**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 11 07:40:00 2010

Nov 11 07:40:00 *	Now talking on #a11y
Nov 11 07:40:01 *	Topic for #a11y is: Visit us at http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility | New weekly meeting times to be announced soon | See our latest meeting summary at http://bit.ly/ctMqVI | Follow us on Twitter:  @gnome_a11y | Subscribe to our mailing list at http://is.gd/bmcWR
Nov 11 07:40:01 *	Topic for #a11y set by Bryen at Sat Apr 10 00:34:07 2010
Nov 11 07:41:17 *	joanie (~jd@c-98-217-239-60.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #a11y
Nov 11 07:53:52 *	FlaPer87 (~flavioper@83-103-19-90.ip.fastwebnet.it) has joined #a11y
Nov 11 08:01:13 *	msanchez (~msanchez@44.24.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y
Nov 11 08:03:22 *	yevlempy (~yevlempy@115.248.34.146) has joined #a11y
Nov 11 08:05:51 <aleiva>	morning or something similar
Nov 11 08:06:01 <joanie>	aleiva: dang you're up too
Nov 11 08:06:17 <joanie>	way to go dedicated (but sleep-deprived) Orca team
Nov 11 08:06:29 <API>	hello, I think that 5 minutes waiting for sleepy people is enough
Nov 11 08:07:53 *	jrocha (~JRocha@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y
Nov 11 08:08:01 <aleiva>	so
Nov 11 08:08:10 <API>	well, checking agenda
Nov 11 08:08:14 <API>	today here
Nov 11 08:08:17 <aleiva>	ok, thanks API :-)
Nov 11 08:08:23 *	danigm_out is now known as danigm
Nov 11 08:08:23 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20101104#Agenda_for_the_next_meeting
Nov 11 08:09:12 <API>	1. is this google-in code in....
Nov 11 08:09:28 <API>	I guess that finally we would require to contact Bryen directly
Nov 11 08:09:50 <API>	so lets move to point 2
Nov 11 08:09:54 <API>	Boston summit
Nov 11 08:10:06 <API>	so, impressions?
Nov 11 08:10:08 <API>	AFAIR
Nov 11 08:10:23 <API>	joanie, aleiva mgorse were there
Nov 11 08:12:06 <joanie>	Well, let's see
Nov 11 08:12:20 <joanie>	we actually got to attend Heidi's student's presentation
Nov 11 08:12:25 <joanie>	which was very cool 
Nov 11 08:12:58 <joanie>	But it also seems like these students could use some more guidance from us
Nov 11 08:13:36 <joanie>	And if I recall correctly, Heidi's not been able to connect with the folks currently working on Caribou from the CFR
Nov 11 08:13:46 <joanie>	aleiva is going to help with that
Nov 11 08:13:52 <joanie>	(the connections)
Nov 11 08:14:13 *	joanie pauses to see if aleiva has anything to add on that front (Heidi/caribou)
Nov 11 08:14:58 *	joanie assumes not
Nov 11 08:15:01 <joanie>	okay, moving on
Nov 11 08:15:04 <aleiva>	nothing more, we agree that we need to connect current people that is doing
Nov 11 08:15:07 <aleiva>	thanks for wait
Nov 11 08:15:15 <joanie>	we also met with the gnome-shell folks
Nov 11 08:15:27 <joanie>	and some others regarding a11y infrastructurey things
Nov 11 08:15:31 <joanie>	but mostly the shell
Nov 11 08:15:56 <joanie>	Lots of discussion on how to "integrate" (or get better working together) Orca and gnome-shell
Nov 11 08:16:00 <joanie>	and lots of good ideas
Nov 11 08:16:05 <API>	a11y infrastructurey things?
Nov 11 08:16:06 <joanie>	and plenty of questions
Nov 11 08:16:14 <joanie>	API yeah
Nov 11 08:16:15 <joanie>	:-)
Nov 11 08:16:37 <joanie>	Benjamin Otte is taking an interest in Atk, AT-SPI, toolkit implementation, etc.
Nov 11 08:16:48 <joanie>	which I think is marvelous because it seems that he is brilliant
Nov 11 08:17:01 <joanie>	and brilliant fresh blood from existing developers is always welcome
Nov 11 08:17:03 <API>	he is thinking on help on this part?
Nov 11 08:17:14 <joanie>	that isn't entirely clear to me
Nov 11 08:17:20 <joanie>	he's definitely curious and concerned
Nov 11 08:17:24 <joanie>	and busy with other things
Nov 11 08:17:41 <API>	yes, AFAIK he is really busy
Nov 11 08:17:42 <joanie>	I encouraged Benjamin to ask his questions on the gnome-accessibility-list
Nov 11 08:17:52 <API>	he id doing all this gdk revamp
Nov 11 08:18:02 <API>	he was here to the gtk hackfest
Nov 11 08:18:06 <API>	and he will be here
Nov 11 08:18:10 <joanie>	even if all he does is participate in discussions to help us think things through, that would be someting
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Nov 11 08:19:49 2010

Nov 11 08:19:49 *	Now talking on #a11y
Nov 11 08:19:55 <API>	urgh
Nov 11 08:19:59 <joanie>	heh
Nov 11 08:20:04 <joanie>	welcome back API
Nov 11 08:20:12 <API>	for any reason I was logged out
Nov 11 08:20:14 <API>	anyway
Nov 11 08:20:16 <API>	blabla
Nov 11 08:20:18 <joanie>	so as I was saying (or about to say)
Nov 11 08:20:22 <API>	Benjamin is really busy
Nov 11 08:20:30 <joanie>	since Benjamin will be in Coruņa
Nov 11 08:20:30 <API>	he will be here (coruņa) again for the webkig
Nov 11 08:20:35 <joanie>	and since you're already there
Nov 11 08:20:37 <API>	webkitgtk hackfest
Nov 11 08:20:40 <joanie>	perhaps you can touch base with him
Nov 11 08:20:48 <joanie>	about Boston and his thoughts and his questions
Nov 11 08:21:01 <joanie>	(you really should have been at the Summit API)
Nov 11 08:21:08 <joanie>	anyway....
Nov 11 08:21:22 <API>	well, if he is really interested he would touch base by himself ;)
Nov 11 08:21:25 <API>	anyway
Nov 11 08:21:37 <joanie>	Point taken
Nov 11 08:21:41 <API>	anything else about boston summit?
Nov 11 08:21:46 <joanie>	But as I was also told at the summit
Nov 11 08:22:01 <joanie>	we are apparently expected to be The ReacherOuters
Nov 11 08:22:03 <joanie>	:-P
Nov 11 08:22:13 <joanie>	aleiva: other things about the summit
Nov 11 08:22:17 *	joanie yields the floor
Nov 11 08:22:24 <aleiva>	compiz-ezoom
Nov 11 08:22:28 <joanie>	ohhh
Nov 11 08:22:28 <joanie>	yeah
Nov 11 08:22:39 <joanie>	aleiva: do share please
Nov 11 08:22:40 <joanie>	:-)
Nov 11 08:22:54 <aleiva>	multitasking, sorry
Nov 11 08:22:54 <aleiva>	so
Nov 11 08:23:07 <API>	you were told to be the reachouters?
Nov 11 08:23:09 <API>	explicitly?
Nov 11 08:23:41 <aleiva>	we start to talk with Kristian about the current implementation of ezoom and what is needed to integrate in Orca
Nov 11 08:24:55 <aleiva>	summarizing, Orca is a screen reader, magnifier is not our bussiness. Then, we define a roadmap to see what is needed to be done in ezoom to be compatible with at-spi
Nov 11 08:26:06 <API>	ok
Nov 11 08:26:13 <API>	mgorse, something from your side?
Nov 11 08:26:47 <mgorse>	about the summit?
Nov 11 08:26:50 <API>	yes
Nov 11 08:27:05 <API>	we are now talking about boston summit update
Nov 11 08:27:45 <mgorse>	I talked with j5 a bit; made progress on some gobject introspection related issues I was having with at-spi
Nov 11 08:28:06 <API>	j5 is john palmieri?
Nov 11 08:28:11 <aleiva>	yup
Nov 11 08:28:12 <mgorse>	yes
Nov 11 08:28:16 <API>	ok, thanks
Nov 11 08:28:20 <API>	go on please
Nov 11 08:28:50 <mgorse>	and went to the Caribou presentation and uniersal acessibility discussion, and some other general talks
Nov 11 08:30:20 <API>	ok, thanks
Nov 11 08:30:47 <API>	well, I think that it is enough about Boston Summit
Nov 11 08:31:01 <API>	hmm, OgMaciel you were also on BSummit
Nov 11 08:31:14 <API>	do you want to share anything?
Nov 11 08:34:37 <API>	ok, enough time waiting ;)
Nov 11 08:34:39 <API>	lets move
Nov 11 08:34:53 <API>	next item
Nov 11 08:34:55 <API>	Status of the migration to PyGObject GnomeGoals/PythonIntrospectionPorting https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=626218
Nov 11 08:35:09 <API>	we already talked about this some months ago
Nov 11 08:35:19 <API>	but I think that we postponed that
Nov 11 08:35:35 <API>	because we were not sure about the pygobject status
Nov 11 08:36:00 <API>	this affects at least, to orca, caribou and accerciser
Nov 11 08:36:18 <API>	aleiva, joanie do you have any plan here?
Nov 11 08:36:25 <aleiva>	I don't expect to be extremely hard in Orca if no side-effects appear
Nov 11 08:36:29 *	joanie chuckles
Nov 11 08:37:04 <API>	well, that would mean that it wouldnt be difficult to do
Nov 11 08:37:08 <API>	my question was more
Nov 11 08:37:09 <aleiva>	but, in the Orca side, nothing has been done yet. Only analyze the current situation of pygobject what's the difference and so
Nov 11 08:37:18 <API>	yes, that
Nov 11 08:38:08 <aleiva>	plan
Nov 11 08:38:08 <aleiva>	the plan is I'm going to dig on it
Nov 11 08:38:08 <aleiva>	this is a spare-time task, then
Nov 11 08:38:14 <API>	hmm
Nov 11 08:38:24 *	yevlempy is now known as yev|away
Nov 11 08:38:37 <API>	but what we need to ask if pygtk is going to be deprecated to gnome 3.0
Nov 11 08:38:42 <API>	if this is the case
Nov 11 08:38:45 <aleiva>	anyway I expect it sooner than later
Nov 11 08:38:57 <API>	this task is another gnome 3.0 risk
Nov 11 08:40:13 <API>	bnitz, any plan on accerciser?
Nov 11 08:41:57 <joanie>	aleiva: and I will help you of course
Nov 11 08:41:57 <joanie>	but I'm defering to your expertise here 
Nov 11 08:41:57 <joanie>	to figure out what it is we need to do
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	that's clear
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	is more the testing phase what where I need help
Nov 11 08:41:57 <joanie>	I can help you with that as well
Nov 11 08:41:57 <joanie>	though a full 3.0 testing environment is desired
Nov 11 08:41:57 <joanie>	we can at least get started
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	I know, thanks joanie 
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	API: replying to your question, the plan is try to add this in our tight schedule
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	thight08:14 <aleiva> pff
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	08:14 <aleiva> well,
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	awesome copy and paste again
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	sorry
Nov 11 08:41:57 *	joanie laughs
Nov 11 08:41:57 <joanie>	02:00 meetings are fun, ain't they? :-P
Nov 11 08:41:57 <aleiva>	joanie: last time happens to me at 16:00 then I don't see the difference :-)
Nov 11 08:42:39 <API>	;)
Nov 11 08:42:45 <aleiva>	moving on?
Nov 11 08:42:46 <API>	danigm, you here?
Nov 11 08:42:57 *	aleiva turn into a blue man
Nov 11 08:43:35 <API>	well, it seems that we are mostly alone
Nov 11 08:43:38 <API>	so yes lets move
Nov 11 08:43:40 *	joanie shoves another marshmallow at aleiva and then splatters paint
Nov 11 08:44:01 <API>	GNOME 3.0 updates
Nov 11 08:44:20 <API>	well, if we confirm that pygtk is going to be deprecated
Nov 11 08:44:30 <API>	this is also a GNOME 3.0 issue
Nov 11 08:44:31 <aleiva>	I think so
Nov 11 08:44:38 <API>	we should send a list to the mail
Nov 11 08:44:39 <API>	ups
Nov 11 08:44:43 <API>	we should send a mail to the list
Nov 11 08:44:46 <API>	desktop devel list
Nov 11 08:45:01 <API>	or gtk one
Nov 11 08:45:03 <danigm>	API: yep
Nov 11 08:45:11 <API>	ah, hello danigm 
Nov 11 08:45:17 <API>	you are still working on Caribou?
Nov 11 08:46:19 <danigm>	I never worked in caribou...
Nov 11 08:46:21 <aleiva>	danigm was working in caribou? I don't think so he was working in evince, but danigm can explan far better han me
Nov 11 08:46:51 <aleiva>	API: people from <I need to remember again the company> was working in caribou
Nov 11 08:46:55 <aleiva>	WARP
Nov 11 08:47:10 <API>	danigm, ups sorry
Nov 11 08:47:18 <aleiva>	yes, Warp
Nov 11 08:47:18 <API>	my fault
Nov 11 08:48:14 <API>	I mistook david with daniel
Nov 11 08:48:43 <API>	anyway, as we are on gnome 3.0, and as I already disturbed you
Nov 11 08:48:56 <API>	danigm, any update on evince a11y status?
Nov 11 08:49:24 <danigm>	API: no
Nov 11 08:49:37 <API>	ok, thanks
Nov 11 08:50:01 <API>	lets continue about GNOME 3.0 update
Nov 11 08:50:03 <API>	ah yes
Nov 11 08:50:07 <API>	about gnome-panel
Nov 11 08:50:16 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#gnome-panel
Nov 11 08:50:26 <API>	I sent a mail to Fer and Carlos
Nov 11 08:50:34 <API>	and no, they didn't work directly on it
Nov 11 08:50:44 <API>	I will edit that section with his answer
Nov 11 08:50:53 <API>	but Carlos also told me that
Nov 11 08:51:01 <API>	gnome-panel is somewhat forgotten
Nov 11 08:51:10 <API>	no gtk 3.0 or gsettings migration
Nov 11 08:51:15 <API>	this is not a surprise
Nov 11 08:51:37 <API>	but not a good situation
Nov 11 08:51:41 <API>	as gnome-shell mantra also
Nov 11 08:51:43 <API>	includes
Nov 11 08:51:53 <API>	"for people without the proper hw 3d support
Nov 11 08:52:04 <API>	you will have the blessed gnome-panel, dont worry"
Nov 11 08:52:39 <API>	so, again, I guess that we will need to bother desktop-devel or 
Nov 11 08:52:40 <API>	hmm
Nov 11 08:52:59 <API>	which list you use when you want to ask something about gnome-panel?
Nov 11 08:54:55 <API>	makes sense?
Nov 11 08:55:13 <aleiva>	I'll use desktop-dev I don't know if exists a gnome-panel specific :-/
Nov 11 08:55:31 <API>	any other quick GNOME 3.0 update?
Nov 11 08:56:12 <aleiva>	umh, not exactly related but there was some talks about unity in boston summit
Nov 11 08:56:24 <aleiva>	what I want to say is
Nov 11 08:56:39 <aleiva>	for me, it seems like GNOME 3.0 is going to be a real platform
Nov 11 08:56:49 <aleiva>	with excessive amount of windows-managers
Nov 11 08:56:49 <aleiva>	:-D
Nov 11 08:57:24 <API>	well, aleiva although unity will be in the ecosystem
Nov 11 08:57:35 <API>	I doubt that it will be a core gnome 
Nov 11 08:57:37 <API>	module
Nov 11 08:57:46 <aleiva>	no, absolutely not
Nov 11 08:57:56 <API>	so, it is something to watch out
Nov 11 08:58:12 <API>	but not a "real" issue
Nov 11 08:58:24 <API>	ok, so lets conclude GNOME 3.0 and
Nov 11 08:58:27 <aleiva>	API: yeah, I only added as curiosity, something to watch
Nov 11 08:58:32 <API>	with just 2 minutes left
Nov 11 08:58:36 <API>	aleiva, of course
Nov 11 08:58:37 <API>	with just 2 minutes left
Nov 11 08:58:42 <API>	miscellaneous time!
Nov 11 08:58:49 *	aleiva goes to sleep
Nov 11 08:59:15 <joanie>	I've only got one
Nov 11 08:59:17 <API>	has anyone something else to say not included on the agenda?
Nov 11 08:59:21 <API>	shoot
Nov 11 08:59:24 <joanie>	Just for the record
Nov 11 08:59:36 <joanie>	since we were, uh, absent from the Q2 gnome report
Nov 11 08:59:47 <joanie>	We will be present in the Q3s
Nov 11 09:00:00 <joanie>	I added our report to the GNOME Marketing wiki: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeMarketing/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q3#Accessibility_Team
Nov 11 09:00:18 <joanie>	and want to thank everyone who submitted something on the a11y team wiki for q3
Nov 11 09:00:30 <joanie>	the reality is, if you look at everything we did
Nov 11 09:00:42 <joanie>	our little team does an AMAZING amount
Nov 11 09:00:59 <joanie>	with not that many resources
Nov 11 09:01:05 <joanie>	that's all
Nov 11 09:01:10 <API>	goo
Nov 11 09:01:12 <API>	d
Nov 11 09:01:14 <API>	hmm
Nov 11 09:01:15 <API>	good
Nov 11 09:01:20 <joanie>	goo is good
Nov 11 09:01:29 <API>	anything else? people?
Nov 11 09:01:30 <API>	...
Nov 11 09:02:03 <msanchez>	not sure whether is worth mentioning but...
Nov 11 09:02:45 <msanchez>	in the webkitgtk front I'd just want to say that we're approaching a point where almost all the bugs blocking ORCA support are fixed (I mean for static -basic- content)
Nov 11 09:03:19 <API>	yeah, joanie just a crazy idea
Nov 11 09:03:30 <API>	but probably it would be good to redefine the scope
Nov 11 09:03:34 <API>	of the current meta-bug
Nov 11 09:03:35 <msanchez>	and that we were lucky enough to have KaL helping as well during these past two weeks with a couple of bugs that were worrying me a lot (you know joanie, those ones I was lost about)
Nov 11 09:03:42 <joanie>	msanchez: you so, so, so rock
Nov 11 09:03:46 <API>	instead of the generic one used now
Nov 11 09:03:54 <API>	if not, this bug will be there for ages
Nov 11 09:03:56 <joanie>	msanchez: you're never lost
Nov 11 09:04:01 <joanie>	API I agree
Nov 11 09:04:12 <aleiva>	msanchez: congratulations
Nov 11 09:04:14 <joanie>	I was honestly planning on creating a new metabug
Nov 11 09:04:20 <joanie>	after checking with y'all
Nov 11 09:04:35 <aleiva>	joanie: we decided that?
Nov 11 09:04:41 <joanie>	and only adding stuff to 25531 if they impact the original goal (basic support for yelp)
Nov 11 09:04:41 <aleiva>	I think so
Nov 11 09:04:48 <aleiva>	or is another metabug?
Nov 11 09:04:49 <joanie>	aleiva: secided what?
Nov 11 09:04:52 <aleiva>	I need to sleep
Nov 11 09:04:58 <joanie>	aleiva: you need to sleep ;-)
Nov 11 09:05:00 <joanie>	aleiva: but
Nov 11 09:05:13 <joanie>	we have an existing WebKitGtk (in their tracker) metabug
Nov 11 09:05:17 <msanchez>	thing is that, current status wrt that metabug is: 7 bugs pending, 3 of them with proposed patches, 1 work-in-progress and the other 3 in the TODO queue
Nov 11 09:05:30 <joanie>	aleiva: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25531
Nov 11 09:05:40 <aleiva>	yes, I know
Nov 11 09:05:46 <joanie>	msanchez: there will be at least one more bug I will add
Nov 11 09:05:57 <joanie>	there's something strange going on with text selection caret offsets
Nov 11 09:06:04 <msanchez>	just wanted to share with you all the status so you get a rough picture
Nov 11 09:06:20 <msanchez>	joanie: great. I was expecting that (and even more bugs) after the summit
Nov 11 09:06:33 <joanie>	aleiva: So the point of that original bug was basic support with the (unwritten) intent/target of Yelp 3.0
Nov 11 09:06:51 <joanie>	aleiva: So creating a new Orca metabug in their tracker serves one main purpose
Nov 11 09:07:01 <joanie>	closure for those developers (Igalians mostly)
Nov 11 09:07:11 <joanie>	because they will have successfully achieved their goal
Nov 11 09:07:21 <joanie>	and new stuff is new work imho
Nov 11 09:07:24 <joanie>	anyhoo....
Nov 11 09:07:33 <joanie>	msanchez: I'm not so sure about "even more bugs"
Nov 11 09:07:43 <joanie>	for the most part, things are honestly "just working"
Nov 11 09:07:49 <joanie>	you should try it with Orca ;-)
Nov 11 09:08:02 <joanie>	you really have done an amazing amount of very cool work msanchez
Nov 11 09:08:22 <msanchez>	joanie: well, I meant I wouldn't be surprised if you filed a bunch of them after boston, but if you don't do it perhaps that's a good sign :-)
Nov 11 09:08:26 <msanchez>	thx
Nov 11 09:08:40 <joanie>	(it's a good sign)
Nov 11 09:09:08 <API>	well, almost 10 minutes over time
Nov 11 09:09:10 <msanchez>	It could have been even better if this past month I was not jinxed (broken environment, broken laptop, too much paperwork...)
Nov 11 09:09:12 <API>	anything else?
Nov 11 09:09:17 <msanchez>	nope from my side
Nov 11 09:09:22 <joanie>	nothing here
Nov 11 09:09:27 <API>	apart of complain about laptop problems ;)
Nov 11 09:09:32 <joanie>	lol
Nov 11 09:09:37 <API>	ok, so lets close the meeting
Nov 11 09:09:39 <msanchez>	not complaining, just sharing
Nov 11 09:09:41 <API>	a11y meeting over