1 Sep 02 08:33:20 *	Now talking on #a11y
   2 Sep 02 08:43:05 <Bryen>	T-17... and maaaan am I tired!
   3 Sep 02 08:50:50 *	jrocha (~JRocha@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y
   4 Sep 02 08:57:37 <Bryen>	ok who's awake with 3 minutes to go?
   5 Sep 02 08:57:55 *	joanie raises her hand
   6 Sep 02 08:59:00 *	API Im still sleep, and you all are a dream
   7 Sep 02 08:59:21 <Bryen>	I don't know if I'm comfortable being in API's dreams
   8 Sep 02 08:59:33 <Bryen>	I mean, I consider myself a pretty sexy guy and all, but this is just a bit too much
   9 Sep 02 08:59:35 *	joanie prepares mischief
  10 Sep 02 08:59:57 *	API now it is becoming a nightmare
  11 Sep 02 09:00:10 <joanie>	heh
  12 Sep 02 09:00:17 <aleiva>	o/
  13 Sep 02 09:00:21 <Bryen>	hell I'm awake and its already a nightmare!
  14 Sep 02 09:00:33 <joanie>	\o
  15 Sep 02 09:00:43 <joanie>	(small head this time) :-P
  16 Sep 02 09:00:55 <Bryen>	hola aleiva
  17 Sep 02 09:01:09 <aleiva>	hi
  18 Sep 02 09:01:18 <aleiva>	Bryen: ah! hola Bryen 
  19 Sep 02 09:01:42 *	Bryen has been practicing Portuguese for November, but probably should be practicing Spanish for October
  20 Sep 02 09:01:58 *	tomeu (~tomeu@148.128.broadband13.iol.cz) has joined #a11y
  21 Sep 02 09:02:44 <Bryen>	aleiva,   quick question before they start the meeting.  How does one get to Italica without a car?  And how much time should be spent touring Italica?
  22 Sep 02 09:03:42 <aleiva>	Bryen: I think you can get a bus but if more is interested and I have enough time I can carry you to Italica
  23 Sep 02 09:03:54 <aleiva>	Bryen: time, it depends, but around 2 hours is ok
  24 Sep 02 09:04:11 <Bryen>	Cool
  25 Sep 02 09:04:24 <aleiva>	Bryen: Italica is very near to Sevilla
  26 Sep 02 09:04:51 <aleiva>	s/carry/bring
  27 Sep 02 09:04:54 <Bryen>	aleiva,   My plan is to get to Barcelona on the 24th and then to Sevilla on the 29th  so I have time to enjoy the sights and do some photography
  28 Sep 02 09:04:56 <aleiva>	you're humans not objects :P
  29 Sep 02 09:06:05 <Bryen>	ok API, let's wake up so we can go to sleep sooner.
  30 Sep 02 09:06:36 <Bryen>	whoa... stormy stayed awake!
  31 Sep 02 09:06:41 <Bryen>	(we think)
  32 Sep 02 09:07:04 <API>	Bryen, just replying (really late) eeejay question about the real hour of the meeting
  33 Sep 02 09:07:15 *	juanje (~jojeda@83.175.203.146) has joined #a11y
  34 Sep 02 09:07:23 <API>	subject-body was not sync
  35 Sep 02 09:07:30 <API>	anyway
  36 Sep 02 09:07:32 <API>	lets start
  37 Sep 02 09:07:39 <API>	we have already 
  38 Sep 02 09:07:44 <Bryen>	API,   It's the present hour  :-)
  39 Sep 02 09:07:49 <API>	provide a good margin for
  40 Sep 02 09:08:08 <API>	so, if nobody propose other thing
  41 Sep 02 09:08:14 <API>	lets go with the current proposed agenda
  42 Sep 02 09:08:17 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20100826#Agenda_for_the_next_meeting
  43 Sep 02 09:08:26 <API>	1. Brief AEGIS update 
  44 Sep 02 09:08:34 <API>	just to comment that we have sent
  45 Sep 02 09:08:43 <API>	to the travel committe 
  46 Sep 02 09:09:08 <Bryen>	ok I gotta ask a question about that...
  47 Sep 02 09:09:09 <API>	a budget estimation (hotel+air)
  48 Sep 02 09:09:17 <API>	now waiting for answer
  49 Sep 02 09:09:21 <API>	Bryen, shoot
  50 Sep 02 09:09:50 <Bryen>	Why is it taking this long?   Last I heard they were coming up with final numbers a few weeks ago over a weekend.    And this sllooowww delay is agonizing
  51 Sep 02 09:10:14 <Bryen>	to the point where literally price has gone from $816 this past Monday to $1177 today for roundtrip airfare
  52 Sep 02 09:10:31 <Bryen>	And we're less than 30 days away.  This is seriously down to the wire.
  53 Sep 02 09:10:45 <API>	Bryen, we are doing that as fast as our possibilities and day-responsabilities
  54 Sep 02 09:10:47 <API>	allows
  55 Sep 02 09:10:55 <API>	and it is not just a thing of our side
  56 Sep 02 09:11:09 <API>	some times we need to wait for travel committe information
  57 Sep 02 09:11:28 <API>	I already know that airfares increases with time
  58 Sep 02 09:11:32 <Bryen>	Yes but my point is do the travel committee realize the urgency here?
  59 Sep 02 09:11:32 <API>	and worse
  60 Sep 02 09:11:45 <API>	Ke Lang and Li Yuan probably couldn't come due VISA
  61 Sep 02 09:11:53 <API>	Bryen, I will try to ping them today
  62 Sep 02 09:11:58 <Bryen>	I mean, if this is way over our original request amount, we're probably going to have to eat it.  And then some will not be able to get a visa in time
  63 Sep 02 09:12:00 <API>	no answer since we sent the mail
  64 Sep 02 09:12:49 <Bryen>	ok
  65 Sep 02 09:13:09 <API>	well I have gave my update
  66 Sep 02 09:13:21 <API>	Bryen has made a question
  67 Sep 02 09:13:34 <API>	anyone have any answer/comment from AEGIS or we can just move on?
  68 Sep 02 09:14:04 <Bryen>	aleiva,   Any hotel updates?
  69 Sep 02 09:15:07 <aleiva>	Bryen: well, I'm waiting to definitive answer from committe to make the booking
  70 Sep 02 09:15:28 <Bryen>	aleiva,   Ok but do we have at least a tentative place?
  71 Sep 02 09:15:38 <Bryen>	and price?
  72 Sep 02 09:15:58 <aleiva>	Bryen: the tentative place is the same as the last two meetings, tryp macarena, around 60~80
  73 Sep 02 09:16:46 <Bryen>	ok, thought we were going to look at other options since that place isn't available on the 9th.   But alright, we can figure that on our own.
  74 Sep 02 09:17:17 <joanie>	I think most people will be gone
  75 Sep 02 09:17:19 <aleiva>	Bryen: it's not final that isn't available
  76 Sep 02 09:17:29 <Bryen>	ok
  77 Sep 02 09:17:36 <aleiva>	Bryen: it's not the same 10 persons than one or two
  78 Sep 02 09:17:52 <Bryen>	ok
  79 Sep 02 09:17:53 <aleiva>	Bryen: surely if only one or two want to stay from the 9th will be ok
  80 Sep 02 09:18:14 <joanie>	aleiva: and if not, you'll help us find suitable places, right? :-)
  81 Sep 02 09:18:17 <aleiva>	Bryen: if not we have more options, but as I said, until committe response I'm stalled
  82 Sep 02 09:18:21 <aleiva>	joanie: of course
  83 Sep 02 09:19:30 <Bryen>	ok I guess we can move on
  84 Sep 02 09:19:53 <API>	ok
  85 Sep 02 09:20:08 <API>	3. We still need weekly meetings? 
  86 Sep 02 09:20:18 <API>	some people felt
  87 Sep 02 09:20:21 <Bryen>	What was 2.?
  88 Sep 02 09:20:29 <API>	2. Brief GNOME 3 updates 
  89 Sep 02 09:20:34 <API>	but as I said on the agenda
  90 Sep 02 09:20:38 <API>	are technical details
  91 Sep 02 09:20:42 <API>	we can talk about it later
  92 Sep 02 09:20:45 <Bryen>	ok
  93 Sep 02 09:20:51 <API>	as I was saying
  94 Sep 02 09:20:55 <API>	some people felt
  95 Sep 02 09:21:05 <API>	that current weekly meetings go too much into detail
  96 Sep 02 09:21:09 <Bryen>	I think weekly has become overkill for us
  97 Sep 02 09:21:21 <API>	or too many meetings
  98 Sep 02 09:21:29 <API>	yes, thats it
  99 Sep 02 09:21:46 <API>	so one question is:
 100 Sep 02 09:21:54 <API>	are we ok with weekly meeting?
 101 Sep 02 09:21:56 <API>	too much?
 102 Sep 02 09:22:08 <API>	should we move to a meeting each two weeks?
 103 Sep 02 09:22:20 <API>	to a meeting each time we have a relevant thing to debate?
 104 Sep 02 09:22:33 <Bryen>	My opinion: It is overkill, but... if we do bi-weekly, then that essentially means those in each group meet once a month.
 105 Sep 02 09:23:02 <Bryen>	But if we can get into more pokings, I think we can survive.
 106 Sep 02 09:23:06 *	jrocha has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
 107 Sep 02 09:24:21 <Bryen>	c'mon people!  Dispute me!
 108 Sep 02 09:24:36 <Bryen>	Call me an idiot for expressing such a wacky opinion!  :-)
 109 Sep 02 09:24:45 <API>	Bryen, about the people missing meetings
 110 Sep 02 09:24:55 <API>	this is related with 
 111 Sep 02 09:24:59 <API>	4. We are ok with the current timetable? 
 112 Sep 02 09:25:04 <API>	It is clear that there are hours more popular than others 
 113 Sep 02 09:25:32 <API>	what do you think about the current timetable?
 114 Sep 02 09:25:49 <API>	right now Bryen joanie and others from America are just living-sleepers
 115 Sep 02 09:25:54 <Bryen>	It'll have to work,  we're pretty much out of options.   I mean this team has tried various hours for years now
 116 Sep 02 09:26:10 <Bryen>	API:  here's the deal....
 117 Sep 02 09:26:10 <API>	Bryen, hmm, yes this is a point
 118 Sep 02 09:26:25 <API>	it is obvious that there isn¡t a optimal timetable
 119 Sep 02 09:26:39 <Bryen>	Our meetings this year have become too bogged down with details.  And we don't really achieve much forward movement from our meetings.
 120 Sep 02 09:26:56 <Bryen>	We need to shift to a status-oriented meeting.  Which we seem to be doing well today.
 121 Sep 02 09:27:12 <Bryen>	That will help make the meetings more interesting to more people to come.
 122 Sep 02 09:27:24 <Bryen>	Also less frequent meetings will make it interesting
 123 Sep 02 09:27:48 <API>	we have made a good status-oriented meeting today because we had no details to debate about 
 124 Sep 02 09:27:50 <Bryen>	So the remaining question is, if we go with bi-weekly meetings, do we timeshift each time or stick with one time only?
 125 Sep 02 09:27:51 <API>	related to AEGIS
 126 Sep 02 09:28:06 *	AndChat (~juanje@212-166-167-82.red-acceso.airtel.net) has joined #a11y
 127 Sep 02 09:28:08 <API>	but that issue would arise again if we confront a similar situation
 128 Sep 02 09:28:36 <Bryen>	API,  no it shouldn't.  That's been the problem before.    Details should be worked out or discussed outside of the meeting
 129 Sep 02 09:29:19 <API>	Bryen, ok
 130 Sep 02 09:29:20 <API>	this is
 131 Sep 02 09:29:23 <API>	5. Some people showed some concerns about the current content and format. 
 132 Sep 02 09:29:26 <API>	Proposals? 
 133 Sep 02 09:30:30 <Bryen>	Put time limits on your agenda items and ask for status updates from the relevant person during the meeting.
 134 Sep 02 09:30:59 <API>	my agenda items?
 135 Sep 02 09:31:01 <API>	IMHO
 136 Sep 02 09:31:12 <API>	one of the problems is the fact that both
 137 Sep 02 09:31:21 <API>	joanie and me are the ones writing the agenda
 138 Sep 02 09:31:29 <API>	"One of the reasons to write the agenda on a wiki is allow people to propose things. Gently reminder. "
 139 Sep 02 09:31:39 <API>	we have asked to write items on the agenda
 140 Sep 02 09:31:46 <API>	to the people several times
 141 Sep 02 09:31:48 *	joanie nods
 142 Sep 02 09:31:49 <API>	sincerely
 143 Sep 02 09:31:56 <API>	if I write a agenda with the things I know
 144 Sep 02 09:32:03 <API>	and the agenda has just two items
 145 Sep 02 09:32:13 <API>	a update-status-meeting
 146 Sep 02 09:32:22 <API>	would mean a 10 minutes weekly meeting
 147 Sep 02 09:32:32 <Bryen>	ummm  no
 148 Sep 02 09:33:07 <API>	Bryen, proposal?
 149 Sep 02 09:33:28 <Bryen>	what I'm saying is,  once you have an agenda listed.   As meeting moderator, you look over the list and say "okay, this topic should take no more than 10 mins, that one 15" etc.   and then enforce it during the meeting
 150 Sep 02 09:34:05 <API>	Bryen, please read what I have just said
 151 Sep 02 09:34:16 <API>	joanie and me were writing the agenda 
 152 Sep 02 09:34:23 <API>	for the previous 
 153 Sep 02 09:34:27 <API>	meetings
 154 Sep 02 09:34:32 <API>	we were working on AEGIS
 155 Sep 02 09:34:38 <API>	obviously we would add that
 156 Sep 02 09:34:43 <API>	and full stop
 157 Sep 02 09:34:57 <API>	other items should appear from the other people
 158 Sep 02 09:35:09 <Bryen>	API,   Even though we always encourage people to add to an agenda, in reality people rarely do.   
 159 Sep 02 09:35:18 <API>	if as moderator I just see two items on the agenda
 160 Sep 02 09:35:21 <Bryen>	if no one adds items, then it doesn't get talked about, 
 161 Sep 02 09:35:23 <joanie>	Bryen: exactly. So how do we change that?
 162 Sep 02 09:35:25 <API>	I can say "ok, 30 for each"
 163 Sep 02 09:35:47 <Bryen>	Take a look at http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Marketing_meeting#Proposed_Agenda_for_10-August-2010_Meeting
 164 Sep 02 09:36:01 *	jrocha (~JRocha@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y
 165 Sep 02 09:36:06 <Bryen>	I leave an opening in that meeting for miscellaneous topics at the end of planned agenda items
 166 Sep 02 09:36:08 *	j-rocha (~JRocha@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y
 167 Sep 02 09:36:22 <Bryen>	that gives people a chance to add during the meeting.  (Not everyone wants to touch a wiki)
 168 Sep 02 09:36:29 *	j-rocha has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
 169 Sep 02 09:37:23 <Bryen>	The other thing you want to do is always have the agenda on the same URL.   Don't add it to a new page.    Or people will never find it
 170 Sep 02 09:38:04 <API>	Bryen, it is always in the same place
 171 Sep 02 09:38:04 <Bryen>	ok so now we're getting bogged into details and this should be taken outside of the meeting   :-)
 172 Sep 02 09:38:19 <API>	next agenda is just after the minutes of the previous one
 173 Sep 02 09:38:45 <API>	Bryen, and we always left space for miscellaneous things
 174 Sep 02 09:38:50 <API>	I always ask for "anything else"
 175 Sep 02 09:38:54 <API>	but if you want
 176 Sep 02 09:39:01 <API>	I can write that explicitly on the agenda
 177 Sep 02 09:39:50 <Bryen>	Like I said, we're getting bogged in details now,  let's continue this off-meeting  via email or something,  okay?
 178 Sep 02 09:40:40 <API>	Bryen, ok, right now it seems to be a three people discussion
 179 Sep 02 09:40:49 <API>	so summarizing
 180 Sep 02 09:40:52 <API>	we need to ask in the list:
 181 Sep 02 09:40:59 <API>	We still need weekly meetings? 
 182 Sep 02 09:41:06 <API>	Some people showed some concerns about the current content and format.
 183 Sep 02 09:41:06 <API>	    * Proposals? 
 184 Sep 02 09:41:14 <API>	we can avoid the timetable debate
 185 Sep 02 09:41:28 <API>	as you said it is really difficult
 186 Sep 02 09:41:38 <API>	to get a good time for anyone
 187 Sep 02 09:41:50 <Bryen>	And hope that people answer on the ML  :-)
 188 Sep 02 09:42:36 <API>	yes, hope is the last thing you lose
 189 Sep 02 09:42:42 <API>	so, the other item in the agenda
 190 Sep 02 09:42:47 <API>	Brief GNOME 3 updates
 191 Sep 02 09:42:47 <API>	    * AT-SPI ?
 192 Sep 02 09:42:47 <API>	    * gnome-mag? 
 193 Sep 02 09:42:56 <API>	mgorse, joanie any at-spi update?
 194 Sep 02 09:43:05 <joanie>	not from me
 195 Sep 02 09:43:16 *	raywang (~raywang@219.234.180.146) has joined #a11y
 196 Sep 02 09:44:47 <Bryen>	I think mike went to bed 
 197 Sep 02 09:45:52 <Bryen>	and API too  :-)
 198 Sep 02 09:46:16 <API>	just waiting
 199 Sep 02 09:46:22 <API>	well, the other gnome-mag update
 200 Sep 02 09:46:25 <API>	fer is not here
 201 Sep 02 09:46:41 <API>	eeejay, are you here? 
 202 Sep 02 09:47:51 <API>	ok, so no caribou updates as well ;)
 203 Sep 02 09:48:12 <API>	he sent a mail to desktop-devel related to that
 204 Sep 02 09:48:30 <API>	Pendulum, and you are here?
 205 Sep 02 09:49:41 <API>	well, Pendulum is not here
 206 Sep 02 09:49:47 <API>	but eeejay in his mail 
 207 Sep 02 09:49:55 <API>	mentioned that due Caribou delay
 208 Sep 02 09:50:04 <API>	to enter on GNOME release cycle
 209 Sep 02 09:50:28 <API>	distributions would solve that in other ways
 210 Sep 02 09:50:47 <API>	he mentioned that Ubuntu has his own keyboard
 211 Sep 02 09:50:49 <API>	Onboard
 212 Sep 02 09:51:07 <API>	anyone knows anything about it?
 213 Sep 02 09:51:21 <joanie>	I don't, but why can't we ship GOK?
 214 Sep 02 09:51:35 <joanie>	We still have CSPI (right?)
 215 Sep 02 09:52:24 <API>	well eeejay words were
 216 Sep 02 09:52:28 <API>	"This comes at a very high cost, specifically the lack of an on screen
 217 Sep 02 09:52:28 <API>	keyboard in the next release, since GOK is discontinued and has multiple
 218 Sep 02 09:52:28 <API>	deprecated dependencies."
 219 Sep 02 09:52:48 <joanie>	Right....
 220 Sep 02 09:52:55 <API>	http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#GOK_.28drop_for_GNOME3.29
 221 Sep 02 09:52:59 <joanie>	But aren't all those deprecated dependencies still shipping?
 222 Sep 02 09:53:03 <API>	GOK also depends upon XEvIE to some extent, and XEvIE has also been retired
 223 Sep 02 09:53:15 <joanie>	because bonobo deprecation isn't taking place for 2.32
 224 Sep 02 09:53:18 <API>	so probably this is the other dependency he is talking about
 225 Sep 02 09:53:33 <API>	other dependency == no bonobo dependency
 226 Sep 02 09:53:48 <Bryen>	Are we saying that for 2.32 we won't have a shipped onscreen keyboard?
 227 Sep 02 09:54:22 <joanie>	wait, I'm still confused. I thought that the GNOME 3.0 deprecations are GNOME 3.0 deprecations. And we are not shipping GNOME 3.0 this release
 228 Sep 02 09:54:53 <API>	this is the reason I started this point ;)
 229 Sep 02 09:55:01 <joanie>	;-)
 230 Sep 02 09:55:02 <API>	I wanted to ask 
 231 Sep 02 09:55:11 <API>	eeejay, to explain it further
 232 Sep 02 09:55:53 <joanie>	I guess the thing to do, maybe, is respond to his message on desktop-devel-list?
 233 Sep 02 09:56:35 <API>	yeah this sounds a good idea, instead of just launch random guesses here
 234 Sep 02 09:56:40 <API>	well 5 minutes to go
 235 Sep 02 09:56:47 *	joanie chuckles
 236 Sep 02 09:56:47 <API>	anything else?
 237 Sep 02 09:56:53 <API>	people?
 238 Sep 02 09:56:54 *	Bryen raises hand
 239 Sep 02 09:57:17 <API>	Bryen, go on
 240 Sep 02 09:57:40 <Bryen>	1)  I sent out an email the other day that Paul Cutler is seeking release notes regarding A11y for 2.32.  But no takers to write it up, anyone interested??
 241 Sep 02 09:58:07 <joanie>	I think the way that normally works is that maintainers add a bullet point or two
 242 Sep 02 09:58:16 <joanie>	I was planning on having to do so 
 243 Sep 02 09:58:40 <Bryen>	2) CSUN CFP opened today and closes October 13.  I will send this announcement on the ML, but I'd like to try to coordinate what everyone submits because at the last CSUN there was too much of a common topic amongst all of our presenters and I'd like to try to ensure more diversity 
 244 Sep 02 09:59:04 <Bryen>	But giving you a heads up now if you all want to submit.
 245 Sep 02 10:00:13 <Bryen>	3) Nothing else atm that needs discussion
 246 Sep 02 10:00:50 <Bryen>	API, I guess you can lead us in Closing Prayers now
 247 Sep 02 10:01:05 <API>	just in time
 248 Sep 02 10:01:12 <API>	the meeting is over
 249 Sep 02 10:01:32 <Bryen>	In the name of the API, and the API, and the Holy API... Amen.   :-)
 250 Sep 02 10:02:14 <Bryen>	Good night joanie,  good morning API.
 251 Sep 02 10:02:24 <joanie>	nite Bryen
 252 Sep 02 10:02:29 <API>	Bryen, good morning