Sep 02 08:33:20 * Now talking on #a11y Sep 02 08:43:05 T-17... and maaaan am I tired! Sep 02 08:50:50 * jrocha (~JRocha@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y Sep 02 08:57:37 ok who's awake with 3 minutes to go? Sep 02 08:57:55 * joanie raises her hand Sep 02 08:59:00 * API Im still sleep, and you all are a dream Sep 02 08:59:21 I don't know if I'm comfortable being in API's dreams Sep 02 08:59:33 I mean, I consider myself a pretty sexy guy and all, but this is just a bit too much Sep 02 08:59:35 * joanie prepares mischief Sep 02 08:59:57 * API now it is becoming a nightmare Sep 02 09:00:10 heh Sep 02 09:00:17 o/ Sep 02 09:00:21 hell I'm awake and its already a nightmare! Sep 02 09:00:33 \o Sep 02 09:00:43 (small head this time) :-P Sep 02 09:00:55 hola aleiva Sep 02 09:01:09 hi Sep 02 09:01:18 Bryen: ah! hola Bryen Sep 02 09:01:42 * Bryen has been practicing Portuguese for November, but probably should be practicing Spanish for October Sep 02 09:01:58 * tomeu (~tomeu@148.128.broadband13.iol.cz) has joined #a11y Sep 02 09:02:44 aleiva, quick question before they start the meeting. How does one get to Italica without a car? And how much time should be spent touring Italica? Sep 02 09:03:42 Bryen: I think you can get a bus but if more is interested and I have enough time I can carry you to Italica Sep 02 09:03:54 Bryen: time, it depends, but around 2 hours is ok Sep 02 09:04:11 Cool Sep 02 09:04:24 Bryen: Italica is very near to Sevilla Sep 02 09:04:51 s/carry/bring Sep 02 09:04:54 aleiva, My plan is to get to Barcelona on the 24th and then to Sevilla on the 29th so I have time to enjoy the sights and do some photography Sep 02 09:04:56 you're humans not objects :P Sep 02 09:06:05 ok API, let's wake up so we can go to sleep sooner. Sep 02 09:06:36 whoa... stormy stayed awake! Sep 02 09:06:41 (we think) Sep 02 09:07:04 Bryen, just replying (really late) eeejay question about the real hour of the meeting Sep 02 09:07:15 * juanje (~jojeda@83.175.203.146) has joined #a11y Sep 02 09:07:23 subject-body was not sync Sep 02 09:07:30 anyway Sep 02 09:07:32 lets start Sep 02 09:07:39 we have already Sep 02 09:07:44 API, It's the present hour :-) Sep 02 09:07:49 provide a good margin for Sep 02 09:08:08 so, if nobody propose other thing Sep 02 09:08:14 lets go with the current proposed agenda Sep 02 09:08:17 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Minutes/20100826#Agenda_for_the_next_meeting Sep 02 09:08:26 1. Brief AEGIS update Sep 02 09:08:34 just to comment that we have sent Sep 02 09:08:43 to the travel committe Sep 02 09:09:08 ok I gotta ask a question about that... Sep 02 09:09:09 a budget estimation (hotel+air) Sep 02 09:09:17 now waiting for answer Sep 02 09:09:21 Bryen, shoot Sep 02 09:09:50 Why is it taking this long? Last I heard they were coming up with final numbers a few weeks ago over a weekend. And this sllooowww delay is agonizing Sep 02 09:10:14 to the point where literally price has gone from $816 this past Monday to $1177 today for roundtrip airfare Sep 02 09:10:31 And we're less than 30 days away. This is seriously down to the wire. Sep 02 09:10:45 Bryen, we are doing that as fast as our possibilities and day-responsabilities Sep 02 09:10:47 allows Sep 02 09:10:55 and it is not just a thing of our side Sep 02 09:11:09 some times we need to wait for travel committe information Sep 02 09:11:28 I already know that airfares increases with time Sep 02 09:11:32 Yes but my point is do the travel committee realize the urgency here? Sep 02 09:11:32 and worse Sep 02 09:11:45 Ke Lang and Li Yuan probably couldn't come due VISA Sep 02 09:11:53 Bryen, I will try to ping them today Sep 02 09:11:58 I mean, if this is way over our original request amount, we're probably going to have to eat it. And then some will not be able to get a visa in time Sep 02 09:12:00 no answer since we sent the mail Sep 02 09:12:49 ok Sep 02 09:13:09 well I have gave my update Sep 02 09:13:21 Bryen has made a question Sep 02 09:13:34 anyone have any answer/comment from AEGIS or we can just move on? Sep 02 09:14:04 aleiva, Any hotel updates? Sep 02 09:15:07 Bryen: well, I'm waiting to definitive answer from committe to make the booking Sep 02 09:15:28 aleiva, Ok but do we have at least a tentative place? Sep 02 09:15:38 and price? Sep 02 09:15:58 Bryen: the tentative place is the same as the last two meetings, tryp macarena, around 60~80 Sep 02 09:16:46 ok, thought we were going to look at other options since that place isn't available on the 9th. But alright, we can figure that on our own. Sep 02 09:17:17 I think most people will be gone Sep 02 09:17:19 Bryen: it's not final that isn't available Sep 02 09:17:29 ok Sep 02 09:17:36 Bryen: it's not the same 10 persons than one or two Sep 02 09:17:52 ok Sep 02 09:17:53 Bryen: surely if only one or two want to stay from the 9th will be ok Sep 02 09:18:14 aleiva: and if not, you'll help us find suitable places, right? :-) Sep 02 09:18:17 Bryen: if not we have more options, but as I said, until committe response I'm stalled Sep 02 09:18:21 joanie: of course Sep 02 09:19:30 ok I guess we can move on Sep 02 09:19:53 ok Sep 02 09:20:08 3. We still need weekly meetings? Sep 02 09:20:18 some people felt Sep 02 09:20:21 What was 2.? Sep 02 09:20:29 2. Brief GNOME 3 updates Sep 02 09:20:34 but as I said on the agenda Sep 02 09:20:38 are technical details Sep 02 09:20:42 we can talk about it later Sep 02 09:20:45 ok Sep 02 09:20:51 as I was saying Sep 02 09:20:55 some people felt Sep 02 09:21:05 that current weekly meetings go too much into detail Sep 02 09:21:09 I think weekly has become overkill for us Sep 02 09:21:21 or too many meetings Sep 02 09:21:29 yes, thats it Sep 02 09:21:46 so one question is: Sep 02 09:21:54 are we ok with weekly meeting? Sep 02 09:21:56 too much? Sep 02 09:22:08 should we move to a meeting each two weeks? Sep 02 09:22:20 to a meeting each time we have a relevant thing to debate? Sep 02 09:22:33 My opinion: It is overkill, but... if we do bi-weekly, then that essentially means those in each group meet once a month. Sep 02 09:23:02 But if we can get into more pokings, I think we can survive. Sep 02 09:23:06 * jrocha has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds) Sep 02 09:24:21 c'mon people! Dispute me! Sep 02 09:24:36 Call me an idiot for expressing such a wacky opinion! :-) Sep 02 09:24:45 Bryen, about the people missing meetings Sep 02 09:24:55 this is related with Sep 02 09:24:59 4. We are ok with the current timetable? Sep 02 09:25:04 It is clear that there are hours more popular than others Sep 02 09:25:32 what do you think about the current timetable? Sep 02 09:25:49 right now Bryen joanie and others from America are just living-sleepers Sep 02 09:25:54 It'll have to work, we're pretty much out of options. I mean this team has tried various hours for years now Sep 02 09:26:10 API: here's the deal.... Sep 02 09:26:10 Bryen, hmm, yes this is a point Sep 02 09:26:25 it is obvious that there isn¡t a optimal timetable Sep 02 09:26:39 Our meetings this year have become too bogged down with details. And we don't really achieve much forward movement from our meetings. Sep 02 09:26:56 We need to shift to a status-oriented meeting. Which we seem to be doing well today. Sep 02 09:27:12 That will help make the meetings more interesting to more people to come. Sep 02 09:27:24 Also less frequent meetings will make it interesting Sep 02 09:27:48 we have made a good status-oriented meeting today because we had no details to debate about Sep 02 09:27:50 So the remaining question is, if we go with bi-weekly meetings, do we timeshift each time or stick with one time only? Sep 02 09:27:51 related to AEGIS Sep 02 09:28:06 * AndChat (~juanje@212-166-167-82.red-acceso.airtel.net) has joined #a11y Sep 02 09:28:08 but that issue would arise again if we confront a similar situation Sep 02 09:28:36 API, no it shouldn't. That's been the problem before. Details should be worked out or discussed outside of the meeting Sep 02 09:29:19 Bryen, ok Sep 02 09:29:20 this is Sep 02 09:29:23 5. Some people showed some concerns about the current content and format. Sep 02 09:29:26 Proposals? Sep 02 09:30:30 Put time limits on your agenda items and ask for status updates from the relevant person during the meeting. Sep 02 09:30:59 my agenda items? Sep 02 09:31:01 IMHO Sep 02 09:31:12 one of the problems is the fact that both Sep 02 09:31:21 joanie and me are the ones writing the agenda Sep 02 09:31:29 "One of the reasons to write the agenda on a wiki is allow people to propose things. Gently reminder. " Sep 02 09:31:39 we have asked to write items on the agenda Sep 02 09:31:46 to the people several times Sep 02 09:31:48 * joanie nods Sep 02 09:31:49 sincerely Sep 02 09:31:56 if I write a agenda with the things I know Sep 02 09:32:03 and the agenda has just two items Sep 02 09:32:13 a update-status-meeting Sep 02 09:32:22 would mean a 10 minutes weekly meeting Sep 02 09:32:32 ummm no Sep 02 09:33:07 Bryen, proposal? Sep 02 09:33:28 what I'm saying is, once you have an agenda listed. As meeting moderator, you look over the list and say "okay, this topic should take no more than 10 mins, that one 15" etc. and then enforce it during the meeting Sep 02 09:34:05 Bryen, please read what I have just said Sep 02 09:34:16 joanie and me were writing the agenda Sep 02 09:34:23 for the previous Sep 02 09:34:27 meetings Sep 02 09:34:32 we were working on AEGIS Sep 02 09:34:38 obviously we would add that Sep 02 09:34:43 and full stop Sep 02 09:34:57 other items should appear from the other people Sep 02 09:35:09 API, Even though we always encourage people to add to an agenda, in reality people rarely do. Sep 02 09:35:18 if as moderator I just see two items on the agenda Sep 02 09:35:21 if no one adds items, then it doesn't get talked about, Sep 02 09:35:23 Bryen: exactly. So how do we change that? Sep 02 09:35:25 I can say "ok, 30 for each" Sep 02 09:35:47 Take a look at http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Marketing_meeting#Proposed_Agenda_for_10-August-2010_Meeting Sep 02 09:36:01 * jrocha (~JRocha@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y Sep 02 09:36:06 I leave an opening in that meeting for miscellaneous topics at the end of planned agenda items Sep 02 09:36:08 * j-rocha (~JRocha@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com) has joined #a11y Sep 02 09:36:22 that gives people a chance to add during the meeting. (Not everyone wants to touch a wiki) Sep 02 09:36:29 * j-rocha has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) Sep 02 09:37:23 The other thing you want to do is always have the agenda on the same URL. Don't add it to a new page. Or people will never find it Sep 02 09:38:04 Bryen, it is always in the same place Sep 02 09:38:04 ok so now we're getting bogged into details and this should be taken outside of the meeting :-) Sep 02 09:38:19 next agenda is just after the minutes of the previous one Sep 02 09:38:45 Bryen, and we always left space for miscellaneous things Sep 02 09:38:50 I always ask for "anything else" Sep 02 09:38:54 but if you want Sep 02 09:39:01 I can write that explicitly on the agenda Sep 02 09:39:50 Like I said, we're getting bogged in details now, let's continue this off-meeting via email or something, okay? Sep 02 09:40:40 Bryen, ok, right now it seems to be a three people discussion Sep 02 09:40:49 so summarizing Sep 02 09:40:52 we need to ask in the list: Sep 02 09:40:59 We still need weekly meetings? Sep 02 09:41:06 Some people showed some concerns about the current content and format. Sep 02 09:41:06 * Proposals? Sep 02 09:41:14 we can avoid the timetable debate Sep 02 09:41:28 as you said it is really difficult Sep 02 09:41:38 to get a good time for anyone Sep 02 09:41:50 And hope that people answer on the ML :-) Sep 02 09:42:36 yes, hope is the last thing you lose Sep 02 09:42:42 so, the other item in the agenda Sep 02 09:42:47 Brief GNOME 3 updates Sep 02 09:42:47 * AT-SPI ? Sep 02 09:42:47 * gnome-mag? Sep 02 09:42:56 mgorse, joanie any at-spi update? Sep 02 09:43:05 not from me Sep 02 09:43:16 * raywang (~raywang@219.234.180.146) has joined #a11y Sep 02 09:44:47 I think mike went to bed Sep 02 09:45:52 and API too :-) Sep 02 09:46:16 just waiting Sep 02 09:46:22 well, the other gnome-mag update Sep 02 09:46:25 fer is not here Sep 02 09:46:41 eeejay, are you here? Sep 02 09:47:51 ok, so no caribou updates as well ;) Sep 02 09:48:12 he sent a mail to desktop-devel related to that Sep 02 09:48:30 Pendulum, and you are here? Sep 02 09:49:41 well, Pendulum is not here Sep 02 09:49:47 but eeejay in his mail Sep 02 09:49:55 mentioned that due Caribou delay Sep 02 09:50:04 to enter on GNOME release cycle Sep 02 09:50:28 distributions would solve that in other ways Sep 02 09:50:47 he mentioned that Ubuntu has his own keyboard Sep 02 09:50:49 Onboard Sep 02 09:51:07 anyone knows anything about it? Sep 02 09:51:21 I don't, but why can't we ship GOK? Sep 02 09:51:35 We still have CSPI (right?) Sep 02 09:52:24 well eeejay words were Sep 02 09:52:28 "This comes at a very high cost, specifically the lack of an on screen Sep 02 09:52:28 keyboard in the next release, since GOK is discontinued and has multiple Sep 02 09:52:28 deprecated dependencies." Sep 02 09:52:48 Right.... Sep 02 09:52:55 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#GOK_.28drop_for_GNOME3.29 Sep 02 09:52:59 But aren't all those deprecated dependencies still shipping? Sep 02 09:53:03 GOK also depends upon XEvIE to some extent, and XEvIE has also been retired Sep 02 09:53:15 because bonobo deprecation isn't taking place for 2.32 Sep 02 09:53:18 so probably this is the other dependency he is talking about Sep 02 09:53:33 other dependency == no bonobo dependency Sep 02 09:53:48 Are we saying that for 2.32 we won't have a shipped onscreen keyboard? Sep 02 09:54:22 wait, I'm still confused. I thought that the GNOME 3.0 deprecations are GNOME 3.0 deprecations. And we are not shipping GNOME 3.0 this release Sep 02 09:54:53 this is the reason I started this point ;) Sep 02 09:55:01 ;-) Sep 02 09:55:02 I wanted to ask Sep 02 09:55:11 eeejay, to explain it further Sep 02 09:55:53 I guess the thing to do, maybe, is respond to his message on desktop-devel-list? Sep 02 09:56:35 yeah this sounds a good idea, instead of just launch random guesses here Sep 02 09:56:40 well 5 minutes to go Sep 02 09:56:47 * joanie chuckles Sep 02 09:56:47 anything else? Sep 02 09:56:53 people? Sep 02 09:56:54 * Bryen raises hand Sep 02 09:57:17 Bryen, go on Sep 02 09:57:40 1) I sent out an email the other day that Paul Cutler is seeking release notes regarding A11y for 2.32. But no takers to write it up, anyone interested?? Sep 02 09:58:07 I think the way that normally works is that maintainers add a bullet point or two Sep 02 09:58:16 I was planning on having to do so Sep 02 09:58:40 2) CSUN CFP opened today and closes October 13. I will send this announcement on the ML, but I'd like to try to coordinate what everyone submits because at the last CSUN there was too much of a common topic amongst all of our presenters and I'd like to try to ensure more diversity Sep 02 09:59:04 But giving you a heads up now if you all want to submit. Sep 02 10:00:13 3) Nothing else atm that needs discussion Sep 02 10:00:50 API, I guess you can lead us in Closing Prayers now Sep 02 10:01:05 just in time Sep 02 10:01:12 the meeting is over Sep 02 10:01:32 In the name of the API, and the API, and the Holy API... Amen. :-) Sep 02 10:02:14 Good night joanie, good morning API. Sep 02 10:02:24 nite Bryen Sep 02 10:02:29 Bryen, good morning