1 Conversation with #a11y-meeting
   2 
   3 (15:05:44) API: lets start with point 1
   4 (15:05:46) API: 1 .State of Documentation (Up-to-datedness? Mallard?) 
   5 (15:05:49) API: joanie, ?
   6 (15:06:02) joanie: well, I was hoping there'd be other module maintainers here
   7 (15:06:17) joanie: So I'm guessing we need to email the list and/or ping individuals
   8 (15:06:34) joanie: Orca's docs are in Mallard and up-to-date :-)
   9 (15:06:40) joanie: dunno about anyone elses
  10 (15:06:48) fer: dots docs too
  11 (15:06:53) joanie: doh!
  12 (15:06:56) joanie: my bad fer
  13 (15:07:05) joanie: I think of you as Mozilla now ;-)
  14 (15:07:15) fer: haha
  15 (15:07:21) fer: everything but gnome-mag!
  16 (15:07:23) joanie: jrocha is working on his I know
  17 (15:07:28) joanie: for ocrfeeder
  18 (15:07:47) joanie: dunno about accerciser or gnome-shell mag
  19 (15:08:32) joanie: so.... How about I ping Brian Nitz and Joseph?
  20 (15:08:34) API: and this leads to the "ping individuals"...
  21 (15:08:37) joanie: ;-)
  22 (15:08:48) joanie: And also Shaun re the dev docs
  23 (15:08:50) fer: has accerciser any kind of docs?
  24 (15:09:17) API: if not, It should
  25 (15:09:17) joanie: at the Sevilla hackfest Brian and I brainstormed and worked with Shaun some on Accerciser docs
  26 (15:09:20) API: IMHO
  27 (15:09:29) joanie: whether or not Brian has done anything since then I am unsure
  28 (15:09:35) ***joanie agrees with API
  29 (15:10:38) joanie: I just jotted down that I will do the aforementioned pinging
  30 (15:11:31) joanie: fer your docs are in Mallard, right?
  31 (15:11:37) fer: yeah
  32 (15:11:44) joanie: cool thanks
  33 (15:12:30) ***joanie wonders if API is snoozing
  34 (15:13:13) ***API I don't maintain any module with documentation, not too much to say ;)
  35 (15:13:26) joanie: I mean I think this topic is done
  36 (15:13:26) API: anyway, something else to add here?
  37 (15:13:32) API: so actions:
  38 (15:13:40) joanie: * Joanie will ping Brian Nitz and Joseph re their docs
  39 (15:13:40) joanie: * Joanie will ping Shaun about plans for developer docs
  40 (15:13:42) API: ping Brian and Joseph, and ask about that
  41 (15:13:50) API: ok
  42 (15:13:52) joanie: :-)
  43 (15:13:54) fer: good sync!
  44 (15:14:01) API: 2. AT-SPI/Atk API changes proposed 
  45 (15:14:02) ***joanie is trying to take notes as she goes for minutes
  46 (15:14:12) API: mgorse, one question
  47 (15:14:23) API: some months ago you talked about
  48 (15:14:27) API: gnome bugzilla
  49 (15:14:36) API: and if it worth to create a at-spi2 component
  50 (15:14:41) API: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/describecomponents.cgi
  51 (15:14:51) API: I still think that it is worth
  52 (15:15:01) API: most of gnome people would go there
  53 (15:15:10) API: and as Bastien did
  54 (15:15:23) API: they would use at-spi component to report bugs for at-spi
  55 (15:15:26) API: sorry
  56 (15:15:35) API: they would use at-spi component to report bugs for at-spi2
  57 (15:16:26) API: I think that it would worth to contact bugzilla maintainers
  58 (15:16:34) API: and ask for a new component
  59 (15:16:37) mgorse: API: I'll work on that in the next week. Need to find out who to talk to about it.
  60 (15:16:38) ***joanie agrees
  61 (15:16:48) API: mgorse, ok
  62 (15:17:01) API: and now, about the real purpose of this point
  63 (15:17:06) fer: so I need to open those bugs for ATK/at-spi
  64 (15:17:11) fer: I'll do it today
  65 (15:17:24) fer: but, I don't know about the update signal/event, if it is worth
  66 (15:17:25) API: fer, about the new signals or do you have other ones?
  67 (15:17:43) fer: no other than those in the mail thread
  68 (15:17:56) API: aha
  69 (15:18:02) fer: and I am still not sure about update vs. "deleted + inserted"
  70 (15:18:10) API: well, it is about add new methods
  71 (15:18:14) fer: joanie: would that make things easier/faster for AT apps?
  72 (15:18:21) API: and set as deprectated the current ones
  73 (15:18:35) API: but maintaining the compatibility
  74 (15:18:42) joanie: fer the more details we get without having to hunt them down and maintain state the better
  75 (15:19:14) joanie: and in one case, wasn't the event.any_data just flat out wrong?
  76 (15:19:20) API: about if it is worth, at least it would be good to start to report improvements towards this "new ATK" thing
  77 (15:19:22) joanie: due to the ordering of events?
  78 (15:19:27) API: in fact it would be good to create a metabug
  79 (15:19:38) API: to track all the improvements we want
  80 (15:19:50) API: so this hypothetical ATK hackfest could be something like
  81 (15:19:53) fer: joanie: yeah, any_data was wrong and with that API there was no way to get it right
  82 (15:19:54) API: in a summary
  83 (15:20:01) API: fix metabug XXX
  84 (15:20:07) joanie: :-)
  85 (15:20:22) andre [~andre@g1.blanicka25.net] entered the room.
  86 (15:20:46) joanie: fer: so I think you just answered your question about is it worth it ;-)
  87 (15:20:54) fer: yeah :) thanks
  88 (15:21:02) API: ie, I think that it could be more or less easy to report fer bug
  89 (15:21:03) API: and also
  90 (15:21:06) API: convert this list
  91 (15:21:08) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Roadmap#Augmented_and_Consistently-Implemented_Atk
  92 (15:21:11) API: on bugs
  93 (15:21:15) API: under the same umbrella
  94 (15:21:31) ***API umbrella == "towards ATK 2.0" metabug
  95 (15:21:49) API: opinions? (as we already concluded that fer bug worths)
  96 (15:21:56) danigm [~danigm@ks24874.kimsufi.com] entered the room.
  97 (15:22:10) fer: I'm ok :)
  98 (15:22:18) joanie: is someone going to volunteer to convert the roadmap items to bugs?
  99 (15:22:24) joanie: and create a metabug?
 100 (15:22:37) fer: it should be the "architect"
 101 (15:22:46) API: fer, arquitect?
 102 (15:22:49) joanie: which architect?
 103 (15:23:17) fer: yeah, API related stuff
 104 (15:23:35) fer: API as Application Programming Interface 
 105 (15:23:39) API: fer, well it would not be just API related stuff
 106 (15:23:45) API: it would be also improvements
 107 (15:23:59) fer: and achitectural changes?
 108 (15:23:59) API: if the conclusion is "this is also worths for atk1.0"
 109 (15:24:00) API: good
 110 (15:24:15) API: but yes, a lot of important things would be about drastic changes
 111 (15:24:25) API: as far as I suppose
 112 (15:24:36) API: what we have on that list means API additions and API changes
 113 (15:24:39) API: except some exceptions
 114 (15:24:50) API: and convert that on bugs would be straightforward
 115 (15:25:10) API: then anyone could start to report more bugs if required
 116 (15:25:19) joanie: makes sense to me
 117 (15:25:27) API: I volunteer to create the metabug and the individual bugs based on that list
 118 (15:25:33) joanie: yay!
 119 (15:25:36) joanie: so noted
 120 (15:25:37) API: although probably it would be not ready tomorrow ;)
 121 (15:25:45) joanie: no worries
 122 (15:26:04) API: "towards ATK 2.0" seems a good title for the metabug 
 123 (15:27:13) API: something else in this point?
 124 (15:27:15) API: mgorse, fer joanie ?
 125 (15:27:22) joanie: not from me
 126 (15:27:22) ***API and the rest of course
 127 (15:27:26) fer: not from me
 128 (15:27:34) mgorse: not from me
 129 (15:28:32) API: fine
 130 (15:28:36) API: point 3
 131 (15:28:45) API: 3. Upcoming events 
 132 (15:28:48) API: 3.1 CSUN
 133 (15:29:02) joanie: No Eitan
 134 (15:29:17) fer: I may go to CSUN, but I don't know yet
 135 (15:29:39) slee: SAdly I'm very unlikely to go
 136 (15:29:48) joanie: If I go, I'll fly out, do the panel I'm on, and fly back
 137 (15:30:25) API: also really unlikely from my part
 138 (15:30:37) fer: so no hacking at CSUN I guess
 139 (15:30:46) joanie: That's what Spain is for :-)
 140 (15:30:51) fer: just "meet the community" :)
 141 (15:30:54) ***fer nods
 142 (15:32:07) API: well, not too much about CSUN
 143 (15:32:12) API: so lets go to...
 144 (15:32:17) API: 3.2 ATK hackfest
 145 (15:32:26) API: not too much interaction on the "internal mailing list"
 146 (15:32:33) joanie: nope
 147 (15:32:34) API: just peter, me and li yuan
 148 (15:32:38) API: BTW
 149 (15:32:48) API: I don't remember Peter schedule preferences
 150 (15:32:53) joanie: lol
 151 (15:32:55) API: but last days I realized
 152 (15:32:58) API: that in my case 
 153 (15:33:00) fer: well, I'll go, and probably Alex Surkov from mozilla a11y could join us
 154 (15:33:03) API: 11 April is too early
 155 (15:33:09) joanie: is it?
 156 (15:33:23) joanie: following week I think has Spanish holidays
 157 (15:33:31) API: yes, that week, in theory I have the last week for a project
 158 (15:33:42) joanie: gotcha
 159 (15:33:47) API: being on a hackfest on the last week of a project is not a good idea
 160 (15:33:52) joanie: agreed
 161 (15:33:59) ***API checking peter preferences
 162 (15:34:11) ***joanie doesn't think it should be based on peter preferences
 163 (15:34:14) joanie: ;-)
 164 (15:34:37) ***API no but it is good to have people on your side if required
 165 (15:34:53) fer: yeah, I also have some Operas during April :)
 166 (15:35:17) API: fer, so any April (May?) week preference?
 167 (15:35:18) API: mgorse, ?
 168 (15:35:44) mgorse: API: As of now I don't think I have a preference
 169 (15:36:10) fer: API: 10-16 or 17-23 I wont miss any opera performance, but it is not a strong preference at all
 170 (15:36:20) fer: so I'm 100% flexible regarding this
 171 (15:36:36) joanie: I want either the previous week or the next week to work with Ale
 172 (15:38:33) ***joanie is still looking at the calendar
 173 (15:38:36) API: ok, anyway
 174 (15:38:39) joanie: but we should probably move on
 175 (15:38:46) API: I suppose that the lack of answer is related with christmas
 176 (15:38:49) API: so after that
 177 (15:38:55) API: it would be good to send a ping mail
 178 (15:39:00) API: in order to confirm people
 179 (15:39:03) joanie: and a new date
 180 (15:39:08) API: and a good question would be
 181 (15:39:23) ***joanie shudders at the thought of tossing out open dates for all
 182 (15:39:24) API: what it is the minimum people to conclude that the hackfest should go on?
 183 (15:39:38) joanie: ah different question. never mind
 184 (15:39:41) API: ie: it is clear that a 2 people hackfest is worthless
 185 (15:39:50) API: 5 people is enough?
 186 (15:39:54) joanie: it's also not a number thing
 187 (15:39:54) API: etc
 188 (15:40:05) API: yeah I now that it is not a exact science
 189 (15:40:08) joanie: Like if everyone is there but Mike, I see that as a no-go
 190 (15:40:17) joanie: Mike is a must must have
 191 (15:40:26) API: agree
 192 (15:40:38) joanie: sorry should have said mgorse
 193 (15:40:55) joanie: so here's what I think we should do, for your consideration
 194 (15:41:00) joanie: let's pick a new week
 195 (15:41:07) joanie: and send a ping with the new date
 196 (15:41:24) joanie: and if a bunch of people cannot go, then we can consider the quorum issue
 197 (15:41:48) joanie: (and I don't mean pick a new week *now*)
 198 (15:41:55) joanie: (just before we send the email ;-) )
 199 (15:42:56) API: makes sense
 200 (15:43:15) joanie: so shall you and I look at the calendar and see what is likely to work?
 201 (15:44:21) API: ok
 202 (15:44:33) API: I think that
 203 (15:44:37) API: we can see two weeks
 204 (15:44:47) API: and then ask the people about preferences
 205 (15:44:55) joanie: sounds like a plan
 206 (15:45:04) API: although as I already say, probably it would be good to wait 
 207 (15:45:11) API: for christmas and holidays end
 208 (15:45:20) ***joanie nods
 209 (15:45:32) API: ok, anything else in this point?
 210 (15:45:39) joanie: not from me
 211 (15:45:44) fer: the place is gonna be Coruña?
 212 (15:45:56) API: fer, for the moment yes
 213 (15:45:59) fer: nice!
 214 (15:46:03) API: I already asked here
 215 (15:46:09) API: and they see that as a good idea
 216 (15:46:18) API: I just need to choose a good week
 217 (15:46:19) API: ie
 218 (15:46:28) API: was a error organize the webkit gtk hackfest 
 219 (15:46:36) API: during that week
 220 (15:46:47) API: as 6 and 8 of December was bank holidays ;)
 221 (15:46:48) API: btw
 222 (15:46:49) API: fer, 
 223 (15:46:52) API: hmm
 224 (15:46:59) API: it is called "holy week"?
 225 (15:47:02) API: anyway
 226 (15:47:07) fer: eastern
 227 (15:47:09) API: you know when spring holidays
 228 (15:47:12) fer: or something like that
 229 (15:47:13) API: ah yes
 230 (15:47:24) API: you know when eastern holidays are scheduled this year?
 231 (15:47:32) joanie: it's the week of the 18th I thought
 232 (15:47:42) API: joanie, really=
 233 (15:47:43) API: ?
 234 (15:47:47) API: well, anyway
 235 (15:47:57) API: lets see that 
 236 (15:48:00) API: off the meeting
 237 (15:48:02) joanie: There were some spanish holidays that were eastery that week
 238 (15:48:03) API: lets move
 239 (15:48:07) joanie: :-)
 240 (15:48:13) API: lets skip unity one
 241 (15:48:23) API: 5. GNOME 3.0 
 242 (15:48:37) API: no answer from li related to the gtktreeview refactoring thing
 243 (15:48:41) API: so please
 244 (15:48:51) API: if anyone can test if gailtreeview works fine
 245 (15:49:04) API: the world would be prettier
 246 (15:49:06) joanie: I have a silly question
 247 (15:49:19) API: you probably will get a silly answer
 248 (15:49:20) API: but shoot
 249 (15:49:21) ***mgorse might test it if he ever manages to get a GNOME 3 environment set up
 250 (15:49:25) joanie: what are the odds that this has been incorporated in Natty?
 251 (15:49:37) joanie: because trees have gone all to hell in natty
 252 (15:49:38) API: don't know
 253 (15:49:48) API: gtktreeview refactoring is already on master
 254 (15:49:52) mgorse: This is only for gtk 3, right, not 2.24?
 255 (15:49:53) joanie: and I have not yet done anything custom or GNOME 3.0 ish
 256 (15:49:59) API: but don't know if natty includeds that
 257 (15:50:05) joanie: I was being lazy
 258 (15:50:05) API: mgorse, yes gtk 3
 259 (15:50:08) joanie: I'll look into it
 260 (15:50:18) API: mgorse, but natty includes gtk3
 261 (15:50:25) API: so answer: don't know, but really likely
 262 (15:50:33) fer: but maybe natty has a gnome build still on top of gtk2
 263 (15:50:35) API: they are updating their packages constanttly
 264 (15:50:43) joanie: who knows fer
 265 (15:50:49) API: remember that as with gtk and gtk2
 266 (15:50:56) API: gtk3 can be installed along gtk2
 267 (15:51:00) joanie: all I know is that I press ctrl+o and can fetch coffee whilst I wait
 268 (15:51:01) API: I have natty
 269 (15:51:12) API: and I have gtk, gtk2 and gtk3 installed
 270 (15:51:41) joanie: see what happens if you get into the open dialog from, say, gedit where the default folder has like 30 files
 271 (15:52:06) joanie: I also have AT support enabled for my session
 272 (15:53:03) API: well, focusing again on the point ;)
 273 (15:53:15) API: if anyone can book sometime
 274 (15:53:21) API: please test the new refactored gtktreeview
 275 (15:53:23) API: nex point
 276 (15:53:31) API: Status of the migration to PyGObject: GNOME Goal, 626218
 277 (15:53:47) API: joanie, something about this?
 278 (15:54:12) ***API don't see any other python related module maintainer on the meeting
 279 (15:54:12) fer: dots :=
 280 (15:54:13) joanie: it's on our list
 281 (15:54:33) fer: should this be a low priority thing?
 282 (15:55:07) fer: I mean... of course it would be nice to have all GNOME 3 using pygi... but ... if we don't manage to port all the modules, they are still going to work, right?
 283 (15:55:41) joanie: orca will be ported. Soon I hope
 284 (15:55:58) API: fer, this is one of our recurrent questions
 285 (15:56:04) fer: hehe
 286 (15:56:13) API: but the fact is that
 287 (15:56:16) fer: I also have a recurrent point regarding GNOME 3 :)
 288 (15:56:21) API: when pygi becames really really stable
 289 (15:56:29) API: pygtk will be set as deprecated
 290 (15:56:30) API: hmm
 291 (15:56:39) API: although probably pygtk is already deprecated
 292 (15:56:57) API: ok, as we have this
 293 (15:56:59) API: 3.3 Other updates 
 294 (15:57:02) mgorse: pygi will only be usable with GTK 3, so I guess you'd keep using pygtk for gtk 2
 295 (15:57:08) API: fer, what it is the other recurrent question?
 296 (15:57:21) fer: yeah: Now it looks that some of us are trying to work/develop with a whole GNOME 3 stack (that is, gtk3, at-spi2, etc...), and we are finding some issues. I think that is the way to go, and we should keep opening bugs and helping mgorse with at-spi2 issues we find
 297 (15:57:25) API: mgorse, ah, I didn't knew that, thanks for the clarification
 298 (15:57:49) API: fer, aha, so the question is ...?
 299 (15:58:02) fer: not a question :)
 300 (15:58:14) API: well, this was the advice for months ;)
 301 (15:58:16) fer: just try to focus on that task that you, tbsaunde and me are doing informally :=
 302 (15:58:19) slee: I have to skip - just wanted to say SS12 events are here http://ss12.info and finals at CSUN. Bryen is joiing Project:Possibility board on 07/01 to discuss
 303 (15:58:19) API: ie I always used at-spi2
 304 (15:58:27) API: and mario sanches is using at-spi2 for webkit gtk
 305 (15:58:31) slee: Please add ideas to http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GetInvolved/SmallTasks
 306 (15:58:36) API: and webkit gtk is also migrating to gtk3
 307 (15:58:57) API: slee, well I was allocating last minutes of the meeting for you
 308 (15:58:58) API: ;)
 309 (15:59:13) slee: api tah - I have one :-)
 310 (15:59:32) API: could you elaborate that Project:Possibility board thing?
 311 (15:59:46) ***API slee we can extend the meeting a little ;)
 312 (15:59:47) slee: Sure
 313 (15:59:59) slee: Ok I can stay 5 more
 314 (16:00:40) slee: SO project:possibility organise the SS12 competitions ot get students working on open source accessibility over a weekend
 315 (16:00:53) slee: last year we had 2 teams on Caribou
 316 (16:01:02) slee: want to try again 
 317 (16:01:35) slee: so have asked Bryen to join one of our regular board meetings to see if we can come up with ideas
 318 (16:01:49) slee: especially as GNOME are at CSUN and the finals are there. Plus CSUN have a team this year
 319 (16:02:04) API: finals are on CSUn so march
 320 (16:02:12) slee: I just wanted to let y'all know about this and ask for any ideas you might have
 321 (16:02:13) API: and the 
 322 (16:02:14) API: hmm
 323 (16:02:18) API: "semifinals"
 324 (16:02:22) API: would be on 07/01?
 325 (16:02:28) slee: It's a chance to get some student energy on a project
 326 (16:02:46) slee: but needs suiaabale task for competition
 327 (16:03:07) heidi [~chatzilla@adsl-76-192-1-210.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] entered the room.
 328 (16:03:17) slee: API: no, the events are in Feb / March
 329 (16:03:27) API: slee, ah ok
 330 (16:03:37) slee: see http://ss12.info/ for dates
 331 (16:03:46) API: after a quick look to
 332 (16:03:48) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GetInvolved/SmallTasks
 333 (16:03:51) API: some are outdated
 334 (16:03:51) API: ie
 335 (16:03:56) API: "Add a scanning mode to Caribou."
 336 (16:04:02) slee: yes - needs reviewing 
 337 (16:04:06) API: AFAIK, eeejay already commited something related to that
 338 (16:04:08) slee: that one is great news !
 339 (16:04:24) slee: but perhasp 'enhance scanning' with super douper feature?
 340 (16:04:33) API: slee, AFAIK == I think so, but not sure
 341 (16:04:43) API: slee, yes, probably
 342 (16:04:57) API: eeejay said that was a initial commit,but further work was required
 343 (16:04:58) API: and about 
 344 (16:05:01) API: Work on accerciser bugs or add new interesting plugins
 345 (16:05:08) API: right now accerciser doesn't work ;)
 346 (16:05:19) slee: So my ask was whether maintainers and others could review it and update 
 347 (16:05:26) API: so probably a good task would be "try to get accerciser working"
 348 (16:05:33) API: slee, yes, sorry for the random rant
 349 (16:05:40) API: so the conclusion of this point
 350 (16:05:41) API: action:
 351 (16:05:46) API: review http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GetInvolved/SmallTasks
 352 (16:05:52) slee: bugs might not be so good in competition - but we proved it is basically worked.
 353 (16:06:06) slee: plugins could be great, especially if we have some ideasw
 354 (16:06:15) API: slee, ok, makes sense
 355 (16:06:21) API: as we are out of time
 356 (16:06:26) API: slee, anything else ?
 357 (16:06:31) slee: API - np it is good to say and correct
 358 (16:06:42) slee: yes action = review. 
 359 (16:06:45) slee: ideally for 07/01
 360 (16:06:55) slee: nope
 361 (16:06:59) slee: thanks for time
 362 (16:07:06) API: slee, I think that it is worth to send a reminder to the list
 363 (16:07:13) API: not all the people involved are here
 364 (16:07:17) slee: ok, will do
 365 (16:07:21) API: slee, ok thanks
 366 (16:07:27) API: well, although we are out of time
 367 (16:07:31) API: lets do our classic last item
 368 (16:07:36) API: miscellaneous time
 369 (16:07:46) API: someone have anything else to say
 370 (16:07:50) API: (and short)
 371 (16:07:51) API: ?
 372 (16:10:02) fer: happy new year?
 373 (16:10:12) API: awesome!
 374 (16:10:14) API: ok
 375 (16:10:16) API: meeting over
 376 (16:10:25) API: thanks all to be present here