Attachment '20101223_log.txt'
Download 1 (07:01:20) API [~API@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] entered the room.
2 (07:03:14) API: is there someone here?
3 (07:03:29) joanie: just us chickens
4 (07:04:58) API: btw, joanie the other day we were talking about made a c&p
5 (07:05:12) API: of the idea
6 (07:05:15) API: of clutter people
7 (07:05:23) API: something like a a11y-meeting
8 (07:05:32) ***joanie nods
9 (07:05:44) API: we conclude that it was a good idea
10 (07:05:55) joanie: I think so
11 (07:05:58) API: but we didn't do anything :P
12 (07:06:02) joanie: we suck
13 (07:06:35) joanie: we can start doing that effective next week
14 (07:06:36) API: lets propose that for the next meeting
15 (07:06:39) joanie: I just noted it down
16 (07:06:42) ***joanie nods
17 (07:07:07) ***joanie wonders if given the hour AND the holiday if she and API are the only ones here
18 (07:07:41) danigm_out is now known as danigm
19 (07:07:45) API: lets start to gossip and make bad jokes of the people
20 (07:08:00) joanie: heh
21 (07:08:29) joanie: aleiva said he'd be in later. Possibly at half past the hour if he's lucky (commute)
22 (07:08:44) PovAddict: I'm here, sort of
23 (07:08:53) joanie: hey PovAddict
24 (07:08:56) joanie: (who are you?)
25 (07:09:04) PovAddict: but I shouldn't be
26 (07:09:24) joanie: you might get a bad rep hangin' out with us
27 (07:09:25) PovAddict: it's 4am, I keep failing my plans to fix my sleep schedule
28 (07:09:26) joanie: ;-)
29 (07:10:11) joanie: Sooooo.... API meet anyway or....
30 (07:10:27) PovAddict: meh, been in worse places :)
31 (07:12:13) API left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
32 (07:12:28) joanie: and he's gone
33 (07:12:28) API [~API@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] entered the room.
34 (07:12:32) joanie: and he's back
35 (07:13:01) API: yep, weird logout
36 (07:13:07) API: automatic logout
37 (07:13:10) API: the new feature!
38 (07:13:13) API: at a random
39 (07:13:15) joanie: what distro?
40 (07:13:23) ***PovAddict already feels like he's in enemy territory anyway
41 (07:13:32) joanie: PovAddict: Why?
42 (07:13:39) joanie: and, again, who are you? :-)
43 (07:13:47) PovAddict: I'm a KDE guy :)
44 (07:13:48) joanie: we're glad you're here
45 (07:13:49) joanie: ah
46 (07:13:51) API: PovAddict, could you introduce yourself ;) ?
47 (07:13:51) joanie: gotcha
48 (07:13:59) API: ah ok
49 (07:14:11) joanie: no you're welcome here PovAddict
50 (07:14:13) API: well, as you can see, although we have weekly meetings
51 (07:14:29) mgorse: Okay. I'm here now. Sorry for being late.
52 (07:14:31) API: this is our not popular time
53 (07:14:32) joanie: Which are normally well attended even at this hour
54 (07:14:35) joanie: mike!
55 (07:14:39) joanie: yay!
56 (07:15:04) PovAddict: joanie: men are welcome in #debian-women too, still feels like enemy territory ;)
57 (07:15:27) joanie: heh I don't even hang out in the "women" channels
58 (07:15:32) joanie: that's always struck me as weird
59 (07:15:47) joanie: I mean, there's no #debian-men I assume
60 (07:15:48) joanie: ;-)
61 (07:16:23) joanie: anyhoo PovAddict on behalf of 1/2 of the Orca maintainership, we're very glad to see interest in a11y from the KDE camp
62 (07:16:43) joanie: we're hoping Orca will be able to provide access to KDE apps before too terribly long
63 (07:17:17) joanie: anyhoo API, since mgorse is here, does 3 make a quorum?
64 (07:17:33) API: yep, taking into account
65 (07:17:43) API: that we already waited for 15 minutes
66 (07:17:48) API: lets start the meeting ...
67 (07:18:00) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
68 (07:18:03) API: 1. Documentation
69 (07:18:07) PovAddict: I got interested for not-really-a11y reasons: a11y interfaces are usually useful for UI automation too
70 (07:18:11) API: joanie please
71 (07:18:37) joanie: Well, last update was that Shaunm was going to send a list of questions to the list
72 (07:18:41) PovAddict: and python-dogtail looked quite promising, to control another app's UI via at-spi
73 (07:18:55) joanie: I don't recall seeing that, but it's 02:18 here and I'm still waking up
74 (07:19:00) API: dogtail is mostly dead
75 (07:19:07) PovAddict: turns out it's all a lot more broken and incomplete than I expected :P
76 (07:19:11) joanie: The Orca docs have been converted to Mallard
77 (07:19:27) joanie: and put in our module
78 (07:19:37) joanie: so I guess what I'd like to know from the rest of the team, is:
79 (07:19:47) API: joanie, this was based on previous documentation or it was started from scratch?
80 (07:19:54) joanie: combination
81 (07:20:17) ***PovAddict was typing without reading, didn't notice official meeting start; shuts up now
82 (07:20:21) joanie: But what I'd like to know from the team is are their docs mallardized? do they expect help from the Doc Team, and if so, what help
83 (07:20:36) joanie: and no one is here to answer that ;-)
84 (07:20:44) joanie: but we can add it to the minutes/agenda
85 (07:20:51) joanie: We need better docs all around
86 (07:21:16) API: aha
87 (07:21:18) API: you mean
88 (07:21:21) API: start to dig people
89 (07:21:28) API: and asking if they
90 (07:21:37) API: will move the documentation to mallard
91 (07:21:41) API: caribou
92 (07:21:46) ***joanie nods
93 (07:21:51) API: and at-spi2?
94 (07:21:55) joanie: and also: Are their docs up-to-date regardless?
95 (07:21:58) API: after all, mike is here ;)
96 (07:22:01) joanie: Orca's were not
97 (07:22:53) mgorse: Oh; does Mallard get used for reference docs, too?
98 (07:23:10) API: no afaik
99 (07:23:24) joanie: no?
100 (07:23:40) joanie: I thought we were going to be all-mallard all the time
101 (07:23:41) API: hmm
102 (07:23:50) API: I thought that mallard was more oriented to user documentation
103 (07:23:56) joanie: but desktop help is the starting point
104 (07:24:02) joanie: we should ask shaunm for clarification
105 (07:24:12) API: for example, this kind of documentation;:
106 (07:24:15) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/atk/stable/AtkObject.html
107 (07:24:16) joanie: but I think that developer docs need to be in mallard (or will be in mallard)
108 (07:24:22) ***joanie nods
109 (07:24:29) API: it is supposed to be migrated to mallard?
110 (07:24:37) joanie: hmmmm. that's autogenerated?
111 (07:24:45) API: yes
112 (07:24:53) joanie: so I guess that's a shaunm question
113 (07:25:01) joanie: surely we aren't going to stop autogenerating it
114 (07:25:06) API: or when you talk about mallard developer documentation you are talking about tutorials and so on?
115 (07:25:17) joanie: tutorials, accerciser docs, etc.
116 (07:25:30) joanie: Orca architecture and scripting stuff, bla bla bla
117 (07:26:34) PovAddict: the little docs I looked at seemed to be pretty good
118 (07:26:44) joanie: which ones PovAddict?
119 (07:26:47) API: aha, so the non-mallard developer documentation would be just the api reference
120 (07:26:50) API: right?
121 (07:27:03) joanie: It's a guess API, but probably
122 (07:27:22) joanie: or alternatively, mallard autogenerated
123 (07:27:31) mgorse: But, yeah, maybe we need an AT-side tutorial for AT-SPI as well
124 (07:27:46) joanie: mgorse: I think that would be cool
125 (07:27:54) joanie: especially for people wanting to triage bugs
126 (07:28:00) API: ok, so lets note down: ask shaun to clarify it
127 (07:28:04) joanie: yup
128 (07:28:19) API: shaunm I mean
129 (07:28:44) PovAddict: well, live.g.o/Accessibility/Mechanics explains how the entire thing works, which helped me get AT-SPI working with GTK apps under a KDE desktop (setting GTK_MODULES), and was quite educational in the gnome a11y startup process
130 (07:28:49) joanie: so conclusions are.... 1. Poke module maintainers to figure out where they are w.r.t. their docs. 2. Poke shaunm to find out what all is being migrated to mallard. Yes?
131 (07:30:14) joanie: PovAddict: Cool.
132 (07:30:19) API: that comment from PovAddict remind me
133 (07:30:23) PovAddict: draw a line on what migrates and what doesn't?
134 (07:30:28) API: our "we have our doc distributed" thing
135 (07:30:31) API: as
136 (07:30:37) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Mechanics
137 (07:30:40) API: is similar to
138 (07:30:48) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/
139 (07:30:52) API: or more specifically to
140 (07:30:58) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/gad-how-it-works.html.en
141 (07:31:06) API: other thing that we need to check (again)
142 (07:31:16) API: is been sure that all our documentation is homogeneous
143 (07:31:19) API: and updated
144 (07:31:24) joanie: and in just one place
145 (07:31:25) joanie: ;-)
146 (07:31:26) API: and remove pages if other pages
147 (07:31:31) API: say the same
148 (07:31:35) API: yes
149 (07:32:12) PovAddict: or worse, if they are supposed to say the same but don't :)
150 (07:32:15) joanie: I'm tempted to deprecate all of our docs and start over.
151 (07:32:21) joanie: PovAddict: We have that issue
152 (07:32:25) API: PovAddict, see my "homoreneous" thing ;)
153 (07:32:56) API: joanie, well massive destruction is something that we also need to debate ;)
154 (07:33:02) PovAddict: joanie: starting over is always tempting, but often a bad idea
155 (07:33:14) joanie: You bring the gasoline, I'll bring the matches
156 (07:33:23) joanie: PovAddict: I was half joking
157 (07:33:54) joanie: but having done a complete redo of the Orca docs, I can honestly say that as painful as it was, it was worth it
158 (07:34:11) API: well, as we already set the actions, I think that we can move to next point
159 (07:34:13) joanie: anyhoo, we've deep dove into this topic
160 (07:34:22) ***joanie mutters something about "great minds"
161 (07:34:24) PovAddict: "programmers are architects at heart, and as architects, the first thing we want to do is bulldoze the place flat and build something grand"
162 (07:34:35) API: 2. AT-SPI/Atk API changes proposed
163 (07:34:54) API: I also hated the architect analogy :P
164 (07:35:02) joanie: lol
165 (07:35:02) API: anyway, about the changes
166 (07:35:12) mgorse: Well, we do seem to rewrite things a lot :)
167 (07:35:14) API: fer mail didn't have too much responses
168 (07:35:27) ***joanie nods
169 (07:35:31) API: mgorse, you read that mail?
170 (07:35:38) mgorse: yeah
171 (07:35:42) joanie: I should reply. Been busy bulldozing
172 (07:35:55) API: well, I was able to reply
173 (07:36:07) API: anyway, in the end, it would require a bug on bugzilla
174 (07:36:07) ***joanie pats API on the back
175 (07:36:19) ***API checking if bugzilla is up, btw
176 (07:36:22) joanie: yup
177 (07:36:44) ***API is alive, alive!!
178 (07:36:49) mgorse: Yeah; not sure if fer was planning on making a patch or if one of us should
179 (07:36:57) API: ah
180 (07:36:59) API: good point
181 (07:37:06) joanie: Fer can I assume
182 (07:37:11) joanie: and he's the sort that would
183 (07:37:14) mgorse: I assume we're okay with the proposal, since no one objected to it
184 (07:37:16) joanie: I think he's waiting for blessing
185 (07:37:20) API: anyway, when I answered him
186 (07:37:24) API: I forgot something
187 (07:37:30) API: he said that at-spi should be updated
188 (07:37:43) API: but one thing to take into account
189 (07:37:53) API: that at that moment that signals can't replace the current ones
190 (07:38:02) API: I mean that the old ones should still work
191 (07:38:10) API: so at-spi (or at-spi2)
192 (07:38:10) joanie: I thought that was always the plan
193 (07:38:13) API: should manage both
194 (07:38:23) API: yes, but it is good to ask and confirm ;)
195 (07:38:28) API: anyway mgorse
196 (07:38:30) joanie: gotcha
197 (07:38:37) API: it would be required to update at-spi?
198 (07:39:00) API: I mean the pyatspi2 API
199 (07:39:44) mgorse: Are we proposing adding text-insert//text-removed API into AT-SPI, or would it map them to text-changed events? It isn't clear to me whether we've decided that.
200 (07:40:38) PovAddict: ok ladies, time to sleep; have fun and I wish you consensus in the rest of the meeting :)
201 (07:40:49) API: well for the moment fer just proposed new signals for ATK
202 (07:40:49) mgorse: PovAddict: Night. Thanks for coming
203 (07:40:51) joanie: bye PovAddict
204 (07:40:58) API: bye PovAddict
205 (07:41:08) joanie: PovAddict: BTW, I'm the only lady
206 (07:41:11) API: -> probably we should ask him to clarify the at-spi2 part
207 (07:41:15) joanie: well, stormy, but....
208 (07:41:25) API: and pendulum
209 (07:41:26) joanie: of those here and awake
210 (07:41:56) API: ah yep
211 (07:42:09) API: anyway, as action in this point
212 (07:42:11) PovAddict: I've seen 'bye ladies' said in female-less channels ;)
213 (07:42:21) joanie: heh
214 (07:42:45) API: try to answer fer mail, and try to clarify this point: at-spi2 relation, bugzilla interaction, and so on
215 (07:42:49) API: agree?
216 (07:43:04) joanie: agree
217 (07:43:28) API: ok, and related with this point
218 (07:43:33) API: on the last meeting
219 (07:43:53) API: joanie said that it would be a good idea to try to organize a ATK hackfest
220 (07:44:51) joanie: you waiting for me to finish that thought?
221 (07:44:58) API: ah sorry
222 (07:45:01) API: please go on
223 (07:45:04) joanie: lol
224 (07:45:06) joanie: okay
225 (07:45:15) ***API ups communication breakdown
226 (07:45:40) joanie: Yeah, so... As API pointed out, we have the Atk revamp slated on our roadmap for April 2011
227 (07:45:54) joanie: so I'm thinking we should have a hackfest in spring for this
228 (07:46:07) joanie: I also think that many of the stakeholders are already in Spain
229 (07:46:19) joanie: mgorse: and I being the exceptions to the rule
230 (07:46:42) joanie: so mgorse what do you think about a hackfest for Atk revamp in Spring in Northern Spain?
231 (07:47:23) mgorse: Who do we have there? Is that where API is? I guess we'll need someone there to find a venue for it
232 (07:47:31) joanie: API
233 (07:47:32) API: she said northern because we were talking
234 (07:47:32) joanie: Fer
235 (07:47:35) joanie: msanchez
236 (07:47:41) joanie: Evince maintainer
237 (07:47:49) joanie: Carlos
238 (07:47:50) danigm: I like that idea
239 (07:47:51) API: and as Igalia office was already used for some gnome hackfests
240 (07:47:54) danigm: :D
241 (07:48:03) API: gtk and webkitgtk hackfest
242 (07:48:03) ***joanie waves to danigm
243 (07:48:14) danigm: I'll be there
244 (07:48:15) API: it would be again a good place
245 (07:48:32) joanie: Also aleiva of course
246 (07:48:47) API: I asked internally here
247 (07:49:02) API: and for the moment, there is no problem to organize that on Igalia offices
248 (07:49:13) API: we just need to decide a date
249 (07:49:25) API: and then check if the office is free on that moment
250 (07:49:39) API: of course, if the hackfest is organized
251 (07:49:48) API: we are still debating that ;)
252 (07:50:04) API: mgorse, http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/GTK2010
253 (07:50:04) API: and
254 (07:50:08) joanie: I for one prefer disorganized ones
255 (07:50:09) API: http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/WebKitGTK2010
256 (07:50:16) API: were organized on igalia office
257 (07:50:55) joanie: So in summary, we have a season picked out, we have a venue that we think should work. mgorse what's your spring schedule look like?
258 (07:51:22) mgorse: I'm presumably going to CSUN at the end of March; I don't imagine it would matter to me other than that
259 (07:52:22) joanie: so you can be away for multiple weeks in the spring for work?
260 (07:52:41) joanie: I cannot so if I go to CSUN (panel seems to be back on), I'll fly out, present, and fly back
261 (07:53:22) mgorse: I should check to be sure but at this point I don't see one week being worse than another week, anyway
262 (07:53:40) joanie: cool
263 (07:54:05) joanie: so API, presumably April
264 (07:54:13) API: hmm, so you are proposing something like "atk hackfest just after CSUN"
265 (07:54:17) joanie: should the next step be to check the Igalia calendar?
266 (07:54:35) API: http://csunconference.org/
267 (07:54:39) joanie: API I don't think so
268 (07:54:40) API: it says in the middle of March
269 (07:54:43) joanie: csun is earlier this year
270 (07:54:43) API: ah ok
271 (07:54:44) joanie: yup
272 (07:54:54) API: I was thinking is something like middle of APril
273 (07:54:59) API: for the hackfest
274 (07:55:05) joanie: cool
275 (07:55:13) ***joanie looks at her calendar
276 (07:55:17) API: although it would be good to also check the spring holidays
277 (07:55:42) API: one error of the webkitgtk hackfest was that was organized
278 (07:55:51) API: a week with two spanish bank days
279 (07:56:15) joanie: I thought that was intentional
280 (07:56:20) joanie: so that people wouldn't miss work
281 (07:56:52) API: eh, no :P
282 (07:56:54) joanie: heh
283 (07:57:11) joanie: so API looking at the calendar, 4 April is when 3.0 tarballs are due
284 (07:57:25) joanie: if any of us are "last-minute" fixing stuff....
285 (07:57:46) joanie: so, the week of the 11th is good holiday-wize
286 (07:58:03) joanie: at least no u.s. and no federal spanish holidays
287 (07:58:09) ***joanie checks regional
288 (07:59:05) API: ok: so concluding
289 (07:59:14) API: atk hackfests seems a good idea
290 (07:59:24) API: action: lets check a date
291 (07:59:43) joanie: I've finished checking
292 (07:59:46) API: action: lets try to get in contact with other atk people
293 (08:00:01) API: hmmm, about that
294 (08:00:04) joanie: Depending on what Igalia's availability is.... The week of the 11th
295 (08:00:16) API: you want to organize that just after gnome 3 release?
296 (08:00:24) API: and anyway, when I said check dates
297 (08:00:26) joanie: I don't want it before
298 (08:00:28) joanie: ;-)
299 (08:00:33) API: it was related with the people
300 (08:00:39) API: get in contact with the people
301 (08:00:54) API: and check the best date for the bigger amount of people
302 (08:01:02) API: any other action?
303 (08:01:07) joanie: Right, but if we just toss out "when is good for you?" to a bunch of people....
304 (08:01:19) joanie: I'd rather toss out, "can you do the week of 11 April?"
305 (08:01:27) joanie: (if Igalia is available for us then)
306 (08:03:34) API: ah yes, of course starting with a proposed date
307 (08:04:01) API: but lets continue on the ml or whatever
308 (08:04:12) API: as we don't have more meeting time ;)
309 (08:04:20) API: anyway,
310 (08:04:24) API: before finish it
311 (08:04:27) API: miscellaneous time
312 (08:04:46) API: someone want to ask/say something not included on the meeting?
313 (08:05:23) mgorse: Does anyone know who works on Open Office / Libre Office a11y? I'll try to find out if not.
314 (08:05:34) joanie: mgorse: OpenOffice?
315 (08:05:36) joanie: Malte
316 (08:05:52) joanie: I don't know what's going on with LibreOffice a11y
317 (08:05:54) joanie: why?
318 (08:06:31) mgorse: okay; I guess we want to ask him if he can come to the hackfest
319 (08:06:38) joanie: mgorse: He's already on the list
320 (08:06:41) joanie: just like you were
321 (08:06:44) ***joanie smiles
322 (08:07:02) joanie: because he's in Germany, Spain is a short enough flight
323 (08:07:31) joanie: mgorse: but we've not informed Malte of this
324 (08:07:38) joanie: we need to send an email out
325 (08:07:59) joanie: we just wanted to find out what your availability is since you need to be there
326 (08:09:55) joanie: so... meeting adjourned?
327 (08:10:50) API: yes, I guess so
328 (08:11:01) API: well, thanks all to assist the meeting
329 (08:11:06) ***API all=4
330 (08:11:15) ***API + PovAddict
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