1 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec  9 08:04:51 2010
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   3 Dec 09 08:04:51 *	Now talking on #a11y
   4 Dec 09 08:04:51 *	Topic for #a11y is: Visit us at http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility | New weekly meeting times to be announced soon | See our latest meeting summary at http://bit.ly/ctMqVI | Follow us on Twitter:  @gnome_a11y | Subscribe to our mailing list at http://is.gd/bmcWR
   5 Dec 09 08:04:51 *	Topic for #a11y set by Bryen at Sat Apr 10 00:34:07 2010
   6 Dec 09 08:05:39 *	joanie waves to API
   7 Dec 09 08:05:41 <API>	hi, sorry I'm late
   8 Dec 09 08:05:48 <joanie>	no worries
   9 Dec 09 08:05:50 <API>	I have missed something?
  10 Dec 09 08:05:55 <joanie>	not here
  11 Dec 09 08:05:57 <joanie>	;-)
  12 Dec 09 08:06:44 <API>	ok
  13 Dec 09 08:06:52 <API>	well, 
  14 Dec 09 08:07:01 <API>	lets start this thing
  15 Dec 09 08:07:11 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20101202#Agenda_for_the_next_meeting
  16 Dec 09 08:07:28 <API>	point 1 is Roadmap
  17 Dec 09 08:07:30 *	shaunm (~shaunm@74.83.23.171) has joined #a11y
  18 Dec 09 08:07:33 <API>	joanie?
  19 Dec 09 08:07:48 <joanie>	Don't yet have the "cost" doc done BUT
  20 Dec 09 08:08:05 <joanie>	as you may have seen, Brian Cameon had posted the Board minutes from 11 Nov
  21 Dec 09 08:08:13 <joanie>	and that was the meeting I attended
  22 Dec 09 08:08:35 <joanie>	And so Dave Neary asked for both the Orca team roadmap and the A11y team roadmap
  23 Dec 09 08:08:54 <joanie>	and then Brian Cameron pointed this out to me privately 
  24 Dec 09 08:09:07 <joanie>	and yadda yadda yadda I've posted the roadmaps on the Foundation list
  25 Dec 09 08:09:31 <joanie>	and tossed out a couple of items in response to Dave's question for possible funded areas
  26 Dec 09 08:09:48 <joanie>	API I think you're on Foundation list, but I CC'ed you on that stuff anyway
  27 Dec 09 08:10:10 <joanie>	and in my most recent message have a 'I'll defer to Piñeiro' line
  28 Dec 09 08:10:11 <API>	joanie, yes Im on foundation list
  29 Dec 09 08:10:13 <joanie>	:-)
  30 Dec 09 08:10:24 <joanie>	so when you get caught up on all your email.... :-)
  31 Dec 09 08:10:41 <joanie>	and I'll try to get caught up on a needs-funding document
  32 Dec 09 08:11:43 <API>	well, I already said that
  33 Dec 09 08:11:58 <API>	with that mail I learned that NVDA
  34 Dec 09 08:12:04 <API>	is somewhat more popular for funding
  35 Dec 09 08:12:09 <API>	joanie, this is true?
  36 Dec 09 08:12:13 <joanie>	you said that?
  37 Dec 09 08:12:18 <joanie>	I don't know if it is or not
  38 Dec 09 08:12:18 <API>	or it is just a Dave Neary feeling?
  39 Dec 09 08:12:23 <API>	Dave Neary said that
  40 Dec 09 08:12:26 *	API looking
  41 Dec 09 08:12:28 <joanie>	I think it's a feeling
  42 Dec 09 08:12:31 <joanie>	yeah I saw that
  43 Dec 09 08:12:41 <joanie>	but having said that
  44 Dec 09 08:12:45 <joanie>	it's a reasonable feeling
  45 Dec 09 08:12:50 <API>	"Based on the Orca (or even a more general a11y) roadmap, it may be
  46 Dec 09 08:12:50 <API>	possible to get some funding from companies or associations interested
  47 Dec 09 08:12:50 <API>	in seeing Orca get better (although a lot of the associations seem to be
  48 Dec 09 08:12:50 <API>	focussing more on NVDA because it works on Windows)"
  49 Dec 09 08:12:52 <joanie>	Windows is more popular
  50 Dec 09 08:12:58 <joanie>	exactly
  51 Dec 09 08:13:09 <API>	please note that it is a C&P from Dave Neary mail
  52 Dec 09 08:13:11 <joanie>	BUT I am not aware of blindness associations focusing on them
  53 Dec 09 08:13:32 <joanie>	I think they're focused more on JAWS and Window-Eyes and training and the like
  54 Dec 09 08:13:35 <API>	them means Windows+NVDA?
  55 Dec 09 08:13:42 <joanie>	correct
  56 Dec 09 08:13:48 <API>	ok, thanks
  57 Dec 09 08:13:55 <joanie>	The two big donory things are ACB and NFB
  58 Dec 09 08:13:55 <API>	anyway this is somewhat offttopic
  59 Dec 09 08:14:03 <joanie>	NFB might be giving to them. But I don't know
  60 Dec 09 08:14:09 *	joanie nods
  61 Dec 09 08:14:10 <API>	anything else about the roadmap?
  62 Dec 09 08:14:18 *	joanie shakes her head
  63 Dec 09 08:14:22 *	joanie gets dizzy
  64 Dec 09 08:15:46 <API>	ok, so in summary, we have a roadmap
  65 Dec 09 08:16:05 <API>	although the un-funded section is still "work in progress", right?
  66 Dec 09 08:16:21 <joanie>	yup
  67 Dec 09 08:17:07 <API>	ok, people here
  68 Dec 09 08:17:18 <API>	any question/advice/complain
  69 Dec 09 08:17:30 <API>	about the roadmap/un-funded?
  70 Dec 09 08:18:14 *	joanie starts to complain and thinks the better of it
  71 Dec 09 08:18:15 <joanie>	;-)
  72 Dec 09 08:18:42 <joanie>	All kidding aside, would be nice to have Caribou
  73 Dec 09 08:19:04 <joanie>	especially since I raised it as a needs-funding candidate to the Foundation List
  74 Dec 09 08:19:17 <joanie>	but other than that I'm ready to move on if everyone else is
  75 Dec 09 08:19:39 *	API looking again the roadmap thing
  76 Dec 09 08:20:13 *	API Caribou in the same state
  77 Dec 09 08:20:26 <API>	eeejay, we are lucky? are you here?
  78 Dec 09 08:22:13 <API>	probably he didn't understand my broken grammar
  79 Dec 09 08:22:22 <API>	eeejay, are we lucky? are you here?
  80 Dec 09 08:22:29 *	joanie understands it
  81 Dec 09 08:25:53 <joanie>	I'm guessing eeejay is sleeping
  82 Dec 09 08:26:03 <API>	ok, so lets move to next point
  83 Dec 09 08:26:10 <API>	lets jump over point 2
  84 Dec 09 08:26:17 <API>	and directly to point 3
  85 Dec 09 08:26:22 <joanie>	yay!
  86 Dec 09 08:26:23 <joanie>	:-)
  87 Dec 09 08:26:35 <API>	Updating the GNOME Desktop Accessibility Guide
  88 Dec 09 08:26:35 <API>	    * Missing ATs
  89 Dec 09 08:26:35 <API>	    * Moving to Mallard 
  90 Dec 09 08:26:35 <joanie>	I see shaunm is here, but I'm betting he's sleeping
  91 Dec 09 08:26:52 <joanie>	and no one responded to my comment on the list
  92 Dec 09 08:27:09 <joanie>	but holy cow our docs need updating, mallardizing, increasing
  93 Dec 09 08:27:35 <joanie>	AND if I include what I've done for Orca into the gnome desktop a11y guide, it will not fit in with the rest
  94 Dec 09 08:27:38 <joanie>	:-(
  95 Dec 09 08:28:04 <joanie>	so I don't know if everyone else is quietly writing updated docs in mallard format suitable for inclusion in the desktop guide
  96 Dec 09 08:28:09 <joanie>	but I think we need to do *something*
  97 Dec 09 08:29:00 *	joanie yields the floor
  98 Dec 09 08:29:41 <API>	hmm, strange because shaunm joined the channel about 20 minutes ago
  99 Dec 09 08:29:50 <joanie>	oh
 100 Dec 09 08:29:54 <joanie>	maybe an autojoin
 101 Dec 09 08:30:47 <shaunm>	I'm here
 102 Dec 09 08:30:56 <joanie>	shaunm: !!! :-)
 103 Dec 09 08:30:58 <joanie>	hey
 104 Dec 09 08:31:05 <mgorse>	Hi
 105 Dec 09 08:31:12 <joanie>	did you see my email from the other day?
 106 Dec 09 08:31:21 <joanie>	about the GNOME desktop a11y guide?
 107 Dec 09 08:31:55 *	slee (~chatzilla@stevelee.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #a11y
 108 Dec 09 08:32:25 <shaunm>	joanie: yes, sorry, in my stack of things to reply to
 109 Dec 09 08:32:37 <joanie>	awesome and no worries
 110 Dec 09 08:32:37 <shaunm>	(hackfest kind of screwed up my already screwed up inbox)
 111 Dec 09 08:32:46 <joanie>	gotcha
 112 Dec 09 08:33:20 <joanie>	I still have to finish writing some pages but then it's like.... what do I do with them because of the existing state of our docs
 113 Dec 09 08:33:27 <joanie>	so when you get to inbox:0 ish
 114 Dec 09 08:33:45 <joanie>	if we could chat about that, it would be super
 115 Dec 09 08:33:55 <shaunm>	so quick answer: I *think* I'd like to do away with having a separate a11y guide
 116 Dec 09 08:34:16 <shaunm>	and roll information about the basic a11y features directly into the main desktop help
 117 Dec 09 08:34:30 <joanie>	right
 118 Dec 09 08:34:38 <joanie>	but what about the Orca guide
 119 Dec 09 08:34:42 <joanie>	and Accerciser 
 120 Dec 09 08:34:43 <joanie>	and Dots
 121 Dec 09 08:34:46 <joanie>	and etc.
 122 Dec 09 08:35:50 <shaunm>	what's Dots?
 123 Dec 09 08:35:56 <joanie>	in other words, right now, Orca and Gok are in the guide
 124 Dec 09 08:35:59 <joanie>	braille translation software
 125 Dec 09 08:37:29 <shaunm>	so shiny, happy, the-world-is-beautiful answer: mallard means you could develop the orca guide separately and just merge it into the desktop help
 126 Dec 09 08:37:50 *	joanie does like mallard
 127 Dec 09 08:38:12 <shaunm>	but more realistically: both the desktop help and the orca guide are probably going to be big, and merging their navigation might be difficult
 128 Dec 09 08:38:24 <shaunm>	i.e. it might just be easier to keep the orca guide separate
 129 Dec 09 08:38:54 <shaunm>	and we can still put like a page or something in the desktop help that says "oh hey, we have orca, check out its docs here"
 130 Dec 09 08:39:05 *	joanie nods
 131 Dec 09 08:39:29 <joanie>	so once I'm ready to show you what I have, what's the best place/way for me to get that to you
 132 Dec 09 08:39:39 <shaunm>	is it in git?
 133 Dec 09 08:39:40 <joanie>	commit it somewhere, or tarball?
 134 Dec 09 08:39:43 <joanie>	not yet
 135 Dec 09 08:40:10 <joanie>	because I've taken it all and redone it to the point it doesn't fit in the desktop guide
 136 Dec 09 08:40:19 <joanie>	in appearance, style, or anything
 137 Dec 09 08:40:29 <shaunm>	either works, really. but I like git
 138 Dec 09 08:40:40 <joanie>	okay
 139 Dec 09 08:40:52 <joanie>	I'll make a branch of the unstable docs
 140 Dec 09 08:40:54 <shaunm>	as for the other modules, I think it comes down to how extensive of help they need
 141 Dec 09 08:42:00 <joanie>	but if other a11y modules have help documentation, should that documentation go into the Destkop guide (or wherever Orca goes) if for no other reason as to be parallel and predictable?
 142 Dec 09 08:42:08 <shaunm>	I'm more concerned with whether anybody has time to work on the content for those modules. I have a team of ninjas that can work on organization if we have a pile of content
 143 Dec 09 08:42:22 *	joanie nods
 144 Dec 09 08:42:53 <joanie>	so in summary (I think) API I guess what we need to do next is poke and prod our team for their help content in whatever form it's in?
 145 Dec 09 08:43:12 <joanie>	so that we can get it to shaunm's ninjas
 146 Dec 09 08:43:23 *	joanie wants ninjas btw
 147 Dec 09 08:43:49 <mgorse>	Does Mallard get used for developer docs/tutorials, or just user docs? I was just chatting with someone who might want me to sit down with him and explain atk once I'm back  in ATX, and it reminded me that we really need a tutorial to help people  who want to implement it.
 148 Dec 09 08:43:55 <API>	joanie, so ask the different teams to write docs?
 149 Dec 09 08:44:16 <joanie>	yup. Or update what they have. Or just share them if they have updated docs
 150 Dec 09 08:44:20 <API>	mgorse, ATX?
 151 Dec 09 08:44:23 <slee>	what's the timescale?
 152 Dec 09 08:44:34 <mgorse>	API: Sorry. Austin, TX
 153 Dec 09 08:44:37 *	joanie waves to slee
 154 Dec 09 08:44:59 *	slee waves back and rubs sleep out of eyes
 155 Dec 09 08:45:10 <joanie>	shaunm: in terms of time, do docs have to live by the traditional GNOME string freezes?
 156 Dec 09 08:45:22 <shaunm>	so the keyboard/mouse a11y stuff in the control center, I think the doc team can manage that. probably with a couple questions along the way
 157 Dec 09 08:45:35 *	joanie nods
 158 Dec 09 08:46:03 <shaunm>	joanie: docs are not (yet) subject to any freezes. I have a voluntary freeze proposal we might try to do for 3.0
 159 Dec 09 08:46:49 <joanie>	awesome so then slee I guess time scale is really soon, when feasible
 160 Dec 09 08:46:52 <shaunm>	mgorse: so I just got back from the developer docs hackfest. we started writing introductory demo tutorials, each focusing on a particular piece of the platform.
 161 Dec 09 08:47:21 <shaunm>	mgorse: ATK was on our list of things we need to pester somebody to write a tutorial for, but that none of use knew how to do.
 162 Dec 09 08:47:30 <slee>	joanie: ok so doing at FOSDEM is out then
 163 Dec 09 08:47:35 <shaunm>	and we used mallard
 164 Dec 09 08:47:40 <joanie>	not necessarily
 165 Dec 09 08:47:56 <mgorse>	shaunm: Okay; thanks
 166 Dec 09 08:48:43 <joanie>	slee: oops the not necessarily was directed at you
 167 Dec 09 08:48:44 <shaunm>	but I'm format-agnostic, and will happily convert between formats for anybody who wants to focus on content
 168 Dec 09 08:48:56 <mgorse>	I could work on a tutorial forit; I'll talk with you off-line
 169 Dec 09 08:49:09 <shaunm>	awesome
 170 Dec 09 08:49:12 <mgorse>	 / take a look at mallard
 171 Dec 09 08:49:13 <joanie>	yay mgorse thanks for doing that!
 172 Dec 09 08:49:35 <slee>	joanie: OK - wondering if a intro and hack session on docs would work at FOSDEM
 173 Dec 09 08:50:04 <shaunm>	joanie: I'll look at the current a11y guide and the current moduleset and send an email to the a11y list within the next week
 174 Dec 09 08:50:05 <joanie>	interesting idea slee depending on who all is going, it might indeed
 175 Dec 09 08:50:07 <slee>	but not sure if it is mainly  presentations given call for papers
 176 Dec 09 08:50:23 <joanie>	shaunm: thanks!!! I really appreciate it
 177 Dec 09 08:50:36 <joanie>	and thanks for attending this crazy-houred meeting shaunm
 178 Dec 09 08:50:59 *	slee waves at shaunm
 179 Dec 09 08:51:06 <shaunm>	you folks always have crazy-houred meetings :P
 180 Dec 09 08:51:11 *	mgorse notices that we're at a meeting consisting mostly of Americans atm, and it's the middle of the night i America
 181 Dec 09 08:51:24 <slee>	were just crazy
 182 Dec 09 08:51:28 <joanie>	slee: I don't think it would be something you'd submit as much as, if you all are present at fosdem anyway, heck, write some docs
 183 Dec 09 08:51:40 <API>	shaunm, we use a flip flop time table
 184 Dec 09 08:51:47 <API>	7:00 UTC one week
 185 Dec 09 08:51:51 <API>	15:00 UTC the next one
 186 Dec 09 08:51:57 <slee>	joanie: good point
 187 Dec 09 08:51:58 <shaunm>	that seems fair
 188 Dec 09 08:52:15 <shaunm>	ok, I'm off to bed
 189 Dec 09 08:52:22 <joanie>	g'night shaunm
 190 Dec 09 08:52:52 <API>	for minutes sake, joanie, could you make a brief summary of this point?
 191 Dec 09 08:53:08 <joanie>	sure
 192 Dec 09 08:53:23 *	slee smiles at API
 193 Dec 09 08:53:34 <joanie>	1 I will finish the Orca docs and create a branch of unstable for Shaunm to review
 194 Dec 09 08:53:58 <joanie>	2 We need to ping everyone else to say "update/write your docs please"
 195 Dec 09 08:54:19 <joanie>	3 Shaunm will review our existing docs and modules and write the a11y list within the next week
 196 Dec 09 08:54:45 <joanie>	4 We should consider a get-together/doc-writing session at FOSDEM (unofficial, to get work done)
 197 Dec 09 08:54:50 *	joanie thinks that's it
 198 Dec 09 08:55:20 <joanie>	2a write them in whatever format you want as shaunm has ninjas
 199 Dec 09 08:55:27 <joanie>	but just write them
 200 Dec 09 08:55:31 *	joanie is done
 201 Dec 09 08:56:17 <API>	joanie, ok thanks
 202 Dec 09 08:56:24 <API>	well, I guess that this point is over
 203 Dec 09 08:56:30 <API>	5 minutes til the end
 204 Dec 09 08:56:31 <joanie>	thank you. Definitely worth having that discussion.
 205 Dec 09 08:56:38 *	slee likes 2a
 206 Dec 09 08:56:48 <API>	so lets start miscellaneous time
 207 Dec 09 08:57:20 <API>	anyone wants to comment/ask something in this ~5 minutes=
 208 Dec 09 08:57:21 <API>	?
 209 Dec 09 08:58:52 <slee>	is there a GNOME FOSDEM page? I've been very lax of following tread
 210 Dec 09 08:58:58 <slee>	will check archives if not
 211 Dec 09 08:59:01 <slee>	think is awesome
 212 Dec 09 08:59:45 <API>	slee, you mean this thread about accessibility devroom on FOSDEM?
 213 Dec 09 08:59:52 <API>	or other thread?
 214 Dec 09 09:00:28 <slee>	API: yes - was there another related one?
 215 Dec 09 09:01:34 <API>	slee, no idea, this is the reason im asking
 216 Dec 09 09:01:45 <API>	but you were talking about GNOME FOSDEM page
 217 Dec 09 09:01:52 <API>	ant that thread was about 
 218 Dec 09 09:02:05 <API>	first about accessibility talks on the main track
 219 Dec 09 09:02:12 <API>	and then an accessibility devroom
 220 Dec 09 09:02:48 <slee>	API sounds like I need to read the archives
 221 Dec 09 09:03:05 <API>	slee, 
 222 Dec 09 09:03:06 <API>	anyway
 223 Dec 09 09:03:09 <API>	see this link
 224 Dec 09 09:03:13 <API>	http://www.fosdem.org/2011/
 225 Dec 09 09:03:25 <API>	on "call for participation"
 226 Dec 09 09:03:34 <API>	there are a accessibiility devroom
 227 Dec 09 09:03:34 <slee>	API - yes have that - wanted the GNOME specifics
 228 Dec 09 09:03:36 <API>	accessibility
 229 Dec 09 09:03:49 <API>	and here the announcement
 230 Dec 09 09:03:54 <API>	http://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2010-December/001100.html
 231 Dec 09 09:03:59 <slee>	I plan to go as so many things going on
 232 Dec 09 09:04:05 <slee>	API: tah
 233 Dec 09 09:05:10 *	slee tweets for GNOME doc writers
 234 Dec 09 09:06:23 <API>	well, 5 minutes over time
 235 Dec 09 09:06:39 <API>	I think that we can say that the meeting is over
 236 Dec 09 09:06:42 <API>	in
 237 Dec 09 09:06:43 <API>	3
 238 Dec 09 09:06:44 <API>	2
 239 Dec 09 09:06:44 <API>	1
 240 Dec 09 09:06:47 <API>	meeting over
 241 Dec 09 09:06:53 <joanie>	:-)
 242 Dec 09 09:06:55 *	slee hold on
 243 Dec 09 09:07:00 <joanie>	too late
 244 Dec 09 09:07:00 <API>	thanks you very much for being here
 245 Dec 09 09:07:03 <slee>	just joking
 246 Dec 09 09:07:13 <joanie>	you snooz you lose
 247 Dec 09 09:07:18 <API>	specially all with a crazy nighttime
 248 Dec 09 09:07:20 <slee>	bah