(07:07:04) API: well, I guess that 5 minutes as margin is enough
(07:07:24) API: btw, it seems that there isn't any channel operator
(07:07:41) joanie: nope. aleiva was lurking from last time
(07:07:41) API: (I wanted to set the channel topic)
(07:07:48) joanie: sorry :-(
(07:07:59) API: it is not your fault ;)
(07:08:22) API: when this meeting is finished, lets ask all people to left the channel
(07:08:24) API: whatever
(07:08:32) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
(07:08:43) API: 1. GNOME 3.0 
(07:08:50) API: quick reminder
(07:09:07) API: some release team pinged us in order to know the state of accessibiilty
(07:09:12) API: accessibility
(07:09:15) API: for GNOME 3.0
(07:09:26) API: so we asked all the people to update the page
(07:09:59) API: in general the answer was fine
(07:10:27) API: in my personal case I didn't do that yet, as some of my patches were reviewed recently
(07:10:37) API: and I wanted to update that during this week, and
(07:10:38) API: then
(07:10:42) API: update the page
(07:11:07) API: but the rest of the people on this meeting already did the homework
(07:11:26) API: comments?
(07:11:38) joanie: I think perhaps we can still update some of the areas which aren't.
(07:11:47) joanie: like let's decide once and for all CSPI
(07:12:00) joanie: libgail-gnome says we still need to decide about it
(07:12:07) joanie: that was from back in march
(07:12:39) API: well, mgorse also updated that section
(07:12:47) API: I mean cspi
(07:12:50) joanie: libgail-gnome?
(07:12:55) joanie: ah
(07:13:06) API: so mgorse
(07:13:14) joanie: I am not seeing that update (cspi)
(07:13:23) API: about cspi
(07:13:27) API: the current status is
(07:13:33) API: "drop for gnome3"
(07:13:52) API: but after your last work, it seems feasible eventually
(07:13:55) API: soo
(07:14:20) API: what about do something like gnome-shell developers and say that it is planned for GNOME 3.X
(07:14:25) API: if someone is willing to do that?
(07:14:27) mgorse: Either we need to write a compatibility layer, or a few apps need to be ported
(07:14:50) API: yeah, but I guess that that layer will not be ready for GNOME 3
(07:14:56) API: at least 3.0
(07:15:28) API: in the same way, if a new compatibility layer is written, 
(07:15:35) API: I guess that the proper name is CSPI2
(07:15:41) joanie: :-)
(07:15:59) joanie: also the apps in question are deprecated
(07:16:11) mgorse: dasher and brltty?
(07:16:22) joanie: brltty is impacted by this?
(07:16:27) ***joanie reads
(07:16:36) joanie: oh as a stand alone
(07:16:50) joanie: well, the world's coming to an end anyway
(07:16:52) joanie: :-P
(07:16:54) API: well, and in the same way, the status says
(07:16:59) API: BrlTTY - while not a GNOME project, BrlTTY is used by Orca. BrlTTY also provides direct interaction with AT-SPI, and has been ported to use both CSPI/CORBA and D-Bus for AT-SPI. 
(07:17:10) API: so it seems that it was already ported
(07:17:20) joanie: true
(07:17:25) mgorse: oh. hmm
(07:18:57) API: well, lets try to conclude something specific about CSPI
(07:19:16) joanie: what I'm wondering is if we need a fourth category
(07:19:22) API: I think that the last comment from mgorse on the wiki is fine
(07:19:29) joanie: risk implies that we're still going to do something about it
(07:19:39) joanie: so two things
(07:19:54) joanie: if the last comment from mgorse is the one that starts with 'Notes', that needs a date
(07:20:04) joanie: I think we should clearly mark dates for the RT
(07:20:15) joanie: secondly, back to the fourth category
(07:20:21) API: yes, and in the same way, it would be good to remove the one with status 24-Mar-2010
(07:20:27) joanie: we have three 'risk' categories/levels
(07:20:50) joanie: to me risk assumes that there's still something to decide and updates to continue to provide
(07:21:11) joanie: if CSPI ain't gonna happen in time for 3.0 and if those apps aren't going to work, I think we add a fourth category
(07:21:31) mgorse: I'm seeing an atspi2 driver in brltty, so I guess that just leaves dasher
(07:21:32) joanie: casualities, losses, bad juju, oops, ain't gonna happen, whatever
(07:22:51) API: joanie, you mean something like "not for gnome 3.0, eventually for gnome 3.X" ?
(07:23:03) joanie: closer :-)
(07:23:16) joanie: perhaps "not for gnome 3.0"
(07:23:30) joanie: whether or not it happens in the future remains to be seen
(07:23:57) API: ok, I think that it is a good idea
(07:23:57) ***aleiva quietly appears
(07:23:59) joanie: my point is, I think we should be able to clearly state/show what will happen, what might happen, and what ain't gonna happen
(07:24:02) API: a way to clarify that
(07:24:19) API: where that==the situation
(07:24:37) API: rest of the people, opinions?
(07:24:57) mgorse: makes sense to me
(07:25:23) API: well, lets try to move on
(07:25:27) API: libgail-gnome
(07:25:29) API: li
(07:25:33) API: you are the key contact
(07:25:50) API: on the last (and outdated) status
(07:25:55) API: Status: 24-Mar-2010 - need to decide if this can go away or not. Right now, things like gnome-pabel getting rid of Bonobo may have left us in a state where panel applets can be inaccessible. 
(07:25:59) API: well, AFAIK 
(07:26:10) API: on GNOME 3 there will not be panel applets
(07:26:16) API: not on GNOME Shell
(07:26:20) li: the last new I got from panel
(07:26:32) API: not on the panel for the fallback (classic) mode
(07:26:37) li: is that they have not decided to port applets to panel
(07:27:07) API: aha, it was a controversial decision, and a flame on desktop devel
(07:27:23) API: as far as I remember the conclusion is
(07:27:43) API: "current GNOME workforce will not do that, if anyone is interested, please do it by yourself"
(07:27:49) API: so taking into account that
(07:28:17) API: li, it is neccessary at all libgail-gnome?
(07:29:00) li: if there is no applet
(07:29:13) li: libgail-gnome is not necessary
(07:29:46) API: ok, li, could you update GNOME 3 page with that information?
(07:29:57) li: basically it is an implementation of bonobosocket
(07:30:08) li: ok
(07:30:39) API: ok, thanks, next point
(07:30:45) API: New Universal Access Preferences UI
(07:30:51) li: I am trying to find a page which state "we are not going to port applets", do you know if there is such page?
(07:31:04) API: li, there is no such page
(07:31:06) API: AFAIK
(07:31:11) li: ok
(07:31:16) API: you would require to search on desktop devel ml
(07:31:29) API: but you can write that, and then try to confirm it with release team
(07:31:31) li: yes, i remember there are such mails
(07:31:39) li: ok
(07:31:42) API: ok
(07:31:43) API: so
(07:31:46) API: New Universal Access Preferences UI
(07:31:58) API: first, the description itself is outdated
(07:32:10) API: as it keeps talking about gconf settings
(07:32:22) API: and this was moved to the new and shiny gsettings
(07:32:46) API: and btw
(07:32:47) API: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=638205
(07:33:01) API: William Jon revamped the dialog
(07:33:16) API: and removed the check button to set/unset accessibility
(07:33:23) API: at least the last time I tried it
(07:33:46) API: and btw, I will set the target to GNOME 3.0 as rt asked us
(07:33:53) API: ah, because this is something that
(07:33:56) API: we forget to say
(07:34:01) API: if we detect any bug
(07:34:08) API: that in opinion is a requirement for GNOME 3.0
(07:34:18) API: we should set the GNOME target
(07:34:19) mgorse: Do you know if accessibility is now on by default?
(07:34:20) API: on the bug 
(07:34:23) API: to GNOME 3.0
(07:34:31) API: mgorse, no, AFAIK
(07:34:40) API: you still need to set the setting
(07:34:55) API: that btw, now it is moved to a different schema
(07:37:24) API: so, the conclusion at this moemnt
(07:37:40) API: is that the new universal access preferences needs a real testing
(07:37:53) API: and that some bugs are blocking it
(07:37:59) API: Status: 04-Oct-2010 - We don't know who is working on it, send a mail to key contacts? 
(07:38:08) API: urgh, we didn't do our homework
(07:38:10) API: :(
(07:38:19) API: but afaik,william jon
(07:38:48) API: lets move
(07:38:51) API: AccessX-Status Applet
(07:39:04) API: I think that there are some indicators there
(07:39:15) API: I will try to test that again
(07:39:16) joanie: where?
(07:39:22) API: on GNOME Shell
(07:39:33) API: hmm
(07:39:34) joanie: what about for fallback?
(07:39:37) API: argh
(07:39:38) API: yes
(07:39:45) API: I started to thing about it again
(07:40:05) API: no applets at all means no accessX-status applets
(07:40:12) ***joanie nods
(07:40:22) API: s/again/now
(07:40:28) API: well, this means
(07:40:38) API: that we will likely have this supported on GNOME Shell
(07:40:45) API: but a regression on the fallback mode
(07:40:55) API: the one with a better a11y support
(07:41:35) API: I guess that definitively we need to contact Eitan
(07:41:47) API: at least to know if he is still willing to track this issue
(07:42:15) joanie: API can we task you with that?
(07:42:32) API: you mean contact Eitan?
(07:42:35) joanie: yup
(07:43:41) API: ok, 
(07:43:46) API: yes, I will send a mail to Eitan
(07:43:50) joanie: thanks
(07:44:29) API: next item
(07:44:34) API: VizAudio
(07:44:42) API: I guess that the estate
(07:44:44) API: ups
(07:44:46) API: state
(07:44:47) API: is the same
(07:44:52) joanie: hold on
(07:45:17) joanie: ViZAudio is not in GNOME 2.x now, right?
(07:45:28) API: no?
(07:45:35) API: well, I supposed that yes
(07:45:40) API: we always were talking about it
(07:45:40) joanie: Notes: VizAudio was done as an HFOSS project. It currently provides a visual-only back end for libcanberra because libcanberra did not (and may still not) support more than one backend in place at any given time. Some TLC needs to be given to VizAudio.
(07:45:51) API: when I arrived here it was listed here
(07:46:03) joanie: Yeah, I don't mean you should have changed it
(07:46:09) API: btw, TLC?
(07:46:16) joanie: I mean now that we're looking on it, it belongs on that new page
(07:46:19) joanie: tender loving care
(07:46:47) joanie: Or the learning channel
(07:46:50) joanie: :-P
(07:47:04) API: or the hip hop ground band
(07:47:05) API: ok
(07:47:13) API: I think that you are right
(07:47:21) joanie: conclusion: Joanie moves this to the new page?
(07:47:25) API: we should move it to the other page
(07:47:26) API: aha
(07:47:43) API: and update the status
(07:47:54) joanie: I don't know the status
(07:48:03) joanie: I think the status is nothing has changed.
(07:48:14) API: just one line status with "nothing happened" would be enough
(07:48:22) joanie: I can totally do that. ;-)
(07:48:29) API: yes, but I think that it is not worth to say that three times
(07:48:47) joanie: I can change the date and just say it once
(07:48:56) API: well, next point is GNOME Shell
(07:49:12) API: as I said I will update that after update my last patches
(07:49:14) API: although for example
(07:49:26) API: keyboard navigation risk should be put in green
(07:49:33) API: as gnome SHELL
(07:49:34) API: ups
(07:49:38) API: GNOME shell
(07:49:45) API: has keyboard navigation support
(07:49:54) API: so there are just some views not using that yet
(07:50:06) API: so I think that a low risk fits here
(07:50:46) API: so conclusion: I will update all GNOME Shell items soon
(07:51:02) API: next item
(07:51:04) API: "New" GTK+ Widgets
(07:51:20) joanie: I think we should add the new treeview here btw
(07:51:24) API: I think that we could also include "GTK treeview revamp" here
(07:51:26) joanie: it's not a new widget 
(07:51:27) joanie: lol
(07:51:33) joanie: we share one brain
(07:51:54) API: :P
(07:51:58) API: li
(07:52:03) API: the status is still the same?
(07:52:12) API: "NO PLANS, NO RESOURCES" ?
(07:52:37) li: I am re-reading the mails
(07:52:58) joanie: which mails?
(07:53:11) li: seems I said I can implement the atkhypertext
(07:53:13) API: joanie, that point includes a link
(07:53:18) li: mails about the new widgets
(07:53:19) API: that link goes to a mail
(07:53:23) joanie: ah
(07:53:49) API: well, it is a almost two years old mail ..
(07:53:55) li: so this is a job which gail maintainer should do, which is me :)
(07:54:04) API: well, as we don't have too much time
(07:54:14) API: li, could you take a lookk to this point
(07:54:23) API: and update the information on the wiki
(07:54:27) API: if possible
(07:54:28) API: soon
(07:54:47) li: yes, i can review the new widget and make a plan
(07:54:48) API: just write the status and something similar to a plan
(07:54:59) API: ok, thanks
(07:55:08) API: next point
(07:55:09) API: gnome-panel
(07:55:13) API: well, as we said that
(07:55:14) li: but need time to work on it
(07:55:24) API: well li, at this point 
(07:55:26) API: it is just
(07:55:29) API: update the section
(07:55:30) API: I mean
(07:55:34) API: know the current status
(07:55:48) API: "need time to work on it"
(07:55:54) API: is something that you can write there
(07:56:36) API: well, next item
(07:56:38) API: gnome-panel
(07:56:41) API: as we said before
(07:56:51) API: our main fear
(07:56:58) API: was related with the applets
(07:57:04) API: but
(07:57:09) API: as applets will not be supported
(07:57:30) API: I guess that means that there isn't anything to do here
(07:57:37) API: just mark it as "regression"
(07:57:41) joanie: I think this goes into that fourth category and/or removed
(07:57:57) joanie: btw, the fourth category is called 'regression'?
(07:58:38) API: not sure, we can decide that later
(07:58:48) API: next items
(07:59:03) API: are at-spi2 related
(07:59:07) API: at-spi2-registryd 
(07:59:12) API: pyatspi2 
(07:59:18) API: accessibility bus 
(07:59:24) API: atk-bridge
(07:59:42) API: mgorse, you already did your homework
(07:59:44) API: and updated that
(07:59:48) API: but just one question
(07:59:56) API: current risk
(08:00:02) API: on those items are medium
(08:00:09) API: you still think that?
(08:00:19) API: I mean that you were revamping a lot of thing here
(08:00:27) API: not sure if the risk changed
(08:00:37) mgorse: They were all high originally; I lowered things to medium except for CSPI
(08:01:00) mgorse: It all could still use some more testing
(08:01:25) API: aha, btw
(08:01:31) API: not directly but related
(08:01:45) API: do you know distributions plans for at-spi2/at-spi on the next cycle?
(08:01:58) API: AFAIK, Ubuntu will still use at-spi
(08:02:06) API: do you know something about other distributions?
(08:02:51) mgorse: I don't know off-hand. I'm guessing Fedora will use at-spi2, since mclasen was working on packaging it, but I'm not positive
(08:03:29) API: ok, lets add an action "ask distributions"
(08:03:32) API: sorry for the offtopic
(08:03:33) mgorse: OpenSUSE might be defaulting to AT-SPI2, but the next release isn't going to ship GNOME 3, so I don't know if that makes sense, and I need to check in any case
(08:03:57) API: ok, thanks
(08:04:08) API: well, we are officially out of time
(08:04:29) API: so I will to focus on some specific items
(08:04:35) API: Accerciser
(08:04:52) API: Status: 28-Oct-2010: Brian lowered the risk to medium based on better understanding of the required changes and information from people who are running with DBUS
(08:05:28) API: but the fact is that seems that Brian is too busy to test it with GNOME 3 stack
(08:05:48) API: last days several people found issues using that on GNOME 3
(08:06:10) API: so I would add a action : "ask brian if it makes sense to increase the risk"
(08:06:21) API: Dasher
(08:06:42) API: action: sent a personal mail to patrick to update that section
(08:06:51) API: Caribou
(08:06:56) API: action: the same
(08:07:03) API: (but to Eitan)
(08:07:05) joanie: for clarification
(08:07:08) joanie: send or sent?
(08:07:11) API: ups
(08:07:12) API: sorry
(08:07:14) API: yes
(08:07:18) API: send
(08:07:21) joanie: thanks
(08:07:23) API: we still need to do that
(08:07:24) ***joanie is writing minutes
(08:07:34) API: other clarification is that in the case of Caribou
(08:07:48) API: it seems that Heidi students will no longer work on that
(08:07:52) API: not sure why
(08:08:03) API: but that means less people working on Caribou
(08:08:08) joanie: Based on my email or based on something else?
(08:08:28) API: joanie, on your email
(08:08:38) joanie: and I just chatted with one student
(08:08:52) aleiva: what's the problem? lack of direction?
(08:08:57) joanie: perhaps we should touch base with Heidi
(08:09:07) joanie: aleiva: yeah
(08:09:14) joanie: and follow through
(08:09:23) joanie: and being around
(08:09:41) joanie: aleiva: next cycle (not this one) I'd like to take some of Heidi's students
(08:09:49) joanie: we just can't deal with it this cycle IMHO
(08:09:50) API: ah ok, I misundestood you, sorry
(08:10:04) API: joanie, take some to Orca?
(08:10:05) joanie: API well, your impression is my impression
(08:10:12) joanie: but we do not know this from Heidi
(08:10:17) joanie: yes re Orca
(08:10:22) joanie: but for after GNOME 3
(08:10:38) joanie: Now that we have aleiva, I think I could do some mentoring with aleiva backing me up
(08:10:51) joanie: when needed on technical/architectural decisions
(08:11:00) joanie: I'm used to having grad students (day job)
(08:11:08) joanie: undergrads are less snarky 
(08:11:09) joanie: ;-)
(08:11:33) joanie: my point is, I'll do outreachy studenty stuff with that college
(08:11:38) aleiva: seems good to me, it's a pity to lose that manpower and future contributors
(08:11:39) joanie: after we survive gnome 3
(08:11:47) joanie: aleiva: we're not going to lose them
(08:11:53) joanie: we (Orca) are going to gain them
(08:11:54) joanie: ;-)
(08:12:11) joanie: in the meantime, I think OCRFeeder might be an interesting possibility for them to work on
(08:12:11) aleiva: well, I was talking about the current situation not the future situation, anyway moving on :-)
(08:12:28) API: ok, 12 minutes over time
(08:12:35) API: lets go back to the GNOME 3 review
(08:12:40) joanie: sorry
(08:13:02) API: np, I was the one that mentioned that offtopic
(08:13:09) API: gnome-mag GNOME Shell Magnification
(08:13:17) API: joanie, any update
(08:13:26) API: (as fer and clown are not here ...)
(08:13:30) joanie: I thought Joseph updated the latter
(08:13:56) joanie: determining what happens with gnome-mag is still something we need to sort out
(08:14:05) joanie: it's only for fallback mode
(08:14:15) API: ah true
(08:14:16) joanie: and I'm trying to figure out what is going on downstream
(08:14:25) API: ok, so action
(08:14:33) API: send a mail to Fer Herrera about gnome-mag
(08:14:46) API: pointing him joseph update
(08:14:58) joanie: I'll take that one if you take Caribou and Dasher
(08:15:02) API: ok, thanks
(08:15:06) API: nex item
(08:15:07) API: orca
(08:15:15) API: joanie, well you already did your homework
(08:15:43) API: 15 minutes over time, I will simplify
(08:15:48) API: gdm
(08:15:56) API: anyone knows the status of this for GNOME 3?
(08:16:17) joanie: only that Orca users are starting to ask about it
(08:17:57) API: ask like "hey, why gdm doesn't work at all?" or ask like "what about gdm?"?
(08:18:11) joanie: half way in between if I recall correctly :-)
(08:18:22) joanie: I think something wasn't working right, and they wanted info/docs
(08:19:03) API: well, so I guess that the action will be
(08:19:10) API: contact some of the key contact
(08:19:22) API: probably Brian Cameron is a good candidate
(08:19:25) API: as he has a11y experience
(08:21:14) API: next item
(08:21:17) API: evince
(08:21:30) API: danigm also did his homework
(08:21:36) API: hmm
(08:21:53) danigm: there's some patchs waiting for revision/aproval
(08:21:57) API: danigm, it would be possible a more abstract description of the state?
(08:22:12) API: I mean, bug numbers are good
(08:22:20) API: but requires to check bugzilla
(08:22:35) API: would be possible a brief description of the current state and next steps?
(08:22:45) danigm: ok, I'll change that
(08:22:46) API: something like "this is working, this not" ?
(08:22:55) API: well, you don't need to change it
(08:23:02) API: other sections also have bug numbers
(08:23:10) API: just extra information
(08:23:45) danigm: ok
(08:23:52) API: danigm, ok thanks
(08:24:00) API: well, last medium risk item
(08:24:01) API: ldtp
(08:24:06) API: I guess that the status is the same
(08:24:49) API: well, 25 over time
(08:25:00) API: and just low risk items here
(08:25:06) API: so I vote for conclude the review
(08:25:12) aleiva: o/ +1
(08:25:14) joanie: +1
(08:25:17) API: and just open miscellaneous time
(08:25:22) joanie: \o
(08:25:32) API: just in case someone wants to say something quick and important
(08:25:38) joanie: miscellaneous: Q$s are techically already overdue
(08:25:41) joanie: write 'em
(08:25:45) joanie: (done)
(08:26:04) API: Q$?
(08:26:10) API: ah
(08:26:12) API: Q4
(08:26:31) API: ok, yes, remember that msanchez already started the page
(08:26:36) joanie: yay!
(08:26:43) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q4
(08:26:47) API: fill it please
(08:26:57) API: well, 
(08:27:02) API: so meeting over!!
(08:27:06) API: thanks for your presence
(08:27:13) API: sorry for that extra 25 minutes
(08:27:13) aleiva: thanks guys!
(08:27:15) joanie: thanks for chairing
(08:27:22) API: and sorry for the rush-mode for the minutes
(08:27:28) API: for the meeting I mean
(08:27:28) li: thanks everyone