1 Conversation with #a11y-meeting
   2 
   3 (15:01:23) ***clown waves 'hello'
   4 (15:01:30) codo: hello
   5 (15:01:35) codo: only 5 :( ?
   6 (15:01:57) clown: and no chair ('api').
   7 (15:02:11) codo: :)
   8 (15:02:39) clown: unless joanie is going to chair?
   9 (15:02:42) joanie: I'm chair
  10 (15:02:51) joanie: API is traveling on business
  11 (15:02:52) michaelwigle [~michaelwi@214.239.196.216.DED-DSL.fuse.net] entered the room.
  12 (15:02:58) ***clown boggles at his good guess
  13 (15:03:04) bnitz2 [~bn128650@gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com] entered the room.
  14 (15:03:51) joanie: We'll give people a bit more time to wander in since it's a different room
  15 (15:04:01) joanie: but the event-filled agenda is here: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
  16 (15:07:01) joanie: Alrighty then. Let's get started
  17 (15:07:20) joanie: But I'm going to change the order because Louis (or aleiva) were going to talk about FOSDEM
  18 (15:07:23) joanie: and Louis isn't here
  19 (15:07:30) joanie: and aleiva doesn't seem to be present
  20 (15:07:54) joanie: And....
  21 (15:08:19) joanie: Eitan said he'd email me or the list what he needed me to pass along for CSUN
  22 (15:08:38) joanie: And that has not occurred either. Super. :-)
  23 (15:09:07) joanie: So I'm going to start with Atk hackfest and hope others materialize
  24 (15:09:24) joanie: API has started a site http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011
  25 (15:09:39) joanie: We've picked out the location (Igalia) and the Dates (9-15 May)
  26 (15:09:43) ***clown reads
  27 (15:10:05) ***joanie lets people read
  28 (15:11:18) joanie: So the next step is for API or me (it will be me) to email the must-have attendees (e.g. Malte from the OOo team, mgorse, etc.) and be sure the date works for them
  29 (15:11:25) joanie: and we go from there.
  30 (15:11:40) fer: ok, 9-15...
  31 (15:11:48) joanie: API is trying to find us additional, local/Spanish funding so that we don't have to tap into the GNOME budget
  32 (15:12:15) joanie: fer, yup. Turns out the alternative week has a local (Galician literature day) holiday
  33 (15:12:18) joanie: on the 17th
  34 (15:12:45) joanie: So I figured that the week after would be the week I'd go down to work with aleiva
  35 (15:13:03) joanie: and if you want to do some Orca+Gecko hacking that week, you're welcome to join us
  36 (15:13:04) fer: 17-23?
  37 (15:13:10) ***joanie nods
  38 (15:13:17) joanie: or the 22nd
  39 (15:13:18) joanie: but yeah
  40 (15:13:42) fer: that is eastern vacation here
  41 (15:13:46) fer: but it'd work for me
  42 (15:13:49) joanie: no
  43 (15:13:52) joanie: in May?
  44 (15:13:57) joanie: I thought that was in April
  45 (15:14:03) fer: 21-22 Apr
  46 (15:14:06) fer: way
  47 (15:14:08) fer: May!
  48 (15:14:10) fer: ok sorry
  49 (15:14:11) fer: hahaha
  50 (15:14:12) joanie: and we're talking about may
  51 (15:14:13) joanie: :-P
  52 (15:14:15) joanie: goofy
  53 (15:14:19) fer: may would be perfect for me then
  54 (15:14:22) joanie: Super
  55 (15:14:33) bnitz2: It would be nice to see something in the agenda/goal section. joanie, did you ever send out your postmortem for the October hackfest?
  56 (15:15:08) joanie: sorry my keyboard stopped talking to my box
  57 (15:15:20) joanie: bnitz2: regarding an agenda, that goes without saying
  58 (15:15:35) joanie: I believe I stated that API had *STARTED* a page :-)
  59 (15:16:09) joanie: bnitz2: We figured you'd be good to have there for the testing side of things, so hopefully those dates work for you, but the email will be forthcoming
  60 (15:16:33) joanie: As for the postmortem, the parties to do the dissection never came together
  61 (15:16:46) joanie: but I have my own thoughts on where things failed
  62 (15:16:55) joanie: mostly I shall keep them to myself
  63 (15:16:57) joanie: ;-)
  64 (15:17:09) joanie: But suffice it to say on this hackfest:
  65 (15:17:25) joanie: The locale has reliable resources (both people and infrastructure, including net)
  66 (15:17:34) joanie: And we are going to be very, very focused
  67 (15:17:42) joanie: including a schedule, goals, and objectives
  68 (15:17:57) joanie: and we are going to accomplish what we set out to do if it kills me
  69 (15:17:58) joanie: ;-)
  70 (15:18:15) joanie: So I think this hackfest will be much more productive outcome wize
  71 (15:18:26) bnitz2: excellent.
  72 (15:18:33) bnitz2: I did see wifi mentioned on the front page.
  73 (15:18:49) joanie: That was for the hotel
  74 (15:18:52) bnitz2: joanie: Sorry I've been quiet about the upcoming hackfest (and everything). I'm probably not a "must have" but testing should be far enough along that if possible I will try to make it there.
  75 (15:18:57) joanie: Igalia hq of course has wifi :-)
  76 (15:19:04) joanie: no worries
  77 (15:19:09) bnitz2: The dates aren't an issue for me.
  78 (15:19:13) joanie: super!
  79 (15:19:19) joanie: sounds like a party
  80 (15:19:39) joanie: So any other thoughts/questions on AtkHackfest?
  81 (15:20:11) joanie: If not.... I'll work backwards hoping aleiva arrives soon
  82 (15:20:15) joanie: CSUN
  83 (15:20:27) joanie: I pinged Eitan a few minutes ago. No answer.
  84 (15:20:36) joanie: So here's what I personally know:
  85 (15:20:59) joanie: 1. There is a booth. Bryen and Eitan are taking care of that. One or two more bodies are probably still wanted (but I need to check with Eitan)
  86 (15:21:14) joanie: however, the travel budget for a11y is generous but not infinite
  87 (15:21:31) joanie: and we put down a max of three people funded by gnome a11y to go to CSUN
  88 (15:21:39) joanie: Bryen doesn't need funding
  89 (15:21:46) fer: I'm probably going to CSUN, paid by mozilla
  90 (15:21:48) joanie: I *think* we're paying for Eitan
  91 (15:21:51) joanie: yay fer!
  92 (15:21:52) fer: we are waiting for approval
  93 (15:22:00) ***joanie likes travelers who don't need funding
  94 (15:22:02) joanie: :-)
  95 (15:22:02) fer: but I'll be at the mozilla bof I guess :)
  96 (15:22:12) fer: nvda guys are going to be there too
  97 (15:22:35) joanie: I have been volunteered for a panel by Chris Hofstader who had offered funds and then withdrew funds (but left me on the panel)
  98 (15:22:41) joanie: So I have an obligation to go
  99 (15:22:57) joanie: but will almost certainly fly out, present, and fly back
 100 (15:22:59) joanie: :-(
 101 (15:23:14) joanie: And unless airfare is crazy, I'll "eat the cost" myself
 102 (15:23:32) fer: :(
 103 (15:23:57) joanie: So what I think we need (pending our hearing from Eitan) is: If you would like to go to CSUN and if you will need to have GNOME funding to do so, we need to know now
 104 (15:24:04) joanie: And that doesn't mean we can fund you
 105 (15:24:17) joanie: just that we cannot consider you at all if we don't know :-)
 106 (15:24:43) joanie: Therefore, please email us (Eitan, with me CC'ed and API CC'ed) if you fall into the aforementioned category
 107 (15:24:47) joanie: make sense?
 108 (15:25:04) fer: yeah
 109 (15:25:24) joanie: btw, the CSUN session schedule is up
 110 (15:25:29) fer: it's in 2 months, so I think we are in good timing for this
 111 (15:25:31) joanie: and I've linked to it from the agenda
 112 (15:25:35) joanie: fer yes and no
 113 (15:25:53) joanie: We need to plan way ahead -- as we learned working with the travel committee for Sevilla
 114 (15:26:06) joanie: another thing I noted in my personal post mortem of that hackfest
 115 (15:26:23) joanie: We are going to contact -- and sort out -- travel for CSUN *now*
 116 (15:26:24) joanie: ;-)
 117 (15:26:47) ***joanie notes that she has become cranky in her old age
 118 (15:26:54) ***clown old?
 119 (15:26:55) fer: oh oh! now I have just remembered that I have to pay GNOME Foundation for the Seville hotel!
 120 (15:27:01) ***joanie laughs
 121 (15:27:09) joanie: fer talk to me about that after this meeting
 122 (15:27:18) fer: oki
 123 (15:27:21) joanie: :-)
 124 (15:27:28) joanie: So moving up to FOSDEM
 125 (15:27:41) joanie: If aleiva is still not here....
 126 (15:27:55) joanie: I can tell you what I know, but it's little and based on what is publicly known
 127 (15:28:05) ***joanie pokes aleiva
 128 (15:29:02) joanie: In the meantime
 129 (15:29:11) joanie: Turns out there's a list with archives
 130 (15:29:12) joanie: http://lists.fosdem.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-devroom
 131 (15:29:25) joanie: And from there you will see that the presentations have been selected
 132 (15:29:39) joanie: some discussion is taking place w.r.t. the exact names and durations
 133 (15:29:57) joanie: And Louis has suggested that he would post this information ... somewhere. :-)
 134 (15:30:04) joanie: Maybe like on our very own wiki!
 135 (15:30:06) joanie: ;-)
 136 (15:30:15) joanie: So I've this morning suggested he do just that
 137 (15:30:33) joanie: What I would like to do from people planning to go to FOSDEM is: Is funding needed?
 138 (15:30:46) joanie: again three events all back to back and, like, no money.
 139 (15:30:54) joanie: fer: you're going?
 140 (15:30:59) fer: not sure yet
 141 (15:31:05) fer: I was planning to go...
 142 (15:31:06) joanie: if you go will you need funding?
 143 (15:31:13) fer: nah
 144 (15:31:21) joanie: bnitz2: going?
 145 (15:31:24) fer: I can pay it myself because should be quite cheap from spain
 146 (15:31:25) bnitz2: no
 147 (15:31:30) joanie: clown: ?
 148 (15:31:35) joanie: michaelwigle: ? codo?
 149 (15:31:44) fer: ~70 EUR flight + ~50/70 shared accommodation
 150 (15:31:50) joanie: nice!
 151 (15:31:52) aleiva: i
 152 (15:31:54) aleiva: hi
 153 (15:31:57) clown: joanie: wasn't planning to go.
 154 (15:31:57) aleiva: sorry for being late
 155 (15:32:00) ***joanie smiles at aleiva
 156 (15:32:01) michaelwigle: Hi Joanie. I don't understand the question.
 157 (15:32:02) codo: joanie: heh im just a new guy who is hanging around. and haven't started on anything :)
 158 (15:32:05) codo: may be next time :)
 159 (15:32:14) joanie: okay codo thanks
 160 (15:32:22) joanie: aleiva: you need fosdem funding?
 161 (15:32:22) codo: but yes thanks :D
 162 (15:32:33) joanie: and anything to add to what I stated above?
 163 (15:32:57) aleiva: aleiva: nop, my company is going to pay my to go to FOSDEM
 164 (15:33:22) codo: aleiva: :O
 165 (15:33:28) codo: aleiva: which awesome company is that ?
 166 (15:33:38) codo: ah brussels :)
 167 (15:33:40) codo: awesome it is
 168 (15:33:49) aleiva: codo: Emergya
 169 (15:33:51) ***codo just checked out fosdem page
 170 (15:33:54) aleiva: anyway
 171 (15:33:57) joanie: aleiva: anyway
 172 (15:33:59) codo: interesteing.
 173 (15:34:09) joanie: aleiva: anything to add about the talks?
 174 (15:35:26) aleiva: joanie: nope, it's all here http://lists.fosdem.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-devroom
 175 (15:35:34) ***joanie nods
 176 (15:35:41) aleiva: joanie: we're finishing the final schedule
 177 (15:35:41) joanie: okie dokie
 178 (15:35:42) michaelwigle: joanie: Sorry, I see you were asking if I was going to FOSDEM. I would mosre likely have made it to CSUN as you used to present there frequently. But I don't think I'm getting sent this year.
 179 (15:36:04) joanie: michaelwigle: understood.
 180 (15:36:07) tbsaunde [~tbsaunde@GHC25.GHC.ANDREW.CMU.EDU] entered the room.
 181 (15:36:08) aleiva: joanie: after finished it, it'll be published at FOSDEM site AFAIK
 182 (15:36:10) michaelwigle: I used to present there. Not you. 
 183 (15:36:30) joanie: aleiva: Okay. Well, it should be posted *somewhere*
 184 (15:36:36) joanie: and having it on our wiki might be nice
 185 (15:36:42) aleiva: joanie: ok
 186 (15:36:43) joanie: but I'm not going to worry about it too much
 187 (15:36:52) aleiva: joanie: make sense to me
 188 (15:36:57) joanie: if it's on the FOSDEM site, let's get a link on our wiki to it
 189 (15:37:10) joanie: it's too difficult to keep track of all this stuff when it's scattered about
 190 (15:37:27) joanie: So to summarize the list of events stuff
 191 (15:37:35) joanie: If you need funding, API and I need to know NOW
 192 (15:37:41) joanie: :-)
 193 (15:37:47) joanie: moving on
 194 (15:38:05) joanie: API and I discovered that we have Gail in two places in bugzilla
 195 (15:38:08) joanie: that's silly and confusing
 196 (15:38:43) joanie: Since Gail is part of Gtk+ and no longer it's own stand alone beast, does anyone here object to removing it as a component from Atk (in bugzilla)?
 197 (15:39:36) aleiva: not here
 198 (15:39:49) joanie: clown: fer: ?
 199 (15:39:56) joanie: going once, going twice.... :-)
 200 (15:39:58) clown: fine with me (removing it).
 201 (15:40:04) fer: same
 202 (15:40:07) joanie: awesome
 203 (15:40:10) fer: as long as we move bugs and so
 204 (15:40:16) ***joanie nods
 205 (15:40:17) clown: and keep history.
 206 (15:40:34) joanie: We'll just transfer it over to the new (already existing) location/component
 207 (15:40:45) clown: awesome
 208 (15:40:57) joanie: So conclusion: Joanie will ask Li to remove it, transfering existing bugs over to Gtk+/Gail
 209 (15:41:03) joanie: More administrivia
 210 (15:41:07) joanie: Quarterly reports
 211 (15:41:15) joanie: We actually got included this time
 212 (15:41:16) joanie: yay!
 213 (15:41:17) joanie: :-)
 214 (15:41:25) joanie: http://foundation.gnome.org/reports/gnome-report-2010-Q3.html
 215 (15:41:35) joanie: Funny what happens when you turn in reports on time
 216 (15:41:37) joanie: ;-)
 217 (15:42:01) joanie: Anyway, the Q4's are going to be due soon. And as a couple of folks already saw, msanchez started a new page
 218 (15:42:10) joanie: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q4
 219 (15:42:10) aleiva: what's the due date?
 220 (15:42:18) joanie: aleiva: I don't know yet
 221 (15:42:24) joanie: aleiva: but I'll draft Orca's soon
 222 (15:42:34) joanie: and hunt down a due date from the board folks
 223 (15:42:46) aleiva: joanie: nice, thanks
 224 (15:43:17) joanie: so any additional thoughts/questions about administrivia?
 225 (15:43:20) aleiva: clown: oh nice to see you're digging in shaders
 226 (15:43:31) aleiva: sorry for the noise :-)
 227 (15:43:35) joanie: if not, API's miscellaneous time
 228 (15:43:36) clown: aleiva: yes, they are cool.
 229 (15:43:37) aleiva: joanie: plese go on
 230 (15:43:45) joanie: no worries aleiva, it's miscellaneous time
 231 (15:43:52) joanie: mingle amongst yourselves ;-)
 232 (15:44:04) joanie: anyone have any agenda item they'd like to bring up?
 233 (15:44:34) fer: gtk treeview testing? :)
 234 (15:44:34) aleiva: finally who is going to fosdem from gnome's a11y?
 235 (15:44:42) michaelwigle: Not an agenda item but if this is a good time I just wanted to say hi and that I'm hoping to become more involved with a11y in Gnome.
 236 (15:44:50) fer: I miss the other meeting, but didn't see anything about it on the minutes
 237 (15:44:53) aleiva: hi michaelwigle :-)
 238 (15:44:58) clown: welcome michaelwigle 
 239 (15:45:02) bnitz2: michaelwigle:Excellent!
 240 (15:45:02) joanie: fer lemme look
 241 (15:45:08) API [~API@63.133.153.66] entered the room.
 242 (15:45:14) aleiva: hi API 
 243 (15:45:16) ***clown waves at API
 244 (15:45:27) codo: michaelwigle: ditto me also :)
 245 (15:45:30) codo: michaelwigle: hi also.
 246 (15:45:40) joanie: Fer it's under GNOME 3.0
 247 (15:45:47) joanie: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20100106#GNOME_3.0
 248 (15:46:09) joanie: Basically, Li has volunteered to take a look (yes, the rest of us should as well)
 249 (15:46:37) joanie: aleiva: what we know about fosdem in this room is up above in the history
 250 (15:46:40) fer: nice
 251 (15:46:45) joanie: unless API knows something more
 252 (15:46:52) ***API sorry, I arrived 20 minutes late, and then I was 20 minutes waiting on the a11y channel
 253 (15:47:07) joanie: API do you have any 'miscellaneous' items to add
 254 (15:47:11) API: joanie, something about?
 255 (15:47:30) joanie: something about FOSDEM
 256 (15:47:32) API: ah
 257 (15:47:33) joanie: who all is going
 258 (15:47:42) API: well, I'm going
 259 (15:47:43) API: afaik
 260 (15:47:43) joanie: we talked about this while aleiva was here but not here
 261 (15:47:49) API: and also other igalians
 262 (15:47:53) API: like joaquim or mario sanchez
 263 (15:48:16) ***joanie nods
 264 (15:49:03) joanie: anything else?
 265 (15:49:26) ***API wonders if we are reviewing any point on the agenda or on miscellaneous time
 266 (15:49:40) joanie: nope. I think we got through the agenda
 267 (15:49:52) joanie: in large part because Eitan didn't provide CSUN updates as he said he would
 268 (15:49:53) ***clown is amazed :-)
 269 (15:50:01) joanie: and Louis didn't come to talk about FOSDEM
 270 (15:50:10) joanie: so I did it in my brief, here's-the-deal fashion
 271 (15:50:11) joanie: ;-)
 272 (15:50:21) joanie: so if you have anything to add API the floor is yours
 273 (15:50:40) API: joanie, well, as you have the meeting scepter, could you make official miscellaneous time?
 274 (15:50:50) joanie: I did already API
 275 (15:50:53) joanie: you missed it :-P
 276 (15:51:03) API: yep, sorry again
 277 (15:51:09) joanie: (15:43:35) joanie: if not, API's miscellaneous time
 278 (15:51:20) API: well as miscellaneous item
 279 (15:51:31) API: during these weeks I have been working on Unity
 280 (15:51:35) API: accessibility
 281 (15:51:41) API: more info here
 282 (15:51:44) API: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-unity-a11y
 283 (15:51:52) aleiva: API: nice
 284 (15:52:00) ***joanie cheers
 285 (15:52:03) API: (this is an old one, created by TheMuso I guess, on the last UDS)
 286 (15:52:14) API: and I have already some starting branches
 287 (15:52:16) API: https://code.launchpad.net/~apinheiro/unity/
 288 (15:52:21) API: as summary
 289 (15:52:40) API: Unity made a "mutter to compiz" migration
 290 (15:52:53) API: so they stopped to use clutter
 291 (15:53:04) API: losing the a11y support for cally
 292 (15:53:12) API: so they are in a worse state that gnome-shell
 293 (15:53:27) API: anyway, in this case Im not alone
 294 (15:53:38) API: TheMuso is working on the integration with the plattform part
 295 (15:53:46) API: and reviewing the user interaction and so on
 296 (15:53:56) API: and Rodrigo Moya will also work on the ATK layer
 297 (15:54:22) API: anyway, right now Im not sure how longer I will be working here
 298 (15:54:32) API: and about how this would affect gnome-shell
 299 (15:54:41) API: right now gnome-shell patches are in "review mode"
 300 (15:54:48) joanie: here == the project or here == the States
 301 (15:55:01) API: here == the project
 302 (15:55:03) API: sorry
 303 (15:55:05) ***joanie nods
 304 (15:55:25) API: for the moment some weeks more, and if the things goes well some months more
 305 (15:55:31) API: I was saying ...
 306 (15:55:33) API: ah
 307 (15:55:35) API: yeah
 308 (15:55:38) API: gnome-shell
 309 (15:55:40) joanie: I saw your email to the list about the patches
 310 (15:55:43) API: this week I updated 
 311 (15:55:55) API: the three a11y related gnome-shell patches
 312 (15:56:10) API: hmm, although I have still pending update my hacky orca patch
 313 (15:56:14) API: and create a bug
 314 (15:56:23) API: bug related to the cally script
 315 (15:56:35) API: in order to be more flexible announcing selection changes
 316 (15:56:37) joanie: since we have NO hacks in Orca, I'm not sure if that will be acceptable :-P :-P :-P
 317 (15:56:38) API: anyway
 318 (15:56:45) API: what I tried to say
 319 (15:56:54) joanie: you get us a patch that gets things working API and we'll not delay including it
 320 (15:57:02) API: is that I thing that this work wouldn't affect too much to the gnome-shell work
 321 (15:57:09) aleiva: no workarounds allowed :-)
 322 (15:57:10) aleiva: :-D
 323 (15:57:20) API: well, I think that im done
 324 (15:57:25) joanie: you review my patch yet aleiva? :-P
 325 (15:57:34) API: and that I mostly consumed miscellaneous time
 326 (15:57:35) aleiva: API: how is the integration of glib into compiz?
 327 (15:57:40) joanie: Thanks API. On the one hand, what happens downstream is not our (official) problem. But on the other hand, we've got a TON of ubuntu users. So, I for one am really glad y'all are doing this work.
 328 (15:57:53) aleiva: joanie: workarounds are not allowed
 329 (15:57:55) API: aha, well, yes, but I think that it is worth to comment
 330 (15:58:02) API: as a lateral thing
 331 (15:58:41) API: after all we mention that here
 332 (15:58:43) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#Other_.28non-GNOME_3.0.29_Issues
 333 (15:59:03) API: btw it is still required to create that page "parallel things but not gnome 3.0 real things"
 334 (15:59:07) API: to include that
 335 (15:59:10) ***joanie nods
 336 (15:59:16) API: aleiva, about the integration of glib into compiz
 337 (15:59:18) joanie: I can do that if you'd like API
 338 (15:59:24) API: unity also requires it
 339 (15:59:35) API: and Im using a branch that supports that
 340 (15:59:47) API: and AFAIK natty compiz packages have it
 341 (16:00:10) joanie: It would be nice to see it upstream
 342 (16:00:13) API: don't know if this is also true on the upstream compiz reposiroty
 343 (16:00:17) API: repository
 344 (16:00:34) joanie: Kristian (eZoom and Compiz guy) is supposed to find out
 345 (16:00:39) aleiva: yup
 346 (16:00:51) joanie: although having said that, Compiz and gnome-shell are mutually exclusive
 347 (16:00:52) aleiva: we're waiting for that happens
 348 (16:01:15) joanie: so it might make sense for eZoom a11y work to begin using Natty since API has already been using it successfully
 349 (16:01:36) joanie: anyhoo, noting the just-past-the-hour time....
 350 (16:01:44) joanie: anything else official to include?
 351 (16:01:58) aleiva: API: so can I use AT-SPI in unity to query widgets/elements and receive and ATK representation?
 352 (16:02:05) aleiva: joanie: not from my side
 353 (16:02:19) ***joanie raises the gavel
 354 (16:02:22) aleiva: API: so can I use AT-SPI in unity to query widgets/elements and receive an ATK representation?
 355 (16:02:42) ***joanie bangs the gavel
 356 (16:02:49) joanie: meeting adjourned. Thanks for coming!