1 10:37 <@API> lets start 
   2 10:37  >>> joanie sits
   3 10:37 <@API> the meeting
   4 10:37 <@API> we are here for that
   5 10:37  >>> clown is afraid of API's arms.
   6 10:37 < jhernandez> xD
   7 10:37 < |Lupin|> nice to meet you all
   8 10:37 < clown> hi Lupin
   9 10:37 <@API> |Lupin|, just in case
  10 10:37 <@API> we have this page
  11 10:37 <@API> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
  12 10:37 <@API> to organize the meetings
  13 10:37 ::: API changed the topic of #a11y-meeting to: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
  14 10:38 <@API> with a agenda and so on
  15 10:38 <@API> so if in the future you want to talk about something specific, feel free to add any item on it
  16 10:38 <@API> normally the meeting is about following the agenda
  17 10:38 <@API> sooo
  18 10:38 <@API> as the meeting started
  19 10:38 <@API> 1. GNOME 3 
  20 10:39 < |Lupin|> ok API thanks a lot !
  21 10:39 <@API>  1.1 General updates/news? 
  22 10:39 <@API> |Lupin|, you are welcome
  23 10:39 <@API> well about this point
  24 10:39 <@API> a new gentle reminder
  25 10:39 <@API> GNOME 3.0 is near
  26 10:39 <@API> so it would be good to update this page
  27 10:39 <@API> in order to know the current status
  28 10:39 <@API> in fact, after GNOME 3.0 release
  29 10:40 <@API> I guess that this page will help us to track issues to GNOME 3.2
  30 10:40 ::: mgorse [mgorse@SDF.ORG] joined #a11y-meeting
  31 10:40 < mgorse> Hi. Sorry I'm late
  32 10:40 <@API> mgorse, no problem just starting
  33 10:41 ::: Bryen [~Bryen@c-24-12-98-169.hsd1.il.comcast.net] left #a11y-meeting []
  34 10:41 <@API> GNOME 3
  35 10:41 <@API>     General updates/news? 
  36 10:41 <@API> well, anything about this point
  37 10:41 <@API> ?
  38 10:41 <@joanie> Matthias say Orca is largely working (yay!)
  39 10:41 <@joanie> but it doesn't quit when he disables screen saver. So I'm going to look at that today
  40 10:42 <@joanie> but at least it's a positive step. He says gnome-shell was presented too. ;-)
  41 10:42 <@API> joanie, yep, frederic tested that
  42 10:42 <@API> and then I guess that the work of mgorse and colin walters helped to avoid some 
  43 10:42 <@API> upstart racy things
  44 10:42 <@joanie> way to go mgorse and colin!
  45 10:43 <@joanie> (I'm done)
  46 10:43 <@API> well, so next
  47 10:43 <@API> 1.2 Is Accerciser still broken? 
  48 10:43 <@API> after read the minutes of previous week
  49 10:43 <@API> and based on my own experiences
  50 10:43 < mgorse> yeah; that was Colin's patch really
  51 10:44 <@API> some people have some problems with accerciser running on gnome3
  52 10:44 <@API> soo
  53 10:44 <@API> what about rising accerciser risk level?
  54 10:44 <@API> right now is medium, but not sure if it applies now
  55 10:44 <@API> bnitz, what do you think?
  56 10:44 <@joanie> +1
  57 10:44 < mgorse> Are there bugs filed?
  58 10:44 < bnitz> Yes raise the level
  59 10:44 <@API> as far as I know, you are now focused on gnome 2 things
  60 10:44  >>> bnitz needs bugs and more information
  61 10:44 < bnitz> other than "some people" and some problems
  62 10:45 <@API> yes it is true
  63 10:45 < bnitz> hard to work with that so yeah it's high risk.
  64 10:45 <@joanie> lol
  65 10:45 <@API> these days
  66 10:45 <@API> those errors
  67 10:45 <@API> are mostly managed as
  68 10:45 <@joanie> msanchez: last week Aleiva said you couldn't start Accerciser at all. Is this (still) the case?
  69 10:45 <@API> "it is not working for me, lets ping mgorse or bnitz"
  70 10:45 < mgorse> lol
  71 10:45 <@API> we need something more "homogeneus"
  72 10:46 <@API> homogeneous in fact
  73 10:46 <@API> but ok, it seems that all agree
  74 10:46 <@API> so, actions:
  75 10:46 < bnitz> Can anyone tell me if it works in jhernandez's iso?
  76 10:46 <@API> 1. increase risk
  77 10:46 <@API> 2. people with problems, please report bugs
  78 10:46 < mgorse> but then sometimes it's hard to tell whether there's a problem with at-spi or accerciser vs. a packaging problem vs. something not configured or installed, etc
  79 10:46 <@joanie> mgorse: Aleiva (whom I've pinged) last week said it didn't build
  80 10:47 <@API> mgorse, well yes, but this is one of the accerciser purposes
  81 10:47 < msanchez> joanie: yes, I had problems with that, but finally "fixed" it by hiding the API Browser tab
  82 10:47 <@API> checks if a11y doesn't work
  83 10:47 <@joanie> You can browse API?
  84 10:47 <@API> if accerciser doesn't work fine, we can suppose that a11y in general will have problems
  85 10:47 <@joanie> (sorry)
  86 10:47 < msanchez> I'll check if it's still failing and file a bug accordingly if so
  87 10:47 <@joanie> msanchez: thanks!!
  88 10:47 < bnitz> API true.
  89 10:47  >>> bnitz is running in a virtualized environment where gnome-3 or anything 3D sux.
  90 10:48 <@joanie> bnitz: do you have a spare machine you could use for gnome 3?
  91 10:48 < bnitz> Which reminds me, that fallback mode we get when 3D accel isn't available, will that stick around and is it meant to be accessible?
  92 10:48 < clown> bnitz, good question.
  93 10:48 <@API> bnitz, the fallback mode
  94 10:48 <@API> in theory has two purposes
  95 10:48 <@API> people with no 3d accel
  96 10:48 <@API> and *a11y*
  97 10:48 < jhernandez> bnitz, accerciser is compiled/installed fine in testing distro, but there are problems with at-spi
  98 10:48 < bnitz> joanie:not at the moment.  My laptop doesn't even support 3D on ubuntu 10.04 
  99 10:49 <@API> because current a11y support on gnome-shell is not enough
 100 10:49 <@API> improving but not enough, and planned for 3.2
 101 10:49 <@API> so testing gnome 3.0 should also test the fallback mode
 102 10:49 < bnitz> API: That I can do ;-)
 103 10:49 <@API> in fact, from our a11y pov, the main test should be done on the fallback mode
 104 10:50 < bnitz> I'll see if I can get a 3D capable machine so I can run gnome-shell and see what other people are seeing.
 105 10:51 < bnitz> jhernandez: Can you elaborate on at-spi problems?
 106 10:51 <@API> bnitz, as I said, fallback mode should be also tested
 107 10:52 <@API> well, I think that accerciser thing was clarified
 108 10:52 <@API> so lets move
 109 10:52 <@API> 2. The (still-largely-outdated) 'Status Page' 
 110 10:53 <@API> hmm, I already included that on the previous item
 111 10:53 <@API> but anyway
 112 10:53 <@API> please update gnome 3.0 page
 113 10:53 <@API> please write down current state, not how it was one year ago
 114 10:53 <@joanie> On that topic....
 115 10:53 <@API> yes?
 116 10:53 <@joanie> There are some things on that page that will just not get updated if we leave it to people to do so
 117 10:54 < jhernandez> bnitz, I'll comment problems with you ok? ;)
 118 10:54  >>> mgorse adds that to his already-long to-do list :)
 119 10:54 <@joanie> jhernandez: I'd like to hear them too
 120 10:54 < bnitz> jhernandez: Thanks I was going to ask that.
 121 10:54 <@joanie> but first things first
 122 10:54 <@joanie> so about the page
 123 10:54 < jhernandez> joanie, that's the way!
 124 10:54 < jhernandez> go ahead with "the page"
 125 10:54 <@joanie> I am wondering if we should not just have a status page .... subcommittee and spend an hour at some point 
 126 10:55 <@joanie> discussing, updating, and concluding 
 127 10:55 <@joanie> (sorry kvm fail)
 128 10:56 <@joanie> I mean, CSPI, libgail-gnome, etc.
 129 10:56 < clown> +1
 130 10:56 <@joanie> can (some of us) conclude what the deal is with them once and for all
 131 10:56 <@joanie> ?
 132 10:56 <@API> well joanie, in fact this is related
 133 10:56 <@API> imho
 134 10:56 <@API> with the testing thing
 135 10:56 <@joanie> And perhaps make an "Ain't gonna happen" section
 136 10:56 <@API> at least in some items
 137 10:57 <@joanie> API go on (please elaborate)
 138 10:58 <@API> joanie, well, for example
 139 10:58 <@API> about the a11y indicators 
 140 10:58 <@API> on gnome 3
 141 10:58 <@API> etc
 142 10:58 <@API> they are something that are required to be tested with the distro
 143 10:58 <@joanie> ohhh. You mean we test and then we update.
 144 10:58 <@API> although it is true that with your examples
 145 10:58 <@API> cspi, libgail-gnome it is also a thing
 146 10:59 <@API> about see his status
 147 10:59 <@API> anyway
 148 10:59 <@API> Im not sure about it
 149 10:59 <@API> I never touched libgail-gnome for example, so I don't know 
 150 10:59 <@API> if a meeting
 151 10:59 <@API> and say "I don't know" about it could solve it
 152 11:00 <@joanie> okay, then I will keep pinging people
 153 11:00 <@joanie> and see if we can get a definitive (or any) answer out of them
 154 11:01 <@API> joanie, so, moving on?
 155 11:01 <@joanie> yessir
 156 11:02 <@API> s
 157 11:02 <@API> 3. A11y testing distro, and how to make a bootable USB (Joseph). 
 158 11:02 <@API> clown, ?
 159 11:02 < clown> okay...
 160 11:02 < clown> I used a tool from the "Made of Easy" site to make a bootable USB ...
 161 11:03 < clown> See: http://gnome3.org/tryit.html
 162 11:03 < clown> and, it worked fine for that iso, but...
 163 11:03 < clown> I couldn't build a bootable USB from the a11y testing distro iso.
 164 11:03 < jhernandez> clown, i have crashed with this problem too
 165 11:03 < clown> it builds fine, but boots not.
 166 11:03 < clown> jhernandez:  so, I'm not alone.
 167 11:04 < jhernandez> I supposed to make usb as with fcrozat spin, but it doesn't work
 168 11:04 < jhernandez> i burned to a cd and it works
 169 11:04 < jhernandez> so, at this moment, don't know what's the problem here
 170 11:04 < clown> ah, okay, I could try that for now.
 171 11:04 < clown> the cd I mean.
 172 11:04 < jhernandez> :)
 173 11:05 <@joanie> jhernandez: and you built the usb option available in susestudio?
 174 11:05 < clown> The main reason I'm doing this is to make sure the mag prefs dialog I sent to  the distro page actually works.
 175 11:05 < jhernandez> ok, anyway, i'll sure myself next spin will be bootable with USB :s
 176 11:05 < clown> the good news:  it does work on the with "made of easy" iso.
 177 11:05 < clown> great jhernandez!
 178 11:05 < bnitz> jhernandez : Another data point, I'm running from VirtualBox and it worked.  (though 3d sucked)
 179 11:06 < clown> will you include the mag prefs app I submitted?
 180 11:06  >>> joanie thinks this might be a good time for jhernandez to elaborate on the at-spi issue
 181 11:06 < clown> bnitz:  yeah, I did the same with virtualbox -- same outcome.
 182 11:07 < jhernandez> clown, I'm waiting for stabilization in some gnome code, 2.91.92 packages were broken by a vuntz patch
 183 11:07 < jhernandez> :S
 184 11:07 < clown> jhernandez:  okay, keep me posted.
 185 11:07 < jhernandez> but, include this in the distro isn't a problem
 186 11:07 < bnitz> clown: FWIW if you have good 3D support for the host OS you can enable 3D and it won't be too horrible.
 187 11:07 < clown> btw, peter korn thinks this test distro is a very good idea.
 188 11:07 < jhernandez> :)
 189 11:07 < jhernandez> i'll choke you! :)
 190 11:08  >>> joanie snickers
 191 11:08 < jhernandez> yes, for us is a great idea
 192 11:08 <@joanie> What a mean thing to say clown :-P
 193 11:08 < clown> bnitz, let's touch base later, and you can tell me how to do that
 194 11:08 < bnitz> ok
 195 11:08 < clown> ??
 196 11:08 < jhernandez> bnitz, ok!
 197 11:08  >>> clown clown's are not mean.  just scary sometimes.
 198 11:08 < jhernandez> virtual machines are virtual machines :S
 199 11:09 <@API> well, so ... please
 200 11:09 <@API> conclusion, and action items?
 201 11:09 ::: aleiva [~gloob@petersburgo.euler.es] joined #a11y-meeting
 202 11:09 < clown> API:  I wait for the next spin from jhernandez, and use a CD for the time being.
 203 11:09 <@API> ok
 204 11:09 < jhernandez> well, I added to my backlog booteable USB thing
 205 11:10 < jhernandez> so, for me, this point is ended
 206 11:10 <@API> so, can I move to next item?
 207 11:10 <@API> ok, thanks
 208 11:10 < clown> fine with me.
 209 11:10 <@joanie> I bet clown 
 210 11:10 <@API> 4. Banning of DST -- along with Joseph's wiki-editing privs (Joanie). 
 211 11:10 <@API> joanie, ?
 212 11:10 <@joanie> Clown put it there (the first part)
 213 11:10 <@joanie> moving on
 214 11:10 < clown> no time for that item.
 215 11:11 <@API> ?¿
 216 11:11 <@API> ok, as you wish
 217 11:11 < clown> just spring forward to the next
 218 11:11 <@joanie> API check the wiki history for that page
 219 11:11 <@joanie> ba-dum-dum
 220 11:11 <@API> 5. New subscribe-able calendar has arrived! 
 221 11:11 <@API> joanie, your point
 222 11:11 <@joanie> https://www.google.com/calendar/ical/gnome.a11y%40gmail.com/public/basic.ics
 223 11:11 <@joanie> It's a done deal
 224 11:11 <@joanie> meetings (and the Atk Hackfest) are in there
 225 11:12 <@joanie> subscribe
 226 11:12 <@joanie> or don't
 227 11:12 <@joanie> (done)
 228 11:12 <@joanie> well, not quite done: I'll also add a link to the meetings page
 229 11:12 <@joanie> and the main team page
 230 11:12 <@joanie> and include it in my weekly reminders
 231 11:12 <@joanie> (now done)
 232 11:12  >>> clown tries it out..
 233 11:13  >>> clown works for me.
 234 11:13 < clown> thanks joanie
 235 11:13 <@joanie> yay!
 236 11:14 <@joanie> thank aleiva. It was his idea.
 237 11:14  >>> clown thanks aleiva
 238 11:14 <@API> joanie, anything else?
 239 11:14  >>> joanie is just a humble minion.
 240 11:14 <@joanie> not on this topic
 241 11:14 <@API> ok
 242 11:15 <@API> so, last item on the meeting
 243 11:15 <@API> 6. Action Item update 
 244 11:15  >>> API checking
 245 11:16 <@joanie> AI's are getting out of control
 246 11:16 <@API> well fer
 247 11:16 <@API> is not here
 248 11:16 <@API> joanie, yes it is true
 249 11:16 <@API> but some of them were already solved
 250 11:16  >>> joanie nods
 251 11:16 <@API> but
 252 11:16 <@API> soemthing that it is required to be done remembered:
 253 11:16 <@API> Q4 update!
 254 11:16 <@API> me included
 255 11:16 <@API> should update Q4
 256 11:16 <@API> as in brief
 257 11:16 <@joanie> yup
 258 11:16 <@API> it would start the Q1-2011 update
 259 11:17 <@joanie> The other thing that would be helpful now that more team members are stepping up (thank goodness!)
 260 11:17 <@joanie> is that if you get an AI and do that AI, remove the AI from the list
 261 11:17 <@API> I think that this is the most thing to be solved
 262 11:17 <@API> soon thing on the action list
 263 11:17 <@joanie> I remove 'em when I know they're done
 264 11:17 <@API> so
 265 11:17 <@joanie> but I cannot keep up with them all
 266 11:17 <@API> ok
 267 11:17 <@API> so
 268 11:17 <@API> lets start with misc time
 269 11:18 <@API> first: as Bryen said on #a11y
 270 11:18 <@API> although we have a page about "missing things on GNOME 3.0"
 271 11:18 <@API> we lack a page about "new things" 
 272 11:18 <@API> and about 
 273 11:18 <@API> ejem
 274 11:18 <@API> "cool" things
 275 11:18 <@API> this triggered my memory
 276 11:18 <@API> as recently all teams were asked about the release notes
 277 11:18 <@API> AFAIK
 278 11:19 <@API> targetted due GNOME 3 release
 279 11:19 <@API> so
 280 11:19 <@API> what about create a quarter report similar page?
 281 11:19 <@API> about GNOME 3.0 new things and so on?
 282 11:19 <@API> or at least to gather release notes?
 283 11:19 <@joanie> release notes usually go on the release notes page afaik
 284 11:20 <@API> ok
 285 11:20 <@API> so this leads to 
 286 11:20 <@API> a GNOME 3.0 page
 287 11:20 <@API> anyway
 288 11:20 <@joanie> https://live.gnome.org/TwoPointNinetyone/ReleaseNotes
 289 11:20 <@API> other approach 
 290 11:20 <@API> would be 
 291 11:20 <@API> update our current gnome page
 292 11:21 <@API> http://projects.gnome.org/accessibility/
 293 11:21 <@API> as it is mostly gnome 2.0 oriented
 294 11:21 <@API> I think that this was and old item
 295 11:21 <@API> not included explicitly on the current action items?
 296 11:21 <@joanie> which?
 297 11:21 <@joanie> release notes
 298 11:21 <@API> sorry, forget that last ? mark
 299 11:21 <@joanie> or update the wiki?
 300 11:22 <@API> I mean that some months ago
 301 11:22 <@API> we started to check our accessibility pages
 302 11:22 <@API> as some were outdated
 303 11:22 <@joanie> and we (I) deleted a lot
 304 11:22 <@API> ie
 305 11:22 <@joanie> and put pointers on other pages
 306 11:22 <@API> http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/gad-how-it-works.html.en
 307 11:22 <@joanie> yeah, that one I missed
 308 11:23 <@API> anyway, I guess that this is a item too long to misc time
 309 11:23 <@API> so using my own gentle reminder
 310 11:23 <@API> we would talk about this in other occasion
 311 11:23 <@API> so, in the remaining misc time
 312 11:23 <@joanie> next week
 313 11:23 <@API> jhernandez, could we go back to the at-spi problems on the distro?
 314 11:23 <@API> could you elaborate that?
 315 11:23 < jhernandez> ok
 316 11:25 < jhernandez> at this moment, accerciser isn't exploring all atk components/applicationsç
 317 11:26 < jhernandez> don't know if problem is accerciser
 318 11:26 < jhernandez> or at-spi
 319 11:26 <@joanie> what's "missing"?
 320 11:26 < jhernandez> so, now, that we have lot of a11y bugs fixed with 2.91.93
 321 11:27 < bnitz> jhernandez: in fallback mode (your distro) accerciser sees itself but doesn't see other stuff.
 322 11:27 < jhernandez> bnitz, that's it!
 323 11:27 <@API> bnitz, only accerciser is registered?
 324 11:27 <@API> jhernandez, did you check if there are two registries running?
 325 11:27 < bnitz> I see errors failure to load pk-gtk-module and canberra-gtk-module when I launch stuff (e.g. eog)
 326 11:27 <@joanie> bnitz: does it see other stuff launched after accerciser?
 327 11:27 <@API> on frederic crozat test
 328 11:27 <@API> he had that problem
 329 11:28 < jhernandez> API, just confirmed that
 330 11:28 <@API> bnitz, that shouldn't be a problem for a missing a11y support
 331 11:28 < clown> bnitz, if I launch gnome shell "by hand", I get that stuff about pk-gtk-module and canberra-gtk-module as well.
 332 11:28 <@API> jhernandez, ok confirmed, but the output?
 333 11:28 < bnitz> I only see one registry
 334 11:28 < jhernandez> there are at-spi-registryd and at-spi2-registryd!
 335 11:28 <@API> jhernandez, I mean, confirmed one registry, or confirmed two
 336 11:28 <@joanie> lol
 337 11:28 < bnitz> I see only at-spi2-registryd
 338 11:28 <@API> jhernandez, well, that means that the distro has both at-spi running
 339 11:29 < mgorse> Sounds similar to what nagappan was running into. I'll see if I can reproduce after the meeting
 340 11:29 <@API> as a gnome 3 thing
 341 11:29 <@API> IMHO
 342 11:29 <@API> it should only include at-spi2
 343 11:29 < jhernandez> yes, so, I'll add to testing distro request list
 344 11:29  >>> mgorse agrees with API if it's GNOME 3
 345 11:30 <@API> jhernandez, ok, thanks
 346 11:30 < jhernandez> thanks you all, i really needed that feedback from all of you
 347 11:30 < jhernandez> ;)
 348 11:31 <@joanie> jhernandez: thanks for doing it!
 349 11:31 <@joanie> you're our hero
 350 11:31 < bnitz> jhernandez: Thanks for the test distro!
 351 11:31 < bnitz> Hey this test distro is a good idea ;-)
 352 11:31 < |Lupin|> thanks to everybody for having acceptedmy silent participation
 353 11:31 < clown> jhernandez, thanks you.
 354 11:32 < jhernandez> :P
 355 11:32 < |Lupin|> (oops, a bit too early perhaps, sorry)
 356 11:32 <@joanie> heroes don't stick out their tongues
 357 11:32  >>> joanie kicks jhernandez 
 358 11:32 <@joanie> ;-)
 359 11:32 < jhernandez> xD
 360 11:32  >>> clown wonders if we should start a improv group.
 361 11:33  >>> joanie is suprised API allowed us to be this silly
 362 11:33 < aleiva> clown: you mean improvement?
 363 11:33 < clown> I wish, aleiva
 364 11:33 < clown> improvisation
 365 11:33 <@API> joanie, well, it is miscellaneous time
 366 11:33 < clown> silly time?
 367 11:33 <@API> anyway, as this seems to be concluded
 368 11:33 <@API> meeting over!!