Conversation with #a11y-meeting

(15:01:23) ***clown waves 'hello'
(15:01:30) codo: hello
(15:01:35) codo: only 5 :( ?
(15:01:57) clown: and no chair ('api').
(15:02:11) codo: :)
(15:02:39) clown: unless joanie is going to chair?
(15:02:42) joanie: I'm chair
(15:02:51) joanie: API is traveling on business
(15:02:52) michaelwigle [~michaelwi@214.239.196.216.DED-DSL.fuse.net] entered the room.
(15:02:58) ***clown boggles at his good guess
(15:03:04) bnitz2 [~bn128650@gmp-ea-fw-1.sun.com] entered the room.
(15:03:51) joanie: We'll give people a bit more time to wander in since it's a different room
(15:04:01) joanie: but the event-filled agenda is here: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
(15:07:01) joanie: Alrighty then. Let's get started
(15:07:20) joanie: But I'm going to change the order because Louis (or aleiva) were going to talk about FOSDEM
(15:07:23) joanie: and Louis isn't here
(15:07:30) joanie: and aleiva doesn't seem to be present
(15:07:54) joanie: And....
(15:08:19) joanie: Eitan said he'd email me or the list what he needed me to pass along for CSUN
(15:08:38) joanie: And that has not occurred either. Super. :-)
(15:09:07) joanie: So I'm going to start with Atk hackfest and hope others materialize
(15:09:24) joanie: API has started a site http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/ATK2011
(15:09:39) joanie: We've picked out the location (Igalia) and the Dates (9-15 May)
(15:09:43) ***clown reads
(15:10:05) ***joanie lets people read
(15:11:18) joanie: So the next step is for API or me (it will be me) to email the must-have attendees (e.g. Malte from the OOo team, mgorse, etc.) and be sure the date works for them
(15:11:25) joanie: and we go from there.
(15:11:40) fer: ok, 9-15...
(15:11:48) joanie: API is trying to find us additional, local/Spanish funding so that we don't have to tap into the GNOME budget
(15:12:15) joanie: fer, yup. Turns out the alternative week has a local (Galician literature day) holiday
(15:12:18) joanie: on the 17th
(15:12:45) joanie: So I figured that the week after would be the week I'd go down to work with aleiva
(15:13:03) joanie: and if you want to do some Orca+Gecko hacking that week, you're welcome to join us
(15:13:04) fer: 17-23?
(15:13:10) ***joanie nods
(15:13:17) joanie: or the 22nd
(15:13:18) joanie: but yeah
(15:13:42) fer: that is eastern vacation here
(15:13:46) fer: but it'd work for me
(15:13:49) joanie: no
(15:13:52) joanie: in May?
(15:13:57) joanie: I thought that was in April
(15:14:03) fer: 21-22 Apr
(15:14:06) fer: way
(15:14:08) fer: May!
(15:14:10) fer: ok sorry
(15:14:11) fer: hahaha
(15:14:12) joanie: and we're talking about may
(15:14:13) joanie: :-P
(15:14:15) joanie: goofy
(15:14:19) fer: may would be perfect for me then
(15:14:22) joanie: Super
(15:14:33) bnitz2: It would be nice to see something in the agenda/goal section. joanie, did you ever send out your postmortem for the October hackfest?
(15:15:08) joanie: sorry my keyboard stopped talking to my box
(15:15:20) joanie: bnitz2: regarding an agenda, that goes without saying
(15:15:35) joanie: I believe I stated that API had *STARTED* a page :-)
(15:16:09) joanie: bnitz2: We figured you'd be good to have there for the testing side of things, so hopefully those dates work for you, but the email will be forthcoming
(15:16:33) joanie: As for the postmortem, the parties to do the dissection never came together
(15:16:46) joanie: but I have my own thoughts on where things failed
(15:16:55) joanie: mostly I shall keep them to myself
(15:16:57) joanie: ;-)
(15:17:09) joanie: But suffice it to say on this hackfest:
(15:17:25) joanie: The locale has reliable resources (both people and infrastructure, including net)
(15:17:34) joanie: And we are going to be very, very focused
(15:17:42) joanie: including a schedule, goals, and objectives
(15:17:57) joanie: and we are going to accomplish what we set out to do if it kills me
(15:17:58) joanie: ;-)
(15:18:15) joanie: So I think this hackfest will be much more productive outcome wize
(15:18:26) bnitz2: excellent.
(15:18:33) bnitz2: I did see wifi mentioned on the front page.
(15:18:49) joanie: That was for the hotel
(15:18:52) bnitz2: joanie: Sorry I've been quiet about the upcoming hackfest (and everything). I'm probably not a "must have" but testing should be far enough along that if possible I will try to make it there.
(15:18:57) joanie: Igalia hq of course has wifi :-)
(15:19:04) joanie: no worries
(15:19:09) bnitz2: The dates aren't an issue for me.
(15:19:13) joanie: super!
(15:19:19) joanie: sounds like a party
(15:19:39) joanie: So any other thoughts/questions on AtkHackfest?
(15:20:11) joanie: If not.... I'll work backwards hoping aleiva arrives soon
(15:20:15) joanie: CSUN
(15:20:27) joanie: I pinged Eitan a few minutes ago. No answer.
(15:20:36) joanie: So here's what I personally know:
(15:20:59) joanie: 1. There is a booth. Bryen and Eitan are taking care of that. One or two more bodies are probably still wanted (but I need to check with Eitan)
(15:21:14) joanie: however, the travel budget for a11y is generous but not infinite
(15:21:31) joanie: and we put down a max of three people funded by gnome a11y to go to CSUN
(15:21:39) joanie: Bryen doesn't need funding
(15:21:46) fer: I'm probably going to CSUN, paid by mozilla
(15:21:48) joanie: I *think* we're paying for Eitan
(15:21:51) joanie: yay fer!
(15:21:52) fer: we are waiting for approval
(15:22:00) ***joanie likes travelers who don't need funding
(15:22:02) joanie: :-)
(15:22:02) fer: but I'll be at the mozilla bof I guess :)
(15:22:12) fer: nvda guys are going to be there too
(15:22:35) joanie: I have been volunteered for a panel by Chris Hofstader who had offered funds and then withdrew funds (but left me on the panel)
(15:22:41) joanie: So I have an obligation to go
(15:22:57) joanie: but will almost certainly fly out, present, and fly back
(15:22:59) joanie: :-(
(15:23:14) joanie: And unless airfare is crazy, I'll "eat the cost" myself
(15:23:32) fer: :(
(15:23:57) joanie: So what I think we need (pending our hearing from Eitan) is: If you would like to go to CSUN and if you will need to have GNOME funding to do so, we need to know now
(15:24:04) joanie: And that doesn't mean we can fund you
(15:24:17) joanie: just that we cannot consider you at all if we don't know :-)
(15:24:43) joanie: Therefore, please email us (Eitan, with me CC'ed and API CC'ed) if you fall into the aforementioned category
(15:24:47) joanie: make sense?
(15:25:04) fer: yeah
(15:25:24) joanie: btw, the CSUN session schedule is up
(15:25:29) fer: it's in 2 months, so I think we are in good timing for this
(15:25:31) joanie: and I've linked to it from the agenda
(15:25:35) joanie: fer yes and no
(15:25:53) joanie: We need to plan way ahead -- as we learned working with the travel committee for Sevilla
(15:26:06) joanie: another thing I noted in my personal post mortem of that hackfest
(15:26:23) joanie: We are going to contact -- and sort out -- travel for CSUN *now*
(15:26:24) joanie: ;-)
(15:26:47) ***joanie notes that she has become cranky in her old age
(15:26:54) ***clown old?
(15:26:55) fer: oh oh! now I have just remembered that I have to pay GNOME Foundation for the Seville hotel!
(15:27:01) ***joanie laughs
(15:27:09) joanie: fer talk to me about that after this meeting
(15:27:18) fer: oki
(15:27:21) joanie: :-)
(15:27:28) joanie: So moving up to FOSDEM
(15:27:41) joanie: If aleiva is still not here....
(15:27:55) joanie: I can tell you what I know, but it's little and based on what is publicly known
(15:28:05) ***joanie pokes aleiva
(15:29:02) joanie: In the meantime
(15:29:11) joanie: Turns out there's a list with archives
(15:29:12) joanie: http://lists.fosdem.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-devroom
(15:29:25) joanie: And from there you will see that the presentations have been selected
(15:29:39) joanie: some discussion is taking place w.r.t. the exact names and durations
(15:29:57) joanie: And Louis has suggested that he would post this information ... somewhere. :-)
(15:30:04) joanie: Maybe like on our very own wiki!
(15:30:06) joanie: ;-)
(15:30:15) joanie: So I've this morning suggested he do just that
(15:30:33) joanie: What I would like to do from people planning to go to FOSDEM is: Is funding needed?
(15:30:46) joanie: again three events all back to back and, like, no money.
(15:30:54) joanie: fer: you're going?
(15:30:59) fer: not sure yet
(15:31:05) fer: I was planning to go...
(15:31:06) joanie: if you go will you need funding?
(15:31:13) fer: nah
(15:31:21) joanie: bnitz2: going?
(15:31:24) fer: I can pay it myself because should be quite cheap from spain
(15:31:25) bnitz2: no
(15:31:30) joanie: clown: ?
(15:31:35) joanie: michaelwigle: ? codo?
(15:31:44) fer: ~70 EUR flight + ~50/70 shared accommodation
(15:31:50) joanie: nice!
(15:31:52) aleiva: i
(15:31:54) aleiva: hi
(15:31:57) clown: joanie: wasn't planning to go.
(15:31:57) aleiva: sorry for being late
(15:32:00) ***joanie smiles at aleiva
(15:32:01) michaelwigle: Hi Joanie. I don't understand the question.
(15:32:02) codo: joanie: heh im just a new guy who is hanging around. and haven't started on anything :)
(15:32:05) codo: may be next time :)
(15:32:14) joanie: okay codo thanks
(15:32:22) joanie: aleiva: you need fosdem funding?
(15:32:22) codo: but yes thanks :D
(15:32:33) joanie: and anything to add to what I stated above?
(15:32:57) aleiva: aleiva: nop, my company is going to pay my to go to FOSDEM
(15:33:22) codo: aleiva: :O
(15:33:28) codo: aleiva: which awesome company is that ?
(15:33:38) codo: ah brussels :)
(15:33:40) codo: awesome it is
(15:33:49) aleiva: codo: Emergya
(15:33:51) ***codo just checked out fosdem page
(15:33:54) aleiva: anyway
(15:33:57) joanie: aleiva: anyway
(15:33:59) codo: interesteing.
(15:34:09) joanie: aleiva: anything to add about the talks?
(15:35:26) aleiva: joanie: nope, it's all here http://lists.fosdem.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-devroom
(15:35:34) ***joanie nods
(15:35:41) aleiva: joanie: we're finishing the final schedule
(15:35:41) joanie: okie dokie
(15:35:42) michaelwigle: joanie: Sorry, I see you were asking if I was going to FOSDEM. I would mosre likely have made it to CSUN as you used to present there frequently. But I don't think I'm getting sent this year.
(15:36:04) joanie: michaelwigle: understood.
(15:36:07) tbsaunde [~tbsaunde@GHC25.GHC.ANDREW.CMU.EDU] entered the room.
(15:36:08) aleiva: joanie: after finished it, it'll be published at FOSDEM site AFAIK
(15:36:10) michaelwigle: I used to present there. Not you. 
(15:36:30) joanie: aleiva: Okay. Well, it should be posted *somewhere*
(15:36:36) joanie: and having it on our wiki might be nice
(15:36:42) aleiva: joanie: ok
(15:36:43) joanie: but I'm not going to worry about it too much
(15:36:52) aleiva: joanie: make sense to me
(15:36:57) joanie: if it's on the FOSDEM site, let's get a link on our wiki to it
(15:37:10) joanie: it's too difficult to keep track of all this stuff when it's scattered about
(15:37:27) joanie: So to summarize the list of events stuff
(15:37:35) joanie: If you need funding, API and I need to know NOW
(15:37:41) joanie: :-)
(15:37:47) joanie: moving on
(15:38:05) joanie: API and I discovered that we have Gail in two places in bugzilla
(15:38:08) joanie: that's silly and confusing
(15:38:43) joanie: Since Gail is part of Gtk+ and no longer it's own stand alone beast, does anyone here object to removing it as a component from Atk (in bugzilla)?
(15:39:36) aleiva: not here
(15:39:49) joanie: clown: fer: ?
(15:39:56) joanie: going once, going twice.... :-)
(15:39:58) clown: fine with me (removing it).
(15:40:04) fer: same
(15:40:07) joanie: awesome
(15:40:10) fer: as long as we move bugs and so
(15:40:16) ***joanie nods
(15:40:17) clown: and keep history.
(15:40:34) joanie: We'll just transfer it over to the new (already existing) location/component
(15:40:45) clown: awesome
(15:40:57) joanie: So conclusion: Joanie will ask Li to remove it, transfering existing bugs over to Gtk+/Gail
(15:41:03) joanie: More administrivia
(15:41:07) joanie: Quarterly reports
(15:41:15) joanie: We actually got included this time
(15:41:16) joanie: yay!
(15:41:17) joanie: :-)
(15:41:25) joanie: http://foundation.gnome.org/reports/gnome-report-2010-Q3.html
(15:41:35) joanie: Funny what happens when you turn in reports on time
(15:41:37) joanie: ;-)
(15:42:01) joanie: Anyway, the Q4's are going to be due soon. And as a couple of folks already saw, msanchez started a new page
(15:42:10) joanie: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q4
(15:42:10) aleiva: what's the due date?
(15:42:18) joanie: aleiva: I don't know yet
(15:42:24) joanie: aleiva: but I'll draft Orca's soon
(15:42:34) joanie: and hunt down a due date from the board folks
(15:42:46) aleiva: joanie: nice, thanks
(15:43:17) joanie: so any additional thoughts/questions about administrivia?
(15:43:20) aleiva: clown: oh nice to see you're digging in shaders
(15:43:31) aleiva: sorry for the noise :-)
(15:43:35) joanie: if not, API's miscellaneous time
(15:43:36) clown: aleiva: yes, they are cool.
(15:43:37) aleiva: joanie: plese go on
(15:43:45) joanie: no worries aleiva, it's miscellaneous time
(15:43:52) joanie: mingle amongst yourselves ;-)
(15:44:04) joanie: anyone have any agenda item they'd like to bring up?
(15:44:34) fer: gtk treeview testing? :)
(15:44:34) aleiva: finally who is going to fosdem from gnome's a11y?
(15:44:42) michaelwigle: Not an agenda item but if this is a good time I just wanted to say hi and that I'm hoping to become more involved with a11y in Gnome.
(15:44:50) fer: I miss the other meeting, but didn't see anything about it on the minutes
(15:44:53) aleiva: hi michaelwigle :-)
(15:44:58) clown: welcome michaelwigle 
(15:45:02) bnitz2: michaelwigle:Excellent!
(15:45:02) joanie: fer lemme look
(15:45:08) API [~API@63.133.153.66] entered the room.
(15:45:14) aleiva: hi API 
(15:45:16) ***clown waves at API
(15:45:27) codo: michaelwigle: ditto me also :)
(15:45:30) codo: michaelwigle: hi also.
(15:45:40) joanie: Fer it's under GNOME 3.0
(15:45:47) joanie: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20100106#GNOME_3.0
(15:46:09) joanie: Basically, Li has volunteered to take a look (yes, the rest of us should as well)
(15:46:37) joanie: aleiva: what we know about fosdem in this room is up above in the history
(15:46:40) fer: nice
(15:46:45) joanie: unless API knows something more
(15:46:52) ***API sorry, I arrived 20 minutes late, and then I was 20 minutes waiting on the a11y channel
(15:47:07) joanie: API do you have any 'miscellaneous' items to add
(15:47:11) API: joanie, something about?
(15:47:30) joanie: something about FOSDEM
(15:47:32) API: ah
(15:47:33) joanie: who all is going
(15:47:42) API: well, I'm going
(15:47:43) API: afaik
(15:47:43) joanie: we talked about this while aleiva was here but not here
(15:47:49) API: and also other igalians
(15:47:53) API: like joaquim or mario sanchez
(15:48:16) ***joanie nods
(15:49:03) joanie: anything else?
(15:49:26) ***API wonders if we are reviewing any point on the agenda or on miscellaneous time
(15:49:40) joanie: nope. I think we got through the agenda
(15:49:52) joanie: in large part because Eitan didn't provide CSUN updates as he said he would
(15:49:53) ***clown is amazed :-)
(15:50:01) joanie: and Louis didn't come to talk about FOSDEM
(15:50:10) joanie: so I did it in my brief, here's-the-deal fashion
(15:50:11) joanie: ;-)
(15:50:21) joanie: so if you have anything to add API the floor is yours
(15:50:40) API: joanie, well, as you have the meeting scepter, could you make official miscellaneous time?
(15:50:50) joanie: I did already API
(15:50:53) joanie: you missed it :-P
(15:51:03) API: yep, sorry again
(15:51:09) joanie: (15:43:35) joanie: if not, API's miscellaneous time
(15:51:20) API: well as miscellaneous item
(15:51:31) API: during these weeks I have been working on Unity
(15:51:35) API: accessibility
(15:51:41) API: more info here
(15:51:44) API: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-unity-a11y
(15:51:52) aleiva: API: nice
(15:52:00) ***joanie cheers
(15:52:03) API: (this is an old one, created by TheMuso I guess, on the last UDS)
(15:52:14) API: and I have already some starting branches
(15:52:16) API: https://code.launchpad.net/~apinheiro/unity/
(15:52:21) API: as summary
(15:52:40) API: Unity made a "mutter to compiz" migration
(15:52:53) API: so they stopped to use clutter
(15:53:04) API: losing the a11y support for cally
(15:53:12) API: so they are in a worse state that gnome-shell
(15:53:27) API: anyway, in this case Im not alone
(15:53:38) API: TheMuso is working on the integration with the plattform part
(15:53:46) API: and reviewing the user interaction and so on
(15:53:56) API: and Rodrigo Moya will also work on the ATK layer
(15:54:22) API: anyway, right now Im not sure how longer I will be working here
(15:54:32) API: and about how this would affect gnome-shell
(15:54:41) API: right now gnome-shell patches are in "review mode"
(15:54:48) joanie: here == the project or here == the States
(15:55:01) API: here == the project
(15:55:03) API: sorry
(15:55:05) ***joanie nods
(15:55:25) API: for the moment some weeks more, and if the things goes well some months more
(15:55:31) API: I was saying ...
(15:55:33) API: ah
(15:55:35) API: yeah
(15:55:38) API: gnome-shell
(15:55:40) joanie: I saw your email to the list about the patches
(15:55:43) API: this week I updated 
(15:55:55) API: the three a11y related gnome-shell patches
(15:56:10) API: hmm, although I have still pending update my hacky orca patch
(15:56:14) API: and create a bug
(15:56:23) API: bug related to the cally script
(15:56:35) API: in order to be more flexible announcing selection changes
(15:56:37) joanie: since we have NO hacks in Orca, I'm not sure if that will be acceptable :-P :-P :-P
(15:56:38) API: anyway
(15:56:45) API: what I tried to say
(15:56:54) joanie: you get us a patch that gets things working API and we'll not delay including it
(15:57:02) API: is that I thing that this work wouldn't affect too much to the gnome-shell work
(15:57:09) aleiva: no workarounds allowed :-)
(15:57:10) aleiva: :-D
(15:57:20) API: well, I think that im done
(15:57:25) joanie: you review my patch yet aleiva? :-P
(15:57:34) API: and that I mostly consumed miscellaneous time
(15:57:35) aleiva: API: how is the integration of glib into compiz?
(15:57:40) joanie: Thanks API. On the one hand, what happens downstream is not our (official) problem. But on the other hand, we've got a TON of ubuntu users. So, I for one am really glad y'all are doing this work.
(15:57:53) aleiva: joanie: workarounds are not allowed
(15:57:55) API: aha, well, yes, but I think that it is worth to comment
(15:58:02) API: as a lateral thing
(15:58:41) API: after all we mention that here
(15:58:43) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#Other_.28non-GNOME_3.0.29_Issues
(15:59:03) API: btw it is still required to create that page "parallel things but not gnome 3.0 real things"
(15:59:07) API: to include that
(15:59:10) ***joanie nods
(15:59:16) API: aleiva, about the integration of glib into compiz
(15:59:18) joanie: I can do that if you'd like API
(15:59:24) API: unity also requires it
(15:59:35) API: and Im using a branch that supports that
(15:59:47) API: and AFAIK natty compiz packages have it
(16:00:10) joanie: It would be nice to see it upstream
(16:00:13) API: don't know if this is also true on the upstream compiz reposiroty
(16:00:17) API: repository
(16:00:34) joanie: Kristian (eZoom and Compiz guy) is supposed to find out
(16:00:39) aleiva: yup
(16:00:51) joanie: although having said that, Compiz and gnome-shell are mutually exclusive
(16:00:52) aleiva: we're waiting for that happens
(16:01:15) joanie: so it might make sense for eZoom a11y work to begin using Natty since API has already been using it successfully
(16:01:36) joanie: anyhoo, noting the just-past-the-hour time....
(16:01:44) joanie: anything else official to include?
(16:01:58) aleiva: API: so can I use AT-SPI in unity to query widgets/elements and receive and ATK representation?
(16:02:05) aleiva: joanie: not from my side
(16:02:19) ***joanie raises the gavel
(16:02:22) aleiva: API: so can I use AT-SPI in unity to query widgets/elements and receive an ATK representation?
(16:02:42) ***joanie bangs the gavel
(16:02:49) joanie: meeting adjourned. Thanks for coming!