Oct 21 15:42:34 hey, is there any way to register concerns about some of the plans for various accessibility programs in Gnome 3.0? Oct 21 15:47:06 Pendulum_: I'd suggest writing to gnome-accessibility-list or gnome-accessibility-devel, unless it's something that should be filed as a bug Oct 21 15:47:21 Oh, right--we have a meeting in a little over an hour, too Oct 21 15:48:10 yeah, I can't tell whether my concern is a bug or if it's something already being worked on (it's that removing direct imput from dasher may actually mean I can no longer use Linux regularly and especially heavily reduce my ability to contribute) Oct 21 15:49:50 and something from March says that it'll likely just be compiled without AT-SPI (which would remove that capability), but other people are telling me that they've been told that it's being worked on to port it to dbus Oct 21 15:49:58 * Pendulum_ is now known as Pendulum Oct 21 15:50:45 Hmm. Not sure; you probably want to talk to Patrick Welch, but it doesn't look like he's in this channel right now Oct 21 15:51:06 yeah. I'll send him an e-mail :) Oct 21 15:51:55 I think he was trying to port it to use dbus directly; he was asking me about it in Spain, anyway Oct 21 15:52:00 Pendulum: Okay; cool Oct 21 16:03:04 * sebsauer has quit (Remote closed the connection) Oct 21 16:10:46 Pendulum, although we can talk about it later Oct 21 16:10:55 Dasher is already in the "gnome3 issues list" Oct 21 16:10:57 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#Dasher Oct 21 16:11:29 although we need a update about his status here Oct 21 16:11:31 AFAIK Oct 21 16:11:38 things are still like in the description Oct 21 16:11:46 Dasher can be compiled without at-spi support Oct 21 16:11:47 API: that's why I was asking. because what was there concerned me. Oct 21 16:12:00 but in this case it would lose some features Oct 21 16:12:17 API: right, but that removes the direct-input capabilities. which for me makes it unusable for most of the things I do on a day-to-day basis (like IRC) Oct 21 16:12:55 :( Oct 21 16:13:08 ok, if you finally send that mail to Patrick Oct 21 16:13:13 Pendulum, and get any update Oct 21 16:13:17 tbh, I don't know anyone who uses dasher without direct input Oct 21 16:13:18 yeah, I will Oct 21 16:13:21 could you update that section on the wiki? Oct 21 16:13:27 I'll do my best :) Oct 21 16:13:29 well, the description says Oct 21 16:13:40 "Without this support, WillieWalker believes Dasher may still function standalone and can be used to type text by cutting/pasting between the Dasher GUI and another text area, which is how many people use Dasher today in GNOME" Oct 21 16:13:42 ok, thankis Oct 21 16:13:44 thanks Oct 21 16:13:49 I know what the description says, but I have no idea who their "many people" are Oct 21 16:14:12 Chances are the description isn't accurate then Oct 21 16:14:14 (because it really isn't any of the people I know who use dasher often/for everything) Oct 21 16:15:31 Pendulum, ok, you can ask Patrick about that statement Oct 21 16:15:36 if the text is wrong Oct 21 16:15:39 please, correct it Oct 21 16:17:11 * jsilva (~jsilva@205.211.169.2) has joined #a11y Oct 21 16:31:56 * sshaw (~decriptor@137.65.133.12) has joined #a11y Oct 21 16:35:00 API: I've e-mailed Patrick and I'll certainly update things as I get more information :) Oct 21 16:35:14 Pendulum, ok, thanks Oct 21 16:36:46 personally I'll be happy with "it won't get done soon, but it's in the 1 year plan to port to dbus" ;-) Oct 21 16:39:21 * joanie (~jd@c-98-217-239-60.hsd1.nh.comcast.net) has joined #a11y Oct 21 16:56:51 * dexem (~dani@14.Red-88-26-177.staticIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #a11y Oct 21 16:57:06 Pendulum, sorry "1 year plan to port to dbus" ? Oct 21 16:59:07 API: that's what needs to happen to keep the functionality I need in dasher Oct 21 16:59:48 well, at it is a11y meeting time Oct 21 16:59:57 I think that it is worth to start with this ;) Oct 21 17:00:17 Pendulum, where did you read this "1 year plan"? Oct 21 17:00:35 I mean, what plan? plan deployed by? Oct 21 17:00:47 for the laters, we were talking about Dasher, and GNOME 3 Oct 21 17:01:01 * peppi_el_payaso waves Oct 21 17:01:25 API if the meeting is officially beginning.... Can we back up a tad: What exactly are we talking about? Oct 21 17:01:32 * heidi (~chatzilla@virt61.vnet.wnec.edu) has joined #A11y Oct 21 17:01:59 (Or is this -- (10:57:07 AM) API: Pendulum, sorry "1 year plan to port to dbus" ? -- all you know at this point as well?) Oct 21 17:02:52 API: I meant if that's their goal. no official plan :) Oct 21 17:02:58 API: sorry, language thing, I think :) Oct 21 17:03:12 joanie: we were ending that conversation, yes :) Oct 21 17:03:13 Pendulum, ah, you already talked with Patrick? Oct 21 17:03:34 API: no. I've sent the e-mail. that's just what I'm hoping for as a response ;-) Oct 21 17:04:17 ah ok, you were talking hypothetically ;) Oct 21 17:04:23 yes Oct 21 17:04:54 for the people that missed the conversation Oct 21 17:05:01 Pendulum was worried about Dasher Oct 21 17:05:08 and in fact, he thinks Oct 21 17:05:09 sorry Oct 21 17:05:10 she Oct 21 17:05:15 thinks that this statement Oct 21 17:05:27 "Without this support, WillieWalker believes Dasher may still function standalone and can be used to type text by cutting/pasting between the Dasher GUI and another text area, which is how many people use Dasher today in GNOME" Oct 21 17:05:33 is somewhat wrong Oct 21 17:05:58 as several dasher users requires at-spi features Oct 21 17:06:09 she will contact patrik about it Oct 21 17:06:15 Pendulum, Im missing something? Oct 21 17:06:19 aha Oct 21 17:06:41 API: nope :) Oct 21 17:06:42 Thanks for the recap API. That makes sense (the concern). Oct 21 17:07:13 joanie: for me it's personal so I'm hoping I can help make sure the functionality is around in the future ;-( Oct 21 17:07:17 *;-) Oct 21 17:07:20 Hi. Sorry I'm late. Oct 21 17:07:25 well, so we can continue with the GNOME 3.0 update Oct 21 17:07:29 * API bnitz np Oct 21 17:07:43 first, from the AEGIS meeting about this list Oct 21 17:08:01 there are several "need to contact key contacts to update the module state" Oct 21 17:08:28 but, if anyone present have done something new in this module, please update the page Oct 21 17:08:35 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3 Oct 21 17:12:11 * dpellicer has quit (Remote closed the connection) Oct 21 17:12:15 * tomeu (~tomeu@148.128.broadband13.iol.cz) has joined #a11y Oct 21 17:12:30 * sshaw has quit (Remote closed the connection) Oct 21 17:13:00 well, I gave some time so anyone have any question related to any module ;) Oct 21 17:13:02 anyone Oct 21 17:13:03 ? Oct 21 17:13:19 question or if anyone wants to update the status of his module Oct 21 17:13:25 joanie, aleiva mgorse ? Oct 21 17:13:44 API: I will go back and look about updating our module statuses Oct 21 17:14:00 Although I think we did that at AEGIS Oct 21 17:14:10 * sshaw (~decriptor@137.65.133.12) has joined #a11y Oct 21 17:14:43 two weeks since AEGIS ;) Oct 21 17:15:14 * peppi_el_payaso just updated my section Oct 21 17:15:30 Ah, yes, but I have only just now returned. And our little team has been working on Profiles and other CFR related things Oct 21 17:15:38 * joanie wonders who peppi_el_payaso is Oct 21 17:15:51 rough translation: "joey the clown". Oct 21 17:15:52 ah Oct 21 17:16:05 (I just looked at the edited line on the wiki) Oct 21 17:16:56 ok, so, mgorse any at-spi update? Oct 21 17:16:58 I need to update at-spi2. I'll do that in a few minutes. Oct 21 17:16:58 * msanchez (~msanchez@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y Oct 21 17:17:05 mgorse, ok thanks Oct 21 17:17:11 * peppi_el_payaso msanchez: nice device. Oct 21 17:17:20 peppi_el_payaso? Oct 21 17:17:31 peppi_el_payaso, something new? Oct 21 17:17:40 * msanchez wonders how was peppi_el_payaso's pizza: estrellada Oct 21 17:17:50 * peppi_el_payaso delicious. Oct 21 17:18:15 API: see above -- just added note about "Common Mag Framework" wiki page that I created last week. Oct 21 17:18:40 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#GNOME_Shell_Magnification Oct 21 17:19:14 * API checking Oct 21 17:19:33 hmm Oct 21 17:19:36 the link is broken... Oct 21 17:19:49 * peppi_el_payaso fixing... Oct 21 17:19:51 I mean, this http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3/Accessibility/MagnificationFramework/ Oct 21 17:20:14 in the meantime, here is the actual link: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/MagnificationFramework Oct 21 17:20:53 ok Oct 21 17:21:04 btw, just a quick note here Oct 21 17:21:25 peppi_el_payaso, you followed the last events of this "integrate orca inside gnome-shell thing"? Oct 21 17:21:51 API is there new stuff? :-/ Oct 21 17:21:53 API: I heard about it at the hackfest, but not the details. Oct 21 17:21:59 Or just that we're going to meet? Oct 21 17:22:00 joanie, you know all Oct 21 17:22:08 peppi_el_payaso: I'll send you the latest Oct 21 17:22:21 peppi_el_payaso, in summary that they still want orca Oct 21 17:22:35 but being transparent to the user as a feature Oct 21 17:22:44 and ui preferences and so on managed on gshell Oct 21 17:22:52 * peppi_el_payaso thanks joanie Oct 21 17:22:58 probably this would affect your common thing Oct 21 17:23:17 API, but in summary, they want orca "built-into" gnome-shell? Or just the preferences bit. Oct 21 17:23:18 ok, and about gnome shell Oct 21 17:23:19 ? Oct 21 17:23:26 no Oct 21 17:23:34 they don't want orca code moved to gnome shell Oct 21 17:23:45 at least not the screen reader part Oct 21 17:23:49 that's good. Oct 21 17:23:55 but "better integration" and this includes the ui Oct 21 17:24:07 anyway, lets move, as joanie will sent you the details Oct 21 17:24:21 API: okay, thanks. Oct 21 17:24:23 and probably she will talk with Jon mccan on boston Oct 21 17:24:29 my update about gnome-shell Oct 21 17:24:43 is that dan winship uploaded new patches for the keyboard navigation Oct 21 17:24:49 and owen taylor is reviewing it Oct 21 17:24:55 I have started to check them again Oct 21 17:25:02 as there was a lot of changes Oct 21 17:25:05 Oct 21 17:25:17 ok, any other issue about gnome3 modules? Oct 21 17:27:29 well, nobody saying anything, so I will move Oct 21 17:27:41 checking the agenda we have some reminders Oct 21 17:28:10 ie: heidi is waiting caribou feedback Oct 21 17:28:19 :-) Oct 21 17:28:40 one of the "easy questions" would be why GOK was deprecated Oct 21 17:28:51 it was explained on the gnome 3 list, but we removed it ;) Oct 21 17:28:58 I will recover it Oct 21 17:29:16 Ah, yes, that would be helpful. Oct 21 17:29:25 We are also compiling more questions as we are heading into design. Oct 21 17:29:52 heidi, btw Oct 21 17:29:53 Perhaps the most helpful thing right now would be to have some direction as to the top needs for keyboards. Oct 21 17:29:56 API as mentioned at AEGIS, I think there is a place for the issues like GOK deprecation, but let's start a new place for it Oct 21 17:30:15 joanie, ok, it is a good idea, Oct 21 17:30:27 better than just remove items for the list forever Oct 21 17:30:37 I think we should be able to show the outside world (rest of GNOME community) where we are at any given time w.r.t. GNOME 3. And that page is ideal for that Oct 21 17:30:53 but it should remain streamlined and only contain things we need the world to know Oct 21 17:30:55 imho Oct 21 17:31:03 heidi, about the tops needs for keyboards, I guess that this is more a question for experienced users Oct 21 17:31:29 So the list? Do we have an idea of how many users we have? Oct 21 17:31:36 not sure if the gnome-accessibility list is the best place Oct 21 17:31:44 I don't, joanie ? Oct 21 17:31:49 Any direction would be most appreciated. Oct 21 17:32:24 heidi: API: As we look to writing our roadmap, I think we should add a study of some sort (and perhaps a survey initially) to figure these sorts of issues out Oct 21 17:32:37 Ah, thanks this would be helpful. Oct 21 17:32:45 merely talking about it amongst ourselves, when we're not part of that community, is proving unsuccessful Oct 21 17:32:58 :-) Oct 21 17:33:02 blindness is easier because we have a huge, active Orca community and it's my DayJob field Oct 21 17:33:22 failing our having that for users who need an OSK.... We need to do some more, proper, official legwork Oct 21 17:34:06 Yes, I'd be happy to help with that, but I don't know where to start. Oct 21 17:34:27 I'm happy to help with legwork on that since I do use an onscreen keyboard-type thing for at least 1/2 the time :) Oct 21 17:34:37 heidi: We'll get it on our official to-do list as a roadmap item. And as we start planning, we'll definitely include you :-) Oct 21 17:34:47 Pendulum: Awesome thanks! Oct 21 17:34:47 Thanks. Oct 21 17:35:16 Yes! Thanks Pendulum. Oct 21 17:36:17 heidi, btw, just the last shoot about caribou Oct 21 17:36:28 and related with the gnome shell integration Oct 21 17:36:41 gnome shell developers have in mid this: Oct 21 17:36:44 http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/Whiteboards/ScreenKeyboard Oct 21 17:36:55 but trying to use current solutions as base Oct 21 17:37:21 * peppi_el_payaso ! Oct 21 17:37:22 perhaps another thing to investigate if how feasible could be get the common parts from caribou Oct 21 17:37:31 in order to be used on both Oct 21 17:37:40 just a quick thought anyway Oct 21 17:37:59 API, Thanks! This is really helpful. Oct 21 17:38:23 * danigm_out is now known as danigm Oct 21 17:38:26 And students were just starting to look at how Caribou integrates with GNOME so this is good. Oct 21 17:38:36 heidi, anyway, doesn't spent too much time Oct 21 17:38:46 I mean, don't see that as the "main issue to solve" Oct 21 17:39:34 soooo ... lets move on Oct 21 17:39:36 Heidi. In the shortterm... I don't know if it would be worth it but Oct 21 17:39:37 http://ma.easterseals.com/site/PageServer?pagename=MADR_DLRC Oct 21 17:39:42 the other reminder is Oct 21 17:39:44 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q3 Oct 21 17:39:48 ups, overlapping Oct 21 17:39:52 my bad Oct 21 17:39:54 sorry API Oct 21 17:40:13 Thanks joanie! Oct 21 17:40:17 joanie, np Oct 21 17:40:33 the last reminder is "if you have done something in Q3" please update this wiki Oct 21 17:40:37 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/QuarterlyReports/2010/Q3 Oct 21 17:40:48 so Bryen can create the summary for the global quarterly report Oct 21 17:41:47 * API checking agenda Oct 21 17:41:54 Thoughts on "Do we need more hackfests?" Oct 21 17:42:08 in my opinion we should start this discussion on the mailing list Oct 21 17:42:41 but, if anyone wants to provide any comment about it... Oct 21 17:42:45 API: Are you going to do that then? :-) Oct 21 17:43:03 My comment in the meantime is that a hackfest for hackfest's sake is silly Oct 21 17:43:13 that they should be targetted for specific needs Oct 21 17:43:23 And that we need to figure out a way to better control things Oct 21 17:43:23 BTW, I have some 8 or so students coming to Boston in November Oct 21 17:43:27 * peppi_el_payaso seconds joanie Oct 21 17:43:44 I'm interested in doing a post mortem on AEGIS Oct 21 17:44:37 ?¿ Oct 21 17:44:44 joanie, a post mortem on AEGIS? Oct 21 17:45:09 API yeah :-) Oct 21 17:45:19 i.e. there were a number of things that "didn't go as expected" Oct 21 17:45:20 Has anyone seen a particularly good example of how hackfests should work? Maybe we can structure the next around that. Oct 21 17:45:28 some were beyond our control Oct 21 17:45:36 joanie: a post mortem on, specifcially, the aegis hackfest? Oct 21 17:45:38 but we didn't have a plan for handling such occurrences Oct 21 17:45:46 other things might have been within our control Oct 21 17:46:03 but the question of how to control them without hurting feelings and being overbearing remains to be answered Oct 21 17:46:24 I think this might be worth creating an ad hoc subcommittee for :-) Oct 21 17:46:29 peppi_el_payaso: yup Oct 21 17:47:14 an (obvious) suggestion: make sure the internet works the week before the hackfest begins Oct 21 17:47:26 joanie, well, joanie, things like, "wifi is not working" are beyond our possibilities ;) Oct 21 17:47:53 has anyone been to a conference where Nhackers > 255 and wifi does work? Oct 21 17:47:54 API yup, that was the first category Oct 21 17:48:10 * API peppi_el_payaso can read my mind Oct 21 17:48:29 bnitz, but in our case we were about 15 hackers ... Oct 21 17:48:31 bnitz: not me, wifi problems in FOSDEM and GUADEC are a familiar issue afaik :-) Oct 21 17:48:47 API, yeah 15 should've been OK. Oct 21 17:48:53 API: i don't know about that. someone could be given the task of laising (sp?) with the tech person responsible for network prior to the meeting Oct 21 17:49:06 ok, but this is not the point Oct 21 17:49:12 so lets add as conclusion Oct 21 17:49:23 "do a AEGIS post mortem" Oct 21 17:49:31 as usual the question is Oct 21 17:49:35 "who will do that?" Oct 21 17:49:43 API I'll take the lead Oct 21 17:50:03 and I'll get in touch with you to follow up/move forward Oct 21 17:50:23 ok Oct 21 17:51:04 well, we are are out of "official items on the agenda" Oct 21 17:51:09 so lets enter in "misc" Oct 21 17:51:15 today we received a mail about Oct 21 17:51:24 " Google Code-In for GNOME: We Need Tasks!" Oct 21 17:51:37 it seems to be a google summer of code spin off Oct 21 17:51:39 smaller Oct 21 17:51:46 for high school students Oct 21 17:52:09 but I guess, that this is more a Bryen task Oct 21 17:52:12 not sure Oct 21 17:52:21 it seems similar to outreach and so on Oct 21 17:52:52 API yeah, I think you're right Oct 21 17:52:53 opinions? thoughts? Oct 21 17:53:07 I'm sure Bryen would want to handle that as outreach Oct 21 17:53:08 * peppi_el_payaso reading that email... Oct 21 17:54:33 ok Oct 21 17:54:49 so, we are in misc time, so feel free to add something to the meeting ;) Oct 21 17:55:41 for those who don't know next week is the Ubuntu Developer Summit and there will be several sessions related to accessibility Oct 21 17:55:53 where is it? Oct 21 17:56:06 peppi_el_payaso: the summit is in Orlando, however you can also remote participate Oct 21 17:56:23 is there an url (for more info)? Oct 21 17:56:43 http://uds.ubuntu.com/participate/remote/ has remote participation information Oct 21 17:56:49 thanks. Oct 21 17:56:54 it's a combination of audio streaming & IRC Oct 21 17:57:15 schedule of what's happening is at http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-n/ Oct 21 17:57:34 we've got one general accessibility session, one about accessibility in unity, and one talking about on screen keyboards Oct 21 17:57:38 (so far) Oct 21 17:58:01 If people are interested I can e-mail all this (along with the current times/rooms for the accessibility-related sessions) to the list? Oct 21 17:58:32 I'm still looking for suggestions on test reporting. Would it make sense to log severity as well as what kind of AT a failure impacts (e.g. visual, keyboard navigation...) Oct 21 17:59:14 bnitz, on ubuntu summit? Oct 21 17:59:31 No sorry, under misc. Oct 21 18:00:05 Also under misc, if anyone would like to nominate bugs which indicate a kind of common a11y breakage which we'd like to avoid, point me to them. Thanks. Oct 21 18:00:10 bnitz, ok sorry, I were reading Pendulum comments and suddenly read your comment :P Oct 21 18:01:42 bnitz, anyway, about your "testing feedback" I remember that you suggested that on the hackfest Oct 21 18:01:44 but ... Oct 21 18:01:49 have you sent any mail? Oct 21 18:01:56 or provide a wiki page or something? Oct 21 18:02:08 remember that only part of the community were there Oct 21 18:02:20 API:No, put that on my action list. Oct 21 18:02:22 and probable people like Ara or nagappan could collaborate Oct 21 18:02:42 API:Yes I've been working with them as well as Eitan. Oct 21 18:03:46 btw thanks to Eitan and eveyone else who walked me through my first drop of an accerciser tarball, the four horsemen of the apocalypse haven't yet arrived. Oct 21 18:04:03 bnitz, i didn't see an announce, it's out? Oct 21 18:04:07 API:Is there a community wiki I should use? Oct 21 18:04:39 bnitz, the announcement of releases are done just by sending a mail Oct 21 18:04:44 to the proper lists Oct 21 18:04:53 but if you are talking about the testing thing Oct 21 18:05:00 create one on live.gnome.org Oct 21 18:05:14 not sure if it fits under accessibility umbrella Oct 21 18:05:22 eeejay:I sent the announcement and someone else forwarded it to me so it did go out. Oct 21 18:05:29 * danigm is now known as danigm_out Oct 21 18:05:36 API yes, maybe it belongs under testing. Oct 21 18:06:20 bnitz, right now there are this one: Oct 21 18:06:22 http://live.gnome.org/DesktopTesting Oct 21 18:06:54 although this is for Mago Oct 21 18:07:16 but taking intou account their purpose Oct 21 18:07:19 I'm definitely planning on using the mago framework so I'll see if it can go somewhere there thanks. Oct 21 18:07:22 "The Desktop Testing team aims to automate desktop testing through the AT-SPI layer." Oct 21 18:07:29 it is somewhat overlapping your objetives Oct 21 18:07:38 you should talk with Ara about it Oct 21 18:07:53 API:I will. Oct 21 18:08:26 bnitz, ok, thanks Oct 21 18:09:22 ok, 10 minutes (almost) over time Oct 21 18:09:27 lets close the meeting Oct 21 18:09:30 meeting over