(07:01:20) API [~API@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] entered the room.
(07:03:14) API: is there someone here?
(07:03:29) joanie: just us chickens
(07:04:58) API: btw, joanie the other day we were talking about made a c&p
(07:05:12) API: of the idea
(07:05:15) API: of clutter people
(07:05:23) API: something like a a11y-meeting
(07:05:32) ***joanie nods
(07:05:44) API: we conclude that it was a good idea
(07:05:55) joanie: I think so
(07:05:58) API: but we didn't do anything :P
(07:06:02) joanie: we suck
(07:06:35) joanie: we can start doing that effective next week
(07:06:36) API: lets propose that for the next meeting
(07:06:39) joanie: I just noted it down
(07:06:42) ***joanie nods
(07:07:07) ***joanie wonders if given the hour AND the holiday if she and API are the only ones here
(07:07:41) danigm_out is now known as danigm
(07:07:45) API: lets start to gossip and make bad jokes of the people
(07:08:00) joanie: heh
(07:08:29) joanie: aleiva said he'd be in later. Possibly at half past the hour if he's lucky (commute)
(07:08:44) PovAddict: I'm here, sort of
(07:08:53) joanie: hey PovAddict
(07:08:56) joanie: (who are you?)
(07:09:04) PovAddict: but I shouldn't be
(07:09:24) joanie: you might get a bad rep hangin' out with us
(07:09:25) PovAddict: it's 4am, I keep failing my plans to fix my sleep schedule
(07:09:26) joanie: ;-)
(07:10:11) joanie: Sooooo.... API meet anyway or....
(07:10:27) PovAddict: meh, been in worse places :)
(07:12:13) API left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(07:12:28) joanie: and he's gone
(07:12:28) API [~API@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] entered the room.
(07:12:32) joanie: and he's back
(07:13:01) API: yep, weird logout
(07:13:07) API: automatic logout
(07:13:10) API: the new feature!
(07:13:13) API: at a random
(07:13:15) joanie: what distro?
(07:13:23) ***PovAddict already feels like he's in enemy territory anyway
(07:13:32) joanie: PovAddict: Why?
(07:13:39) joanie: and, again, who are you? :-)
(07:13:47) PovAddict: I'm a KDE guy :)
(07:13:48) joanie: we're glad you're here
(07:13:49) joanie: ah
(07:13:51) API: PovAddict, could you introduce yourself ;) ?
(07:13:51) joanie: gotcha
(07:13:59) API: ah ok
(07:14:11) joanie: no you're welcome here PovAddict
(07:14:13) API: well, as you can see, although we have weekly meetings
(07:14:29) mgorse: Okay. I'm here now. Sorry for being late.
(07:14:31) API: this is our not popular time
(07:14:32) joanie: Which are normally well attended even at this hour
(07:14:35) joanie: mike!
(07:14:39) joanie: yay!
(07:15:04) PovAddict: joanie: men are welcome in #debian-women too, still feels like enemy territory ;)
(07:15:27) joanie: heh I don't even hang out in the "women" channels
(07:15:32) joanie: that's always struck me as weird
(07:15:47) joanie: I mean, there's no #debian-men I assume
(07:15:48) joanie: ;-)
(07:16:23) joanie: anyhoo PovAddict on behalf of 1/2 of the Orca maintainership, we're very glad to see interest in a11y from the KDE camp
(07:16:43) joanie: we're hoping Orca will be able to provide access to KDE apps before too terribly long
(07:17:17) joanie: anyhoo API, since mgorse is here, does 3 make a quorum?
(07:17:33) API: yep, taking into account
(07:17:43) API: that we already waited for 15 minutes
(07:17:48) API: lets start the meeting ...
(07:18:00) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Meetings
(07:18:03) API: 1. Documentation
(07:18:07) PovAddict: I got interested for not-really-a11y reasons: a11y interfaces are usually useful for UI automation too
(07:18:11) API: joanie please
(07:18:37) joanie: Well, last update was that Shaunm was going to send a list of questions to the list
(07:18:41) PovAddict: and python-dogtail looked quite promising, to control another app's UI via at-spi
(07:18:55) joanie: I don't recall seeing that, but it's 02:18 here and I'm still waking up
(07:19:00) API: dogtail is mostly dead
(07:19:07) PovAddict: turns out it's all a lot more broken and incomplete than I expected :P
(07:19:11) joanie: The Orca docs have been converted to Mallard
(07:19:27) joanie: and put in our module
(07:19:37) joanie: so I guess what I'd like to know from the rest of the team, is:
(07:19:47) API: joanie, this was based on previous documentation or it was started from scratch?
(07:19:54) joanie: combination
(07:20:17) ***PovAddict was typing without reading, didn't notice official meeting start; shuts up now
(07:20:21) joanie: But what I'd like to know from the team is are their docs mallardized? do they expect help from the Doc Team, and if so, what help
(07:20:36) joanie: and no one is here to answer that ;-)
(07:20:44) joanie: but we can add it to the minutes/agenda
(07:20:51) joanie: We need better docs all around
(07:21:16) API: aha
(07:21:18) API: you mean
(07:21:21) API: start to dig people
(07:21:28) API: and asking if they 
(07:21:37) API: will move the documentation to mallard
(07:21:41) API: caribou
(07:21:46) ***joanie nods
(07:21:51) API: and at-spi2?
(07:21:55) joanie: and also: Are their docs up-to-date regardless?
(07:21:58) API: after all, mike is here ;)
(07:22:01) joanie: Orca's were not
(07:22:53) mgorse: Oh; does Mallard get used for reference docs, too?
(07:23:10) API: no afaik
(07:23:24) joanie: no?
(07:23:40) joanie: I thought we were going to be all-mallard all the time
(07:23:41) API: hmm
(07:23:50) API: I thought that mallard was more oriented to user documentation
(07:23:56) joanie: but desktop help is the starting point
(07:24:02) joanie: we should ask shaunm for clarification
(07:24:12) API: for example, this kind of documentation;:
(07:24:15) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/atk/stable/AtkObject.html
(07:24:16) joanie: but I think that developer docs need to be in mallard (or will be in mallard)
(07:24:22) ***joanie nods
(07:24:29) API: it is supposed to be migrated to mallard?
(07:24:37) joanie: hmmmm. that's autogenerated?
(07:24:45) API: yes
(07:24:53) joanie: so I guess that's a shaunm question
(07:25:01) joanie: surely we aren't going to stop autogenerating it
(07:25:06) API: or when you talk about mallard developer documentation you are talking about tutorials and so on?
(07:25:17) joanie: tutorials, accerciser docs, etc.
(07:25:30) joanie: Orca architecture and scripting stuff, bla bla bla
(07:26:34) PovAddict: the little docs I looked at seemed to be pretty good
(07:26:44) joanie: which ones PovAddict?
(07:26:47) API: aha, so the non-mallard developer documentation would be just the api reference
(07:26:50) API: right?
(07:27:03) joanie: It's a guess API, but probably
(07:27:22) joanie: or alternatively, mallard autogenerated
(07:27:31) mgorse: But, yeah, maybe we need an AT-side tutorial for AT-SPI as well
(07:27:46) joanie: mgorse: I think that would be cool
(07:27:54) joanie: especially for people wanting to triage bugs
(07:28:00) API: ok, so lets note down: ask shaun to clarify it
(07:28:04) joanie: yup
(07:28:19) API: shaunm I mean
(07:28:44) PovAddict: well, live.g.o/Accessibility/Mechanics explains how the entire thing works, which helped me get AT-SPI working with GTK apps under a KDE desktop (setting GTK_MODULES), and was quite educational in the gnome a11y startup process
(07:28:49) joanie: so conclusions are.... 1. Poke module maintainers to figure out where they are w.r.t. their docs. 2. Poke shaunm to find out what all is being migrated to mallard. Yes?
(07:30:14) joanie: PovAddict: Cool. 
(07:30:19) API: that comment from PovAddict remind me 
(07:30:23) PovAddict: draw a line on what migrates and what doesn't?
(07:30:28) API: our "we have our doc distributed" thing
(07:30:31) API: as 
(07:30:37) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Mechanics
(07:30:40) API: is similar to
(07:30:48) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/
(07:30:52) API: or more specifically to
(07:30:58) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/gad-how-it-works.html.en
(07:31:06) API: other thing that we need to check (again)
(07:31:16) API: is been sure that all our documentation is homogeneous
(07:31:19) API: and updated
(07:31:24) joanie: and in just one place
(07:31:25) joanie: ;-)
(07:31:26) API: and remove pages if other pages
(07:31:31) API: say the same
(07:31:35) API: yes
(07:32:12) PovAddict: or worse, if they are supposed to say the same but don't :)
(07:32:15) joanie: I'm tempted to deprecate all of our docs and start over.
(07:32:21) joanie: PovAddict: We have that issue
(07:32:25) API: PovAddict, see my "homoreneous" thing ;)
(07:32:56) API: joanie, well massive destruction is something that we also need to debate ;)
(07:33:02) PovAddict: joanie: starting over is always tempting, but often a bad idea
(07:33:14) joanie: You bring the gasoline, I'll bring the matches
(07:33:23) joanie: PovAddict: I was half joking
(07:33:54) joanie: but having done a complete redo of the Orca docs, I can honestly say that as painful as it was, it was worth it
(07:34:11) API: well, as we already set the actions, I think that we can move to next point
(07:34:13) joanie: anyhoo, we've deep dove into this topic
(07:34:22) ***joanie mutters something about "great minds"
(07:34:24) PovAddict: "programmers are architects at heart, and as architects, the first thing we want to do is bulldoze the place flat and build something grand"
(07:34:35) API: 2. AT-SPI/Atk API changes proposed 
(07:34:54) API: I also hated the architect analogy :P
(07:35:02) joanie: lol
(07:35:02) API: anyway, about the changes
(07:35:12) mgorse: Well, we do seem to rewrite things a lot :)
(07:35:14) API: fer mail didn't have too much responses
(07:35:27) ***joanie nods
(07:35:31) API: mgorse, you read that mail?
(07:35:38) mgorse: yeah
(07:35:42) joanie: I should reply. Been busy bulldozing
(07:35:55) API: well, I was able to reply
(07:36:07) API: anyway, in the end, it would require a bug on bugzilla
(07:36:07) ***joanie pats API on the back
(07:36:19) ***API checking if bugzilla is up, btw
(07:36:22) joanie: yup
(07:36:44) ***API is alive, alive!!
(07:36:49) mgorse: Yeah; not sure if fer was planning on making a patch or if one of us should
(07:36:57) API: ah
(07:36:59) API: good point
(07:37:06) joanie: Fer can I assume
(07:37:11) joanie: and he's the sort that would
(07:37:14) mgorse: I assume we're okay with the proposal, since no one objected to it
(07:37:16) joanie: I think he's waiting for blessing
(07:37:20) API: anyway, when I answered him
(07:37:24) API: I forgot something
(07:37:30) API: he said that at-spi should be updated
(07:37:43) API: but one thing to take into account
(07:37:53) API: that at that moment that signals can't replace the current ones
(07:38:02) API: I mean that the old ones should still work
(07:38:10) API: so at-spi (or at-spi2)
(07:38:10) joanie: I thought that was always the plan
(07:38:13) API: should manage both
(07:38:23) API: yes, but it is good to ask and confirm ;)
(07:38:28) API: anyway mgorse 
(07:38:30) joanie: gotcha
(07:38:37) API: it would be required to update at-spi?
(07:39:00) API: I mean the pyatspi2 API
(07:39:44) mgorse: Are we proposing adding text-insert//text-removed API into AT-SPI, or would it map them to text-changed events? It isn't clear to me whether we've decided that.
(07:40:38) PovAddict: ok ladies, time to sleep; have fun and I wish you consensus in the rest of the meeting :)
(07:40:49) API: well for the moment fer just proposed new signals for ATK
(07:40:49) mgorse: PovAddict: Night. Thanks for coming
(07:40:51) joanie: bye PovAddict
(07:40:58) API: bye PovAddict 
(07:41:08) joanie: PovAddict: BTW, I'm the only lady
(07:41:11) API: -> probably we should ask him to clarify the at-spi2 part
(07:41:15) joanie: well, stormy, but....
(07:41:25) API: and pendulum
(07:41:26) joanie: of those here and awake
(07:41:56) API: ah yep
(07:42:09) API: anyway, as action in this point
(07:42:11) PovAddict: I've seen 'bye ladies' said in female-less channels ;)
(07:42:21) joanie: heh
(07:42:45) API: try to answer fer mail, and try to clarify this point: at-spi2 relation, bugzilla interaction, and so on
(07:42:49) API: agree?
(07:43:04) joanie: agree
(07:43:28) API: ok, and related with this point
(07:43:33) API: on the last meeting
(07:43:53) API: joanie said that it would be a good idea to try to organize a ATK hackfest
(07:44:51) joanie: you waiting for me to finish that thought?
(07:44:58) API: ah sorry
(07:45:01) API: please go on
(07:45:04) joanie: lol
(07:45:06) joanie: okay
(07:45:15) ***API ups communication breakdown
(07:45:40) joanie: Yeah, so... As API pointed out, we have the Atk revamp slated on our roadmap for April 2011
(07:45:54) joanie: so I'm thinking we should have a hackfest in spring for this
(07:46:07) joanie: I also think that many of the stakeholders are already in Spain
(07:46:19) joanie: mgorse: and I being the exceptions to the rule
(07:46:42) joanie: so mgorse what do you think about a hackfest for Atk revamp in Spring in Northern Spain?
(07:47:23) mgorse: Who do we have there? Is that where API is? I guess we'll need someone there to find a venue for it
(07:47:31) joanie: API 
(07:47:32) API: she said northern because we were talking 
(07:47:32) joanie: Fer
(07:47:35) joanie: msanchez
(07:47:41) joanie: Evince maintainer
(07:47:49) joanie: Carlos
(07:47:50) danigm: I like that idea
(07:47:51) API: and as Igalia office was already used for some gnome hackfests
(07:47:54) danigm: :D
(07:48:03) API: gtk and webkitgtk hackfest
(07:48:03) ***joanie waves to danigm
(07:48:14) danigm: I'll be there
(07:48:15) API: it would be again a good place
(07:48:32) joanie: Also aleiva of course
(07:48:47) API: I asked internally here
(07:49:02) API: and for the moment, there is no problem to organize that on Igalia offices
(07:49:13) API: we just need to decide a date
(07:49:25) API: and then check if the office is free on that moment
(07:49:39) API: of course, if the hackfest is organized
(07:49:48) API: we are still debating that ;)
(07:50:04) API: mgorse, http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/GTK2010
(07:50:04) API: and
(07:50:08) joanie: I for one prefer disorganized ones
(07:50:09) API: http://live.gnome.org/Hackfests/WebKitGTK2010
(07:50:16) API: were organized on igalia office
(07:50:55) joanie: So in summary, we have a season picked out, we have a venue that we think should work. mgorse what's your spring schedule look like?
(07:51:22) mgorse: I'm presumably going to CSUN at the end of March; I don't imagine it would matter to me other than that
(07:52:22) joanie: so you can be away for multiple weeks in the spring for work?
(07:52:41) joanie: I cannot so if I go to CSUN (panel seems to be back on), I'll fly out, present, and fly back
(07:53:22) mgorse: I should check to be sure but at this point I don't see one week being worse than another week, anyway
(07:53:40) joanie: cool
(07:54:05) joanie: so API, presumably April
(07:54:13) API: hmm, so you are proposing something like "atk hackfest just after CSUN"
(07:54:17) joanie: should the next step be to check the Igalia calendar?
(07:54:35) API: http://csunconference.org/
(07:54:39) joanie: API I don't think so
(07:54:40) API: it says in the middle of March
(07:54:43) joanie: csun is earlier this year
(07:54:43) API: ah ok
(07:54:44) joanie: yup
(07:54:54) API: I was thinking is something like middle of APril
(07:54:59) API: for the hackfest
(07:55:05) joanie: cool
(07:55:13) ***joanie looks at her calendar
(07:55:17) API: although it would be good to also check the spring holidays
(07:55:42) API: one error of the webkitgtk hackfest was that was organized
(07:55:51) API: a week with two spanish bank days
(07:56:15) joanie: I thought that was intentional
(07:56:20) joanie: so that people wouldn't miss work
(07:56:52) API: eh, no :P
(07:56:54) joanie: heh
(07:57:11) joanie: so API looking at the calendar, 4 April is when 3.0 tarballs are due
(07:57:25) joanie: if any of us are "last-minute" fixing stuff....
(07:57:46) joanie: so, the week of the 11th is good holiday-wize
(07:58:03) joanie: at least no u.s. and no federal spanish holidays
(07:58:09) ***joanie checks regional
(07:59:05) API: ok: so concluding
(07:59:14) API: atk hackfests seems a good idea
(07:59:24) API: action: lets check a date
(07:59:43) joanie: I've finished checking
(07:59:46) API: action: lets try to get in contact with other atk people
(08:00:01) API: hmmm, about that
(08:00:04) joanie: Depending on what Igalia's availability is.... The week of the 11th
(08:00:16) API: you want to organize that just after gnome 3 release?
(08:00:24) API: and anyway, when I said check dates
(08:00:26) joanie: I don't want it before
(08:00:28) joanie: ;-)
(08:00:33) API: it was related with the people
(08:00:39) API: get in contact with the people
(08:00:54) API: and check the best date for the bigger amount of people
(08:01:02) API: any other action?
(08:01:07) joanie: Right, but if we just toss out "when is good for you?" to a bunch of people....
(08:01:19) joanie: I'd rather toss out, "can you do the week of 11 April?"
(08:01:27) joanie: (if Igalia is available for us then)
(08:03:34) API: ah yes, of course starting with a proposed date
(08:04:01) API: but lets continue on the ml or whatever
(08:04:12) API: as we don't have more meeting time ;)
(08:04:20) API: anyway, 
(08:04:24) API: before finish it
(08:04:27) API: miscellaneous time
(08:04:46) API: someone want to ask/say something not included on the meeting?
(08:05:23) mgorse: Does anyone know who works on Open Office / Libre Office a11y? I'll try to find out if not.
(08:05:34) joanie: mgorse: OpenOffice?
(08:05:36) joanie: Malte
(08:05:52) joanie: I don't know what's going on with LibreOffice a11y
(08:05:54) joanie: why?
(08:06:31) mgorse: okay; I guess we want to ask him if he can come to the hackfest
(08:06:38) joanie: mgorse: He's already on the list
(08:06:41) joanie: just like you were
(08:06:44) ***joanie smiles
(08:07:02) joanie: because he's in Germany, Spain is a short enough flight
(08:07:31) joanie: mgorse: but we've not informed Malte of this
(08:07:38) joanie: we need to send an email out
(08:07:59) joanie: we just wanted to find out what your availability is since you need to be there
(08:09:55) joanie: so... meeting adjourned?
(08:10:50) API: yes, I guess so
(08:11:01) API: well, thanks all to assist the meeting
(08:11:06) ***API all=4
(08:11:15) ***API + PovAddict