10:29 < API> meeting time!
10:30 < bnitz_> yay
10:30 < API> anyway, lets wait a little
10:30 < API> although today we are a lot of people
10:30 <@joanie> bnitz_: you're in a good mood
10:30 <@joanie> ;-)
10:31 ::: clown [~clown@205.211.169.2] joined #a11y-meeting
10:33 < API> well, some gentle minutes
10:33 < API> I think that we can start
10:34 < API> so looking at agenda
10:34 < API> 1.
10:34 < API> Women's outreach program 
10:34 < API> joanie, ?
10:34 < clown> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings#Agenda_for_the_Next_Meeting
10:34 <@joanie> And our candidate is not here.
10:34 <@joanie> Well, in a nutshell, the gnome women's outreach program is accepting applications
10:34 <@joanie> with the deadline being today
10:35 <@joanie> and we have someone who is officially signing up with the Documentation Team
10:35 <@joanie> who is interested in doing a couple of things:
10:35 <@joanie> 1. Updating our developer docs (yayayaya)
10:35 <@joanie> 2. Creating a custom-widget (or several) as a means to demonstrate implementation of ATK
10:35 <@joanie> She's been in touch with API and myself and also introduced herself on our list
10:36 <@joanie> She indicated she'd be able to attend this meeting
10:36 <@joanie> but ....
10:36 <@joanie> I guess the conclusion (if there are not questions) is this:
10:36 <@joanie> We might have a contributor, who's nick (I think) is alibezz (something like that anyway)
10:36 <@joanie> And I've promised we'd all be supportive. :-)
10:36 <@joanie> So we should be supportive
10:36 < API> just a question
10:37 < API> after all those mails
10:37 < API> the outreach is still checking candidates
10:37 < API> right?
10:37 <@joanie> correct
10:37 < API> or alibezz is already in?
10:37 <@joanie> Aline still has to apply
10:37 <@joanie> we don't know if she's in or not yet
10:38 <@joanie> but we should find out soon enough
10:38 <@joanie> The other conclusion -- and for a later meeting
10:38 <@joanie> is that I'd like to start proposing tasks for Women's Outreach next year.
10:38 <@joanie> just like GSoC, the Mass college, etc.
10:39 <@joanie> and I'll volunteer to coordinate that, bug people for possible projects, etc.
10:39 < API> in general "student management"
10:39  >>> joanie is done with this topic unless there are questions
10:39 <@joanie> yup
10:39 < API> well, just a comment
10:39 <@joanie> did the adjunct thang for 6 years.
10:39 < API> aline is taking a look to migrate
10:39 < API> accerciser doc to mallard
10:39 <@joanie> potentially
10:39 < API> so I guess that it would be good to ping bnitz_ 
10:39 < API> bnitz_, ping
10:39 <@joanie> indeed
10:39 <@joanie> :-)
10:39 < API> ;)
10:40 <@joanie> This was one of the reasons I suggested Aline attend our meeting.
10:41 < API> well, lets hope shell be there later
10:41 < API> shell => she'll
10:41 ::: bnitz [~bn128650@muc-ea-fw-1-imap.sun.com] joined #a11y-meeting
10:41 <@joanie> aha!
10:41 < API> hmmm
10:41 <@joanie> speak of the devil
10:41 < API> two brian nitzs
10:41 < API> on the meeting
10:41 < API> bnitz, and bnitz_ 
10:41 <@joanie> send in the clones
10:41 < bnitz> :-)
10:42 < bnitz> I think the other one dropped off the network so I might have missed something.
10:42 < API> well, we were talking about you
10:42 < API> in summary:
10:42 < API> <API> aline is taking a look to migrate
10:42 < API> <API> accerciser doc to mallard
10:42 < API> <joanie> potentially
10:42 < API> <API> so I guess that it would be good to ping bnitz_ 
10:42 < API> <API> bnitz_, ping
10:42 < API> aline is someone who volunteer herself to help on improve a11y doc
10:42 < API> bnitz, so now you are pinged
10:42 < bnitz> Great!
10:43 < API> further details on following weeks
10:43 < API> so
10:43 < API> any question or next point?
10:43 <@joanie> bnitz in particular the mallardizing of your current docs
10:44 < bnitz> joanie:Are there components besides Orca which have been Mallardized?  
10:44 <@joanie> I believe jrocha did ocrfeeder
10:45 <@joanie> I do not know about caribou but can look
10:45 < bnitz> Ok.  I still have the outline you and shaun and I worked on but haven't had time to move beyond that.
10:45 <@joanie> understood
10:45 <@joanie> even if this initial pass is just a conversion in format, it will be a start
10:45 <@joanie> and having gone through the mallard process, I can help as well
10:46 < bnitz> Thank you!
10:46 <@joanie> (and her mentor is one of the main Doc team guys)
10:46 <@joanie> so I think we're good
10:46 < API> ok
10:46 < API> good
10:46 < API> sooo
10:46 < API> lets move next poing
10:46 < API> point
10:47 < API> 2 .GNOME 3.0 is out
10:47 < API>     Is it working? 
10:47 < bnitz> API will aline contact me directly?
10:47 ::: bnitz_ [~bnitz@62.231.57.248] quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
10:47 < API> bnitz, yes afaik, although first I guess that
10:47 <@joanie> (bnitz: dunno. Let's wait and see)
10:47 < API> they require to solve all the things related with the
10:47 < API> women outreach
10:47 < API> as we said before
10:47 < API> they are still reviewing candidates
10:47 < API> so, as I said
10:47 < API> 2 .GNOME 3.0 is out
10:48 < API> the big new on the week
10:48 < API> gnome 3.0 is here
10:48 < API> Is it working? 
10:48 < API> well, I guess that there are still work to do
10:48 < API> checking this page
10:48 < API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3
10:48 < API> you still can see a lot of red things
10:48  >>> joanie just updated the Orca section
10:48 < API> a lot of things were included at the last moment
10:49 < API> and a lot of things were rejected
10:49 < API> in the last moment
10:49 <@joanie> ;-)
10:49 < API> anyway, as far as GNOME 3.0
10:49 < API> is here
10:49 < API> the good new
10:49 < API> is that it would be easier to really test a GNOME 3.0 environment
10:49 < API> that leads to next subitem
10:49 ::: clown [~clown@205.211.169.2] quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds]
10:49 < API> 2.2 Testing distro update 
10:49 < API> jhernandez is not here
10:49  >>> joanie has his update
10:50 < API> joanie clown, any new?
10:50 <@joanie> or not
10:50 <@joanie> clown seems to have gone too
10:50 < API> hmmm yes
10:50 < API> so just joanie
10:51 < API> anything new about this testing distro?
10:51 <@joanie> avi is having problems with the build service. But he's hoping today to produce another spin which will include yesterday's release, Joseph's customizations, and Orca from the GNOME 3.0 branch which has the fixes to work with TheSwitch(tm) that were not approved in time for the official release.
10:51 <@joanie> s/avi/javi/
10:51 < API> so those changes
10:51 < API> TheSwitch a
10:51 < API> are already on orca masteR?
10:51 <@joanie> heck no
10:51 <@joanie> only the branch
10:51 <@joanie> as they will break access to things like Ubuntu
10:52 <@joanie> and everyone else who uses master but not gnome 3
10:52 <@joanie> Ale and I will be sorting out what to do about this issue soon
10:52 <@joanie> but right now gnome-3-specific stuff is ONLY going into the gnome-3 branch
10:52 < API> you mean something that would allow to install master orca on both old and new gnome?
10:52 <@joanie> Orca branched a couple of weeks ago
10:52 <@joanie> correct API
10:53 < API> ok, good
10:53 < API> btw, it is supposed that last fedora is a "good guy" gnome 3 distro?
10:53 <@joanie> we can't keep this only-gnome-3 thing up forever as we make too many changes/fixes/feature additions
10:53 <@joanie> by which you mean what?
10:53 < API> I mean
10:53 < API> that as I said
10:53 < API> one good thing of the GNOME 3.0 release
10:53 < API> is that
10:54 < API> it would be easier to get a distro to test things
10:54 < API> having a custom a11y distro
10:54 < API> is good for testing
10:54 < API> but not sure if it is a long term solution
10:54 <@joanie> and for demonstrating where we are as a team
10:54 < API> as most people use
10:54 < API> "mainstream" distros
10:54 <@joanie> agreed
10:54 <@joanie> but it does simplify the process for people in our team/community who don't want to deal with jhbuild
10:54 < mgorse> Yeah, and I think that testing with mainstream distros will become easier as time goes on and fixes get included
10:55 < API> mgorse, yeah this is my point
10:55 < API> ubuntu is discarded
10:55 <@joanie> and if someone like matthias comes along and says how broken things are in Fedora, and we have a working test distro
10:55 <@joanie> we could point him to that
10:55 < API> as natty will be still mostly gnome 2
10:55 <@joanie> and use it as a way to figure out what he's done differently
10:55 < API> point him to that?
10:55 < bnitz> I'm working on a test tinderbox using jhernandez's a11y test distro as a starting point
10:55 < API> that==?
10:55 <@joanie> that == testing distro
10:56 < API> joanie, ah ok
10:56 <@joanie> because it could be the need for the latest at-spi
10:56 <@joanie> or orca
10:56 <@joanie> or atk
10:56 <@joanie> or who knows
10:56 <@joanie> turned out one of his issues was using gnome speech and bonobo kept tanking
10:56 <@joanie> it would be nice to know if *we* think something is broken
10:56 < API> last fedora still have bonobo?
10:56 <@joanie> when we get such reports
10:56 <@joanie> :-)
10:56 <@joanie> matthias has removed the orca-gnome speech dependency
10:56 < API> sincerely, it is time to have something without any bonobo at all
10:57 <@joanie> and put speech-dispatcher in its place
10:57 <@joanie> agreed
10:57 < API> it has been decrepated for years
10:57 <@joanie> that's what I told him
10:57 <@joanie> ;-)
10:57 < API> at first a lot of people blamed a11y to keep bonobo
10:57 ::: korn [~Peter_Kor@75-25-140-220.lightspeed.okldca.sbcglobal.net] joined #a11y-meeting
10:57 < API> but now it seems that bonobo is just here to make our lives more complex
10:57 <@joanie> now they'll have to find something else to pin on us
10:57 <@joanie> :-P
10:58 <@joanie> btw, I just remembered a gnome 3 bug wrt the panel
10:58 ::: clown [~clown@205.211.169.2] joined #a11y-meeting
10:58 <@joanie> and am looking now for that issue
10:58 < API> well,anyway focusing on this
10:58 < API> yes, 
10:58 < API> about that
10:58 < API> it would be good to update our page review with that
10:58 <@joanie> yup
10:59 < API> and about that page
10:59 < API> well, lets talk about it later
10:59 < API> and move to next subitem
10:59 < API> 2.3
10:59 < API> Accerciser with AT-SPI2 
11:00 <@joanie> So I have another Javi report
11:00 < API> about accerciser?
11:00 <@joanie> Javi still needs to dive into the code, but he says he's aware of some changes that will need to be made:
11:00 <@joanie> migration from gconf to gsettings
11:00 <@joanie> moving from pygtk to introspection
11:00 <@joanie> and Javi has voluteered to do these things if bnitz is not already planning on doing so
11:01 < bnitz> I would appreciate that.
11:01 <@joanie> I shall pass that along. Thanks!
11:01 < bnitz> I only planned to do it if no one else was.
11:01 <@joanie> the other thing I'll ask/point out
11:01 <@joanie> is that, unlike the Orca situation,
11:01 <@joanie> I think it might make sense to maintain a couple of branches of Accerciser
11:01 <@joanie> one for gnome 3 and one for gnome 2, xfce, kde, etc.
11:01 < bnitz> I think that may be true.
11:02 <@joanie> I think it's doable in your case bnitz 
11:02 <@joanie> because your code base is stable
11:02 < bnitz> Yes.
11:02 <@joanie> features are in place
11:02 <@joanie> and it's just occasional bug fixes
11:02 <@joanie> and with all the development in all the different DE's these days
11:02 <@joanie> we need to provide everyone (even those silly enough to not be using gnome 3 :-P) with Accerciser
11:03 < bnitz> I haven't been using GNOME 3 until very recently but I was under the impression that some people had been using accerciser with GNOME 3.
11:03 < bnitz> Did something break in the last minute?
11:04 <@joanie> Last week or the week before, some people said so
11:04 <@joanie> one issue Javi mentioned is that the key is not getting set correctly because it's using gconf and not gsettings
11:04 < bnitz> I see.
11:05 < API> bnitz, at least me and msanchez were using it on gnome3, but on a jhbuild environment
11:05 < bnitz> API: but you were probably using gconf, right?
11:06 < API> bnitz, on that jhbuild environment I was using gsettings
11:06 < API> some time ago I was also affected by the mixed gconf-gseetings environment
11:06 < API> as accerciser was using gconf via old pythong bindings
11:06 < API> and other apps gsettings
11:07 < API> I was affected until mgorse added a quick solution
11:07 <@joanie> So the conclusions of all this is:
11:07 <@joanie> Javi will do the required conversion work to Accerciser
11:07 <@joanie> and most likely there will be two branches existing to support the different DE's 
11:07 <@joanie> correct?
11:08 < bnitz> Yes.  
11:08 < API> ok, so moving to next subitem?
11:08  >>> joanie nods
11:08 < API> 4. Planning for 3.2 
11:09 < API> well, the first thing I would like to talk about is this:
11:09 < API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3
11:09 < API> this was a planning page toward GNOME 3
11:09 < API> in fact
11:09 < API> more than a planning page
11:09 < API> a "list of issues page"
11:09 < API> I think that we should maintain it
11:09 < API> but the name is not anymore valid
11:10 <@joanie> Can I propose a different option?
11:10 < API> yes you can
11:10 <@joanie> Namely, let's keep it around, but start a nice new fresh and clean 3.2 page
11:10 <@joanie> this page will have a template
11:10 <@joanie> so that every entry looks consistent
11:10 <@joanie> and is easy to read
11:11 <@joanie> and we only add the stuff we know are issues which can actually be addressed
11:11 <@joanie> like with the JAW, we have not heard from Ke Wang
11:11 <@joanie> and since he is no longer at Oracle, JAW is no longer a job duty
11:11 <@joanie> until people complain and/or we hit an issue
11:11 < korn> Joanie - how much work is left in JAW?  Just bug fixes?
11:11 <@joanie> I believe so
11:11 <@joanie> but that's just one example
11:11 < API> korn, this is one of the problems
11:11 <@joanie> CSPI is another
11:11 < API> we don't have anyone 
11:12 <@joanie> maybe we'll do it; maybe we won't
11:12 < API> telling us the state of JAW
11:12 <@joanie> but it's not something I think belongs on a 3.2 page
11:12 <@joanie> the problem with the 3.0 page imho is that it's huge 
11:12 <@joanie> tl;dr syndrome
11:12 < API> korn, last jaw update: 24-Mar-2010
11:12 < paul_h> I've used jaw a bit, it basically works
11:13 < API> joanie, ok, it makes sense, but it would be good to have them somewhere, 
11:13 <@joanie> paul_h: and we have open bugs
11:13 < API> like our promised "other things page"
11:13 <@joanie> API sure, let's keep the 3.0 page
11:13 < API> hmmm
11:13 < Pendulum> what about a separate page for 'unadressable issues' so that things like JAW aren't cluttering a 3.2 page, but there's a clear record that it is not up-to-date and may not ever be?
11:13 <@joanie> i mean, we've got a perfectly (long, non-uniform) functional page already
11:13 < API> joanie, well, but what I was saying is that the name of that page is not proper anymore
11:14 <@joanie> Agreed
11:14 < API> it would be confusing to maintain it
11:14 < korn> Is the purpose of the 3.2 page to traack all that is wrong for 3.2, or to track all of the things planned to be fixed for 3.2?
11:14 < API> Pendulum, yeah, I was thinking on somethink like that
11:14 < korn> If the latter, you could then migrate (well, copy) content from the 3.0 page to the 3.2 page, as they get resourced.
11:14 < API> in fact
11:14 <@joanie> korn: exactly
11:14 < API> for this "missing things" on current modules
11:14 < Pendulum> yeah
11:14 < API> I was thinking to avoid the 3.2 think
11:15 <@joanie> although not copy because they must follow the rigid template I would like to make ;-)
11:15 < API> and just a "know issues page"
11:15 < API> not tied to any gnome 3 release
11:15 < API> and any hypothetical "gnome 3.2" would be
11:15 < API> a page
11:15 < API> tied to new features or apps that we want to add
11:15 < API> or fixes that we plan that will be on 3.2
11:16 < API> although not sure if my proposal is also somewhat confusing
11:16 < paul_h> personally I'd just refactor the gnome3 page. it's still discussing how to make gnome 3 accessible, whether it's 3.0 or 3.2
11:16 < korn> One other thing to think about for the 3.2 page: highlighting the things we need from outside the GNOME a11y team -> to better bring pressure (perhaps from the release team, he says hopefully) with "fully a11y" being a goal for 3.2.
11:16 < clown> good point, paul_h
11:16 <@joanie> korn: And that's one of the motivators for a clean, shorter, uniform page
11:16 <@joanie> the RT does look at our 3.0 page
11:16 <@joanie> but my eyes glaze over when I read it
11:17 < API> korn, in my opinion we can't promise a so general objetive on gnome 3.2
11:17 <@joanie> so surely they are having a similar problem
11:17 < API> taking into account the work to do
11:17 < API> and the people we have
11:17 < API> I mean "full a11y" thing
11:17 <@joanie> by which you mean don't have?
11:17 < API> all people want that
11:17 < API> but not mather if we
11:17 < API> say that it is our objetive
11:17 < API> if pragmatically we can't achieve it
11:18 < API> btw, about this feature thing
11:18 < API> something I sent to the list
11:18 < API> https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features
11:18 < API> this is the reason I proposed a features page
11:18 < API> it has a accessibility section
11:18 < API> soo
11:18  >>> clown loading...
11:18 < API> clown, is empty
11:18 < API> we should fill it ;)
11:18 < API> but they gave us the template
11:18 < API> soooo
11:18 < API> this is the reason I proposed a "feature page"
11:19 < API> that will be this one
11:19 < clown> API, it isn't even loading an empty page in my browser. :-)
11:19 < API> and a "issue thing"
11:19  >>> clown is loaded...
11:19 < API> that issue page would be
11:19 < API> our current gnome 3.0 page
11:19 < API> but not tied to any release
11:19 < API> that page represents the technical problems
11:19 < API> beyond just bugs
11:19 < API> that prevents a coherent a11y on gnome 3
11:20 < API> and then have a page with other things
11:20 < API> this is my proposal
11:20 < API> anyway
11:20 < clown> API,  technical problems for "GNOME 3.x"?
11:20 < API> not a problem to follow joanie idea
11:20 < API> clown, if you take a look to our current gnome3 page
11:20 <@joanie> I'm not positive our ideas are that different API
11:20 < API> it is more about things that doesn't work properly
11:20 < clown> right
11:20 < API> that new things that we plan to implement
11:21 < API> it is more technical things
11:21 < API> although some things
11:21 < clown> right, I was suggesing the name GNOME 3.x
11:21 < API> like your improvements on gnome -shell mag is more aligned with "features thing"
11:21 < clown> to gloss over the actual release number.
11:21 < API> as I say, probably my proposal is also confusing
11:21 <@joanie> API so lemme propose the following
11:21 <@joanie> after this meeting
11:22 <@joanie> I will draft a 3.2 page
11:22 <@joanie> and bounce it off of you
11:22 <@joanie> you give me feedback, we discuss, bla bla bla
11:22 <@joanie> and we present a concrete, demonstrable proposal
11:22 <@joanie> to the team next week
11:22 < API> ok, makes sense
11:22 <@joanie> cool
11:22 < API> and in fact we are mostly over time in this poing
11:22 < clown> +1
11:22 < API> point
11:22 <@joanie> and then I'll do 2 weeks worth of minutes. :-P
11:22 < API> so anything else from anyone else about this?
11:23  >>> joanie is so behind
11:23 < API> ok, so last poin
11:23 < API> t
11:24 < API> 4.Updating the project's outdated pages (incl. GNOME Developer Guide) 
11:24 < API> hmm, in fact 3.
11:24 < API> this is related to aline work, or unrelated?
11:24 < API> joanie?
11:24 <@joanie> both
11:24 <@joanie> you and I had already been talking about it
11:24 <@joanie> and then Aline came along
11:24 <@joanie> given the time, let's table it for now
11:24 <@joanie> and see how Aline's application progresses
11:26 < API> joanie, ok
11:26 < API> well
11:27 < API> 3 minutes til the end
11:27 < API> miscellaneous time
11:27 < API> someone want to say something sensible
11:27 < API> not included on the agenda?
11:27 < korn> Dunno if this is sensible or not...
11:27 <@joanie> heh
11:27 < korn> Just curious: any sense of when the next a11y spin will come out?
11:27 < clown> I want to say something sensible that was in the agenda, but go ahead korn.
11:27 < korn> Hmmm... a sensible clown.  What is the world coming to?
11:28 < clown> up is down...
11:28 <@joanie> korn: you missed that
11:28 < API> a11y spin?
11:28 < korn> Sorry...  I was a bit late.
11:28 <@joanie> the executive summary is that Javi was having problems with the build server/system
11:28 < clown> yeah, I missed it too, due to network outage.
11:28 <@joanie> but he plans to do it tonight if possible
11:28 < korn> Awesoem!
11:29 <@joanie> incorporating some things which didn't make it into gnome 3 officially
11:29 <@joanie> due to time constraints
11:29 < clown> it already is late there where Javi is, right?  It's almost "tonight".
11:29 <@joanie> They stay up crazy late, these Sevilla guys
11:29 < korn> And then they go out and have dinner...
11:30 <@joanie> exactly
11:30 < clown> I don't see him here, nor in #a11y.  How can I get in touch with him?
11:30 <@joanie> email
11:30 <@joanie> clown: he's at a release party in Granada
11:30 <@joanie> hence my reporting for him
11:30 < clown> his email is (so I don't have to use google)?
11:30 <@joanie> jhernandez@emergya.es
11:30 < korn> Tapas, with garlic & tomatos on toasted bread...  (getting hungry)
11:30 < clown> thanks!
11:31 <@joanie> korn: It's sensible that you get hungry (hopes API approves)
11:31 <@joanie> ;-)
11:31  >>> clown misses that square in Seville, *sigh*.
11:31  >>> joanie is going back
11:31  >>> clown is jealous
11:31 <@joanie> and staying near there I believe
11:31 <@joanie> Juanje helped me find a place
11:32  >>> clown wonders if a hungry clown is a sensible clown
11:32  >>> joanie wonders at what point boris and natasha are going to feel the wrath of fearless leasder
11:32 < korn> Meanwhile the next AEGIS conference (this year, this Nov.) is in Brussels.  Not a great place for Tapas...  Good Crêpes Flambé though...
11:32 <@joanie> leader even
11:32 < mgorse> You're going to Seville?
11:33 <@joanie> mgorse: Yeah, Orca team work plus vacation time
11:33 <@joanie> GNOME 3 nearly killed me and I need a break
11:33  >>> mgorse nods
11:33 < API> miscellaneous time became really miscellaneous
11:33 < API> ok folks
11:33 < API> meeting over
11:33 < API> see you
11:33 <@joanie> hehe
11:33 < clown> thanks API!