**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 28 09:14:12 2010

Oct 28 09:14:12 *	Now talking on #a11y
Oct 28 09:14:35 <API>	sorry the delay
Oct 28 09:14:48 <joanie>	API no worries. I needed more coffee anyway.
Oct 28 09:14:52 <API>	what have I miss?
Oct 28 09:14:58 <API>	missed
Oct 28 09:14:59 <joanie>	Me getting coffee
Oct 28 09:15:08 <joanie>	It ain't a party (or a meeting) without you
Oct 28 09:15:11 <API>	impressive
Oct 28 09:15:18 <API>	now I feel guilty
Oct 28 09:15:35 <joanie>	Don't. But having lived the Spanish life for a few weeks, this time is early for Spain
Oct 28 09:15:38 <joanie>	so we should discuss
Oct 28 09:15:45 <joanie>	but we have a full agenda already so....
Oct 28 09:16:01 <API>	joanie, shouldn't be early, I usually I'm in the office early
Oct 28 09:16:06 <API>	anyway ...
Oct 28 09:16:08 <API>	yes agenda
Oct 28 09:16:13 <API>	first point
Oct 28 09:16:17 <API>	the big new of the week
Oct 28 09:16:27 <API>	Unity as default on ubuntu desktop 
Oct 28 09:16:35 <API>	not only netbooks
Oct 28 09:16:41 *	joanie chuckles
Oct 28 09:17:23 <API>	we already talked about it on the channel
Oct 28 09:17:29 <API>	but TheMuso anything else to add?
Oct 28 09:17:34 *	bnitz_ has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
Oct 28 09:18:47 <joanie>	API I think TheMuso is at UDS (or traveling back)
Oct 28 09:18:59 <joanie>	UDS was an east coast event. It's 03:19 here
Oct 28 09:19:09 <joanie>	So.... For the purpose of minutes
Oct 28 09:19:23 <API>	yeah
Oct 28 09:19:25 <API>	well
Oct 28 09:19:30 <API>	for the purpose of minutes
Oct 28 09:19:37 <API>	TheMuso, Luke Yelavich
Oct 28 09:19:43 <joanie>	TheMuso is going to be leading a11y efforts. Apparently Canonical had the good sense to realize Unity ain't accessible and that this is indeed a problem.
Oct 28 09:19:45 <API>	will work on Unity accessibitlity
Oct 28 09:19:46 <joanie>	oops
Oct 28 09:19:49 <API>	ups going on
Oct 28 09:19:49 <joanie>	go ahead
Oct 28 09:20:16 *	API deadlock
Oct 28 09:20:24 *	joanie gives the floor to API
Oct 28 09:20:34 <API>	well, it is only required to add
Oct 28 09:20:48 <API>	that although Canonical has assigned Luke to work on it
Oct 28 09:20:57 <API>	he still requires to check the code
Oct 28 09:21:27 <API>	and that the current accessibility support is almost zero
Oct 28 09:21:53 <API>	in the same way, they plan to move from mutter to 
Oct 28 09:22:00 *	bnitz (~bnitz@79.97.181.9) has joined #a11y
Oct 28 09:22:09 <API>	compiz
Oct 28 09:22:28 <API>	unity developers say that this is not exactly start from scratch
Oct 28 09:22:42 <API>	as they split the view from the logic
Oct 28 09:22:46 <API>	but IMHO
Oct 28 09:22:57 <API>	it will still require a lot of work
Oct 28 09:23:01 <API>	hmmm
Oct 28 09:23:06 <API>	another good question is
Oct 28 09:23:15 <API>	as unity will have different views
Oct 28 09:23:20 <API>	the current one is mutter
Oct 28 09:23:43 <API>	they plan to maintain several "view path"? or they will deprecate mutter?
Oct 28 09:23:53 <API>	well, we could ask TheMuso in following meeting
Oct 28 09:23:59 <joanie>	sounds good
Oct 28 09:24:01 <API>	joanie, anything else?
Oct 28 09:24:04 <joanie>	Yeah
Oct 28 09:24:55 <joanie>	Penelope -- I just blanked out on her IRC nick -- has volunteered to be our liaison  between the two communities. And is willing to report during the weeks she can attend our meeting.
Oct 28 09:24:58 <joanie>	i.e.
Oct 28 09:25:05 <joanie>	We're not putting this on our plate
Oct 28 09:25:09 <joanie>	since we have no room for it
Oct 28 09:25:19 <joanie>	But Penelope is coming to the rescue
Oct 28 09:25:36 <joanie>	between her and TheMuso, hopefully this will not hurt our users too much
Oct 28 09:25:45 <joanie>	and we can keep focused on gnome-shell and other gnome 3 issues
Oct 28 09:25:52 <joanie>	I will add
Oct 28 09:25:59 <joanie>	that Orca users are starting to ask questions
Oct 28 09:26:18 <API>	and some people on ubuntu accessibility
Oct 28 09:26:22 <joanie>	I'm hoping TheMuso or Penelope can start fielding those as I don't have answers
Oct 28 09:27:03 *	joanie is done
Oct 28 09:27:25 <API>	joanie, taking into account this comment
Oct 28 09:27:29 <API>	<joanie> and we can keep focused on gnome-shell and other gnome 3 issues
Oct 28 09:27:37 <API>	I have a crazy idea to add this issue
Oct 28 09:27:37 <API>	to
Oct 28 09:27:42 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#Other_End_User_Touch_Points
Oct 28 09:27:52 <API>	after all, we already have there evince
Oct 28 09:28:00 <joanie>	Evince is a gnome module
Oct 28 09:28:07 <API>	and evince accessibility is  not exactly a gnome 3 problem
Oct 28 09:28:08 <joanie>	What I would suggest we do
Oct 28 09:28:20 <joanie>	Is create a new page
Oct 28 09:28:24 <API>	is a gnome2-gnome3
Oct 28 09:28:25 <joanie>	for parallel issues
Oct 28 09:28:31 <joanie>	fair enough (2 v 3)
Oct 28 09:28:36 <API>	ah ok
Oct 28 09:28:39 <joanie>	maybe move evince there too
Oct 28 09:28:42 <joanie>	I stand corrected
Oct 28 09:28:46 <joanie>	regardless....
Oct 28 09:28:48 <joanie>	Let's make a new page
Oct 28 09:28:57 <joanie>	and link to it prominently (near the top) of the gnome 3 page
Oct 28 09:28:58 *	msanchez (~msanchez@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y
Oct 28 09:29:04 <joanie>	I am not saying this are non-issues
Oct 28 09:29:15 <joanie>	but I really want to keep the gnome 3 page focused on gnome 3
Oct 28 09:29:26 <joanie>	so that we can use it to point to the Board and other community members
Oct 28 09:29:28 <API>	ok, makes sense
Oct 28 09:29:33 <joanie>	when they ask "how's it going?"
Oct 28 09:29:39 <joanie>	because they have -- and they will -- ask
Oct 28 09:29:58 <joanie>	while we're on the subject
Oct 28 09:30:19 <joanie>	I might be tempted to move the items that are not a problem to the bottom of the page
Oct 28 09:30:27 <joanie>	i.e. the sort order should not be alphabetical
Oct 28 09:30:35 <joanie>	it should be by what is critical and not done
Oct 28 09:30:36 <joanie>	imho
Oct 28 09:31:35 <API>	well, right now we don't have a alphabetical order
Oct 28 09:32:06 <joanie>	heh
Oct 28 09:32:15 <joanie>	okay, then.... having some order would be good
Oct 28 09:32:17 <joanie>	:-)
Oct 28 09:32:25 <joanie>	I vote for it by critical/statuc
Oct 28 09:32:27 <joanie>	status even
Oct 28 09:32:59 <API>	ok,
Oct 28 09:33:00 <joanie>	so action items:
Oct 28 09:33:07 <joanie>	I'll resort if you make a new page
Oct 28 09:34:07 <aleiva>	to vote it?
Oct 28 09:34:11 <joanie>	(that was a question. Question marks are officially optional)
Oct 28 09:34:15 <joanie>	aleiva: morning :-)
Oct 28 09:34:20 <joanie>	to vote it??
Oct 28 09:34:45 <API>	to vote what?
Oct 28 09:34:49 <aleiva>	iÂsorry, a new nopage foir the current items?
Oct 28 09:35:02 <joanie>	aleiva: 
Oct 28 09:35:03 <aleiva>	wow, this is not my keyboard
Oct 28 09:35:04 <joanie>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3
Oct 28 09:35:09 <joanie>	two things
Oct 28 09:35:23 <joanie>	1. That should be just for GNOME 3 (unity, and gnome 2 issues don't belong)
Oct 28 09:35:32 <joanie>	for that we should have a different (new) page on the wiki
Oct 28 09:35:55 <joanie>	2. The items remaining on the gnome 3 page should be resorted so that the red (high risk) items are at the top
Oct 28 09:35:59 <joanie>	the medium risks next
Oct 28 09:36:06 <joanie>	and low risk/completed items at the bottom
Oct 28 09:36:09 <aleiva>	ah ok
Oct 28 09:36:19 <API>	joanie, the only problem with that is the current
Oct 28 09:36:22 <API>	classification
Oct 28 09:36:23 <joanie>	so I'm proposing API make the new page and I resort (since he and I are both busy)
Oct 28 09:36:29 <API>	between accessibility stack
Oct 28 09:36:32 <joanie>	API will get nuked
Oct 28 09:36:33 <joanie>	OR
Oct 28 09:36:38 <joanie>	will persist under the levels
Oct 28 09:36:40 <API>	and ui dedicated to accessibility support
Oct 28 09:36:40 <aleiva>	but to mark the risk we need to do a brainstorming or voting session or ask to the maintainer
Oct 28 09:36:46 <joanie>	High Risk -> Stack, UI, etc
Oct 28 09:36:55 <joanie>	aleiva: look at the page
Oct 28 09:37:02 <API>	aleiva, we already have this fancy red, yellow green thing
Oct 28 09:37:14 <API>	so, at least read things should be on the top
Oct 28 09:37:21 <aleiva>	make sense
Oct 28 09:37:33 <bnitz>	gnome3 issues on one page general/future proofing issues on another
Oct 28 09:37:43 <bnitz>	I agree, I like the ordering by risk as well.
Oct 28 09:37:53 <joanie>	I think we are all in agreement
Oct 28 09:37:58 <aleiva>	yup
Oct 28 09:37:59 <joanie>	1. Order it by risk
Oct 28 09:38:05 <aleiva>	thanks for the explanation guys
Oct 28 09:38:09 <joanie>	2. Under each risk, maintain the classifications
Oct 28 09:38:09 <bnitz>	I'm even thinking accerciser should be medium risk so other things don't have to get any redder.
Oct 28 09:38:29 <joanie>	bnitz: Each module maintainer is the primary person to update risk
Oct 28 09:38:33 <joanie>	feel free to edit the page
Oct 28 09:38:33 <bnitz>	ok
Oct 28 09:39:21 <joanie>	API to wrap this topic up.... You okay with the proposed action items?
Oct 28 09:39:31 <joanie>	(splitting the 2 tasks up between us)
Oct 28 09:40:03 <API>	joanie, yep
Oct 28 09:41:23 <API>	so, this improvised agenda item
Oct 28 09:41:29 <API>	"where to put things"
Oct 28 09:41:32 <API>	is finished
Oct 28 09:41:33 <API>	right?
Oct 28 09:41:39 *	joanie nods
Oct 28 09:41:47 <aleiva>	moving on
Oct 28 09:42:08 <API>	ok, as it started with the unity thing
Oct 28 09:42:13 <API>	anything else about unity?
Oct 28 09:43:05 <aleiva>	not from my side
Oct 28 09:43:09 <API>	joanie, ?
Oct 28 09:43:17 <joanie>	No sir. I'm set.
Oct 28 09:43:36 <API>	ok, lets move to point 2.
Oct 28 09:43:53 <API>	Bastien mail about the new way to load gtk modules
Oct 28 09:44:22 <API>	this include at-spi changes
Oct 28 09:44:29 <API>	but mgorse is not here
Oct 28 09:44:42 <API>	the good thing is that after ask Bastien
Oct 28 09:44:50 <API>	the current weird hacks
Oct 28 09:44:54 <API>	used on firefox
Oct 28 09:45:02 <API>	and hypothetically on the future on gnome-shell
Oct 28 09:45:10 <API>	NO_GAIL and NO_AT_BRIDGE
Oct 28 09:45:15 <API>	should still works
Oct 28 09:45:24 <API>	but the summary of this point
Oct 28 09:45:39 <API>	is that at-spi and at-spi2 require this little changes
Oct 28 09:45:47 <API>	I also needed to ask mgorse
Oct 28 09:45:58 <API>	if at-spi2 bugs should be reported to freedesktop
Oct 28 09:46:00 <API>	bugzilla
Oct 28 09:46:12 <API>	as Bastien uploaded the patch to gnome bugzilla
Oct 28 09:46:32 <API>	nothing else
Oct 28 09:46:43 <joanie>	Thanks for staying on top of that API!
Oct 28 09:46:47 <API>	(as we need mgorse)
Oct 28 09:46:55 <API>	comments, questions, doubts?
Oct 28 09:47:33 <bnitz>	API One question, is this change required for all components, including apps like orca and accerciser?
Oct 28 09:47:49 <API>	bnitz, no
Oct 28 09:47:58 <API>	only on at-spi
Oct 28 09:48:01 <API>	basically
Oct 28 09:48:05 <API>	this changes means
Oct 28 09:48:14 <API>	add a file to a <directory>
Oct 28 09:48:24 <API>	so all the modules on this directory will be loaded
Oct 28 09:48:34 <API>	and also adds a way to 
Oct 28 09:48:36 <bnitz>	good thanks.
Oct 28 09:48:38 <API>	made this
Oct 28 09:48:42 <API>	configurable
Oct 28 09:48:49 <API>	(ie accesibility on/off)
Oct 28 09:49:06 <API>	and I said at-spi as they made the change there
Oct 28 09:49:17 <API>	probably because it install the bridge
Oct 28 09:49:31 <API>	but the desktop file
Oct 28 09:49:33 <API>	afaik
Oct 28 09:49:41 <API>	could be installed by other app
Oct 28 09:49:43 <API>	anyway
Oct 28 09:49:45 <API>	lets move on
Oct 28 09:49:49 <API>	10 minutes
Oct 28 09:49:52 <aleiva>	yeah
Oct 28 09:50:14 <aleiva>	gnome 3?
Oct 28 09:50:34 <aleiva>	we basically talked about with the wiki page move, isnt it?
Oct 28 09:50:42 <API>	yep
Oct 28 09:50:55 <aleiva>	roadmap?
Oct 28 09:51:21 <API>	well, yes, in theory the idea
Oct 28 09:51:23 <aleiva>	whats the definitive plan?
Oct 28 09:51:33 <API>	would be that joanie API and you
Oct 28 09:51:49 <API>	would start it in the background and when we have something
Oct 28 09:51:52 <API>	similar to a draft
Oct 28 09:52:00 <API>	uploaded it to any wiki page
Oct 28 09:52:06 <API>	in order to get more feedback
Oct 28 09:52:14 <aleiva>	nice
Oct 28 09:52:20 <joanie>	Guess we need to get on that. :-)
Oct 28 09:52:47 <API>	yes I know
Oct 28 09:53:18 <joanie>	(It's not a complaint. I don't have time to sleep atm. But soon I will have time. Let's work on this earlyish next week)
Oct 28 09:53:42 <aleiva>	I think tat after Boston Summit we'll have more ideas to address
Oct 28 09:53:44 <aleiva>	btw
Oct 28 09:53:54 <aleiva>	I want to add boston summit to the next meeting
Oct 28 09:53:55 <joanie>	aleiva: I'd bet that
Oct 28 09:54:06 <joanie>	aleiva: Most a11y folks are not coming
Oct 28 09:54:11 <aleiva>	exactly
Oct 28 09:54:16 <joanie>	BUT, you are welcome to edit the agenda
Oct 28 09:54:18 <aleiva>	we can bring ideas from the froup
Oct 28 09:54:21 <joanie>	all team members are
Oct 28 09:54:24 <joanie>	ah, gotcha
Oct 28 09:54:28 <API>	aleiva, that well be awesome, a new contributor to the agenda :P
Oct 28 09:54:28 <aleiva>	joanie: yeah, I'm only informing
Oct 28 09:54:38 *	joanie grins at API
Oct 28 09:55:21 <API>	could you refresh my mind with Boston Summit dates?
Oct 28 09:55:51 <joanie>	6-8 Nov
Oct 28 09:56:00 <aleiva>	6,7,8 nov
Oct 28 09:56:17 <API>	ok, thanks
Oct 28 09:56:21 <aleiva>	next meeting is day 4th
Oct 28 09:56:27 <aleiva>	then is a perfect date
Oct 28 09:56:39 <aleiva>	to talk about our presence in boston summit
Oct 28 09:57:03 <aleiva>	ok, guys, any item left?
Oct 28 09:57:39 <API>	well, not time to review any item
Oct 28 09:57:39 <API>	so
Oct 28 09:57:42 <API>	lets start
Oct 28 09:57:47 <API>	"miscellaneous time"
Oct 28 09:57:56 <API>	anyone in the meeting
Oct 28 09:58:00 <API>	the awake ones
Oct 28 09:58:10 <API>	has suddenly realized anything to comment?
Oct 28 09:58:27 <API>	bnitz, btw, on the previous meeting we talked about your feedback
Oct 28 09:58:35 <API>	and was suggested a kind of wiki page
Oct 28 09:58:40 <API>	similar to caribou one
Oct 28 09:58:45 <API>	anything new about it?
Oct 28 09:59:25 *	Bryen has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
Oct 28 09:59:59 <bnitz>	API:Nothing new, sorry.
Oct 28 10:00:04 <API>	ko
Oct 28 10:00:05 <API>	ups
Oct 28 10:00:05 <API>	ok
Oct 28 10:00:09 <bnitz>	API:I've asked for a home on the gnome testing page.  
Oct 28 10:00:21 <bnitz>	Haven't heard back yet. 
Oct 28 10:00:53 <API>	ok
Oct 28 10:00:59 <API>	people
Oct 28 10:01:07 <API>	a last comment on this miscellaneous time?
Oct 28 10:02:08 <aleiva>	not from my side, thanks guys for your time and effort ;-)
Oct 28 10:02:44 <joanie>	Thanks for yours aleiva :-)
Oct 28 10:03:38 <API>	ok, meeting finished