1 (15:01:08) joanie: Hey y'all. API left me in charge, so run for the hills screaming. :-P
   2 (15:02:08) ***clown arrrgggghhhhh!
   3 (15:02:11) clown: :-)
   4 (15:02:22) ***Bryen swoops in
   5 (15:02:32) joanie: Well, clown's awake anyway :-)
   6 (15:02:36) Bryen: joanie, This is a big problem...
   7 (15:02:41) Bryen: There are no hills in the Midwest
   8 (15:02:42) joanie: what is a big problem?
   9 (15:02:42) ***clown *yawn*
  10 (15:02:48) Bryen: :-)
  11 (15:02:55) joanie: you will need to run faster then Bryen
  12 (15:03:05) ***clown reminds everyone to not take me too seriously
  13 (15:03:09) joanie: fast enough to locate hills in a timely fashion so that you can begin screaming
  14 (15:03:25) ***Bryen high-fives slee
  15 (15:03:38) ***clown notes that there are very few hills in downtown Toronto.
  16 (15:03:44) slee: high-five right back at ya
  17 (15:03:46) Bryen: and asks slee if we can arrange some time outside of the meeting to discuss stuff
  18 (15:03:50) joanie: Clown don't worry we don^H^H^H
  19 (15:04:10) joanie: FFS y'all just run and scream, okay? :-P
  20 (15:04:11) ***Bryen seriously wants to honk clown's nose
  21 (15:04:12) slee: Bryen: eh?
  22 (15:04:30) ***clown puts on a nose gay
  23 (15:04:36) Bryen: slee, to discuss a buncha outreach stuff now that you're back to civilization :-)
  24 (15:04:40) bnitz: bnitz here too, first time a11y mtg newbie
  25 (15:04:49) joanie: bnitz: woo hoo! Welcome
  26 (15:04:52) Bryen: welcome bnitz
  27 (15:05:14) bnitz: Thanks all!
  28 (15:05:14) clown: hi bnitz
  29 (15:05:34) joanie: Given bnitz is here and that it's ever so slightly after 15:00 UTC, I saw we get the proverbial show on the proverbial road
  30 (15:05:44) ***joanie bangs a gavel-like object
  31 (15:05:47) slee: Bryen - yep back in the real world and ready to rock, next week
  32 (15:05:52) joanie: Looking at the agenda
  33 (15:05:55) ***slee looks at agenda
  34 (15:05:59) ***clown s/gavel-like/scepter-like/
  35 (15:06:00) slee: heh
  36 (15:06:00) joanie: Travel Committee as always
  37 (15:06:13) joanie: So chatting with API this morning
  38 (15:06:19) joanie: Where we are at is this:
  39 (15:06:31) ***Bryen looks at the wall
  40 (15:06:50) joanie: We have taken what we hope is the final list of attendees with airfare and estimated hotel rates based on the hotel aleiva found for us
  41 (15:06:55) slee: I got email saying they had my application
  42 (15:07:00) joanie: it's just about ready to be sent off to the travel committee
  43 (15:07:05) joanie: and hopefully they will bless it
  44 (15:07:19) joanie: and we will never, ever EVER have to talk about travel, funding, and committees again
  45 (15:07:30) slee: Wh00t
  46 (15:07:32) joanie: slee: yeah, they send those out
  47 (15:07:53) joanie: but what we aren't yet sure of is if we have enough money for everyone to go (a lot of people submitted applications)
  48 (15:08:10) joanie: some of whom are not, well, GNOME contributors. :-)
  49 (15:08:11) slee: joanie: sure
  50 (15:08:19) clown: joanie, slee: I haven't heard anything lately about my application to the gnome foundation. About 4 (3?) weeks ago, I got confirmation that they had it.
  51 (15:08:22) slee: ehhm
  52 (15:08:29) joanie: clown: stay tuned
  53 (15:08:34) joanie: I think we're almost there
  54 (15:08:59) tomeu: I would recommend pinging regularly
  55 (15:08:59) slee: clown: seems to be the way - I got confirmation few days ago
  56 (15:09:00) joanie: and hopefully very soon we will have confirmation so that those the Foundation can afford to send will be able to book flights
  57 (15:09:12) clown: joanie, well a problem is that I'm sharing the hotel with a co-worker (who has other funding), but he needs to know *soon* about my funding so he can book the room.
  58 (15:09:26) joanie: understood
  59 (15:09:41) clown: perhaps I should ping my contact (bharath) at the GF? Or is that not apropos?
  60 (15:09:56) joanie: clown: Your friend would tell you the following:
  61 (15:10:04) joanie: We need the final list from the GNOME a11y people
  62 (15:10:10) clown: ah.
  63 (15:10:12) joanie: the GNOME a11y people are about to send them the list
  64 (15:10:15) clown: that would by "us"
  65 (15:10:21) joanie: correct :-)
  66 (15:10:21) clown: 'be "us"'
  67 (15:10:24) joanie: yup
  68 (15:10:49) joanie: it turns out that there is this (what I personally consider to be) silly bouncing back and fourth
  69 (15:10:54) joanie: forth even
  70 (15:15:05) joanie: people submit apps to the committee
  71 (15:15:13) joanie: the committee bounces that back to us
  72 (15:15:18) joanie: and says compile a list
  73 (15:15:23) joanie: IMHO they HAVE the list
  74 (15:15:26) joanie: anyhoo
  75 (15:15:39) Bryen: I think the whole process could definitely have been stream-lined and got overly bureaucratic
  76 (15:15:41) joanie: we are about to re-bounce the re-list back to them for re-consideration and final approval
  77 (15:15:58) joanie: Bryen: I totally agree. And that it was this ... bouncing ... was news to me and API
  78 (15:16:03) clown: joanie, you re-rock!
  79 (15:16:08) Bryen: and leaving people in a bit of a lurch as the longer this takes, the more we're responsible for differences from original quote and final quote
  80 (15:16:10) joanie: re-thanks
  81 (15:16:15) joanie: Bryen: I agree
  82 (15:16:16) clown: re-wlcm
  83 (15:13:01) joanie: So other comments, questions, or observations about the inefficient nature of the process? :-)
  84 (15:13:34) Bryen: I responded to API a few mins ago about a query he had
  85 (15:13:36) bnitz: joanie: More efficient than those going the corposnafu funding route?
  86 (15:13:47) joanie: Heh
  87 (15:13:50) Bryen: seems he was under the impression that the request of interpreters would be funded outside of GNOME. Which I never said
  88 (15:14:13) joanie: Given your new overlords (as I understand it), I am TOTALLY refraining from commenting. ;-)
  89 (15:14:23) aleiva: joanie: I'll still waiting until confirmation for hotel reservation
  90 (15:14:28) joanie: Bryen: huh?
  91 (15:14:32) aleiva: joanie: is it ok?
  92 (15:14:40) bnitz: joanie: ;-)
  93 (15:14:42) joanie: aleiva: It's good. :-)
  94 (15:15:00) Bryen: joanie, my sentiments exactly when I read it... "Huh?" :-)
  95 (15:15:02) aleiva: joanie: please ping me you or API when it happens
  96 (15:15:25) joanie: aleiva: Do you have any doubts that I won't come and find you *grin*
  97 (15:15:30) bnitz: joanie: Fww I plan to attend but can't book anything until (shrugs) Hope tryp and/or Seville has a room or two left by then.
  98 (15:15:39) aleiva: joanie: I'm polite, indeed
  99 (15:16:06) joanie: bnitz: Meet aleiva: He's my (Orca's) new co-maintainer
 100 (15:16:06) ***clown sympathizes with bnitz re: rooms
 101 (15:16:12) joanie: and aleiva is in Sevilla
 102 (15:16:14) aleiva: bnitz: hi
 103 (15:16:31) Bryen: Maybe we can stay in Italica? In one of the old ruins? :-)
 104 (15:16:37) bnitz: aleiva: Hi. Good to meet you!
 105 (15:16:50) joanie: aleiva: I've never met bnitz, but he's going to do the testing session and he is with Orca [post-meeting edit by JD: Oracle](formerly from Sun) (right bnitz)
 106 (15:17:04) aleiva: nice
 107 (15:17:06) bnitz: joanie:Yes.
 108 (15:17:20) Bryen: Awesome, bnitz
 109 (15:17:20) joanie: bnitz: anyhoo, the point is regarding rooms and such, talk to aleiva. He will find you something.
 110 (15:17:40) ***joanie is grateful every day that the Consorcio gave us aleiva
 111 (15:17:56) aleiva: well, was not the consorcio but myself ! :D
 112 (15:18:01) bnitz: joanie: Thanks
 113 (15:18:02) joanie: (for Orca work; not for hotels. hotel is a side benefit)
 114 (15:18:12) joanie: aleiva: Well, you know what I mean. :-)
 115 (15:18:22) joanie: okay, enough with the (my) chit chat
 116 (15:18:28) joanie: moving on in the agenda
 117 (15:18:31) bnitz: Alieva: I'm using ldtp, orca and bits of accerciser
 118 (15:18:41) slee: my only point is earlier you book the cheaper in many cases
 119 (15:18:57) slee: and I'm still waiting to get confirm for flight and hotel
 120 (15:18:58) Bryen: Just a quick FYI: I just got word last night that LatinoWare is sponsoring me to do an A11y Keynote in Brazil in November.
 121 (15:18:58) bnitz: s/Alieva/aleiva (sorry...)
 122 (15:19:05) aleiva: bnitz: np
 123 (15:19:11) joanie: Bryen: I realize that last time you said that there would be no more updates about alternative funding until you had updates about alternative funding
 124 (15:19:13) Bryen: Seems a11y is a big conversational word these days in South America
 125 (15:19:17) joanie: Bryen: cool
 126 (15:19:42) Bryen: joanie, Nothing more atm. Still pinging. Not giving up :-)
 127 (15:19:51) joanie: Bryen: but since I see "alternative funding sources" as an agenda item, I am obliged to ask... Ah. thanks. :-)
 128 (15:20:03) joanie: moving on
 129 (15:20:05) joanie: Posters
 130 (15:20:06) joanie: heh
 131 (15:20:15) clown: may I have the scepter?
 132 (15:20:19) joanie: clown: sure
 133 (15:20:46) clown: Since I am submitting a paper, one of my co-authors has said he will make a poster based on that paper.
 134 (15:21:06) clown: we are working now to get it all done by next tues.
 135 (15:21:14) ***clown reliquishes scepter
 136 (15:21:23) Bryen: What's the topic about?
 137 (15:21:35) clown: gnome shell magnifier
 138 (15:21:48) Bryen: Cool
 139 (15:21:59) clown: thanks
 140 (15:22:07) joanie: I'm honestly still wondering what to write about Orca
 141 (15:22:11) Bryen: man the 31'st is approaching too fast
 142 (15:22:18) clown: indeed...
 143 (15:22:19) joanie: I mean, I can write about Orca all day
 144 (15:22:26) joanie: but we haven't done any research or the like
 145 (15:22:31) aleiva: I confirm that
 146 (15:22:44) joanie: and there is no "Orca paper" per se
 147 (15:22:47) joanie: so....
 148 (15:22:57) joanie: But I will come up with something
 149 (15:22:57) Bryen: joanie, Just give a brief summary of what Orca is and why it rocks better than others
 150 (15:23:06) clown: we haven't done research on gs-mag, but some user testing has been done with in Europe. Don't know the results, though.
 151 (15:23:10) joanie: Bryen: true....
 152 (15:23:19) Bryen: keep it simple, not too much text or no one will read it
 153 (15:23:23) joanie: But as you know, posters are academicy
 154 (15:23:32) joanie: and I can write academicy
 155 (15:23:46) joanie: but I need some academicy content. Which I lack
 156 (15:23:49) joanie: but I'll punt
 157 (15:23:58) slee: joanie: I did one for a conf on Jambu and had no research - it's good to tell a stroy
 158 (15:24:03) slee: *story
 159 (15:24:06) joanie: it's just one more thing I don't have time for
 160 (15:24:15) joanie: slee: Story time. Yay! ;-)
 161 (15:24:24) joanie: sorry. That's a good idea. thanks!
 162 (15:24:45) ***joanie wants to start doing research. But that's another topic for another (and perhaps different) meeting
 163 (15:24:52) davidb: "Call me Ishmael,"
 164 (15:24:54) joanie: so if there's nothing else on posters
 165 (15:25:01) joanie: davidb: You are Ishmael
 166 (15:25:11) davidb: more like moby really
 167 (15:25:16) aleiva: haha
 168 (15:25:21) joanie: bnitz: Testing session details
 169 (15:25:28) joanie: bnitz: Floor is yours
 170 (15:25:33) ***clown davidb is a whale?
 171 (15:25:41) slee: joanie: http://fullmeasure.co.uk/raate07/
 172 (15:25:49) davidb: clown: GET. IN. MY. BELLY!
 173 (15:26:00) ***clown is not Job
 174 (15:26:04) joanie: y'all....
 175 (15:26:14) ***clown is shutting up now.
 176 (15:26:45) bnitz: joanie: The short of it is, how to test if your application is accessible. An A11Y automation test tinderbox.
 177 (15:27:03) clown: bnitz: cool...
 178 (15:27:06) heidi: joanie: I'd be quite interested in doing research related to OSS and Gnome.
 179 (15:27:22) joanie: heidi: (awesome. let's talk later)
 180 (15:27:22) ***Bryen hugs heidi
 181 (15:27:27) heidi: :-)
 182 (15:27:39) heidi: joanie: Yes, I'd be happy to talk.
 183 (15:27:40) bnitz: joanie:It isn't written yet but I should have enough bits together to show how you would right this kind of test, what makes a11y break...
 184 (15:28:18) Bryen: Is this based on LDTP, or?
 185 (15:28:20) aleiva: bnitz: only a question, which entity validate the result?
 186 (15:28:21) joanie: Heh. We know what makes it break. *grin* But that would be good to have for passing along
 187 (15:28:46) bnitz: aleiva: I don't understand the question.
 188 (15:29:04) aleiva: bnitz: you use ldtp for make and replay the test
 189 (15:29:06) aleiva: bnitz: ok?
 190 (15:29:15) bnitz: Bryen:Yes but I intend to make the tests follow a standard which would allow them to be used as accerciser plugins. (It remains to be seen whether this is possible)
 191 (15:29:16) aleiva: bnitz: but what you use for a11y validation?
 192 (15:29:26) aleiva: bnitz: at-spi?
 193 (15:29:44) aleiva: bnitz: how you check that the a11y is valid for application X
 194 (15:29:45) bnitz: aleiva:pyatspi + ldtp.
 195 (15:30:04) Bryen: bnitz, Awesome. It would be great if we can convert that down the line to a published document for various devs and distros to refer to on a permanent basis
 196 (15:30:26) bnitz: aleiva: pyatspi + ldtp with accerciser providing the test framework.
 197 (15:30:34) bnitz: Bryen:Yes
 198 (15:30:56) joanie: I would also like to see some sort of never-ending GNOME Goal related to using this framework once it is fully implemented
 199 (15:31:05) aleiva: bnitz: is it released somewhere?
 200 (15:31:12) joanie: We lose so, so, so much time due to regressions in other people's modules
 201 (15:31:14) bnitz: The kinds of things to be tested, do all widgets have labels, can focusable items attain focus from tab/arrow.
 202 (15:31:34) shaunm: is this something that can be completely automated? like a server constantly running tests?
 203 (15:31:40) joanie: bnitz: do we get the correct events, do those events contain the correct information?
 204 (15:31:41) bnitz: aleiva: No, it's just getting started.
 205 (15:31:45) aleiva: bnitz: ah ok
 206 (15:32:07) fer: so we have a continuous build of GNOME somewhere? build brigade?
 207 (15:32:13) bnitz: shaunm: That's the easy part ;-) Actually for gnome community it will probably be automated based on nightly builds.
 208 (15:32:31) fer: we could add this tests under the glib/gtk testing framework and get then running on those build servers
 209 (15:32:32) aleiva: fer: AFAIK there's some movement towards LDTP
 210 (15:32:46) bnitz: shaunm: We also intend to have our own tinderbox based on sourcejuicer which will build and test based on putbacks.
 211 (15:32:50) joanie: bnitz: One of the things I would like to do during this session is go over everything that we each think needs testing to be sure each of our lists match
 212 (15:32:53) aleiva: fer: ah, CI
 213 (15:32:53) shaunm: I could pull that sort of information into blip, once it's running
 214 (15:33:15) fer: I would prefer having them integrated "upstream"
 215 (15:33:17) bnitz: ideally we could trace failures to putback but practical granularity depends on hw resources and ssuch.
 216 (15:33:27) bnitz: joanie:Yes that's an excellent idea.
 217 (15:33:38) fer: so non a11y developers realize about a11y failures
 218 (15:33:59) joanie: fer: Indeed. And an electrical shock gets administered. :-P
 219 (15:34:06) bnitz: exactly.
 220 (15:34:17) fer: http://live.gnome.org/BuildBrigade
 221 (15:34:22) Bryen: dang... I just had to backspace cuz joanie said just what I was bout to say (re: electric shock)
 222 (15:34:32) joanie: Bryen: spooky
 223 (15:34:36) fer: we need to get that build.gnome.org working however :)
 224 (15:34:45) bnitz: fer:Thanks.
 225 (15:35:16) joanie: So anyhoo bnitz, what would be extremely awesome is if you could fill out some sort of agenda/outline on: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010Schedule
 226 (15:35:40) bnitz: joanie:O.K. I'll do that
 227 (15:35:48) joanie: thanks bnitz.
 228 (15:35:50) ***Bryen knows he still needs to fill out his outreach stuff there too. And will talk to slee about it in the coming week to nail it down
 229 (15:35:58) shaunm: so, hey, I know I was talking about user a11y docs for aegis
 230 (15:35:59) joanie: Bryen: cool, thank you
 231 (15:36:17) joanie: shaunm: yes?
 232 (15:36:21) slee: Bryen: ok with me
 233 (15:36:22) shaunm: but could we also do better at providing developer docs for making more accessible apps?
 234 (15:36:31) joanie: shaunm: indeed
 235 (15:37:02) joanie: shaunm: I'd also like to see a Best Practices guide written up
 236 (15:37:08) shaunm: yeah
 237 (15:37:13) Bryen: shaunm, That's definitely a long-term goal we should be working on. Problem, as always with docs, is people start to work on it then the move on and the docs get outdated. Seems a never-ending cycle :-(
 238 (15:37:14) bnitz: shaunm:Such docs would help me decide what tests we need.
 239 (15:37:26) shaunm: Bryen: story of my life...
 240 (15:37:41) Bryen: For me in Marketing, it would be ideal to have those to point to when I'm talking to people about a11y
 241 (15:37:46) joanie: bnitz: And that's why (lacking such docs) we should include it in the session
 242 (15:37:56) bnitz: I have a few generic tests regarding focus traversal, labels .
 243 (15:38:34) bnitz: joanie:actually let me cut and paste from my intro and you guys can add or subtract:
 244 (15:38:35) joanie: bnitz: are biggest problems are bogus events, events with the incorrect details and any_data, etc.
 245 (15:38:41) bnitz: What makes an application inaccessible?
 246 (15:39:02) bnitz: Missing labels
 247 (15:39:02) bnitz: Widgets which can't receive tab focus
 248 (15:39:02) bnitz: Custom widgets which don't subclass Atk
 249 (15:39:02) bnitz: Confusing/Illogical tab order
 250 (15:39:02) bnitz: UI components which don't respond to theme
 251 (15:39:03) joanie: (oh and broken accessible hierarchies)
 252 (15:39:03) bnitz: Ambiguous association between label and widget
 253 (15:39:45) joanie: bnitz: Also Custom widgets who implement Atk incorrectly
 254 (15:39:46) bnitz: Not sure if I have that custom widget item described properly.
 255 (15:39:48) slee: lack of sensible key access
 256 (15:40:09) clown: bnitz: lack of keyboard nav and activation of widets
 257 (15:40:15) bnitz: slee:Yes. Sensible might be hard to automate but if we can define it...
 258 (15:40:38) joanie: bnitz: And seriously, bogus events, bogus event details, bogus or absent any_data
 259 (15:40:49) slee: could have tab + enter as minimum
 260 (15:40:52) joanie: perhaps choose a different word for 'bogus'
 261 (15:40:59) Bryen: I have a "booth" question to ask where appropriate here
 262 (15:41:06) bnitz: joanie:I'd like to see some examples of this. I don't know enough about it but it sounds important.
 263 (15:41:16) joanie: bnitz: you and I should talk
 264 (15:41:19) joanie: :-)
 265 (15:41:27) joanie: bnitz: I *live* bogus events
 266 (15:41:32) bnitz: joanie: Yes.
 267 (15:41:39) joanie: bnitz: So how about this for a plan:
 268 (15:41:49) joanie: 1. Add your proposed agenda for the session to the wiki
 269 (15:41:55) joanie: 2. We can all look over it
 270 (15:42:05) joanie: 3. We can tweak *if* needed
 271 (15:42:14) joanie: 4. We will have an extremely productive session
 272 (15:42:33) bnitz: Good idea.
 273 (15:42:35) joanie: Those of us from the AT module side (e.g. Orca) should come to the session prepared to demonstrate instances of problems
 274 (15:42:47) joanie: and what their consequences for the AT and users is
 275 (15:42:59) joanie: so that bnitz can find a way to add it to his testing framework
 276 (15:43:10) joanie: and shaunm (and we) can document it
 277 (15:43:35) bnitz: joanie: Good plan.
 278 (15:43:37) heidi: Yes! And please let me know where it is documented.
 279 (15:43:45) joanie: heidi: And when :-)
 280 (15:43:48) shaunm: I'd love if people could demo stuff for me. makes it easier for me to write.
 281 (15:43:49) heidi: I'll point students to it for a learning experience.
 282 (15:43:51) heidi: Right! And when.
 283 (15:44:01) joanie: the reality is right now much of the documentation is an oral tradition
 284 (15:44:27) joanie: I am looking forward to shaunm's documentation session because I would love to find/make time to sit down and write all this stuff out
 285 (15:44:35) Bryen: shaunm, that's another thing. Hopefully in the not-too-distant future (maybe even at AEGIS), I'll be able to do some user videos for demo purposes
 286 (15:44:37) joanie: rather than merely complaining about it and filing bugs
 287 (15:44:52) joanie: shaunm: We have a demo session planned for ....
 288 (15:44:54) ***joanie looks
 289 (15:45:05) joanie: The 4th
 290 (15:45:06) joanie: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010Schedule
 291 (15:45:11) bnitz: Peter had some interesting ideas on using Orca to highlight changes in the accessible tree. But I don't know how we would determine which of these differences are bugs and which are features.
 292 (15:45:13) joanie: After bnitz's testing session
 293 (15:45:21) joanie: bnitz: heh
 294 (15:45:49) joanie: So.... moving on with 15 minutes left to go
 295 (15:45:55) joanie: Bryen: booth. Floor is yours
 296 (15:46:20) Bryen: Question I have regarding handing out media at the booth. I've been thinking about minting about 150 to give out based on Vinux. What do you guys think?
 297 (15:46:30) Bryen: sorry... guys + gals
 298 (15:48:10) Bryen: ok no thoughts. alrighty I'll figure this one out myself then :-)
 299 (15:48:38) clown: what do you mean by "media", Bryen ?
 300 (15:49:04) Bryen: clown, CDs/DVDs
 301 (15:49:19) clown: okay. what's on the CDs?
 302 (15:49:26) clown: a Vinux distro?
 303 (15:49:48) Bryen: Clown, basically give out a distro for people to try. But I was thinking I'd like to give out Vinux cuz its a11y-centric and this is an a11y event
 304 (15:49:56) fer: we can put on the CDs also API and I singing "Alejandro" in rockabilly style :)
 305 (15:49:59) clown: makes sense.
 306 (15:50:14) joanie: fer: That would be teh awesome
 307 (15:50:14) shaunm: Bryen: you can do it as a live CD, yes?
 308 (15:50:21) Bryen: I just want to be sure everyone's cool with the choice of Vinux before I go through the trouble of minting them
 309 (15:50:41) clown: just out of curiousity, would vinux run gnome shell?
 310 (15:50:46) Bryen: shaunm, I believe they have liveCD iso's yes. I'm still waiting for the vinux guys to get back to me with some artwork so I can print out the labels for it
 311 (15:50:47) clown: s/would/could/
 312 (15:51:12) Bryen: clown, I don't know. We'd have to ask the vinux guys. I haven't used it
 313 (15:51:19) shaunm: Bryen: ok, cool. I just think very few people will bother actually installing an OS to play with it
 314 (15:51:42) fer: do they have live-CDs?
 315 (15:51:57) clown: Bryen: just thinking out loud, but we could put ATs that we are working on that could be used as "demos".
 316 (15:52:02) Bryen: shaunm, Right. Although these days, more distros are giving out Live versions integrated on DVD installers. So its getting more moot lately :-)
 317 (15:52:20) Bryen: clown, Like we did at CSUN?
 318 (15:52:32) Bryen: That's the plan, Stan :-)
 319 (15:52:51) clown: For user testing of gs-mag, we put together a live-DVD (Fedora) with gs-mag and Orca. Was that used at CSUN too?
 320 (15:53:06) clown: who is Stan?
 321 (15:53:21) Bryen: Not sure what OS was used on the machine given to us by GNOME.
 322 (15:53:41) Bryen: and whatever that machine was, it won't be the same one as we're using a European kit this time
 323 (15:53:54) Bryen: clown, You're Stan, ain't ya? :-)
 324 (15:53:57) clown: Peter may have supplied it for CSUN, not sure.
 325 (15:54:15) Bryen: Supplied what?
 326 (15:54:22) clown: Bryen, hmm I new nick name....
 327 (15:54:33) clown: the live DVD containing gs-mag and orca
 328 (15:54:46) Bryen: ahh not sure. I wasn't part of the set-up
 329 (15:55:09) clown: or it could have been Ben Konrath (since it was he who made the live DVD).
 330 (15:55:16) Bryen: But we'll figure that out once we get there. we have several days to figure that out and its premature when we don't even know what machine we get
 331 (15:55:28) clown: okay. as I said, just thinking out loud.
 332 (15:55:37) Bryen: :-)
 333 (15:55:48) slee: sounds like a plan
 334 (15:56:01) Bryen: I also plan to get some nice vinyl banners printed up. Looking at some artwork now though
 335 (15:56:19) Bryen: none of that "Printed banners on letter-sized paper" crap we had at CSUN!
 336 (15:56:28) clown: your banners should include pictures of fer and API holding microphones...
 337 (15:56:37) clown: not
 338 (15:56:41) slee: heh
 339 (15:56:41) fer: clown: do you play guitar?
 340 (15:56:51) joanie: So y'all, we have 5 minutes left and one more agenda item. Though I'm not sure how much we have to say about it. So....
 341 (15:56:57) Bryen: fer, he's a clown! He plays the ukelele!
 342 (15:56:58) clown: nope. jaws harp?
 343 (15:57:06) clown: twang, twang
 344 (15:57:06) joanie: Volunteers: GNU's got them; can we provide them with the support they need?
 345 (15:57:18) slee: ouch, my teeth
 346 (15:57:27) fer: what kind of support?
 347 (15:57:33) Bryen: GNU's got what?
 348 (15:57:38) joanie: fer: hard to say
 349 (15:57:41) slee: eh?
 350 (15:57:41) joanie: Bryen: Volunteers
 351 (15:57:59) joanie: Bryen: This is that thing you stepped forward to coordinate
 352 (15:58:01) joanie: :-)
 353 (15:58:02) Bryen: oh volunteers/interns to help out here?
 354 (15:58:10) joanie: Bryen: right
 355 (15:58:18) Bryen: ahh Professor You hasn't come back to me yet. RMS did connect us though
 356 (15:58:23) Bryen: so we have no details yet.
 357 (15:58:27) joanie: see, the problem is GNU is recruiting volunteers
 358 (15:58:35) joanie: which normally would be an awesome thing
 359 (15:58:57) Bryen: Volunteers should nto be recruited before a task is identified. That was the faux pas here :-)
 360 (15:58:58) joanie: but recruiting volunteers who in some cases will be working on GNOME a11y modules they know little about
 361 (15:59:09) joanie: Bryen: (We never asked for this help)
 362 (15:59:17) Bryen: Precisely
 363 (15:59:18) joanie: Bryen: (It is being provided on our behalf)
 364 (15:59:36) joanie: Bryen: (including things which some of us might feel is undesirable)
 365 (15:59:39) joanie: but anyhoo
 366 (15:59:54) ***slee hmms
 367 (15:59:54) joanie: let's say we get these awesome volunteers
 368 (16:00:03) joanie: and they need hand-holding to contribute
 369 (16:00:13) joanie: do we have time to provide the hand-holding?
 370 (16:00:17) joanie: Personally, I do not
 371 (16:00:21) Bryen: joanie, Let's just table this question for now. Each case is a case-by-case basis of what the volunteer/intern/whatever can do and offers to do and I try to match up agreeable folks on our side as the time comes.
 372 (16:00:32) joanie: Bryen: fair enough
 373 (16:00:37) ***joanie is just going through the agenda
 374 (16:00:45) ***joanie is trying to be a good doobie :-)
 375 (16:01:03) Bryen: folks, please don't light up joanie just cuz she said she's a doobie!
 376 (16:01:21) ***clown joanie is a good chair
 377 (16:01:21) joanie: Instead please pass me the ^H^H^H
 378 (16:01:24) clown: person
 379 (16:01:51) joanie: alrighty then. 1 minute over. Any parting shots?
 380 (16:01:55) Bryen: yes
 381 (16:02:01) clown: yes
 382 (16:02:09) clown: but go ahead Bryen
 383 (16:02:19) Bryen: I'd like to propose taht somehow we find a way to further streamline these meetings. We're getting too bogged down in details and it makes the meetings cumbersome
 384 (16:02:39) joanie: Bryen: Do you have suggestions?
 385 (16:02:52) Bryen: a high-level status report should be sufficient for these types of meetigns, and further detailed stuff taken afterwards.
 386 (16:02:56) ***slee has to go
 387 (16:02:59) slee left the room (quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.11/20100701023340]).
 388 (16:03:12) Bryen: For example, all the aegis stuff. Just get someone to be coordinator of all that and be the poker to individual contributors of AEGIS
 389 (16:03:33) Bryen: The AEGIS discussion shouldn't take more than 10-15 mins in a a11y meeting here.
 390 (16:03:53) Bryen: As we're an A11y team, not all about AEGIS. :-)
 391 (16:04:22) joanie: It would be interesting to go through the entire chat log and see where all time is spent (and lost)
 392 (16:04:30) joanie: including idle and irrelevant chit-chat
 393 (16:04:40) Bryen: we should set time limits on topics
 394 (16:04:47) clown: although it could be argued that aegis is a major factor for the next month, then not so much thereafter
 395 (16:05:18) clown: still, a 10-15 min time limit seems about right
 396 (16:05:19) joanie: Speaking just for myself (visual learning disability), I find it really difficult to visually follow a bunch of scrolling text. I can do it, but as I sort through things, having to visually eliminate "noise" is hard
 397 (16:05:22) Bryen: clown, But its not major factor for everyone, plus you can still whittle that down. The specifics and planning etc should be done in a coordination manner
 398 (16:06:00) clown: sure
 399 (16:06:11) joanie: And I cannot help but wonder how much more efficient these meetings would be if we could all just stay focused on the topic at hand
 400 (16:06:16) Bryen: joanie, its not your visual learning disability, there's definitely a chaos to the way we're doing things. But its a learning process for the team :-)
 401 (16:06:18) joanie: and not jump in with other topics
 402 (16:06:25) joanie: until a given topic is complete
 403 (16:06:48) joanie: So I propose the following:
 404 (16:07:00) joanie: 1. We do as Bryen suggested and try to cap things at 15 minutes
 405 (16:07:11) joanie: 2. I will be a b*tch about chit chat :-)
 406 (16:07:23) joanie: and after slapping people enough times :-)
 407 (16:07:28) joanie: perhaps that will stop
 408 (16:07:40) joanie: and the two combined strategies will streamline the meetings sufficiently
 409 (16:07:42) joanie: thoughts?
 410 (16:07:44) Bryen: its not the chit chat that's draggin things down IMO
 411 (16:07:59) Bryen: its the amount of details within the topics we discuss. It's not necessary for a meeting like ours
 412 (16:08:21) joanie: Bryen: Then how about you be the one who jumps in and complains when things get too detailed?
 413 (16:08:29) Bryen: sure
 414 (16:08:34) Bryen: I'm good at complaining
 415 (16:08:43) joanie: We can take the pavlovian approach
 416 (16:08:58) Bryen: am I the dog or pavlov?
 417 (16:09:05) Bryen: wait, don't answer!
 418 (16:09:07) joanie: arguably both
 419 (16:09:13) Bryen: dang! She answered!
 420 (16:09:18) joanie: pavlov when you complain; the dog when you chit chat
 421 (16:09:51) Bryen: ok clown had a topic?
 422 (16:09:51) joanie: anyhoo, clown you had a parting shot?
 423 (16:10:33) clown: yes, but it's not necessarily for the meeting. those interested in some thought about gs-mag can hang around a while?
 424 (16:10:52) joanie: sure clown
 425 (16:15:01) joanie: any other parting shots 10 minutes over?
 426 (16:15:03) clown: actually gs-mag, GConf, Gsettings, and Orca (a twisty little maze)
 427 (16:15:22) ***clown waits for other parting shot to clear
 428 (16:15:34) Bryen: CLEAR!
 429 (16:15:35) joanie: Okay, I'm declaring this meeting over. Thanks y'all for attending!