Attachment '20110303_log.txt'

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   1 14:29:26 *       Now talking on #a11y-meeting
   2 14:30:27 <API>   wow, 3 people ...
   3 14:30:31 <API>   things are improving
   4 14:31:38 *       bnitz (~bn128650@gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com) has joined #a11y-meeting
   5 14:32:29 <API>   clown, can you give the the op here?
   6 14:32:51 <clown> good morning all
   7 14:33:18 <clown> API, I'm baffled as to how I got to be channel master -- what's the command to make others so.
   8 14:33:19 <clown> ?
   9 14:33:32 *       li_ (~chatzilla@115.170.118.86) has joined #a11y-meeting
  10 14:33:42 <API>   clown, well, you are the master because I guess that you was the first to arrive to the channel ;)
  11 14:33:47 <API>   about how give me the op ...
  12 14:34:00 <clown> *whistles*
  13 14:34:03 <API>   well I guess that this depends on any client
  14 14:34:10 <API>   I mean
  15 14:34:16 <API>   on the specific irc client
  16 14:34:16 <tbsaunde>      clown:  your an op because you were the first to enter an empty channel (lol irc)
  17 14:34:27 *       clown I'm number one!
  18 14:34:45 *       clown looking up various irc / commands.
  19 14:35:19 <bnitz> I don't know anyone else needs channel operator status, do we?
  20 14:36:15 <API>   well, I was just wanted the op to change the channel title 
  21 14:36:20 <API>   or header or whatever
  22 14:36:21 <API>   ;)
  23 14:36:32 <API>   but it is not really important
  24 14:36:44 <API>   anyway, clown as you are the chief today, please go
  25 14:36:47 <API>   on
  26 14:36:51 <API>   and lead the meeting ;)
  27 14:36:57 *       danigm (~danigm@ks24874.kimsufi.com) has joined #a11y-meeting
  28 14:37:03 <clown> okay...
  29 14:37:08 *       clown looks up agenda
  30 14:37:15 <clown> http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
  31 14:37:30 <clown> agenda item one is:  Testing, testing, testing! 
  32 14:37:38 <clown> testing of:
  33 14:37:43 <clown> AT-SPI2
  34 14:37:47 <clown> GNOME Shell,
  35 14:37:53 <clown> new treeview, and
  36 14:38:00 <clown> Gtk3 themes.
  37 14:38:06 *       clown the floor is open.
  38 14:38:32 <API>   yes, well
  39 14:38:45 <API>   joanie and me were talking
  40 14:38:49 <API>   about the theme thing yesterday
  41 14:39:01 <API>   as Matthias Clasen send a mail about it
  42 14:39:08 <API>   saying that they update that
  43 14:39:15 <API>   so, in our "we need to test things"
  44 14:39:40 <API>   item
  45 14:39:49 <API>   so about the themes
  46 14:39:53 <API>   we need to check
  47 14:40:05 <API>   1. if the current a11y theme are working fine
  48 14:40:13 <API>   and, something that I didn't know
  49 14:40:19 <API>   joanie thinks that some
  50 14:40:25 <API>   of the current a11y themes 
  51 14:40:28 <API>   wel
  52 14:40:31 <API>   well
  53 14:40:39 <API>   that "are not good enough"
  54 14:40:39 <API>   ;)
  55 14:40:59 <API>   in theory one of the reason of this new theme 
  56 14:41:05 <API>   engine
  57 14:41:19 <API>   is having a more flexible theming
  58 14:41:30 <API>   being easier to create a new one, and more options on it
  59 14:41:37 <API>   so the other thing to test is
  60 14:41:47 <API>   2. Can we improve the a11y themes?
  61 14:42:29 <API>   well
  62 14:42:36 <API>   opinions, questions?
  63 14:43:09 <li_>   do we have bugs for the "not good enough"?
  64 14:43:33 <bnitz> I was trying to think about how any theme tests can be automatable and it sounds like "not good enough" is pretty far from the automatable realm.
  65 14:43:56 <API>   li_, well this was a informal chatting with joanie
  66 14:44:01 <API>   she has that feeling
  67 14:44:07 <API>   bnitz, yes it is hard to test it
  68 14:44:16 <API>   mainly because we are talking about themes
  69 14:44:23 <API>   like high contrast inverse
  70 14:44:35 <API>   and we just want to test that the people that need those themes
  71 14:44:44 <API>   are able to properly identify the elements on the screen
  72 14:44:53 *       korn (~Peter_Kor@75-25-140-220.lightspeed.okldca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #a11y-meeting
  73 14:44:54 <API>   it is not just about "not good enough"
  74 14:44:59 <bnitz> It _may_ be possible to determine whether a component honors themes at all.  In the past this was a common problem
  75 14:45:12 <API>   bnitz, well yes
  76 14:45:25 <API>   but this is just test that the current theme is running
  77 14:45:29 <API>   and the elements are using it
  78 14:45:36 <API>   not if the theme are really 
  79 14:45:50 <API>   fulfilling his
  80 14:45:51 <API>   purpose
  81 14:46:04 <API>   ah mon, I will check that informal chatting
  82 14:46:26 <bnitz> even the "does this component honor theme" test is quite a bit of work, isolating the component's bitmap, snapshot, change theme, snapshot, compare.  Unless anyone knows of a better way.
  83 14:47:12 <korn>  Brian - it would be useful to simply see if the icon changed when the theme changed.
  84 14:47:17 <API>   bnitz, yes it seems a lot of work
  85 14:47:20 <API>   and this is the reason
  86 14:47:24 <API>   IMHO
  87 14:47:31 <API>   it is required manual testing
  88 14:48:00 <API>   anyway, about this "not good enough" thing
  89 14:48:05 <API>   as this is really subjective
  90 14:48:07 <bnitz> I think peter's suggestion to see if the icon changed is possible.
  91 14:48:12 <API>   what it is true is that
  92 14:48:23 <API>   it would be good to check if creating themes are easier now
  93 14:48:31 *       clown has quit (Remote closed the connection)
  94 14:48:33 <API>   AFAIR, create a theme on gtk2 was 
  95 14:48:37 <API>   complex
  96 14:48:44 <API>   and undocumented
  97 14:48:56 *       joanie (~jd@c-98-217-239-60.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #a11y-meeting
  98 14:49:01 <API>   hi joanie 
  99 14:49:04 <li_>   hi joanie
 100 14:49:12 <joanie>        API sorry, I'm *really* sick
 101 14:49:20 <API>   no problem, I already supposed that
 102 14:49:31 <API>   anyway, we were still on the first point
 103 14:49:33 <API>   testing
 104 14:49:43 <API>   and talking about  theme thing
 105 14:49:58 <API>   in summary, the actions I proposed was:
 106 14:50:00 <API>   <API> 1. if the current a11y theme are working fine
 107 14:50:06 <API>   <API> 2. Can we improve the a11y themes?
 108 14:50:18 <API>   2 in relation that in theory the new theme engine is more flexible and easy to use
 109 14:50:23 <API>   <API> AFAIR, create a theme on gtk2 was 
 110 14:50:23 <API>   <API> complex
 111 14:50:23 <API>   <API> and undocumented
 112 14:50:35 *       joanie nods
 113 14:50:37 <API>   and we were talking about it about 20 minutes
 114 14:50:38 <API>   so
 115 14:50:44 <joanie>        :-)
 116 14:50:47 <API>   any other question or comments before moving on?
 117 14:50:55 *       clown (~clown@205.211.169.2) has joined #a11y-meeting
 118 14:52:05 <bnitz> API:Anything else within testing?  
 119 14:52:15 <API>   bnitz, well just in case
 120 14:52:17 *       clown is back (our uplink went down).
 121 14:52:21 <API>   this point is about testing
 122 14:52:24 <API>   but it is more related
 123 14:52:26 <API>   to 
 124 14:52:27 <bnitz> Has anyone looked at the mago-based accessibility tests I have in launchpad?
 125 14:52:29 <API>   "people
 126 14:52:40 <API>   take a gnome 3 distribution and test manually if a11y is working"
 127 14:52:52 <API>   bnitz, well, have you announced that you have that?
 128 14:53:03 <API>   because I don't remember any mail on gnome-accessibility-devel about it
 129 14:53:28 <bnitz> API: Maybe not.  Sorry I should send it to the list.
 130 14:53:47 <API>   well, just to know
 131 14:53:50 *       bnitz takes action to send announcement
 132 14:54:05 <API>   what this accessibility test includes?
 133 14:54:12 <bnitz> I mentioned here a while back because it seems a few individuals were interested.
 134 14:54:15 <API>   the desktop? any specific application? gnome2? gnome3?
 135 14:54:47 <bnitz> API: All of the validator plugin tests within accerciser plus a few other test primitives, focus traversal.
 136 14:55:48 <API>   ok, so this mago-based accessibility tests are supposed to be used within accerciser?
 137 14:55:55 <bnitz> API: These can be event triggered.  (e.g. window:open event triggers accerciser tests, or subset of these on window's children)
 138 14:56:36 <bnitz> API:So they're meant to add accessibility test functionality to existing mago based application tests as well as allow accessibility specific tests of the entire desktop.
 139 14:57:02 <bnitz> API:No they aren't used within accerciser, they are compatible with accerciser plugins though.
 140 14:57:15 <API>   bnitz, well I was thinking more about how to install it
 141 14:57:15 <bnitz> Specifically the validator plugins.
 142 14:57:25 <API>   it is documented somehow on that launchpad branch?
 143 14:57:34 <API>   btw, could you write here the specific link?
 144 14:57:38 <bnitz> API:There is still a manual step.  No I have to improve docs. 
 145 14:57:39 <API>   for minutes sake
 146 14:57:45 <bnitz> https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-nitz/+junk/a11ytesting
 147 14:58:01 <API>   bnitz, ok thanks
 148 14:58:44 <API>   bnitz, so in brief, what it is the best way to test those scripts?
 149 14:58:48 <bnitz> Need to think about whether this and its dependencies (mago+ldtp) need to go into GNOME git in order to be used or whether launchpads RCS bazaar is OK
 150 14:59:51 *       mgorse (mgorse@SDF.ORG) has joined #a11y-meeting
 151 14:59:52 <bnitz> API:They are meant to be building blocks but there are some example tests included.  
 152 14:59:56 <API>   well, right now the more important is being able to test it
 153 15:00:15 <API>   "where is the best place to have them" is secondary
 154 15:00:26 <API>   well, bnitz 
 155 15:00:33 <bnitz> API:I'm just about to move my build and test environment to 3.0 (which wasn't yet possible on my OS) so I should be able to tell you what works and what doesn't there.
 156 15:00:40 <API>   sincerely, 
 157 15:00:48 <API>   I think that it would be really valuable a guide
 158 15:00:53 <API>   although it can be simple
 159 15:01:00 <API>   something like a README or a INSTALL
 160 15:01:07 <API>   on the repository
 161 15:01:17 <API>   in order to know how to test those scripts
 162 15:01:32 *       bnitz takes an action to doc automated accessibility test README and INSTALL.
 163 15:01:42 <API>   bnitz, ok thanks
 164 15:01:47 <API>   well, lets summarize this point
 165 15:01:50 <API>   1. Testing
 166 15:01:57 <API>   in fact
 167 15:02:03 <API>   1. Testing GNOME 3.0 status
 168 15:02:09 <API>   a) a new item was added: themes
 169 15:02:20 <API>   a.1) check if current a11y themes are working 
 170 15:02:40 <API>   a.2) (secondary) check if it is true that create and improve themes are easier now
 171 15:02:46 <API>   2. Automatic testing
 172 15:02:59 <API>   bnitz tests here: https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-nitz/+junk/a11ytesting
 173 15:03:06 <API>   it would be good to check them
 174 15:03:18 <API>   bnitz will work on a guide to newcomers 
 175 15:03:25 <API>   anything else or can we move?
 176 15:05:28 <API>   its the sound... of the silence
 177 15:05:31 <API>   ok, lets move
 178 15:05:42 <API>   I will skip 2
 179 15:05:45 <API>   and first this:
 180 15:05:49 <API>   3. Atk Hackfest updates 
 181 15:05:51 <API>   well,
 182 15:06:04 <API>   just to say that I have officially announced it
 183 15:06:08 <API>   we have a place
 184 15:06:12 <API>   (coruña, spain)
 185 15:06:16 <API>   and we have date
 186 15:06:32 <API>   people willing to come
 187 15:06:37 <API>   please add themselves here
 188 15:06:39 <joanie>        and a hotel
 189 15:06:42 <API>   http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011
 190 15:06:52 <API>   well yes, a recommended hotel
 191 15:06:53 <joanie>        that is reasonably priced :-)
 192 15:06:57 <API>   it is near of the office
 193 15:07:01 <API>   and yes ^^
 194 15:07:06 <API>   about that
 195 15:07:15 <API>   I added the prices of this hotel on the hackfest page
 196 15:07:15 <joanie>        API I think we should add a link to the hotel on the page
 197 15:07:47 <API>   joanie, hmm I though that we had one
 198 15:07:49 *       API chekcing
 199 15:07:59 <API>   there are a google maps link
 200 15:08:07 <API>   that includes his official page link
 201 15:08:08 <joanie>        I mean to book reservations
 202 15:08:13 <joanie>        does it
 203 15:08:16 *       joanie shuts up
 204 15:08:18 <joanie>        sorry
 205 15:08:59 <API>   so people that requires foundation fund
 206 15:09:07 <API>   should ask the travel committee as usual
 207 15:09:08 <li_>   do we book the hotel by ourself or gnome does it for us?
 208 15:09:30 <API>   li_, hmm, a good question
 209 15:09:51 <API>   I will ask here what people did with the gtk hackfest
 210 15:09:57 <API>   as we used the same place and the same hotel
 211 15:10:21 <API>   so action:
 212 15:10:38 <API>   resolv li_ question "do we book the hotel by ourself or gnome does it for us?"
 213 15:10:47 <API>   ok, any other question, doubt or comment?
 214 15:14:32 <API>   well, it seems that no, no questions ;)
 215 15:14:48 <API>   well, we have a GNOME 3 updates
 216 15:14:58 <API>   but after all, we covered that with the testing thing
 217 15:15:01 <API>   ah
 218 15:15:06 <API>   well just a question
 219 15:15:22 <API>   li_, are you still working on the "move gail to gtk" ?
 220 15:15:34 <li_>   yes, just have a commit today
 221 15:16:26 <API>   there is something similar to a deadline or something?
 222 15:16:47 <li_>   know we don't
 223 15:16:47 <API>   the plan is have this thinking on GNOME 3, or it is something not related?
 224 15:17:57 <li_>   I think maybe we can finish this before GNOME3
 225 15:18:17 <mgorse>        li_: How much has been done already?
 226 15:18:42 <li_>   I think 14 widgets has been moved
 227 15:18:48 <API>   li_, really? you are a really optimistic guy ;)
 228 15:18:52 <API>   well, forgetting jokes
 229 15:18:55 <li_>   although some complex widgets are left
 230 15:18:57 <API>   this seems a lot of work
 231 15:19:06 <API>   taking into account the little time remaining
 232 15:19:33 <li_>   I mean we can move all the widgets before gnome3
 233 15:19:47 <li_>   but improve the code is a long process
 234 15:20:30 <li_>   just realize that everything will be freezed then
 235 15:20:51 <API>   li_, ah ok
 236 15:20:53 <API>   yes
 237 15:21:12 <li_>   so maybe we can not merge the branch to master...
 238 15:21:35 <API>   yeah, it makes sense
 239 15:21:44 <API>   ok li_ thanks for the update
 240 15:21:44 <li_>   anyway, the work goes well for now
 241 15:21:59 <API>   well, less that 10 minutes to go, taking into account how popular is this point
 242 15:22:07 <API>   lets start with the "miscellaneous time"
 243 15:22:24 <API>   anything else to comment not included on the agenda?
 244 15:26:29 *       jhernandez (~androirc@212.166.237.51) has joined #a11y-meeting
 245 15:27:45 <API>   funny, when we have 5 minutes for miscellaneous time, it requires 15 minutes
 246 15:27:52 <API>   when we have almost 10 
 247 15:27:58 <API>   nobody has something to say
 248 15:27:59 <API>   ;)
 249 15:28:02 <joanie>        lol
 250 15:28:04 <API>   well, 
 251 15:28:19 <clown> well, now we have 2 ...
 252 15:28:20 <API>   meeting over
 253 15:28:43 <API>   no we haven't, people already had the opportunity to talk, they lost it ;)
 254 15:28:43 *       clown thanks the chair(s) for chairing.
 255 15:28:45 <API>   meeting over
 256 15:28:47 <API>   thatnks
 257 15:28:49 <API>   argh
 258 15:28:52 <API>   thanks to be here

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