1 (15:12:04) API: so lets start the meeting
   2 (15:12:15) API: as usual, agenda here:
   3 (15:12:16) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
   4 (15:13:07) API: the first point is this:
   5 (15:13:15) API: Problems with a mixed old binding/new (gobject introspection based) bindings due last changes on at-spi2-core 
   6 (15:13:32) clown: are those python bindings? or all languages?
   7 (15:13:43) API: hmm
   8 (15:13:51) API: well, for the moment it affects python bindings
   9 (15:14:03) clown: okay...that would affect orca (at least)
  10 (15:14:05) API: the issue is that at-spi2-core/atk has moved to gobject introspection
  11 (15:14:16) ***joanie nods sadly
  12 (15:14:16) clown: ah
  13 (15:14:19) API: but orca and accerciser still used the oldd
  14 (15:14:27) API: pythong bindings
  15 (15:14:31) API: and those are not compatible
  16 (15:14:34) API: in my personal case
  17 (15:14:45) API: means that orca can't read gconf properties, so some
  18 (15:14:48) API: configuration are missed
  19 (15:14:55) API: but in accerciser is just a crash
  20 (15:15:03) joanie: API, I'll do an interim hack for that in Orca
  21 (15:15:08) API: the "do the right thing" solution
  22 (15:15:10) clown: does it affect dbus too? (intutition says yes).
  23 (15:15:11) joanie: we need to convert properly
  24 (15:15:17) API: would be move to object introspection
  25 (15:15:19) clown: 'intuition'
  26 (15:15:24) API: or at least something allowing to use them
  27 (15:15:27) API: it is
  28 (15:15:32) API: support for gtk2 and gtk3
  29 (15:15:40) API: joanie and aleiva are working on that AFAIK
  30 (15:15:46) ***joanie nods
  31 (15:16:01) joanie: but I am thinking we do something sooner for your (and others') immediate issue
  32 (15:16:04) API: bnitz, any shedule for use object introspection bindings on accerciser?
  33 (15:16:08) doffm: API: How close are the gobject introspected Pythn API's to the hand-wrung ones?
  34 (15:16:20) bnitz: API: No sorry.
  35 (15:16:29) bnitz: API:Is a bug logged for this issue?
  36 (15:17:29) ***joanie thinks that jpwhiting created a patch too but isn't sure
  37 (15:17:38) joanie: (for Accerciser)
  38 (15:18:10) API: bnitz, you mean a migration bug or other kind of bug?
  39 (15:18:12) joanie: (Orca is going to be a lot more work to convert and we want to support both gtk2/pygtk gtk3/pygi)
  40 (15:18:25) API: doffm, it seams that there isn't a automatic way to do that
  41 (15:18:35) bnitz: joanie:That would be awesome. Accerciser gets far too little time on gtk3 for me because the 2 OSs I work in aren't ready yet.
  42 (15:18:37) API: at least eitan has some problems with caribou
  43 (15:18:41) bnitz: API:Any kind of bug ;-)
  44 (15:18:42) clown: re: Orca: also GSettings
  45 (15:18:57) API: and some of the posts related to the recent pygi hackfest suggests that
  46 (15:19:23) ***bnitz didn't see jpwhiting's patch yet.
  47 (15:20:24) API: bnitz, AFAIK, it is a local work
  48 (15:20:51) API: anyway, this was mostly an informative item
  49 (15:21:04) API: although it is a pity that mgorse is not here
  50 (15:21:04) bnitz: OK I'll contact jpwhiting. I'll try to commit asap especially if it is backwards compatible with gtk2/pygtk
  51 (15:21:12) bnitz: I suppose that's too much to ask.
  52 (15:21:14) joanie: bnitz: it won't be
  53 (15:21:18) API: bnitz, I think that no
  54 (15:21:19) bnitz: rats
  55 (15:21:20) joanie: I haven't looked
  56 (15:21:21) ***clown just pinged jpwhiting in the #a11y channel
  57 (15:21:23) API: he just started a migration
  58 (15:21:32) API: this is other thing that you need to decide
  59 (15:21:35) joanie: my understand is that it's one or the other
  60 (15:21:37) API: if you want for the future
  61 (15:21:45) API: accerciser compatible with gtk2 and gtk3
  62 (15:21:46) joanie: therefore (and for other reasons) Orca is going to have a gui manager
  63 (15:21:54) API: of if you just want to be compatible with gtk3
  64 (15:21:57) joanie: configurable at run time
  65 (15:22:05) API: so people using gtk2 would require to use an "old" accerciser
  66 (15:22:07) bnitz: OK
  67 (15:22:14) joanie: thus gtk2 and gtk3 code will be separated 
  68 (15:22:24) joanie: and thus we can (in theory) have both supported
  69 (15:22:33) joanie: but this is a non-trivial change and amount of work
  70 (15:22:40) joanie: not run time
  71 (15:22:41) joanie: build time
  72 (15:22:45) ***joanie is still waking up
  73 (15:22:51) bnitz: No it doesn't sound like it. Thanks for the info.
  74 (15:23:03) bnitz: joanie, what do you plan on doing for orca?
  75 (15:23:11) joanie: see above
  76 (15:23:13) API: joanie, this is the reason that I said that bnitz need to decide if he want all this amount of work
  77 (15:23:14) joanie: :-)
  78 (15:23:19) API: or just migrate to gtk3
  79 (15:23:24) API: and just support gtk3
  80 (15:23:29) API: using and old version to gtk2
  81 (15:23:36) API: most of the apps are doing that
  82 (15:23:45) API: although it is a maintainer decision
  83 (15:23:49) API: both have pros and cons
  84 (15:24:02) joanie: We're doing both for two reasons
  85 (15:24:16) joanie: 1. Ubuntu is still at-spi (ditto for other distros)
  86 (15:24:22) joanie: 2. Our users 
  87 (15:24:37) joanie: (many pull Orca from master, but won't jump to the next upgrade for gnome)
  88 (15:24:52) joanie: so I think we have an obligation to at least do our best to support both
  89 (15:24:58) ***joanie sighs tiredly
  90 (15:25:00) joanie: :-)
  91 (15:25:07) API: ok, thanks joanie for the explanation
  92 (15:25:09) API: as I said 
  93 (15:25:16) API: this was mostly an informative point
  94 (15:25:17) API: lets move
  95 (15:25:28) joanie: :-)
  96 (15:25:40) API: doffm are you still "more or less" here?
  97 (15:26:52) API: well, just in case you still here
  98 (15:27:00) API: I will move directly to the atk hackfest
  99 (15:27:19) API: doffm came here because we were talking about it, 
 100 (15:27:36) ***joanie notes that doffm is (another) peson who has not responded to the emails
 101 (15:27:42) joanie: unless I have the wrong address
 102 (15:27:43) API: and he told me that it will be really unlikely to be there
 103 (15:27:57) API: this is the reason I started to ping him directly ;)
 104 (15:28:09) API: for the new people
 105 (15:28:21) API: we are organizing a atk/at-spi hackfest
 106 (15:28:23) API: http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011
 107 (15:28:33) API: so
 108 (15:28:45) API: joanie for the people we sent directly a mail
 109 (15:28:51) API: how many didn't answer yet?
 110 (15:29:00) joanie: API in any form?
 111 (15:29:13) joanie: doffm, malte, ...
 112 (15:29:21) joanie: those may be the only two
 113 (15:29:30) API: malte is the "open office guy" right?
 114 (15:29:33) ***joanie nods
 115 (15:29:48) joanie: I can ping Eric S to be sure Malte is still alive, etc.
 116 (15:29:49) API: hmm
 117 (15:30:01) API: well, in that case, from that original mail
 118 (15:30:07) API: show is not in this table:
 119 (15:30:09) API: http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011
 120 (15:30:18) API: ...at the end
 121 (15:30:47) joanie: bnitz: did you note the new dates?
 122 (15:31:00) joanie: and if you can go please add yourself to the table API just referenced
 123 (15:31:15) bnitz: joanie:Yes. I don't think I can go, but the dates aren't an issue.
 124 (15:31:28) joanie: ah gotcha
 125 (15:31:31) joanie: that's too bad
 126 (15:31:37) bnitz: yeah :-/
 127 (15:31:55) API: ok, well so lets conclude for the moment atk hackfest
 128 (15:32:17) API: action: remember people willing to go to edit the page
 129 (15:32:23) API: next event: FOSDEM
 130 (15:32:36) API: msanchez, myself, will be there
 131 (15:32:50) joanie: Ale's going. And Fer.
 132 (15:32:58) API: msanchez has a talk
 133 (15:33:00) API: ale and fer?
 134 (15:33:04) joanie: yup
 135 (15:33:06) msanchez: and API probably too
 136 (15:33:14) joanie: Ale has a talk I believe
 137 (15:33:24) API: well, I still don't know
 138 (15:33:27) API: ok
 139 (15:33:34) joanie: Louis is taking his time
 140 (15:33:59) API: ok
 141 (15:34:02) API: well summary
 142 (15:34:12) API: several a11y related talks on the FOSDEM
 143 (15:34:16) API: and other people
 144 (15:34:20) API: anything else?
 145 (15:35:05) danigm: I'll be there too
 146 (15:35:24) API: danigm, just for curiosity
 147 (15:35:29) API: you have also a talk?
 148 (15:35:44) danigm: API: we've two (wadobo), but not me, edulix
 149 (15:36:51) API: danigm, ok thanks
 150 (15:37:01) danigm: but nothing a11y related 
 151 (15:37:13) API: oh, ok
 152 (15:37:30) API: well, next event: CSUN
 153 (15:37:40) API: well, I'm somewhat disconnected of this event
 154 (15:37:55) API: I think that Bryen, Eitan will be there
 155 (15:37:56) joanie: I think most people are not going as there is no hackfest
 156 (15:37:57) API: Ale?
 157 (15:38:03) joanie: Ale is planning on it
 158 (15:38:06) API: Li?
 159 (15:38:09) joanie: Li is not
 160 (15:38:14) API: ok
 161 (15:38:21) joanie: wait
 162 (15:38:24) joanie: correction
 163 (15:38:30) joanie: Li is but Oracle is funding him
 164 (15:38:36) joanie: you should have that in an email I think API
 165 (15:38:40) joanie: that's where I saw it
 166 (15:38:55) mgorse [mgorse@SDF.ORG] entered the room.
 167 (15:39:46) API: yes, this is the reason I asked
 168 (15:40:12) joanie: API sorry (still waking up). What is the reason?
 169 (15:40:18) API: mgorse, and you? I think that you mentioned about CSUN other day
 170 (15:40:33) API: joanie, just an update of the status
 171 (15:40:39) API: after all, we have it on the agenda ;)
 172 (15:40:49) joanie: yeah, well....
 173 (15:41:03) joanie: in the hopes eitan or bryen might show up and give an update
 174 (15:41:31) joanie: My one question is should people who are seeking funding go ahead and apply to the travel committee?
 175 (15:41:36) API: yeah, in that case we would have best information
 176 (15:41:48) API: hmm, yes I guess so
 177 (15:41:58) ***joanie has decided to ask for funding from GNOME because she didn't want to go to CSUN in the first place but GNU signed her up for a panel :-/
 178 (15:41:59) API: but as far as I know, for the moment is just one person
 179 (15:42:10) API: ah
 180 (15:42:13) API: ok, you also
 181 (15:42:18) joanie: (and then pulled out from funding it)
 182 (15:42:24) joanie: go, go GNU!
 183 (15:42:39) joanie: (strike that last comment from the minutes)
 184 (15:42:50) API: well, from the a11y budget we have some money for CSUN
 185 (15:43:00) API: so two people shouldn't be a problem
 186 (15:43:17) joanie: and being in the states, my flight shouldn't be too terribly bad
 187 (15:43:22) joanie: one night of hotel
 188 (15:43:55) joanie: so I shall tell Ale to apply for funding, yes?
 189 (15:44:14) API: if he want to go to CSUN, yes
 190 (15:44:19) joanie: :-)
 191 (15:44:38) API: well, something else about events?
 192 (15:44:51) joanie: back to Atk?
 193 (15:44:57) joanie: quick question
 194 (15:45:04) API: shoot
 195 (15:45:05) joanie: can we *count* on those dates at this point?
 196 (15:45:08) ***joanie aims
 197 (15:45:15) joanie: i.e. for purchasing flights
 198 (15:45:32) joanie: it would be helpful to know for sure as I tend to book non-refundable tickets
 199 (15:45:36) joanie: because I'm cheap
 200 (15:45:37) joanie: :-P
 201 (15:46:32) joanie: and mgorse now that you're here....
 202 (15:46:34) API: msanchez as far as remember nobody on Igalia said anything about that date
 203 (15:46:43) joanie: May 9th-15th
 204 (15:46:50) msanchez: No, guess it's ok
 205 (15:46:50) API: we don't have any assembly and go on
 206 (15:46:59) msanchez: sounds like a good week for it
 207 (15:47:00) joanie: okay, so then I propose the following
 208 (15:47:00) API: thats my feeling
 209 (15:47:20) API: about that dates, AFAIK, we were waiting for the hypothetical attendees
 210 (15:47:20) joanie: if the Igalians could get an official blessing (rather than an 'I guess it's ok')
 211 (15:47:34) joanie: well, mgorse is here
 212 (15:47:40) msanchez: I'll send an email
 213 (15:47:40) joanie: so we need to find out from him
 214 (15:47:43) msanchez: I mean, now
 215 (15:48:00) joanie: but Li won't be able to get a visa if we wait much longer
 216 (15:48:13) joanie: and we did promise to not have a repeat of Li's visa problems
 217 (15:48:17) mgorse: I can't tell you if that day is okay with Igalia
 218 (15:48:28) joanie: mgorse: okay with *you* silly :-)
 219 (15:48:39) mgorse: yes, it's okay with me
 220 (15:48:40) joanie: are you available then?
 221 (15:48:44) joanie: thanks mgorse!
 222 (15:49:08) joanie: that means only Malte is the unknown
 223 (15:49:15) API: yes, I agree that we can't delay that longer
 224 (15:49:17) API: soo, 
 225 (15:49:22) API: we can propose a deadline
 226 (15:49:24) joanie: I will email him (and Eric S) privately and CC you API
 227 (15:49:40) joanie: deadline is yesterday
 228 (15:49:46) joanie: please confirm in house
 229 (15:49:53) API: something like a "this is the last warning" after X day, the hackfest will be set on stone
 230 (15:50:04) ***joanie thinks we're beyond that point already
 231 (15:50:10) API: joanie, as msanchez and we said, the availability is confirmed
 232 (15:50:12) joanie: the only one we don't know about is Malte
 233 (15:50:30) joanie: oh, I misread what msanchez said
 234 (15:50:49) joanie: I took that to mean y'all thought it would be ok due to nothing else happening at that time
 235 (15:51:06) joanie: if I get tickets and Li gets a visa and then you say "oops"....
 236 (15:51:18) joanie: so for clarity (and the minutes)
 237 (15:51:18) msanchez: mail sent
 238 (15:51:32) joanie: the status is that we *think* it's okay and msanchez has just asked
 239 (15:51:33) API: well, lets set as deadline, next a11y meeting
 240 (15:51:34) joanie: correct?
 241 (15:51:36) msanchez: but as API said, it's pretty clear everybody here is ok with dates
 242 (15:51:42) API: or you prefer to b e more drastic?
 243 (15:51:49) API: I mean, set now the deadline
 244 (15:51:53) joanie: msanchez: pretty clear sucks for visas and non-refundable tickets
 245 (15:51:58) joanie: API re deadline...
 246 (15:52:05) joanie: to me, if Igalia officially confirms it, it's set
 247 (15:52:12) joanie: we've emailed everyone several times
 248 (15:52:19) joanie: talked about it in multiple meetings
 249 (15:52:32) joanie: Malte is the only unknown at this point attendee-wize
 250 (15:52:42) ***API reading mario mail
 251 (15:52:52) joanie: and having a date and filling out the goals, etc. would be good for approaching a few others like LibreOffice
 252 (15:53:01) API: well, our deadline on that "confirmation mail" is tomorrow
 253 (15:53:01) joanie: it might be worth poking KDE folks 
 254 (15:53:08) API: so lets do that
 255 (15:53:16) API: tomorrow I will sent to the a11y mailing list
 256 (15:53:19) API: and to the wiki
 257 (15:53:23) msanchez: I sent a mail now to our internal list, and if nobody says nothing it's 101% sure it's ok
 258 (15:53:25) API: a mail "date set on stone"
 259 (15:53:30) msanchez: (it's 99% sure already, btw)
 260 (15:53:31) joanie: yay! thanks API and msanchez!
 261 (15:53:37) ***joanie is paranoid
 262 (15:53:42) joanie: comes with old age :-P
 263 (15:53:43) API: it is normal
 264 (15:53:45) API: well
 265 (15:53:48) joanie: (and experience)
 266 (15:53:52) API: about 5 minutes to the end
 267 (15:53:54) bnitz: joanie:Having a few of those filled in might help with my overlords. 
 268 (15:53:59) API: about the GNOME 3 point
 269 (15:54:04) ***joanie nods knowingly
 270 (15:54:06) bnitz: as would removing the nice photo of the location.
 271 (15:54:12) joanie: heh
 272 (15:54:24) joanie: bnitz: please send a photo of an ugly, boring building
 273 (15:54:25) API: just to comment that we didn't do our homework properly
 274 (15:54:31) API: so the actions are still valid
 275 (15:54:33) joanie: we suck
 276 (15:54:46) joanie: I will roll over those action items
 277 (15:54:48) joanie: into this week
 278 (15:54:52) bnitz: np :-) Hey at least it's cloudy in the photo.
 279 (15:54:55) API: yep
 280 (15:55:02) API: well, 5 minutes to the end
 281 (15:55:06) API: miscellaneous time
 282 (15:55:12) joanie: Yay for misc time
 283 (15:55:14) msanchez: joanie: don't worry, I "threated" all the Igalia Assembly in the last line of my mail with this:
 284 (15:55:14) API: someone wants to say something?
 285 (15:55:20) msanchez: "Remember, as usual silence means 'Ok'"
 286 (15:55:30) joanie: API I think we should have someone on the RT (as you know)
 287 (15:55:30) msanchez: so they have no escape
 288 (15:55:43) joanie: And I personally think it should be API (as API knows)
 289 (15:55:51) joanie: have you talked to the RT about this API?
 290 (15:56:19) ***joanie hopes API doesn't kill her for putting him on the spot
 291 (15:56:23) API: to be officially on the release team?
 292 (15:56:30) joanie: yeah -- for after 3.0
 293 (15:56:37) joanie: I think it's a little late in the game now
 294 (15:56:50) joanie: but I'd like the RT to be thinking about having an a11y team member on their team
 295 (15:56:59) joanie: so I'd like to ask them before too long
 296 (15:57:04) joanie: to start considering it
 297 (15:57:09) API: well, not sure, you already pointed that "we suck" and it is basically due have too much on the plate
 298 (15:57:28) joanie: well, after 3.0 is out, we should have a better plate and suck less
 299 (15:57:39) API: ask to be on the RT and then do that just "half-good"...
 300 (15:57:45) mgorse: I think people have unofficially discussed that before but nothing came of it at the team. One of us needs to volunteer to do it, I think
 301 (15:57:53) joanie: mgorse: exactly
 302 (15:58:00) joanie: mgorse: I'm volunteering API :-P
 303 (15:58:03) mgorse: s/team/time/
 304 (15:58:10) joanie: but after 3.0 is over
 305 (15:58:20) joanie: API will you please give it some thought
 306 (15:58:27) joanie: and then we can do our homework
 307 (15:58:30) joanie: wait a bit
 308 (15:58:32) joanie: and then propose it
 309 (15:58:43) jpwhiting [~jeremy@75-169-202-96.slkc.qwest.net] entered the room.
 310 (15:58:55) joanie: because I don't think half of the crap that came down this cycle would have happened if we had a rep on the RT
 311 (15:58:55) jpwhiting: hmm, did I miss the meeting?
 312 (15:59:05) joanie: jpwhiting: all but the last 2 minutes I'm afraid
 313 (15:59:12) API: jpwhiting, well, you will enjoy 2 minutes
 314 (15:59:12) jpwhiting: bnitz: I have some changes, but not enough to make it work completely, it's a start, I'll send you what I have
 315 (15:59:16) jpwhiting: :)
 316 (15:59:32) bnitz: jpwhiting:Awesome!
 317 (15:59:40) API: jpwhiting, just a question
 318 (15:59:48) danigm: in misc time, I want to talk about ONCE and CUSL. ONCE give an a11y prize in CUSL (http://concursosoftwarelibre.org/1011/patrocinio-fundacion-once) so I think they are interested in linux a11y
 319 (15:59:57) API: it is a migration work or a "support gtk2 and gtk3" patch
 320 (15:59:58) bnitz: Now I need to figure out how to get enough of Gnome 3 dependencies working to break accerciser so jpwhiting's patch can fix it!
 321 (16:00:23) API: danigm, could you elaborate this "I think they are interested in linux a11y"
 322 (16:00:38) API: are you thinking in any kind of action related with that?
 323 (16:00:40) joanie: danigm: Did you go to the congress?
 324 (16:00:50) jpwhiting: API: migration I believe
 325 (16:00:57) danigm: joanie: I don't know
 326 (16:00:58) API: after all Consorcio is already a ONCE related "interest on linux"
 327 (16:01:04) jpwhiting: though I'm a bit of a python noob, so I might still be using gtk2 here, I'm not sure
 328 (16:01:07) joanie: danigm: it happened this week
 329 (16:01:10) jpwhiting: bnitz: e-mail address?
 330 (16:01:13) joanie: did you attend it?
 331 (16:01:21) danigm: no
 332 (16:01:50) API: jpwhiting, gobject introspection python binding are just for gtk3
 333 (16:01:57) bnitz: jpwhiting:I msg'd it to you.
 334 (16:03:04) jpwhiting: API: ok, then yeah, it's moving to gtk3
 335 (16:03:32) ***joanie is curious about API's question
 336 (16:03:37) joanie: (16:00:23) API: danigm, could you elaborate this "I think they are interested in linux a11y"
 337 (16:03:37) joanie: (16:00:38) API: are you thinking in any kind of action related with that?
 338 (16:03:51) joanie: or rather about the answer to it
 339 (16:04:26) danigm: what I trying to say about CUSL and ONCE is that I'm involved in CUSL organization so if someone want to come to give a talk in CUSL final event I can help
 340 (16:04:48) joanie: aha that might be cool
 341 (16:04:55) doffm left the room.
 342 (16:05:03) jpwhiting: bnitz: sent
 343 (16:05:18) bnitz: thanks
 344 (16:05:35) joanie: danigm: Save me the slow reading/translation time. When is the event? And where?
 345 (16:06:01) API: well, about 5 minutes over time
 346 (16:06:12) API: any last misc item?
 347 (16:06:19) ***joanie observes we started 10 minutes late and thus are -5 minutes over time :-P
 348 (16:06:21) API: -->quick last item<--
 349 (16:06:25) danigm: joanie: the event will be at mid may I think, and this year will be in granada
 350 (16:06:32) joanie: thanks danigm!
 351 (16:06:38) danigm: granada, andalusia, spain
 352 (16:06:44) joanie: So the event will be when I'm in Spain
 353 (16:06:46) joanie: cool
 354 (16:06:54) joanie: danigm: dates would be good
 355 (16:07:22) ***clown likes joanies meeting time math.
 356 (16:07:38) ***joanie wonders if there should be some sort of Orca + Evince talk :-)
 357 (16:07:46) danigm: Maybe I'll talk about gnome a11y theere, and I don't know if aleiva is interested too, because Emergya paid cusl last year, this year I don't know
 358 (16:07:58) joanie: danigm: talk to Ale
 359 (16:08:16) joanie: I can't participate formally as I won't know Spanish by then
 360 (16:08:34) joanie: but if it's there when I'm there, I'd love to help out and see a GNOME a11y talk 
 361 (16:08:44) joanie: perhaps a collaboration between your new company and Emergya
 362 (16:08:50) danigm: yep
 363 (16:09:02) danigm: I need to talk with them
 364 (16:09:15) ***joanie whispers to clown: meeting math is the only math I ever mastered
 365 (16:09:33) joanie: Okay, I'm done. /me yields floor
 366 (16:09:36) API: well, not 10 minutes over time
 367 (16:09:39) API: so
 368 (16:09:42) API: meeting over
 369 (16:09:48) API: thanks folks for your time
 370 (16:09:52) joanie: thanks for chairing