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   1 14:35:49 <API>	so lets start the meeting with the real people
   2 14:36:00 <clown>	"real"?
   3 14:36:07 <API>	1. Status of BGO#638377 and BGO#638378
   4 14:36:40 <fer>	so, this is needed if we want proper delete text report on java and firefox
   5 14:36:45 <API>	fer mgorse I guess that this is your point
   6 14:37:00 *	API it is a pity not having li here
   7 14:37:12 <mgorse>	Yeah, I just wanted to know the status of those bugs
   8 14:37:36 <mgorse>	It doesn't look like the atk changes are in, and I've been waiting on them to do anything with the AT-SPI changes
   9 14:37:43 <fer>	another question is... as this is somehow an API addtion, we would need to request permission from release team
  10 14:38:13 <fer>	ok, so we need to get Li decission on this
  11 14:38:53 <API>	fer, hmm, because you want those changes to be there before GNOME 3.0?
  12 14:39:11 <fer>	well, if not, firefox 4 is not going to report the right deleted text
  13 14:39:32 <fer>	If I could, I'd put those changes on GNOME 3 and GNOME 2.32.x :)
  14 14:39:54 <joanie>	I would LOVE to see a new 2.32.x release for that
  15 14:40:02 <joanie>	Let's ask Li if we can
  16 14:40:09 <fer>	that would involve Atk and at-spi1 releases
  17 14:40:17 <fer>	Is li maintaining at-spi1?
  18 14:40:23 <joanie>	because the reality is a lot of users are not going to jump to 3.0
  19 14:40:27 <joanie>	I believe he is
  20 14:40:41 <mgorse>	He has been maintaining it in the past, anyway
  21 14:40:46 <joanie>	but if their distros can be convinced to update at-spi and atk
  22 14:40:53 <joanie>	then those users will benefit from the fix
  23 14:41:07 *	jhernandez (~jhernande@83.175.203.146) has joined #a11y-meeting
  24 14:41:08 <API>	well, taking into account that you are still solving the missing knots here
  25 14:41:12 <API>	I guess that the best is
  26 14:41:12 <jhernandez>	hi
  27 14:41:18 <API>	a) finish the work
  28 14:41:24 <API>	b) after then, check if it is possible
  29 14:41:33 <API>	to include that on gnome 3.0 2.32x
  30 14:41:44 <joanie>	who does a) fer?
  31 14:41:50 <fer>	yeah, I can do it
  32 14:41:56 <joanie>	sweet thanks
  33 14:42:02 <fer>	would would be nice to have reviews and so :)
  34 14:42:18 <joanie>	we'll ping Li on that. And I can test.
  35 14:42:24 <mgorse>	I'll look at the AT-SPI changes and review them, in any case; probably no harm in doing that
  36 14:42:31 <fer>	superb!
  37 14:42:34 <joanie>	there you go
  38 14:42:50 <API>	ok, sooo
  39 14:42:59 <API>	anything else about this first item on the agenda?
  40 14:43:13 <fer>	hum, patch for java bridge?
  41 14:43:27 <fer>	it would be nice to have clients taking adventage of that
  42 14:43:39 <fer>	we have the firefox patch, but as far as I know, there is no java bridge patch
  43 14:44:00 <joanie>	we could ping Ke.
  44 14:44:20 <joanie>	My understanding is that he left Oracle but is still around and hacking and maintaining the java atk wrapper
  45 14:44:38 <API>	and also ask him again for a update
  46 14:44:41 <API>	of JAW
  47 14:44:48 *	joanie nods
  48 14:44:49 *	API checking gnome 3.0 page
  49 14:44:54 <API>	Status: 24-Mar-2010
  50 14:44:56 <API>	hmm
  51 14:44:59 <joanie>	he's not been doing releases come to think of it.
  52 14:45:04 <API>	last update done on the last CSUN more or less
  53 14:45:15 <joanie>	well, that's true for other areas I believe
  54 14:45:32 *	joanie takes an action to ping Ke for a life update
  55 14:45:42 <joanie>	unless you want to do it API
  56 14:46:07 <API>	no its fine if you poke Ke
  57 14:46:09 <API>	after that
  58 14:46:24 *	API checking again
  59 14:46:32 <API>	Status: 24-Mar-2010 - needs testing with Orca and other assistive technologies as well as a mix of Java-based applications. 
  60 14:46:41 <API>	you can ask him if we did that orca testing
  61 14:47:06 <API>	so, moving on? any other comment on this item?
  62 14:47:09 <joanie>	I had been using the JAW
  63 14:47:11 <joanie>	yes
  64 14:47:23 <joanie>	as I was saying, I had been using the JAW with Orca
  65 14:47:36 <joanie>	so I can update that status
  66 14:47:42 <joanie>	if that's the only missing update
  67 14:48:15 <API>	ah ok, good
  68 14:48:17 <joanie>	(done)
  69 14:48:54 <API>	ok, so next poing
  70 14:48:55 <API>	point
  71 14:49:03 <API>	2. GNOME 3 Live image preview proposal 
  72 14:49:09 <API>	jhernandez, ?
  73 14:49:12 <jhernandez>	yes
  74 14:49:13 <API>	I guess that this is your point
  75 14:49:25 <jhernandez>	API, you're right
  76 14:49:30 <jhernandez>	;)
  77 14:50:35 <jhernandez>	first, i'll clarify that i wanted a comfortable testing environment, and i started to follow fcrozat's live images
  78 14:51:00 <jhernandez>	but, his image doesn't include all a11y work
  79 14:51:21 <jhernandez>	so, i'll decide to build my own live image for testing purposes
  80 14:51:51 <jhernandez>	i talked it with joanie and she thought it was a good  idea
  81 14:51:59 *	joanie nods
  82 14:52:14 <joanie>	it simplifies life considerably for those of us wanting to test the very latest packages
  83 14:52:15 <jhernandez>	so, we made a list for our needs
  84 14:52:29 <jhernandez>	for this testing purposes
  85 14:52:51 <jhernandez>	shall i continue with the list?
  86 14:52:58 <joanie>	I think so
  87 14:53:01 <jhernandez>	ok
  88 14:53:06 <joanie>	because they are just our needs
  89 14:53:11 <joanie>	not the full team's.
  90 14:53:13 <clown>	jhernandez:  is the list on a web page somewhere?
  91 14:53:16 <joanie>	full team should chime in
  92 14:53:45 <jhernandez>	no, this list was made by mail with joanie
  93 14:53:57 <joanie>	jhernandez: you and I can start a page
  94 14:54:04 <joanie>	but the list is short
  95 14:54:08 <jhernandez>	but, i'll move it to a wiki if you want
  96 14:54:09 <joanie>	at the moment
  97 14:54:28 <jhernandez>	so, the list, at this moment is:
  98 14:54:52 <jhernandez>	1.- AT-SPI2 and friends
  99 14:55:06 <jhernandez>	2.- Orca from master
 100 14:55:19 <jhernandez>	3.- Accerciser
 101 14:55:43 <jhernandez>	4.- Latest WebKitGtk
 102 14:55:52 <jhernandez>	5.- gtk-demo for gtk3
 103 14:56:03 <jhernandez>	6.- speechdispatcher 0.7 or greater
 104 14:56:25 <jhernandez>	7.- Accessible installer if possible (yast sucks)
 105 14:56:39 <jhernandez>	8.- Caribou
 106 14:56:58 <jhernandez>	some of these list items are done
 107 14:57:27 <jhernandez>	but i'll need to try my latest build
 108 14:57:28 <bnitz1>	jhernandez:That's great.  I think this should go on a wiki.
 109 14:57:41 <bnitz1>	what distro do you build it on?  (Does it matter?)
 110 14:57:43 <mgorse>	jhernandez: Are you pulling from git, or building from packages?
 111 14:58:00 <fer>	jhernandez: firefox 4 :)
 112 14:58:08 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, i'm building an openSuse 11.3, as fcrozat's
 113 14:58:31 <API>	jhernandez, in order to test it we could also use a USB image?
 114 14:58:34 <jhernandez>	mgorse, next step is that, building my own packages from masters
 115 14:58:56 <jhernandez>	fer, when i created the wiki, i'll added to the list
 116 14:58:59 <bnitz1>	jhernandez:  Do you use jhbuild?  If so have you defined a a11y testing specific moduleset?
 117 14:59:04 <fer>	thanks jhernandez!
 118 14:59:10 <jhernandez>	API, yes, it could be a USB image, yes
 119 14:59:42 *	bnitz1 has tried jhbuilding an accessible test environment on nearly every other development distro except OpenSuse 11.3
 120 14:59:57 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, i'm using the same workflow as fcrozat's, this is: opensuse builder service (for building packages) and susestudio (for building the distro)
 121 15:00:17 <clown>	"a" USB image?  isn't it an image for each distro?
 122 15:00:44 <clown>	or is that overkill?
 123 15:00:46 <jhernandez>	clown, didn't understand
 124 15:01:09 <clown>	jhernandez:  when I hear "image" I think live DVD image.
 125 15:01:12 <joanie>	clown: fred crozat's using susestudio
 126 15:01:18 <joanie>	http://gnome3.org/tryit.html
 127 15:01:20 <jhernandez>	yes
 128 15:01:36 <API>	clown, not required a DVD thing, this is the reason I asked for the USB
 129 15:01:38 <clown>	joanie, thanks.
 130 15:01:43 <API>	in that way we could test the distro
 131 15:01:45 <jhernandez>	my distro is the same as crozat's but with our needs
 132 15:01:51 <API>	without removing our environment
 133 15:02:02 <clown>	API, understood.  I'm using the word DVD loosely as in DVD *image*
 134 15:02:15 <joanie>	because crozat's isn't the latest a11y stuff
 135 15:02:19 <clown>	so, yes, you could build the "DVD" on a USB stick.
 136 15:02:46 <jhernandez>	API, you can test it by running in a virtual machine or by starting you machine with an USB live
 137 15:03:02 <joanie>	but the point clown (I think) is: NO, there will NOT be an image per distro.
 138 15:03:09 <joanie>	beacuse we're piggy backing off of fred's work
 139 15:03:14 <joanie>	and fred is using opensuse
 140 15:03:16 <API>	well, a virtual machine can be slow.
 141 15:03:19 <joanie>	via susestudio
 142 15:03:36 <clown>	joanie:  just to clarify then:  there is one distro tested?  namely, susestudio?
 143 15:03:50 <joanie>	I didn't say that
 144 15:04:03 <joanie>	fedora and everyone else shipping gnome 3 (okay, maybe that's just fedora)
 145 15:04:04 <jhernandez>	clown, susestudio is a service for building your own distros
 146 15:04:05 <joanie>	are testing
 147 15:04:19 <joanie>	http://susestudio.com/
 148 15:04:32 <joanie>	hmm maybe not
 149 15:04:34 *	clown slowly, clown understands.
 150 15:04:41 <jhernandez>	ok
 151 15:04:45 <jhernandez>	more questions?
 152 15:04:54 <jhernandez>	opinions?
 153 15:04:55 <jhernandez>	ideas?
 154 15:04:57 <joanie>	clown: no worries
 155 15:05:02 <joanie>	but do you understand?
 156 15:05:11 <mgorse>	jhernandez: Thanks for doing this. Let everyone know when you have something ready to test.
 157 15:05:13 <joanie>	i.e. we're just going the path of least resistence
 158 15:05:36 <API>	well, lets try to summary and get actions
 159 15:05:39 <API>	summary:
 160 15:05:48 <jhernandez>	mgorse, of course, i'm hoping in have a release this week
 161 15:05:48 <clown>	joanie:  not completely.  I just read "To run the live image, reboot your computer with the USB stick attached" on the tryit site.  Well, some distro has to boot at that point, no?
 162 15:05:55 <jhernandez>	API, ok
 163 15:05:59 <API>	1) jhernandez is working on a gnome 3.0 environment
 164 15:06:00 <API>	actions:
 165 15:06:12 <API>	1) he will create a wiki page with the packages required
 166 15:06:22 <API>	2) once it is created he will provide it in a common place
 167 15:06:30 <API>	3) people should try to book some time to test it
 168 15:06:38 <API>	Im missing something?
 169 15:06:48 <jhernandez>	for me it's ok
 170 15:07:38 <API>	ok, so lets conclude that this point is finished
 171 15:07:42 *	API checking agenda
 172 15:07:45 <jhernandez>	ok
 173 15:07:49 <API>	3. GNOME 3 Updates 
 174 15:07:56 <API>	well, from my side
 175 15:08:03 <API>	or in general
 176 15:08:09 <API>	recently owen taylor send a mail
 177 15:08:11 <API>	titled
 178 15:08:26 <API>	"Possible UI freeze break: acccessibility menu in panel"
 179 15:08:42 <API>	right now gnome-shell has a accessibility menu  on panel
 180 15:08:51 <API>	but not all the things were working
 181 15:08:56 <API>	or "integrated" with the shell
 182 15:09:16 <API>	right now, it seems that the final conclusion is that they will maintain most of the things
 183 15:09:19 <API>	on the panel
 184 15:09:27 <API>	and will try to fix them
 185 15:09:31 <API>	but removing
 186 15:09:42 <API>	the things that depends on the "accessibility toolkit"
 187 15:09:44 <fer>	(matthias is my new hero, btw)
 188 15:09:44 <API>	that is
 189 15:09:45 <API>	at-spi2
 190 15:09:55 <joanie>	fer: mine too!
 191 15:09:56 <API>	as it requires a logout and so on
 192 15:09:57 <joanie>	omg
 193 15:09:58 <API>	that means
 194 15:09:58 *	clown can verify that not many of those a11y toggles do anything.
 195 15:10:09 <API>	remove "screen reader" and on screen keyboard
 196 15:10:16 *	clown notes that "Zoom on/off" does work.
 197 15:10:22 <API>	clown, no? 
 198 15:10:27 <API>	well it was working the last time
 199 15:10:30 <API>	anyway
 200 15:10:37 <API>	imho it is ok if they remove that
 201 15:10:42 <clown>	API, what is "it"?
 202 15:10:45 <API>	as they should be available via the univeersal settings
 203 15:10:53 <API>	clown, the zoon on/off
 204 15:11:03 <API>	although of course, you couldn't configure it from that panel
 205 15:11:07 <clown>	API, I was noting that the zoom was one that *did* work.
 206 15:11:15 <API>	ah
 207 15:11:16 <API>	ups
 208 15:11:18 <API>	sorry
 209 15:11:19 *	joanie mutters 'show off' to clown
 210 15:11:20 <joanie>	;-)
 211 15:11:28 <API>	and specifically
 212 15:11:31 <API>	about gnome-shell
 213 15:11:31 <clown>	Hee, hee.
 214 15:11:46 <joanie>	I don't object to the decision because Orca users don't use those dialogs anyway
 215 15:11:47 <API>	I committed this week a change on orca
 216 15:11:49 <clown>	but, most of those toggles doe nothing (based on about a week ago, building nightly).
 217 15:11:52 <API>	reviewed by joanie
 218 15:11:58 <API>	and also provided some patches on gnome-shell
 219 15:12:04 <API>	in order to have meaningful names
 220 15:12:09 <joanie>	thanks for doing that API
 221 15:12:16 <API>	on the alt+ta, ctr+alt+tab menus
 222 15:12:20 <API>	and the application search menu
 223 15:12:23 <API>	so
 224 15:12:28 <API>	any other gnome 3.0 update?
 225 15:12:33 <API>	any question about my rant?
 226 15:12:58 <mgorse>	People are working on release notes
 227 15:13:10 <mgorse>	ie, http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointNinetyone/ReleaseNotes
 228 15:13:27 <API>	uh yes, good point...
 229 15:13:28 <mgorse>	so we may want to edit that--I need to look at it and probably edit, too
 230 15:13:47 <API>	and btw, this reminds me the q4
 231 15:13:49 <API>	https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q4
 232 15:13:55 <joanie>	ugh
 233 15:13:58 <joanie>	yeah
 234 15:14:05 <API>	(yes, sorry, I know that Im one that didn't do his homework...)
 235 15:14:56 <joanie>	API I didn't do mine
 236 15:15:04 <joanie>	and most people haven't done theirs
 237 15:15:22 *	clown wonders when Q1/2011 reports are due.
 238 15:15:25 <fer>	dudes, I have to leave, so just for the record for the testing section, I've been working on setting up an automated env for running orca testsuite against a well defined env (currently jhbuild gnome3) + external binaries (for example ff4). The idea is to have a web page showing results, and maybe triggering test runs agains a selected binary
 239 15:15:26 <joanie>	the one good thing is that the board and other teams (beyond our team) hasn't done theirs either
 240 15:15:44 <fer>	(sorry about the non-on-topic spam)
 241 15:15:48 <joanie>	fer I have a page already
 242 15:15:50 <joanie>	two seconds
 243 15:15:51 <bnitz1>	awesome.
 244 15:16:21 <joanie>	okay 10 seconds
 245 15:16:23 <fer>	hehe
 246 15:16:25 <fer>	no problem
 247 15:16:25 <joanie>	live.gnome.org is being slow
 248 15:16:51 <joanie>	https://live.gnome.org/Orca/RegressionTestingData
 249 15:17:02 <joanie>	didn't come soon as hoped
 250 15:17:11 <joanie>	but that is where your results and data belong fer
 251 15:17:17 *	bnitz1 needs to contact fer and jhernandez 
 252 15:17:50 <fer>	joanie: great!
 253 15:17:58 <fer>	I'll keep you updated!
 254 15:18:03 <joanie>	super awesome
 255 15:18:06 <joanie>	thanks for doing it!
 256 15:18:07 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, ACK
 257 15:18:12 <API>	ok, so as you started the testing thing
 258 15:18:14 <bnitz1>	Thanks!
 259 15:18:16 <API>	lets move to that point
 260 15:18:23 <API>	5. Testing 
 261 15:18:27 <API>	so, ugys
 262 15:18:28 <API>	ups
 263 15:18:30 <API>	guys, go on
 264 15:19:02 *	bnitz1 looks to fill the hole in my test strategy, "what distro/image" becomes our rolling test environment?
 265 15:19:23 <joanie>	bnitz1: uh... opensuse?
 266 15:19:26 <joanie>	:-)
 267 15:19:43 <jhernandez>	:]
 268 15:19:43 <bnitz1>	Seems reasonable.
 269 15:19:47 <joanie>	because jhernandez is spinning a test distro
 270 15:19:58 <joanie>	which will be totally usable for you
 271 15:20:02 <joanie>	and the rest of the team
 272 15:20:08 <joanie>	right jhernandez?
 273 15:20:14 <jhernandez>	you're right!
 274 15:20:18 <jhernandez>	;)
 275 15:20:23 <joanie>	bnitz1: make sense?
 276 15:20:27 <joanie>	(hole filled?)
 277 15:20:37 <bnitz1>	I think so.
 278 15:21:08 <bnitz1>	 /me doesn't understand how suse build studio relates to jhbuild.  Would all work to get a test environment on SuSE studio have to be repeated for distros which use jhbuild?
 279 15:21:35 <joanie>	bnitz1: imagine a distro which (largely) has all the stuff you have from jhbuild
 280 15:21:37 <joanie>	BUT
 281 15:21:40 <joanie>	is "just a distro"
 282 15:21:52 <joanie>	so you don't need to jhbuild
 283 15:22:01 <joanie>	because it has the latest a11y bits
 284 15:22:06 <joanie>	and the latest webkitgtk
 285 15:22:15 <joanie>	and a pretty gosh-darned recent gtk3
 286 15:22:20 <joanie>	and gtk-demo
 287 15:22:21 <joanie>	etc. 
 288 15:22:30 <jhernandez>	that's it!
 289 15:22:33 <joanie>	this is what jhernandez is doing
 290 15:22:34 <bnitz1>	joanie:Would you be able to git update daily or even more frequently?
 291 15:22:45 <joanie>	and bnitz1 THIS is why jhernandez gave is list
 292 15:22:52 <joanie>	his list
 293 15:22:59 <API>	bnitz1, the idea of that distro is not that
 294 15:23:05 <API>	the purpose of that distro
 295 15:23:09 <API>	is testing a gnome 3 environment
 296 15:23:13 <API>	with packages and so on
 297 15:23:23 <API>	not a developement environment with jhbuild
 298 15:23:31 <API>	in order to be sure that users using a GNOME 3.0 distro
 299 15:23:36 <API>	will have a working user environment
 300 15:23:45 <API>	so
 301 15:23:53 <API>	jhernandez, will finish that distro
 302 15:23:58 <joanie>	bnitz1: so if you find that this distro is NOT updated enough, you can still jhbuild
 303 15:24:01 <API>	we will try to test that user environment
 304 15:24:05 <API>	and if it fails
 305 15:24:12 <joanie>	just like you do now
 306 15:24:21 <bnitz1>	joanie:I think I understand and since it's pretty darn newish, jhbuild shouldn't break as often.
 307 15:24:22 <API>	we should solve that
 308 15:24:27 <bnitz1>	Seems just what I was looking for.
 309 15:24:33 <joanie>	bnitz1: yup
 310 15:24:42 <bnitz1>	Well a Solaris version would've been better ;-)  but this will do!
 311 15:24:52 <joanie>	and bnitz1 as I was saying, in many cases you don't need a nightly
 312 15:24:59 <joanie>	you need something from the past week or two
 313 15:25:03 <joanie>	and this distro will have that
 314 15:25:14 <joanie>	and anything that is NOT 'new enough'
 315 15:25:15 <API>	I thought that solaris was dead
 316 15:25:20 <joanie>	needs to go on jhernandez's list
 317 15:25:33 <joanie>	like I put Orca and webkitgtk on his list
 318 15:25:49 <API>	this is a good point
 319 15:25:54 <joanie>	as for Solaris, bnitz1 I will say the following:
 320 15:25:56 <API>	that distro will include just releases
 321 15:26:05 <API>	not nightly builds
 322 15:26:05 <joanie>	Oracle chose to take it away from the community
 323 15:26:15 <joanie>	cripes
 324 15:26:19 <API>	because in the end, users will interact with releases
 325 15:26:26 <joanie>	API not nightly
 326 15:26:30 <joanie>	BUT in some cases from master
 327 15:26:42 <joanie>	*if* it is on jhernandez's list
 328 15:26:52 <joanie>	the list is the key folks
 329 15:27:05 <API>	ok
 330 15:27:06 <joanie>	if it ain't on the list, then it will be a release version
 331 15:27:18 <API>	well, anything else in this testing item?
 332 15:27:22 <joanie>	if it is on the list and jhernandez is able to build it and package it, it will be a master version
 333 15:27:24 *	bnitz1 nods at joanie.  And it makes life more difficult for developers on both sides of the firewall.
 334 15:28:16 *	bnitz1 looks back at the list to make sure we didn't miss anything.
 335 15:28:30 <API>	well, 2 minutes till the end
 336 15:28:39 <API>	so
 337 15:28:48 <API>	lets conclude this item
 338 15:28:53 <API>	miscellaneous time
 339 15:28:53 *	fer has quit (No route to host)
 340 15:29:09 <API>	some one needs to comment something meaningful and short?
 341 15:29:11 <bnitz1>	So gnome-shell and magnifier aren't on the a11y test distro list.  Are we assuming that'll be in jhernandez's distro.
 342 15:29:32 <API>	bnitz1, jhernandez distro is the a11y distro
 343 15:29:33 <jhernandez>	bnitz1, yes!
 344 15:30:01 <API>	bnitz1, I mean, jhernandez distro is the a11y test distro
 345 15:30:01 <bnitz1>	OK thanks.
 346 15:30:36 <joanie>	arguably it might be the accessible distro too
 347 15:30:42 <clown>	bnitz1, if the a11y distro is a GNOME 3.0 distro, the gnome-shell will be there.  as a consequence, so will gnome-shell magnifier.
 348 15:30:48 <joanie>	since the RT is removing some a11y options
 349 15:30:54 <joanie>	that potentially still work
 350 15:30:58 <joanie>	;-)
 351 15:31:26 <joanie>	Our motto can be: 'GNOME a11y: We do what the RT cannot'
 352 15:31:41 *	joanie steps down from her soapbox
 353 15:32:28 <API>	well, that options are being removed from a specific panel on a specific program
 354 15:32:29 *	bnitz1 applauds.
 355 15:32:34 <API>	a11y things will be still there
 356 15:32:37 <API>	anyway
 357 15:32:40 <API>	over time
 358 15:32:52 <API>	no miscellaneous time for anyone
 359 15:32:55 <API>	meeting over

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