14:29:26 * Now talking on #a11y-meeting 14:30:27 wow, 3 people ... 14:30:31 things are improving 14:31:38 * bnitz (~bn128650@gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com) has joined #a11y-meeting 14:32:29 clown, can you give the the op here? 14:32:51 good morning all 14:33:18 API, I'm baffled as to how I got to be channel master -- what's the command to make others so. 14:33:19 ? 14:33:32 * li_ (~chatzilla@115.170.118.86) has joined #a11y-meeting 14:33:42 clown, well, you are the master because I guess that you was the first to arrive to the channel ;) 14:33:47 about how give me the op ... 14:34:00 *whistles* 14:34:03 well I guess that this depends on any client 14:34:10 I mean 14:34:16 on the specific irc client 14:34:16 clown: your an op because you were the first to enter an empty channel (lol irc) 14:34:27 * clown I'm number one! 14:34:45 * clown looking up various irc / commands. 14:35:19 I don't know anyone else needs channel operator status, do we? 14:36:15 well, I was just wanted the op to change the channel title 14:36:20 or header or whatever 14:36:21 ;) 14:36:32 but it is not really important 14:36:44 anyway, clown as you are the chief today, please go 14:36:47 on 14:36:51 and lead the meeting ;) 14:36:57 * danigm (~danigm@ks24874.kimsufi.com) has joined #a11y-meeting 14:37:03 okay... 14:37:08 * clown looks up agenda 14:37:15 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings 14:37:30 agenda item one is: Testing, testing, testing! 14:37:38 testing of: 14:37:43 AT-SPI2 14:37:47 GNOME Shell, 14:37:53 new treeview, and 14:38:00 Gtk3 themes. 14:38:06 * clown the floor is open. 14:38:32 yes, well 14:38:45 joanie and me were talking 14:38:49 about the theme thing yesterday 14:39:01 as Matthias Clasen send a mail about it 14:39:08 saying that they update that 14:39:15 so, in our "we need to test things" 14:39:40 item 14:39:49 so about the themes 14:39:53 we need to check 14:40:05 1. if the current a11y theme are working fine 14:40:13 and, something that I didn't know 14:40:19 joanie thinks that some 14:40:25 of the current a11y themes 14:40:28 wel 14:40:31 well 14:40:39 that "are not good enough" 14:40:39 ;) 14:40:59 in theory one of the reason of this new theme 14:41:05 engine 14:41:19 is having a more flexible theming 14:41:30 being easier to create a new one, and more options on it 14:41:37 so the other thing to test is 14:41:47 2. Can we improve the a11y themes? 14:42:29 well 14:42:36 opinions, questions? 14:43:09 do we have bugs for the "not good enough"? 14:43:33 I was trying to think about how any theme tests can be automatable and it sounds like "not good enough" is pretty far from the automatable realm. 14:43:56 li_, well this was a informal chatting with joanie 14:44:01 she has that feeling 14:44:07 bnitz, yes it is hard to test it 14:44:16 mainly because we are talking about themes 14:44:23 like high contrast inverse 14:44:35 and we just want to test that the people that need those themes 14:44:44 are able to properly identify the elements on the screen 14:44:53 * korn (~Peter_Kor@75-25-140-220.lightspeed.okldca.sbcglobal.net) has joined #a11y-meeting 14:44:54 it is not just about "not good enough" 14:44:59 It _may_ be possible to determine whether a component honors themes at all. In the past this was a common problem 14:45:12 bnitz, well yes 14:45:25 but this is just test that the current theme is running 14:45:29 and the elements are using it 14:45:36 not if the theme are really 14:45:50 fulfilling his 14:45:51 purpose 14:46:04 ah mon, I will check that informal chatting 14:46:26 even the "does this component honor theme" test is quite a bit of work, isolating the component's bitmap, snapshot, change theme, snapshot, compare. Unless anyone knows of a better way. 14:47:12 Brian - it would be useful to simply see if the icon changed when the theme changed. 14:47:17 bnitz, yes it seems a lot of work 14:47:20 and this is the reason 14:47:24 IMHO 14:47:31 it is required manual testing 14:48:00 anyway, about this "not good enough" thing 14:48:05 as this is really subjective 14:48:07 I think peter's suggestion to see if the icon changed is possible. 14:48:12 what it is true is that 14:48:23 it would be good to check if creating themes are easier now 14:48:31 * clown has quit (Remote closed the connection) 14:48:33 AFAIR, create a theme on gtk2 was 14:48:37 complex 14:48:44 and undocumented 14:48:56 * joanie (~jd@c-98-217-239-60.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #a11y-meeting 14:49:01 hi joanie 14:49:04 hi joanie 14:49:12 API sorry, I'm *really* sick 14:49:20 no problem, I already supposed that 14:49:31 anyway, we were still on the first point 14:49:33 testing 14:49:43 and talking about theme thing 14:49:58 in summary, the actions I proposed was: 14:50:00 1. if the current a11y theme are working fine 14:50:06 2. Can we improve the a11y themes? 14:50:18 2 in relation that in theory the new theme engine is more flexible and easy to use 14:50:23 AFAIR, create a theme on gtk2 was 14:50:23 complex 14:50:23 and undocumented 14:50:35 * joanie nods 14:50:37 and we were talking about it about 20 minutes 14:50:38 so 14:50:44 :-) 14:50:47 any other question or comments before moving on? 14:50:55 * clown (~clown@205.211.169.2) has joined #a11y-meeting 14:52:05 API:Anything else within testing? 14:52:15 bnitz, well just in case 14:52:17 * clown is back (our uplink went down). 14:52:21 this point is about testing 14:52:24 but it is more related 14:52:26 to 14:52:27 Has anyone looked at the mago-based accessibility tests I have in launchpad? 14:52:29 "people 14:52:40 take a gnome 3 distribution and test manually if a11y is working" 14:52:52 bnitz, well, have you announced that you have that? 14:53:03 because I don't remember any mail on gnome-accessibility-devel about it 14:53:28 API: Maybe not. Sorry I should send it to the list. 14:53:47 well, just to know 14:53:50 * bnitz takes action to send announcement 14:54:05 what this accessibility test includes? 14:54:12 I mentioned here a while back because it seems a few individuals were interested. 14:54:15 the desktop? any specific application? gnome2? gnome3? 14:54:47 API: All of the validator plugin tests within accerciser plus a few other test primitives, focus traversal. 14:55:48 ok, so this mago-based accessibility tests are supposed to be used within accerciser? 14:55:55 API: These can be event triggered. (e.g. window:open event triggers accerciser tests, or subset of these on window's children) 14:56:36 API:So they're meant to add accessibility test functionality to existing mago based application tests as well as allow accessibility specific tests of the entire desktop. 14:57:02 API:No they aren't used within accerciser, they are compatible with accerciser plugins though. 14:57:15 bnitz, well I was thinking more about how to install it 14:57:15 Specifically the validator plugins. 14:57:25 it is documented somehow on that launchpad branch? 14:57:34 btw, could you write here the specific link? 14:57:38 API:There is still a manual step. No I have to improve docs. 14:57:39 for minutes sake 14:57:45 https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-nitz/+junk/a11ytesting 14:58:01 bnitz, ok thanks 14:58:44 bnitz, so in brief, what it is the best way to test those scripts? 14:58:48 Need to think about whether this and its dependencies (mago+ldtp) need to go into GNOME git in order to be used or whether launchpads RCS bazaar is OK 14:59:51 * mgorse (mgorse@SDF.ORG) has joined #a11y-meeting 14:59:52 API:They are meant to be building blocks but there are some example tests included. 14:59:56 well, right now the more important is being able to test it 15:00:15 "where is the best place to have them" is secondary 15:00:26 well, bnitz 15:00:33 API:I'm just about to move my build and test environment to 3.0 (which wasn't yet possible on my OS) so I should be able to tell you what works and what doesn't there. 15:00:40 sincerely, 15:00:48 I think that it would be really valuable a guide 15:00:53 although it can be simple 15:01:00 something like a README or a INSTALL 15:01:07 on the repository 15:01:17 in order to know how to test those scripts 15:01:32 * bnitz takes an action to doc automated accessibility test README and INSTALL. 15:01:42 bnitz, ok thanks 15:01:47 well, lets summarize this point 15:01:50 1. Testing 15:01:57 in fact 15:02:03 1. Testing GNOME 3.0 status 15:02:09 a) a new item was added: themes 15:02:20 a.1) check if current a11y themes are working 15:02:40 a.2) (secondary) check if it is true that create and improve themes are easier now 15:02:46 2. Automatic testing 15:02:59 bnitz tests here: https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-nitz/+junk/a11ytesting 15:03:06 it would be good to check them 15:03:18 bnitz will work on a guide to newcomers 15:03:25 anything else or can we move? 15:05:28 its the sound... of the silence 15:05:31 ok, lets move 15:05:42 I will skip 2 15:05:45 and first this: 15:05:49 3. Atk Hackfest updates 15:05:51 well, 15:06:04 just to say that I have officially announced it 15:06:08 we have a place 15:06:12 (coruña, spain) 15:06:16 and we have date 15:06:32 people willing to come 15:06:37 please add themselves here 15:06:39 and a hotel 15:06:42 http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011 15:06:52 well yes, a recommended hotel 15:06:53 that is reasonably priced :-) 15:06:57 it is near of the office 15:07:01 and yes ^^ 15:07:06 about that 15:07:15 I added the prices of this hotel on the hackfest page 15:07:15 API I think we should add a link to the hotel on the page 15:07:47 joanie, hmm I though that we had one 15:07:49 * API chekcing 15:07:59 there are a google maps link 15:08:07 that includes his official page link 15:08:08 I mean to book reservations 15:08:13 does it 15:08:16 * joanie shuts up 15:08:18 sorry 15:08:59 so people that requires foundation fund 15:09:07 should ask the travel committee as usual 15:09:08 do we book the hotel by ourself or gnome does it for us? 15:09:30 li_, hmm, a good question 15:09:51 I will ask here what people did with the gtk hackfest 15:09:57 as we used the same place and the same hotel 15:10:21 so action: 15:10:38 resolv li_ question "do we book the hotel by ourself or gnome does it for us?" 15:10:47 ok, any other question, doubt or comment? 15:14:32 well, it seems that no, no questions ;) 15:14:48 well, we have a GNOME 3 updates 15:14:58 but after all, we covered that with the testing thing 15:15:01 ah 15:15:06 well just a question 15:15:22 li_, are you still working on the "move gail to gtk" ? 15:15:34 yes, just have a commit today 15:16:26 there is something similar to a deadline or something? 15:16:47 know we don't 15:16:47 the plan is have this thinking on GNOME 3, or it is something not related? 15:17:57 I think maybe we can finish this before GNOME3 15:18:17 li_: How much has been done already? 15:18:42 I think 14 widgets has been moved 15:18:48 li_, really? you are a really optimistic guy ;) 15:18:52 well, forgetting jokes 15:18:55 although some complex widgets are left 15:18:57 this seems a lot of work 15:19:06 taking into account the little time remaining 15:19:33 I mean we can move all the widgets before gnome3 15:19:47 but improve the code is a long process 15:20:30 just realize that everything will be freezed then 15:20:51 li_, ah ok 15:20:53 yes 15:21:12 so maybe we can not merge the branch to master... 15:21:35 yeah, it makes sense 15:21:44 ok li_ thanks for the update 15:21:44 anyway, the work goes well for now 15:21:59 well, less that 10 minutes to go, taking into account how popular is this point 15:22:07 lets start with the "miscellaneous time" 15:22:24 anything else to comment not included on the agenda? 15:26:29 * jhernandez (~androirc@212.166.237.51) has joined #a11y-meeting 15:27:45 funny, when we have 5 minutes for miscellaneous time, it requires 15 minutes 15:27:52 when we have almost 10 15:27:58 nobody has something to say 15:27:59 ;) 15:28:02 lol 15:28:04 well, 15:28:19 well, now we have 2 ... 15:28:20 meeting over 15:28:43 no we haven't, people already had the opportunity to talk, they lost it ;) 15:28:43 * clown thanks the chair(s) for chairing. 15:28:45 meeting over 15:28:47 thatnks 15:28:49 argh 15:28:52 thanks to be here