting started Thu May  5 14:34:22 2011 UTC.  The chair is API. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:34:22 <tota11y> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:34:29 <API> #topic
14:34:31 <API> ups
14:34:40 <API> #topic ATK Hackfest (9-13 May)
14:34:55 <API> it will start next monday!!
14:35:00 <API> well, now seriously
14:35:14 <API> it is still pending the agenda
14:35:17 <API> mostly my fault
14:35:46 <joanie> will you have time today or tomorrow to work on it?
14:35:47 <API> but I will try to coordinate myself with joanie
14:35:59 <joanie> I'll be around until tomorrow evening (Spanish time)
14:36:03 <API> today unlikely, probably just enough time to review your email
14:36:16 <API> but anyway
14:36:22 <joanie> i'll get up early (also Spanish time) tomorrow
14:36:32 <API> people, you are still in time to review the bugs
14:36:35 <API> and add proposals
14:36:40 <API> also create some bugs
14:36:48 <API> I still have in mind one or too
14:37:02 <mgorse> Oh, right--I do, too. Thanks for the reminder
14:37:02 <API> ie: msanchez as you are these days working on "multi-process" issues
14:37:22 <API> if something new arise in your head, you are still in time to create bugs
14:37:34 <API> so, once said so
14:37:41 <API> any question?
14:37:56 <API> all people has flight, room, knows where Igalia office is and so on?
14:38:04 <fer> preferred day for the hackers dinner?
14:38:10 <fer> Thu?
14:38:41 <joanie> Uhhh when is Ale leaving?
14:38:53 <fer> oh, true
14:39:13 <fer> on Thu, so... Wednesday?
14:39:16 <joanie> API did we move the Open Day?
14:39:20 <API> joanie, yes
14:39:24 <joanie> to Wed?
14:39:31 <API> Open Day will be on Wed
14:39:32 <API> yes
14:39:37 <joanie> So fer... Tuesday?
14:39:39 <joanie> :-)
14:39:39 <API> we could do that day ...
14:39:48 <joanie> or late dinner Wed?
14:39:52 <API> it is planned to start at 18:00 or something like that
14:40:01 <fer> whatever you prefer
14:40:05 <API> well in fact more like 18:30
14:40:26 <API> but too risky
14:40:31 <API> for the moment lets say Tuesday
14:40:35 <fer> oki
14:40:36 <joanie> +1
14:40:39 <joanie> thanks fer!
14:40:51 <API> anyway, I guess that this is a nitpick, not sure if suits the a11y meeting
14:41:08 <API> we can talk about it on the hackfest itself
14:41:11 <API> so
14:41:40 <API> anything else about the hackfest?
14:41:58 <joanie> are you going to meetbot a summary?
14:42:16 <API> yes
14:42:25 <API> as nobody said anything
14:42:34 <API> #action API, joanie will finish the agenda
14:42:52 <API> #action people will try to review bugzilla, to add comments and add new ones
14:43:07 <API> #idea dinner hackfest the tuesday
14:43:26 <API> #topic Our 3.2 Pages
14:43:40 <API> joanie, I guess that you added this topic
14:43:47 <joanie> yeah
14:43:59 <joanie> I was thinking about two issues (as listed)
14:44:12 <joanie> The first being that we just need to stay on top of these things
14:44:13 <joanie> so....
14:44:21 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo/Issues
14:44:35 <joanie> Glancing at it and what I am "responsible" for:
14:44:54 <joanie> 1. I tested fallback mode and am not seeing any issues associated with libgail-gnome removal
14:44:58 <joanie> (so I'll remove that item)
14:45:09 <joanie> 2. Orca doesn't meet design team expectations
14:45:25 <joanie> I'll be at Emergya the almost two weeks after the hackfest
14:45:33 <joanie> and should have an update (if not a design in hand)
14:45:42 <API> a question about this
14:45:52 <API> you are planning something like Eitan is doing with Caribou, right?
14:45:58 <API> something like having a core
14:46:11 <API> and then allow a way to have different uis?
14:46:17 <joanie> Well, that's part of the work we're doing, yes.
14:46:17 <API> or at leat the configuration UI
14:46:46 <joanie> In addition, I've asked Ale to get the Emergya design people to give us at least mock-ups of a non-offensive UI alternative
14:46:47 <API> ok, so it is not "lets modify current orca ui in order to fit design idea of an UI", right?
14:46:49 <joanie> :-)
14:46:53 <joanie> it's that too
14:47:05 <API> so you
14:47:13 <API> were you == joanie + Emergya design guys
14:47:29 <API> plan to contact Jon
14:47:32 <API> ?
14:47:44 <joanie> Or the bigger design team ;-)
14:47:52 <joanie> Once we have a proposal
14:48:06 <API> after the proposal?
14:48:10 <joanie> I'd even call it a compromise
14:48:19 <API> so you already know, more or less, what design team want?
14:48:22 <joanie> after the proposal... what?
14:48:34 <joanie> What the design team wants is for Orca to not have a UI
14:48:36 <API> I mean that you plan to contact GNOME design team after having a proposal
14:48:39 <joanie> Orca will have a UI
14:48:40 <API> I thought that your plan was:
14:49:02 <API> 1. contact design team: hey, this is our current UI, how we can modify it to fit gnome3?
14:49:07 <API> 2. work on a proposal
14:49:15 <joanie> not quite
14:49:20 <API> 3. contact design team: hey, we have this, what do you think?
14:49:30 <joanie> I asked the design team for feedback/help/tips last cycle
14:49:34 <API> joanie, not having UI at all?
14:49:36 <joanie> we got....
14:49:38 <joanie> nothing
14:50:00 <joanie> Jon has suggested that Orca should not have a UI, that people "should never see Orca"
14:50:08 <joanie> and I'm sorry, but that ain't gonna work
14:50:23 <joanie> The good news is that with the separation out of the mag stuff
14:50:25 <API> joanie, well, IMHO thats just stupd
14:50:26 <API> stupid
14:50:30 <joanie> what is?
14:50:35 <joanie> My attitude or theirs?
14:50:36 <joanie> :-)
14:50:48 <API> "Orca should not have an UI at all" ==> stupid sentence
14:50:50 * joanie waves to her teammate
14:51:02 <joanie> Agreed API
14:51:09 <API> of course, thats just my humble opinion
14:51:10 <joanie> But it is what it is. And I am not making this up
14:51:13 <joanie> ;-)
14:51:17 <joanie> Soooo...
14:51:19 <API> it seems that I misundestood you
14:51:21 <joanie> We're deep diving
14:51:27 <API> I thought that they wanted to simplify it
14:51:28 <joanie> But to summarize
14:51:58 <andre_> Jon is not the world... don't let stop energy drain your power :)
14:52:08 <joanie> The design team wants the only elements for configuring Orca to be part of their (extremely simple/streamlined) UAP
14:52:19 <joanie> They did not give feedback when requested
14:52:21 <joanie> Therefore
14:52:21 <mgorse> Well, if you're blind, you'll never see Orca anyway, whether it has a UI or not, so we already meet their requirements as long as the user is blind
14:52:31 <clown> :-)
14:52:45 <joanie> We will do our very best through Emergya Design expertise to propose an alternative
14:53:03 <joanie> which will hopefully be an acceptible (and easily tweakable by Jon, etc.) solution
14:53:11 <joanie> make sense now API?
14:53:21 <joanie> andre_: Thanks.
14:53:42 <API> joanie, ok
14:53:56 <joanie> so other "issue" reports perhaps?
14:53:57 <API> so as you already said, lets summarize this point
14:54:02 * joanie yields floor
14:54:12 <API> sorry, I messified this point
14:54:32 * joanie would love to know how clown is progressing on his 3.2 issues
14:54:45 <clown> joanie, throw money...
14:54:59 * joanie tosses $20s at clown
14:55:16 <clown> okay, since it's related to Orca UI, I'll talk about the Zoom Options control panel issue.
14:55:36 <clown> From the issue: GNOME Shell Magnifier does not have a Universal Access dialog for configuring zoom options.
14:56:00 <clown> I've suggested a UI and working code, see  *looks up bug*
14:56:12 <clown> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=643086
14:56:12 <tota11y> 04Bug 643086: normal, Normal, ---, control-center-maint, UNCONFIRMED, Universal access:  add dialog for zoom options
14:56:37 <clown> the overall result was:  "it's too complicated, simplify it"  Sound familiar?
14:56:45 <joanie> :-)
14:56:55 <clown> I responded with some disgreements, and some agreements.
14:57:08 <clown> And, am currently working on changing it where we agree.
14:57:15 <API> clown, well, the good new is that it was reviewed
14:57:24 <aleiva> :)
14:57:30 <clown> If you want to see a picture of what I proposed, look here:
14:57:36 <clown> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Magnification#Universal_Access_Panel_Zoom_Options
14:57:47 * joanie looks
14:57:49 <clown> sorry that that is just a picture.
14:58:04 <clown> as in, "no alt text".
14:58:31 <API> clown, this is the dialogs that they reviewed or an updated version?
14:58:37 <clown> the best line of criticism was:  "Most of the options are entirely non-understandable"
14:59:00 <clown> these are the ones they reviewed, and said were "entirely non-understandable"
14:59:01 <API> clown, well, tooltips are for that ....
14:59:20 <API> and documentation
14:59:22 <clown> API, good point.  But, that wasn't one of their suggestions
14:59:32 <joanie> We can also probably come up with alternative language
14:59:43 <API> clown, you can try to add to the dialog some documentation
15:00:07 <API> so if they feel that are not understandable, it is a matter of point the documentation
15:00:15 <API> anyway,we are entering on nitpicks
15:00:23 <joanie> API you've not done battle with them like we have ;-)
15:00:39 <clown> API:  my impression is that documentation won't satisfy them (but that's just my opinion).
15:00:42 <joanie> I propose that those interested (later, elsewhere) brainstorm on the language
15:00:45 <joanie> +1 clown
15:01:00 <clown> another odd thing:
15:01:32 <clown> I based the mouse tracking language on the OS X's similar dialog.  I didn't copy it, and tried to make it more understandable...
15:01:38 <clown> they said...
15:01:53 <clown> The 'content scrolling' radio group is very hard to understand; I don't have
15:01:53 <clown> an immediate proposal, but this should be reworded in some easier to understand
15:01:53 <clown> way
15:02:12 <joanie> :-)
15:02:23 <clown> <irony>I guess the designers at Apple don't know what they are doing</irony>
15:02:25 <joanie> Let's see if we can tweak the language.
15:02:35 <clown> Sure, that was my reply to that one.
15:02:52 <clown> that I would work on making it more understandable.
15:03:00 <API> ;)
15:03:02 <clown> But back to the main point.
15:03:07 <joanie> In general, I think we should do our best team-wide to meet their team half-way
15:03:26 <clown> I have been trying to find time to make improvements, but I've been caught up in the AEGIS user testing issue, and that's taken almost all of my time.
15:03:28 * joanie coughs under her breath: And minimize interaction
15:03:59 <clown> Hopefully I can get back to this next week.
15:04:06 <API> well, I think that we need to try to conclude this point
15:04:13 <clown> Sure.
15:04:13 <API> joanie, clown could you summarize it
15:04:16 <API> for minutes sake?
15:04:22 <joanie> uhhhh
15:04:24 <joanie> :-)
15:04:42 <joanie> (and we're not done)
15:04:59 <clown> but, we could summarize this one issue, no?
15:04:59 <joanie> #info The team began reviewing the information on the 3.2 issues page
15:05:17 <API> clown, yes please, summarize this point before going on
15:05:20 <joanie> #info Joanie reported that libgail-gnome issue is a non-issue
15:05:45 <clown> are you done, joanie?
15:05:48 <joanie> #info Joanie reported that the Orca team will be addressing the UI acceptibility issue in Sevilla after the hackfest, creating a proposal
15:05:53 * clown waits
15:06:07 <joanie> #action Joanie will remove the libgail-gnome item from the issues page
15:06:14 * joanie proposes clown summarize his
15:06:53 <clown> #info clown reported that he has received feedback on his Zoom Option control panel.
15:07:12 <clown> #info he will attempt to answer the criticisms with a new version
15:07:30 <clown> #info API suggested adding tooltips and documentation to make the dialog options clearer
15:07:47 <clown> #info Joanie suggested helping with tweaking the language (she and others will help)
15:08:04 <clown> #action clown will work on the next version in the coming week.
15:08:05 <API> ok, so I guess that now joanie can continue with the point
15:08:25 <joanie> Well, the next point is largely to turn it back to you API ;-)
15:08:27 <joanie> the question is:
15:08:39 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features/Accessibility
15:08:56 <joanie> With respect to the above page, it was my understanding that we were supposed to plan on our pages
15:09:02 <joanie> BUT then add stuff to theirs?
15:09:10 <API> hmm, well
15:09:15 <API> most of the things on that page
15:09:21 <API> were already included on our issues page
15:09:33 <API> my idea was basically revamp that page
15:09:37 <API> and point to our pages
15:09:47 <API> afaik, it is only missing the gail to gtk migration
15:09:53 <API> that benjamin otte point
15:10:00 <joanie> ugh I thought I added that
15:10:04 <joanie> if not I suck
15:10:08 <API> if fact it was already included
15:10:15 <joanie> I don't suck?
15:10:20 <API> yes
15:10:30 <joanie> Yes I do or yes I don't?
15:10:32 * joanie shuts up now
15:10:37 <API> in fact we can maintain some information about the owner and so on
15:10:58 <API> but say, for detailed information check accessibility team pages
15:11:05 <API> that answer your question?
15:11:12 <joanie> Almost
15:11:13 <joanie> :-)
15:11:14 <API> and after all, just after atk hackfest
15:11:20 <API> sunday 15
15:11:28 <API> there is a release team meeting
15:11:33 <joanie> My question more specifically is:
15:11:43 <API> so that change should be done by that time, as it was my homework ;)
15:11:53 <joanie> Did we tell .... devel list, RT, whatever....
15:11:55 <joanie> gotcha
15:12:01 <joanie> OK, that answers it:
15:12:11 <joanie> You will do whatever it is we (the team) is expected to do
15:12:13 <joanie> right?
15:12:20 <API> yes,
15:12:27 <joanie> super. Thanks!!
15:12:29 <API> so for minutes sake
15:12:44 <API> #action a11y team will finish his page
15:13:02 <API> #action API will update accessibility features page
15:13:15 <API> #action API will talk about it on next release-team meeting
15:13:19 <API> anything else?
15:13:28 <joanie> not from me. Thank you.
15:13:28 <clown> API, what does "his page" mean?
15:13:43 <clown> as in "a11y team will finish his page"
15:13:45 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/ThreePointTwo
15:14:01 <API> although I have just realized that this was an action of the previous point
15:14:36 <joanie> Well, there's a related point/action
15:14:41 <joanie> because there are other issues not on this page
15:14:54 <joanie> for which bugs should be filed and the RT updated on (possibly)
15:15:33 <joanie> anyhoo.... I'm set on this point
15:15:54 <API> joanie, so, we can move to next point?
15:16:10 <joanie> It's either that or stay in some sort of meeting purgatory
15:16:12 <joanie> :-P
15:16:37 <API> #topic Testing Distro update?
15:16:47 <API> hmm javier is not here
15:16:57 <API> my first question was something like
15:16:59 * joanie wonders if aleiva knows anything?
15:17:02 <API> "when is planned next spin?"
15:17:12 <aleiva> no sorry
15:17:17 <joanie> also clown are you all set?
15:17:24 <joanie> (with the tarball stuff)
15:17:27 <aleiva> jhernandez is on vacation
15:17:27 <clown> almost joanie...
15:17:39 <joanie> all set == makes sense
15:17:49 <clown> I have the tarballs for gnome-shell and gsettings-desktop-schemas, but ...
15:18:08 <clown> I want to test the prefs dialog "in situ" to see if it will fly.
15:18:20 <clown> probably will upload everthing to the page tomorrow.
15:18:25 <joanie> super
15:19:10 <clown> btw, apparently the AEGIS europe group is happy to use our a11y testing distro for testing the magnifier, at least.
15:19:22 <joanie> :-)
15:19:29 <clown> maybe they will test a bunch of other stuff too (since it's there).
15:19:32 <joanie> two birds one stone yadda yadda
15:19:34 <API> joanie, when you tested the fallback mode, have you used the testing distro ? fedora? ubuntu?
15:19:44 <joanie> fedora and kubuntu
15:20:02 <joanie> (I know that sounds weird, but it was a way to get a truly clean gnome 3 in an *ubuntu environment)
15:20:10 <API> clown, for your information, Consorcio Fernando de los Rios are also happy using it
15:20:22 <clown> API, who are they?
15:20:22 <API> CFDR is this spanish local government
15:20:23 <API> hmm
15:20:25 <API> "entity"
15:20:28 <clown> ah.  okay.
15:20:31 <API> that is paying some accessibility projects
15:20:35 <joanie> clown: Our patrons
15:20:37 <joanie> ;-)
15:20:39 <API> like orca one => aleiva
15:20:48 <API> webkitgtk one => msanchez
15:20:48 <API> etc
15:20:54 <API> so
15:20:58 <API> anything else in this point?
15:21:04 <joanie> not from me
15:21:08 <API> joanie, clow, actions info?
15:21:24 * joanie defers to clown
15:21:31 <clown> #info clown almost done with tarballs for next spin of a11y distro.
15:21:50 <clown> #action clown will upload tarballs to distor page Fri May 6
15:21:56 * clown yields
15:22:16 <joanie> #info Javi is on vacation so we'll have to check with him next week to determine when the next spin shall be.
15:22:29 * joanie re-yields
15:22:32 <aleiva> yeah
15:22:56 <joanie> yeah?
15:23:04 <API> ok, well
15:23:10 <aleiva> to the last info joanie
15:23:21 <joanie> ah thanks aleiva
15:23:26 * API shutting up
15:23:36 <API> ah
15:23:37 <aleiva> we can talk in a coruna about and report it
15:23:48 <API> well, we are out of "official" topics
15:23:49 <API> so
15:23:53 <API> #topic miscellaneous time
15:24:04 <API> anyone wants to say something
15:24:05 <API> short
15:24:12 <API> before finishing the meeting?
15:24:22 <alibezz> I would like to share my timeline
15:24:23 <alibezz> with you
15:24:27 <alibezz> for OPW
15:24:30 <joanie> yay!
15:24:31 <joanie> :-)
15:24:44 * alibezz looking for it in gmail
15:24:45 <API> alibezz, ok, go on please
15:25:16 <alibezz> I've been talking with joanie
15:25:32 <alibezz> and I decided to commit myself with the following 4 tasks
15:26:07 <alibezz> 1 - Cretae one demonstration widget/simple app (4 weeks (once I'll have to learn some libs, decide which app/widget I'll  do, think about good ways to do it, take notes, test it and sync with  the a11y team))
15:26:32 <alibezz> 2 - Convert the Accerciser docs into topic-based help - 2 weeks
15:26:51 <alibezz> 3 - Create a second demo - 3 weeks (1 week less than the first one, once I'll be more experienced)
15:27:26 <alibezz> 4 - Update the developer docs for accessibility implementations - 3 weeks  (since it's a bigger document, when compared with accerciser, and I'll  add a considerable amount of new contents based on my work)
15:27:41 <alibezz> I did this order according to what I'm more identified
15:27:54 <alibezz> I'll get in more details
15:28:03 <alibezz> splitting each task in subtasks
15:28:15 <alibezz> once I'm done with it, I'll mail you all
15:28:25 <joanie> awesome
15:28:27 <alibezz> any suggestions, specially related to the demos themes, is very welcome
15:28:30 <joanie> *and* davidb
15:28:32 <joanie> :-)
15:28:40 <alibezz> yeah yeah *and* davidb
15:28:45 <alibezz> :D
15:28:47 * joanie grins
15:28:51 <joanie> thanks alibezz
15:28:57 <clown> davidb?  he has no time.
15:28:58 <alibezz> thank you all
15:29:04 <API> alibezz, well today fer  and me were checking if there is any kind of tests directory
15:29:08 <API> so you can look at
15:29:08 <joanie> clown: davidb is alibezz's co-mentor
15:29:15 <API> gail test directory
15:29:20 <clown> ah.  perhaps he *does* have time.
15:29:22 <API> although it is basically a directory
15:29:27 <API> to test atk interfaces on gtk-demos
15:29:30 <API> sorry
15:29:32 <API> on gtk-demo
15:29:41 <API> they are tests after all
15:29:53 <API> and in the same way, I guess that once you finish that demo
15:29:57 <API> if it is a gtk demo
15:30:08 <API> the proper place to put it would be that directory
15:30:20 <API> gtk3/modules/other/gail/tests
15:31:19 <API> well, for minutes sake
15:31:32 <API> #info alibezz shared her timeline
15:31:45 <API> #info alibezz is receptive to any feedback from the people
15:32:01 <API> so, I made a brief suggestion
15:32:14 <API> any other one ?
15:32:25 <joanie> the so I made line will be lost
15:32:46 <joanie> lost w.r.t. minutes; not the full log
15:32:49 <alibezz> API: good to know
15:32:59 <alibezz> API: I intend to use GTK
15:33:57 <clown> GTK 2 or GTK 3?  (still wrapping my head around that...)
15:34:21 <alibezz> clown: I don't know yet, but I guess GTK 3
15:34:33 <clown> alibezz:   yes, it is the future.
15:34:46 <alibezz> clown: yeah
15:34:49 <API> clown, and the present ;)
15:34:58 <clown> true
15:35:00 <API> gnome 3 is out after all
15:35:05 <API> well, 5 minutes over time
15:35:09 <API> so meeting over
15:35:14 <aleiva> ok
15:35:20 <API> #endmeeting