Attachment '20110310_log.txt'
Download 1 14:35:49 <API> so lets start the meeting with the real people
2 14:36:00 <clown> "real"?
3 14:36:07 <API> 1. Status of BGO#638377 and BGO#638378
4 14:36:40 <fer> so, this is needed if we want proper delete text report on java and firefox
5 14:36:45 <API> fer mgorse I guess that this is your point
6 14:37:00 * API it is a pity not having li here
7 14:37:12 <mgorse> Yeah, I just wanted to know the status of those bugs
8 14:37:36 <mgorse> It doesn't look like the atk changes are in, and I've been waiting on them to do anything with the AT-SPI changes
9 14:37:43 <fer> another question is... as this is somehow an API addtion, we would need to request permission from release team
10 14:38:13 <fer> ok, so we need to get Li decission on this
11 14:38:53 <API> fer, hmm, because you want those changes to be there before GNOME 3.0?
12 14:39:11 <fer> well, if not, firefox 4 is not going to report the right deleted text
13 14:39:32 <fer> If I could, I'd put those changes on GNOME 3 and GNOME 2.32.x :)
14 14:39:54 <joanie> I would LOVE to see a new 2.32.x release for that
15 14:40:02 <joanie> Let's ask Li if we can
16 14:40:09 <fer> that would involve Atk and at-spi1 releases
17 14:40:17 <fer> Is li maintaining at-spi1?
18 14:40:23 <joanie> because the reality is a lot of users are not going to jump to 3.0
19 14:40:27 <joanie> I believe he is
20 14:40:41 <mgorse> He has been maintaining it in the past, anyway
21 14:40:46 <joanie> but if their distros can be convinced to update at-spi and atk
22 14:40:53 <joanie> then those users will benefit from the fix
23 14:41:07 * jhernandez (~jhernande@83.175.203.146) has joined #a11y-meeting
24 14:41:08 <API> well, taking into account that you are still solving the missing knots here
25 14:41:12 <API> I guess that the best is
26 14:41:12 <jhernandez> hi
27 14:41:18 <API> a) finish the work
28 14:41:24 <API> b) after then, check if it is possible
29 14:41:33 <API> to include that on gnome 3.0 2.32x
30 14:41:44 <joanie> who does a) fer?
31 14:41:50 <fer> yeah, I can do it
32 14:41:56 <joanie> sweet thanks
33 14:42:02 <fer> would would be nice to have reviews and so :)
34 14:42:18 <joanie> we'll ping Li on that. And I can test.
35 14:42:24 <mgorse> I'll look at the AT-SPI changes and review them, in any case; probably no harm in doing that
36 14:42:31 <fer> superb!
37 14:42:34 <joanie> there you go
38 14:42:50 <API> ok, sooo
39 14:42:59 <API> anything else about this first item on the agenda?
40 14:43:13 <fer> hum, patch for java bridge?
41 14:43:27 <fer> it would be nice to have clients taking adventage of that
42 14:43:39 <fer> we have the firefox patch, but as far as I know, there is no java bridge patch
43 14:44:00 <joanie> we could ping Ke.
44 14:44:20 <joanie> My understanding is that he left Oracle but is still around and hacking and maintaining the java atk wrapper
45 14:44:38 <API> and also ask him again for a update
46 14:44:41 <API> of JAW
47 14:44:48 * joanie nods
48 14:44:49 * API checking gnome 3.0 page
49 14:44:54 <API> Status: 24-Mar-2010
50 14:44:56 <API> hmm
51 14:44:59 <joanie> he's not been doing releases come to think of it.
52 14:45:04 <API> last update done on the last CSUN more or less
53 14:45:15 <joanie> well, that's true for other areas I believe
54 14:45:32 * joanie takes an action to ping Ke for a life update
55 14:45:42 <joanie> unless you want to do it API
56 14:46:07 <API> no its fine if you poke Ke
57 14:46:09 <API> after that
58 14:46:24 * API checking again
59 14:46:32 <API> Status: 24-Mar-2010 - needs testing with Orca and other assistive technologies as well as a mix of Java-based applications.
60 14:46:41 <API> you can ask him if we did that orca testing
61 14:47:06 <API> so, moving on? any other comment on this item?
62 14:47:09 <joanie> I had been using the JAW
63 14:47:11 <joanie> yes
64 14:47:23 <joanie> as I was saying, I had been using the JAW with Orca
65 14:47:36 <joanie> so I can update that status
66 14:47:42 <joanie> if that's the only missing update
67 14:48:15 <API> ah ok, good
68 14:48:17 <joanie> (done)
69 14:48:54 <API> ok, so next poing
70 14:48:55 <API> point
71 14:49:03 <API> 2. GNOME 3 Live image preview proposal
72 14:49:09 <API> jhernandez, ?
73 14:49:12 <jhernandez> yes
74 14:49:13 <API> I guess that this is your point
75 14:49:25 <jhernandez> API, you're right
76 14:49:30 <jhernandez> ;)
77 14:50:35 <jhernandez> first, i'll clarify that i wanted a comfortable testing environment, and i started to follow fcrozat's live images
78 14:51:00 <jhernandez> but, his image doesn't include all a11y work
79 14:51:21 <jhernandez> so, i'll decide to build my own live image for testing purposes
80 14:51:51 <jhernandez> i talked it with joanie and she thought it was a good idea
81 14:51:59 * joanie nods
82 14:52:14 <joanie> it simplifies life considerably for those of us wanting to test the very latest packages
83 14:52:15 <jhernandez> so, we made a list for our needs
84 14:52:29 <jhernandez> for this testing purposes
85 14:52:51 <jhernandez> shall i continue with the list?
86 14:52:58 <joanie> I think so
87 14:53:01 <jhernandez> ok
88 14:53:06 <joanie> because they are just our needs
89 14:53:11 <joanie> not the full team's.
90 14:53:13 <clown> jhernandez: is the list on a web page somewhere?
91 14:53:16 <joanie> full team should chime in
92 14:53:45 <jhernandez> no, this list was made by mail with joanie
93 14:53:57 <joanie> jhernandez: you and I can start a page
94 14:54:04 <joanie> but the list is short
95 14:54:08 <jhernandez> but, i'll move it to a wiki if you want
96 14:54:09 <joanie> at the moment
97 14:54:28 <jhernandez> so, the list, at this moment is:
98 14:54:52 <jhernandez> 1.- AT-SPI2 and friends
99 14:55:06 <jhernandez> 2.- Orca from master
100 14:55:19 <jhernandez> 3.- Accerciser
101 14:55:43 <jhernandez> 4.- Latest WebKitGtk
102 14:55:52 <jhernandez> 5.- gtk-demo for gtk3
103 14:56:03 <jhernandez> 6.- speechdispatcher 0.7 or greater
104 14:56:25 <jhernandez> 7.- Accessible installer if possible (yast sucks)
105 14:56:39 <jhernandez> 8.- Caribou
106 14:56:58 <jhernandez> some of these list items are done
107 14:57:27 <jhernandez> but i'll need to try my latest build
108 14:57:28 <bnitz1> jhernandez:That's great. I think this should go on a wiki.
109 14:57:41 <bnitz1> what distro do you build it on? (Does it matter?)
110 14:57:43 <mgorse> jhernandez: Are you pulling from git, or building from packages?
111 14:58:00 <fer> jhernandez: firefox 4 :)
112 14:58:08 <jhernandez> bnitz1, i'm building an openSuse 11.3, as fcrozat's
113 14:58:31 <API> jhernandez, in order to test it we could also use a USB image?
114 14:58:34 <jhernandez> mgorse, next step is that, building my own packages from masters
115 14:58:56 <jhernandez> fer, when i created the wiki, i'll added to the list
116 14:58:59 <bnitz1> jhernandez: Do you use jhbuild? If so have you defined a a11y testing specific moduleset?
117 14:59:04 <fer> thanks jhernandez!
118 14:59:10 <jhernandez> API, yes, it could be a USB image, yes
119 14:59:42 * bnitz1 has tried jhbuilding an accessible test environment on nearly every other development distro except OpenSuse 11.3
120 14:59:57 <jhernandez> bnitz1, i'm using the same workflow as fcrozat's, this is: opensuse builder service (for building packages) and susestudio (for building the distro)
121 15:00:17 <clown> "a" USB image? isn't it an image for each distro?
122 15:00:44 <clown> or is that overkill?
123 15:00:46 <jhernandez> clown, didn't understand
124 15:01:09 <clown> jhernandez: when I hear "image" I think live DVD image.
125 15:01:12 <joanie> clown: fred crozat's using susestudio
126 15:01:18 <joanie> http://gnome3.org/tryit.html
127 15:01:20 <jhernandez> yes
128 15:01:36 <API> clown, not required a DVD thing, this is the reason I asked for the USB
129 15:01:38 <clown> joanie, thanks.
130 15:01:43 <API> in that way we could test the distro
131 15:01:45 <jhernandez> my distro is the same as crozat's but with our needs
132 15:01:51 <API> without removing our environment
133 15:02:02 <clown> API, understood. I'm using the word DVD loosely as in DVD *image*
134 15:02:15 <joanie> because crozat's isn't the latest a11y stuff
135 15:02:19 <clown> so, yes, you could build the "DVD" on a USB stick.
136 15:02:46 <jhernandez> API, you can test it by running in a virtual machine or by starting you machine with an USB live
137 15:03:02 <joanie> but the point clown (I think) is: NO, there will NOT be an image per distro.
138 15:03:09 <joanie> beacuse we're piggy backing off of fred's work
139 15:03:14 <joanie> and fred is using opensuse
140 15:03:16 <API> well, a virtual machine can be slow.
141 15:03:19 <joanie> via susestudio
142 15:03:36 <clown> joanie: just to clarify then: there is one distro tested? namely, susestudio?
143 15:03:50 <joanie> I didn't say that
144 15:04:03 <joanie> fedora and everyone else shipping gnome 3 (okay, maybe that's just fedora)
145 15:04:04 <jhernandez> clown, susestudio is a service for building your own distros
146 15:04:05 <joanie> are testing
147 15:04:19 <joanie> http://susestudio.com/
148 15:04:32 <joanie> hmm maybe not
149 15:04:34 * clown slowly, clown understands.
150 15:04:41 <jhernandez> ok
151 15:04:45 <jhernandez> more questions?
152 15:04:54 <jhernandez> opinions?
153 15:04:55 <jhernandez> ideas?
154 15:04:57 <joanie> clown: no worries
155 15:05:02 <joanie> but do you understand?
156 15:05:11 <mgorse> jhernandez: Thanks for doing this. Let everyone know when you have something ready to test.
157 15:05:13 <joanie> i.e. we're just going the path of least resistence
158 15:05:36 <API> well, lets try to summary and get actions
159 15:05:39 <API> summary:
160 15:05:48 <jhernandez> mgorse, of course, i'm hoping in have a release this week
161 15:05:48 <clown> joanie: not completely. I just read "To run the live image, reboot your computer with the USB stick attached" on the tryit site. Well, some distro has to boot at that point, no?
162 15:05:55 <jhernandez> API, ok
163 15:05:59 <API> 1) jhernandez is working on a gnome 3.0 environment
164 15:06:00 <API> actions:
165 15:06:12 <API> 1) he will create a wiki page with the packages required
166 15:06:22 <API> 2) once it is created he will provide it in a common place
167 15:06:30 <API> 3) people should try to book some time to test it
168 15:06:38 <API> Im missing something?
169 15:06:48 <jhernandez> for me it's ok
170 15:07:38 <API> ok, so lets conclude that this point is finished
171 15:07:42 * API checking agenda
172 15:07:45 <jhernandez> ok
173 15:07:49 <API> 3. GNOME 3 Updates
174 15:07:56 <API> well, from my side
175 15:08:03 <API> or in general
176 15:08:09 <API> recently owen taylor send a mail
177 15:08:11 <API> titled
178 15:08:26 <API> "Possible UI freeze break: acccessibility menu in panel"
179 15:08:42 <API> right now gnome-shell has a accessibility menu on panel
180 15:08:51 <API> but not all the things were working
181 15:08:56 <API> or "integrated" with the shell
182 15:09:16 <API> right now, it seems that the final conclusion is that they will maintain most of the things
183 15:09:19 <API> on the panel
184 15:09:27 <API> and will try to fix them
185 15:09:31 <API> but removing
186 15:09:42 <API> the things that depends on the "accessibility toolkit"
187 15:09:44 <fer> (matthias is my new hero, btw)
188 15:09:44 <API> that is
189 15:09:45 <API> at-spi2
190 15:09:55 <joanie> fer: mine too!
191 15:09:56 <API> as it requires a logout and so on
192 15:09:57 <joanie> omg
193 15:09:58 <API> that means
194 15:09:58 * clown can verify that not many of those a11y toggles do anything.
195 15:10:09 <API> remove "screen reader" and on screen keyboard
196 15:10:16 * clown notes that "Zoom on/off" does work.
197 15:10:22 <API> clown, no?
198 15:10:27 <API> well it was working the last time
199 15:10:30 <API> anyway
200 15:10:37 <API> imho it is ok if they remove that
201 15:10:42 <clown> API, what is "it"?
202 15:10:45 <API> as they should be available via the univeersal settings
203 15:10:53 <API> clown, the zoon on/off
204 15:11:03 <API> although of course, you couldn't configure it from that panel
205 15:11:07 <clown> API, I was noting that the zoom was one that *did* work.
206 15:11:15 <API> ah
207 15:11:16 <API> ups
208 15:11:18 <API> sorry
209 15:11:19 * joanie mutters 'show off' to clown
210 15:11:20 <joanie> ;-)
211 15:11:28 <API> and specifically
212 15:11:31 <API> about gnome-shell
213 15:11:31 <clown> Hee, hee.
214 15:11:46 <joanie> I don't object to the decision because Orca users don't use those dialogs anyway
215 15:11:47 <API> I committed this week a change on orca
216 15:11:49 <clown> but, most of those toggles doe nothing (based on about a week ago, building nightly).
217 15:11:52 <API> reviewed by joanie
218 15:11:58 <API> and also provided some patches on gnome-shell
219 15:12:04 <API> in order to have meaningful names
220 15:12:09 <joanie> thanks for doing that API
221 15:12:16 <API> on the alt+ta, ctr+alt+tab menus
222 15:12:20 <API> and the application search menu
223 15:12:23 <API> so
224 15:12:28 <API> any other gnome 3.0 update?
225 15:12:33 <API> any question about my rant?
226 15:12:58 <mgorse> People are working on release notes
227 15:13:10 <mgorse> ie, http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointNinetyone/ReleaseNotes
228 15:13:27 <API> uh yes, good point...
229 15:13:28 <mgorse> so we may want to edit that--I need to look at it and probably edit, too
230 15:13:47 <API> and btw, this reminds me the q4
231 15:13:49 <API> https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q4
232 15:13:55 <joanie> ugh
233 15:13:58 <joanie> yeah
234 15:14:05 <API> (yes, sorry, I know that Im one that didn't do his homework...)
235 15:14:56 <joanie> API I didn't do mine
236 15:15:04 <joanie> and most people haven't done theirs
237 15:15:22 * clown wonders when Q1/2011 reports are due.
238 15:15:25 <fer> dudes, I have to leave, so just for the record for the testing section, I've been working on setting up an automated env for running orca testsuite against a well defined env (currently jhbuild gnome3) + external binaries (for example ff4). The idea is to have a web page showing results, and maybe triggering test runs agains a selected binary
239 15:15:26 <joanie> the one good thing is that the board and other teams (beyond our team) hasn't done theirs either
240 15:15:44 <fer> (sorry about the non-on-topic spam)
241 15:15:48 <joanie> fer I have a page already
242 15:15:50 <joanie> two seconds
243 15:15:51 <bnitz1> awesome.
244 15:16:21 <joanie> okay 10 seconds
245 15:16:23 <fer> hehe
246 15:16:25 <fer> no problem
247 15:16:25 <joanie> live.gnome.org is being slow
248 15:16:51 <joanie> https://live.gnome.org/Orca/RegressionTestingData
249 15:17:02 <joanie> didn't come soon as hoped
250 15:17:11 <joanie> but that is where your results and data belong fer
251 15:17:17 * bnitz1 needs to contact fer and jhernandez
252 15:17:50 <fer> joanie: great!
253 15:17:58 <fer> I'll keep you updated!
254 15:18:03 <joanie> super awesome
255 15:18:06 <joanie> thanks for doing it!
256 15:18:07 <jhernandez> bnitz1, ACK
257 15:18:12 <API> ok, so as you started the testing thing
258 15:18:14 <bnitz1> Thanks!
259 15:18:16 <API> lets move to that point
260 15:18:23 <API> 5. Testing
261 15:18:27 <API> so, ugys
262 15:18:28 <API> ups
263 15:18:30 <API> guys, go on
264 15:19:02 * bnitz1 looks to fill the hole in my test strategy, "what distro/image" becomes our rolling test environment?
265 15:19:23 <joanie> bnitz1: uh... opensuse?
266 15:19:26 <joanie> :-)
267 15:19:43 <jhernandez> :]
268 15:19:43 <bnitz1> Seems reasonable.
269 15:19:47 <joanie> because jhernandez is spinning a test distro
270 15:19:58 <joanie> which will be totally usable for you
271 15:20:02 <joanie> and the rest of the team
272 15:20:08 <joanie> right jhernandez?
273 15:20:14 <jhernandez> you're right!
274 15:20:18 <jhernandez> ;)
275 15:20:23 <joanie> bnitz1: make sense?
276 15:20:27 <joanie> (hole filled?)
277 15:20:37 <bnitz1> I think so.
278 15:21:08 <bnitz1> /me doesn't understand how suse build studio relates to jhbuild. Would all work to get a test environment on SuSE studio have to be repeated for distros which use jhbuild?
279 15:21:35 <joanie> bnitz1: imagine a distro which (largely) has all the stuff you have from jhbuild
280 15:21:37 <joanie> BUT
281 15:21:40 <joanie> is "just a distro"
282 15:21:52 <joanie> so you don't need to jhbuild
283 15:22:01 <joanie> because it has the latest a11y bits
284 15:22:06 <joanie> and the latest webkitgtk
285 15:22:15 <joanie> and a pretty gosh-darned recent gtk3
286 15:22:20 <joanie> and gtk-demo
287 15:22:21 <joanie> etc.
288 15:22:30 <jhernandez> that's it!
289 15:22:33 <joanie> this is what jhernandez is doing
290 15:22:34 <bnitz1> joanie:Would you be able to git update daily or even more frequently?
291 15:22:45 <joanie> and bnitz1 THIS is why jhernandez gave is list
292 15:22:52 <joanie> his list
293 15:22:59 <API> bnitz1, the idea of that distro is not that
294 15:23:05 <API> the purpose of that distro
295 15:23:09 <API> is testing a gnome 3 environment
296 15:23:13 <API> with packages and so on
297 15:23:23 <API> not a developement environment with jhbuild
298 15:23:31 <API> in order to be sure that users using a GNOME 3.0 distro
299 15:23:36 <API> will have a working user environment
300 15:23:45 <API> so
301 15:23:53 <API> jhernandez, will finish that distro
302 15:23:58 <joanie> bnitz1: so if you find that this distro is NOT updated enough, you can still jhbuild
303 15:24:01 <API> we will try to test that user environment
304 15:24:05 <API> and if it fails
305 15:24:12 <joanie> just like you do now
306 15:24:21 <bnitz1> joanie:I think I understand and since it's pretty darn newish, jhbuild shouldn't break as often.
307 15:24:22 <API> we should solve that
308 15:24:27 <bnitz1> Seems just what I was looking for.
309 15:24:33 <joanie> bnitz1: yup
310 15:24:42 <bnitz1> Well a Solaris version would've been better ;-) but this will do!
311 15:24:52 <joanie> and bnitz1 as I was saying, in many cases you don't need a nightly
312 15:24:59 <joanie> you need something from the past week or two
313 15:25:03 <joanie> and this distro will have that
314 15:25:14 <joanie> and anything that is NOT 'new enough'
315 15:25:15 <API> I thought that solaris was dead
316 15:25:20 <joanie> needs to go on jhernandez's list
317 15:25:33 <joanie> like I put Orca and webkitgtk on his list
318 15:25:49 <API> this is a good point
319 15:25:54 <joanie> as for Solaris, bnitz1 I will say the following:
320 15:25:56 <API> that distro will include just releases
321 15:26:05 <API> not nightly builds
322 15:26:05 <joanie> Oracle chose to take it away from the community
323 15:26:15 <joanie> cripes
324 15:26:19 <API> because in the end, users will interact with releases
325 15:26:26 <joanie> API not nightly
326 15:26:30 <joanie> BUT in some cases from master
327 15:26:42 <joanie> *if* it is on jhernandez's list
328 15:26:52 <joanie> the list is the key folks
329 15:27:05 <API> ok
330 15:27:06 <joanie> if it ain't on the list, then it will be a release version
331 15:27:18 <API> well, anything else in this testing item?
332 15:27:22 <joanie> if it is on the list and jhernandez is able to build it and package it, it will be a master version
333 15:27:24 * bnitz1 nods at joanie. And it makes life more difficult for developers on both sides of the firewall.
334 15:28:16 * bnitz1 looks back at the list to make sure we didn't miss anything.
335 15:28:30 <API> well, 2 minutes till the end
336 15:28:39 <API> so
337 15:28:48 <API> lets conclude this item
338 15:28:53 <API> miscellaneous time
339 15:28:53 * fer has quit (No route to host)
340 15:29:09 <API> some one needs to comment something meaningful and short?
341 15:29:11 <bnitz1> So gnome-shell and magnifier aren't on the a11y test distro list. Are we assuming that'll be in jhernandez's distro.
342 15:29:32 <API> bnitz1, jhernandez distro is the a11y distro
343 15:29:33 <jhernandez> bnitz1, yes!
344 15:30:01 <API> bnitz1, I mean, jhernandez distro is the a11y test distro
345 15:30:01 <bnitz1> OK thanks.
346 15:30:36 <joanie> arguably it might be the accessible distro too
347 15:30:42 <clown> bnitz1, if the a11y distro is a GNOME 3.0 distro, the gnome-shell will be there. as a consequence, so will gnome-shell magnifier.
348 15:30:48 <joanie> since the RT is removing some a11y options
349 15:30:54 <joanie> that potentially still work
350 15:30:58 <joanie> ;-)
351 15:31:26 <joanie> Our motto can be: 'GNOME a11y: We do what the RT cannot'
352 15:31:41 * joanie steps down from her soapbox
353 15:32:28 <API> well, that options are being removed from a specific panel on a specific program
354 15:32:29 * bnitz1 applauds.
355 15:32:34 <API> a11y things will be still there
356 15:32:37 <API> anyway
357 15:32:40 <API> over time
358 15:32:52 <API> no miscellaneous time for anyone
359 15:32:55 <API> meeting over
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