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   1 (07:01:20) API [~API@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] entered the room.
   2 (07:03:14) API: is there someone here?
   3 (07:03:29) joanie: just us chickens
   4 (07:04:58) API: btw, joanie the other day we were talking about made a c&p
   5 (07:05:12) API: of the idea
   6 (07:05:15) API: of clutter people
   7 (07:05:23) API: something like a a11y-meeting
   8 (07:05:32) ***joanie nods
   9 (07:05:44) API: we conclude that it was a good idea
  10 (07:05:55) joanie: I think so
  11 (07:05:58) API: but we didn't do anything :P
  12 (07:06:02) joanie: we suck
  13 (07:06:35) joanie: we can start doing that effective next week
  14 (07:06:36) API: lets propose that for the next meeting
  15 (07:06:39) joanie: I just noted it down
  16 (07:06:42) ***joanie nods
  17 (07:07:07) ***joanie wonders if given the hour AND the holiday if she and API are the only ones here
  18 (07:07:41) danigm_out is now known as danigm
  19 (07:07:45) API: lets start to gossip and make bad jokes of the people
  20 (07:08:00) joanie: heh
  21 (07:08:29) joanie: aleiva said he'd be in later. Possibly at half past the hour if he's lucky (commute)
  22 (07:08:44) PovAddict: I'm here, sort of
  23 (07:08:53) joanie: hey PovAddict
  24 (07:08:56) joanie: (who are you?)
  25 (07:09:04) PovAddict: but I shouldn't be
  26 (07:09:24) joanie: you might get a bad rep hangin' out with us
  27 (07:09:25) PovAddict: it's 4am, I keep failing my plans to fix my sleep schedule
  28 (07:09:26) joanie: ;-)
  29 (07:10:11) joanie: Sooooo.... API meet anyway or....
  30 (07:10:27) PovAddict: meh, been in worse places :)
  31 (07:12:13) API left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
  32 (07:12:28) joanie: and he's gone
  33 (07:12:28) API [~API@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] entered the room.
  34 (07:12:32) joanie: and he's back
  35 (07:13:01) API: yep, weird logout
  36 (07:13:07) API: automatic logout
  37 (07:13:10) API: the new feature!
  38 (07:13:13) API: at a random
  39 (07:13:15) joanie: what distro?
  40 (07:13:23) ***PovAddict already feels like he's in enemy territory anyway
  41 (07:13:32) joanie: PovAddict: Why?
  42 (07:13:39) joanie: and, again, who are you? :-)
  43 (07:13:47) PovAddict: I'm a KDE guy :)
  44 (07:13:48) joanie: we're glad you're here
  45 (07:13:49) joanie: ah
  46 (07:13:51) API: PovAddict, could you introduce yourself ;) ?
  47 (07:13:51) joanie: gotcha
  48 (07:13:59) API: ah ok
  49 (07:14:11) joanie: no you're welcome here PovAddict
  50 (07:14:13) API: well, as you can see, although we have weekly meetings
  51 (07:14:29) mgorse: Okay. I'm here now. Sorry for being late.
  52 (07:14:31) API: this is our not popular time
  53 (07:14:32) joanie: Which are normally well attended even at this hour
  54 (07:14:35) joanie: mike!
  55 (07:14:39) joanie: yay!
  56 (07:15:04) PovAddict: joanie: men are welcome in #debian-women too, still feels like enemy territory ;)
  57 (07:15:27) joanie: heh I don't even hang out in the "women" channels
  58 (07:15:32) joanie: that's always struck me as weird
  59 (07:15:47) joanie: I mean, there's no #debian-men I assume
  60 (07:15:48) joanie: ;-)
  61 (07:16:23) joanie: anyhoo PovAddict on behalf of 1/2 of the Orca maintainership, we're very glad to see interest in a11y from the KDE camp
  62 (07:16:43) joanie: we're hoping Orca will be able to provide access to KDE apps before too terribly long
  63 (07:17:17) joanie: anyhoo API, since mgorse is here, does 3 make a quorum?
  64 (07:17:33) API: yep, taking into account
  65 (07:17:43) API: that we already waited for 15 minutes
  66 (07:17:48) API: lets start the meeting ...
  67 (07:18:00) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
  68 (07:18:03) API: 1. Documentation
  69 (07:18:07) PovAddict: I got interested for not-really-a11y reasons: a11y interfaces are usually useful for UI automation too
  70 (07:18:11) API: joanie please
  71 (07:18:37) joanie: Well, last update was that Shaunm was going to send a list of questions to the list
  72 (07:18:41) PovAddict: and python-dogtail looked quite promising, to control another app's UI via at-spi
  73 (07:18:55) joanie: I don't recall seeing that, but it's 02:18 here and I'm still waking up
  74 (07:19:00) API: dogtail is mostly dead
  75 (07:19:07) PovAddict: turns out it's all a lot more broken and incomplete than I expected :P
  76 (07:19:11) joanie: The Orca docs have been converted to Mallard
  77 (07:19:27) joanie: and put in our module
  78 (07:19:37) joanie: so I guess what I'd like to know from the rest of the team, is:
  79 (07:19:47) API: joanie, this was based on previous documentation or it was started from scratch?
  80 (07:19:54) joanie: combination
  81 (07:20:17) ***PovAddict was typing without reading, didn't notice official meeting start; shuts up now
  82 (07:20:21) joanie: But what I'd like to know from the team is are their docs mallardized? do they expect help from the Doc Team, and if so, what help
  83 (07:20:36) joanie: and no one is here to answer that ;-)
  84 (07:20:44) joanie: but we can add it to the minutes/agenda
  85 (07:20:51) joanie: We need better docs all around
  86 (07:21:16) API: aha
  87 (07:21:18) API: you mean
  88 (07:21:21) API: start to dig people
  89 (07:21:28) API: and asking if they 
  90 (07:21:37) API: will move the documentation to mallard
  91 (07:21:41) API: caribou
  92 (07:21:46) ***joanie nods
  93 (07:21:51) API: and at-spi2?
  94 (07:21:55) joanie: and also: Are their docs up-to-date regardless?
  95 (07:21:58) API: after all, mike is here ;)
  96 (07:22:01) joanie: Orca's were not
  97 (07:22:53) mgorse: Oh; does Mallard get used for reference docs, too?
  98 (07:23:10) API: no afaik
  99 (07:23:24) joanie: no?
 100 (07:23:40) joanie: I thought we were going to be all-mallard all the time
 101 (07:23:41) API: hmm
 102 (07:23:50) API: I thought that mallard was more oriented to user documentation
 103 (07:23:56) joanie: but desktop help is the starting point
 104 (07:24:02) joanie: we should ask shaunm for clarification
 105 (07:24:12) API: for example, this kind of documentation;:
 106 (07:24:15) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/atk/stable/AtkObject.html
 107 (07:24:16) joanie: but I think that developer docs need to be in mallard (or will be in mallard)
 108 (07:24:22) ***joanie nods
 109 (07:24:29) API: it is supposed to be migrated to mallard?
 110 (07:24:37) joanie: hmmmm. that's autogenerated?
 111 (07:24:45) API: yes
 112 (07:24:53) joanie: so I guess that's a shaunm question
 113 (07:25:01) joanie: surely we aren't going to stop autogenerating it
 114 (07:25:06) API: or when you talk about mallard developer documentation you are talking about tutorials and so on?
 115 (07:25:17) joanie: tutorials, accerciser docs, etc.
 116 (07:25:30) joanie: Orca architecture and scripting stuff, bla bla bla
 117 (07:26:34) PovAddict: the little docs I looked at seemed to be pretty good
 118 (07:26:44) joanie: which ones PovAddict?
 119 (07:26:47) API: aha, so the non-mallard developer documentation would be just the api reference
 120 (07:26:50) API: right?
 121 (07:27:03) joanie: It's a guess API, but probably
 122 (07:27:22) joanie: or alternatively, mallard autogenerated
 123 (07:27:31) mgorse: But, yeah, maybe we need an AT-side tutorial for AT-SPI as well
 124 (07:27:46) joanie: mgorse: I think that would be cool
 125 (07:27:54) joanie: especially for people wanting to triage bugs
 126 (07:28:00) API: ok, so lets note down: ask shaun to clarify it
 127 (07:28:04) joanie: yup
 128 (07:28:19) API: shaunm I mean
 129 (07:28:44) PovAddict: well, live.g.o/Accessibility/Mechanics explains how the entire thing works, which helped me get AT-SPI working with GTK apps under a KDE desktop (setting GTK_MODULES), and was quite educational in the gnome a11y startup process
 130 (07:28:49) joanie: so conclusions are.... 1. Poke module maintainers to figure out where they are w.r.t. their docs. 2. Poke shaunm to find out what all is being migrated to mallard. Yes?
 131 (07:30:14) joanie: PovAddict: Cool. 
 132 (07:30:19) API: that comment from PovAddict remind me 
 133 (07:30:23) PovAddict: draw a line on what migrates and what doesn't?
 134 (07:30:28) API: our "we have our doc distributed" thing
 135 (07:30:31) API: as 
 136 (07:30:37) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Mechanics
 137 (07:30:40) API: is similar to
 138 (07:30:48) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/
 139 (07:30:52) API: or more specifically to
 140 (07:30:58) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/gad-how-it-works.html.en
 141 (07:31:06) API: other thing that we need to check (again)
 142 (07:31:16) API: is been sure that all our documentation is homogeneous
 143 (07:31:19) API: and updated
 144 (07:31:24) joanie: and in just one place
 145 (07:31:25) joanie: ;-)
 146 (07:31:26) API: and remove pages if other pages
 147 (07:31:31) API: say the same
 148 (07:31:35) API: yes
 149 (07:32:12) PovAddict: or worse, if they are supposed to say the same but don't :)
 150 (07:32:15) joanie: I'm tempted to deprecate all of our docs and start over.
 151 (07:32:21) joanie: PovAddict: We have that issue
 152 (07:32:25) API: PovAddict, see my "homoreneous" thing ;)
 153 (07:32:56) API: joanie, well massive destruction is something that we also need to debate ;)
 154 (07:33:02) PovAddict: joanie: starting over is always tempting, but often a bad idea
 155 (07:33:14) joanie: You bring the gasoline, I'll bring the matches
 156 (07:33:23) joanie: PovAddict: I was half joking
 157 (07:33:54) joanie: but having done a complete redo of the Orca docs, I can honestly say that as painful as it was, it was worth it
 158 (07:34:11) API: well, as we already set the actions, I think that we can move to next point
 159 (07:34:13) joanie: anyhoo, we've deep dove into this topic
 160 (07:34:22) ***joanie mutters something about "great minds"
 161 (07:34:24) PovAddict: "programmers are architects at heart, and as architects, the first thing we want to do is bulldoze the place flat and build something grand"
 162 (07:34:35) API: 2. AT-SPI/Atk API changes proposed 
 163 (07:34:54) API: I also hated the architect analogy :P
 164 (07:35:02) joanie: lol
 165 (07:35:02) API: anyway, about the changes
 166 (07:35:12) mgorse: Well, we do seem to rewrite things a lot :)
 167 (07:35:14) API: fer mail didn't have too much responses
 168 (07:35:27) ***joanie nods
 169 (07:35:31) API: mgorse, you read that mail?
 170 (07:35:38) mgorse: yeah
 171 (07:35:42) joanie: I should reply. Been busy bulldozing
 172 (07:35:55) API: well, I was able to reply
 173 (07:36:07) API: anyway, in the end, it would require a bug on bugzilla
 174 (07:36:07) ***joanie pats API on the back
 175 (07:36:19) ***API checking if bugzilla is up, btw
 176 (07:36:22) joanie: yup
 177 (07:36:44) ***API is alive, alive!!
 178 (07:36:49) mgorse: Yeah; not sure if fer was planning on making a patch or if one of us should
 179 (07:36:57) API: ah
 180 (07:36:59) API: good point
 181 (07:37:06) joanie: Fer can I assume
 182 (07:37:11) joanie: and he's the sort that would
 183 (07:37:14) mgorse: I assume we're okay with the proposal, since no one objected to it
 184 (07:37:16) joanie: I think he's waiting for blessing
 185 (07:37:20) API: anyway, when I answered him
 186 (07:37:24) API: I forgot something
 187 (07:37:30) API: he said that at-spi should be updated
 188 (07:37:43) API: but one thing to take into account
 189 (07:37:53) API: that at that moment that signals can't replace the current ones
 190 (07:38:02) API: I mean that the old ones should still work
 191 (07:38:10) API: so at-spi (or at-spi2)
 192 (07:38:10) joanie: I thought that was always the plan
 193 (07:38:13) API: should manage both
 194 (07:38:23) API: yes, but it is good to ask and confirm ;)
 195 (07:38:28) API: anyway mgorse 
 196 (07:38:30) joanie: gotcha
 197 (07:38:37) API: it would be required to update at-spi?
 198 (07:39:00) API: I mean the pyatspi2 API
 199 (07:39:44) mgorse: Are we proposing adding text-insert//text-removed API into AT-SPI, or would it map them to text-changed events? It isn't clear to me whether we've decided that.
 200 (07:40:38) PovAddict: ok ladies, time to sleep; have fun and I wish you consensus in the rest of the meeting :)
 201 (07:40:49) API: well for the moment fer just proposed new signals for ATK
 202 (07:40:49) mgorse: PovAddict: Night. Thanks for coming
 203 (07:40:51) joanie: bye PovAddict
 204 (07:40:58) API: bye PovAddict 
 205 (07:41:08) joanie: PovAddict: BTW, I'm the only lady
 206 (07:41:11) API: -> probably we should ask him to clarify the at-spi2 part
 207 (07:41:15) joanie: well, stormy, but....
 208 (07:41:25) API: and pendulum
 209 (07:41:26) joanie: of those here and awake
 210 (07:41:56) API: ah yep
 211 (07:42:09) API: anyway, as action in this point
 212 (07:42:11) PovAddict: I've seen 'bye ladies' said in female-less channels ;)
 213 (07:42:21) joanie: heh
 214 (07:42:45) API: try to answer fer mail, and try to clarify this point: at-spi2 relation, bugzilla interaction, and so on
 215 (07:42:49) API: agree?
 216 (07:43:04) joanie: agree
 217 (07:43:28) API: ok, and related with this point
 218 (07:43:33) API: on the last meeting
 219 (07:43:53) API: joanie said that it would be a good idea to try to organize a ATK hackfest
 220 (07:44:51) joanie: you waiting for me to finish that thought?
 221 (07:44:58) API: ah sorry
 222 (07:45:01) API: please go on
 223 (07:45:04) joanie: lol
 224 (07:45:06) joanie: okay
 225 (07:45:15) ***API ups communication breakdown
 226 (07:45:40) joanie: Yeah, so... As API pointed out, we have the Atk revamp slated on our roadmap for April 2011
 227 (07:45:54) joanie: so I'm thinking we should have a hackfest in spring for this
 228 (07:46:07) joanie: I also think that many of the stakeholders are already in Spain
 229 (07:46:19) joanie: mgorse: and I being the exceptions to the rule
 230 (07:46:42) joanie: so mgorse what do you think about a hackfest for Atk revamp in Spring in Northern Spain?
 231 (07:47:23) mgorse: Who do we have there? Is that where API is? I guess we'll need someone there to find a venue for it
 232 (07:47:31) joanie: API 
 233 (07:47:32) API: she said northern because we were talking 
 234 (07:47:32) joanie: Fer
 235 (07:47:35) joanie: msanchez
 236 (07:47:41) joanie: Evince maintainer
 237 (07:47:49) joanie: Carlos
 238 (07:47:50) danigm: I like that idea
 239 (07:47:51) API: and as Igalia office was already used for some gnome hackfests
 240 (07:47:54) danigm: :D
 241 (07:48:03) API: gtk and webkitgtk hackfest
 242 (07:48:03) ***joanie waves to danigm
 243 (07:48:14) danigm: I'll be there
 244 (07:48:15) API: it would be again a good place
 245 (07:48:32) joanie: Also aleiva of course
 246 (07:48:47) API: I asked internally here
 247 (07:49:02) API: and for the moment, there is no problem to organize that on Igalia offices
 248 (07:49:13) API: we just need to decide a date
 249 (07:49:25) API: and then check if the office is free on that moment
 250 (07:49:39) API: of course, if the hackfest is organized
 251 (07:49:48) API: we are still debating that ;)
 252 (07:50:04) API: mgorse, http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/GTK2010
 253 (07:50:04) API: and
 254 (07:50:08) joanie: I for one prefer disorganized ones
 255 (07:50:09) API: http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/WebKitGTK2010
 256 (07:50:16) API: were organized on igalia office
 257 (07:50:55) joanie: So in summary, we have a season picked out, we have a venue that we think should work. mgorse what's your spring schedule look like?
 258 (07:51:22) mgorse: I'm presumably going to CSUN at the end of March; I don't imagine it would matter to me other than that
 259 (07:52:22) joanie: so you can be away for multiple weeks in the spring for work?
 260 (07:52:41) joanie: I cannot so if I go to CSUN (panel seems to be back on), I'll fly out, present, and fly back
 261 (07:53:22) mgorse: I should check to be sure but at this point I don't see one week being worse than another week, anyway
 262 (07:53:40) joanie: cool
 263 (07:54:05) joanie: so API, presumably April
 264 (07:54:13) API: hmm, so you are proposing something like "atk hackfest just after CSUN"
 265 (07:54:17) joanie: should the next step be to check the Igalia calendar?
 266 (07:54:35) API: http://csunconference.org/
 267 (07:54:39) joanie: API I don't think so
 268 (07:54:40) API: it says in the middle of March
 269 (07:54:43) joanie: csun is earlier this year
 270 (07:54:43) API: ah ok
 271 (07:54:44) joanie: yup
 272 (07:54:54) API: I was thinking is something like middle of APril
 273 (07:54:59) API: for the hackfest
 274 (07:55:05) joanie: cool
 275 (07:55:13) ***joanie looks at her calendar
 276 (07:55:17) API: although it would be good to also check the spring holidays
 277 (07:55:42) API: one error of the webkitgtk hackfest was that was organized
 278 (07:55:51) API: a week with two spanish bank days
 279 (07:56:15) joanie: I thought that was intentional
 280 (07:56:20) joanie: so that people wouldn't miss work
 281 (07:56:52) API: eh, no :P
 282 (07:56:54) joanie: heh
 283 (07:57:11) joanie: so API looking at the calendar, 4 April is when 3.0 tarballs are due
 284 (07:57:25) joanie: if any of us are "last-minute" fixing stuff....
 285 (07:57:46) joanie: so, the week of the 11th is good holiday-wize
 286 (07:58:03) joanie: at least no u.s. and no federal spanish holidays
 287 (07:58:09) ***joanie checks regional
 288 (07:59:05) API: ok: so concluding
 289 (07:59:14) API: atk hackfests seems a good idea
 290 (07:59:24) API: action: lets check a date
 291 (07:59:43) joanie: I've finished checking
 292 (07:59:46) API: action: lets try to get in contact with other atk people
 293 (08:00:01) API: hmmm, about that
 294 (08:00:04) joanie: Depending on what Igalia's availability is.... The week of the 11th
 295 (08:00:16) API: you want to organize that just after gnome 3 release?
 296 (08:00:24) API: and anyway, when I said check dates
 297 (08:00:26) joanie: I don't want it before
 298 (08:00:28) joanie: ;-)
 299 (08:00:33) API: it was related with the people
 300 (08:00:39) API: get in contact with the people
 301 (08:00:54) API: and check the best date for the bigger amount of people
 302 (08:01:02) API: any other action?
 303 (08:01:07) joanie: Right, but if we just toss out "when is good for you?" to a bunch of people....
 304 (08:01:19) joanie: I'd rather toss out, "can you do the week of 11 April?"
 305 (08:01:27) joanie: (if Igalia is available for us then)
 306 (08:03:34) API: ah yes, of course starting with a proposed date
 307 (08:04:01) API: but lets continue on the ml or whatever
 308 (08:04:12) API: as we don't have more meeting time ;)
 309 (08:04:20) API: anyway, 
 310 (08:04:24) API: before finish it
 311 (08:04:27) API: miscellaneous time
 312 (08:04:46) API: someone want to ask/say something not included on the meeting?
 313 (08:05:23) mgorse: Does anyone know who works on Open Office / Libre Office a11y? I'll try to find out if not.
 314 (08:05:34) joanie: mgorse: OpenOffice?
 315 (08:05:36) joanie: Malte
 316 (08:05:52) joanie: I don't know what's going on with LibreOffice a11y
 317 (08:05:54) joanie: why?
 318 (08:06:31) mgorse: okay; I guess we want to ask him if he can come to the hackfest
 319 (08:06:38) joanie: mgorse: He's already on the list
 320 (08:06:41) joanie: just like you were
 321 (08:06:44) ***joanie smiles
 322 (08:07:02) joanie: because he's in Germany, Spain is a short enough flight
 323 (08:07:31) joanie: mgorse: but we've not informed Malte of this
 324 (08:07:38) joanie: we need to send an email out
 325 (08:07:59) joanie: we just wanted to find out what your availability is since you need to be there
 326 (08:09:55) joanie: so... meeting adjourned?
 327 (08:10:50) API: yes, I guess so
 328 (08:11:01) API: well, thanks all to assist the meeting
 329 (08:11:06) ***API all=4
 330 (08:11:15) ***API + PovAddict

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