**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jul 22 08:16:04 2010 Jul 22 08:16:04 * Now talking on #a11y Jul 22 08:16:21 hey API Jul 22 08:16:48 * API I know it late, you can start throwing the tomatoes Jul 22 08:17:11 API: Would 07:00 UTC be easier for y'all in Spain? Jul 22 08:17:27 joanie, ?¿ Jul 22 08:17:39 is this time too earlier? Jul 22 08:17:42 ah Jul 22 08:17:43 too early Jul 22 08:17:44 no Jul 22 08:17:46 its fine Jul 22 08:17:52 you have more problems Jul 22 08:18:06 yeah, but 2 AM versus 3 AM is all the same Jul 22 08:19:52 well joanie told me that nothing relevant has happened Jul 22 08:19:57 so we can start Jul 22 08:20:34 as in the previous weekly meeting Jul 22 08:20:47 main topic is funding Jul 22 08:21:03 have you all applied to http://live.gnome.org/Travel? Jul 22 08:21:16 I mean the ones requiring funding Jul 22 08:22:00 Not yet. Was going to do that today. Hoping that it isn't too late. Jul 22 08:22:50 mgorse: since it's just baaaaarely Thursday, you're good Jul 22 08:23:04 the main reason of this "hurry" is in order to have a good approximation of the funding required Jul 22 08:23:11 end of business day East Coast would be ideal Jul 22 08:23:43 speaking of which KeWang did you apply to the foundation for funding for travel? Jul 22 08:23:49 anyway I will talk with Chema and German Poo these days, as German is here Jul 22 08:23:52 due guadec es Jul 22 08:23:53 (and do you know if Li did) Jul 22 08:24:09 * danigm_out is now known as danigm Jul 22 08:24:21 API German is travel committee? Jul 22 08:24:42 joanie: li and I are filling the application form right now Jul 22 08:24:50 joanie, yes afaik Jul 22 08:24:55 * joanie laughs Jul 22 08:24:59 Current Committee Jul 22 08:24:59 * Jul 22 08:24:59 Emily Chen Jul 22 08:24:59 * Rosanna Yuen Jul 22 08:24:59 * Jul 22 08:24:59 Bharath Acharya Jul 22 08:24:59 * Jul 22 08:24:59 Chema Casanova Jul 22 08:24:59 * Jul 22 08:24:59 Germán Póo-Caamaño Jul 22 08:25:00 thanks KeWang :-) Jul 22 08:26:04 API thanks. So.... to confirm, you'll approach the Travel Committee to find out a) who all has officially applied, b) how much has been requested total, and c) how much we have total to spend? Jul 22 08:26:47 * dpellicer (~dpellicer@14.Red-88-26-177.staticIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #a11y Jul 22 08:26:57 joanie, yes I will try to talk with German and with Chema Jul 22 08:27:03 thanks much!! Jul 22 08:27:49 anyway, in theory all people noted down here Jul 22 08:27:54 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/Hackfesthttp://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010AEGIS2010 Jul 22 08:27:55 ups Jul 22 08:27:57 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010 Jul 22 08:28:10 as requiring funding, Jul 22 08:28:27 should be applied already Jul 22 08:28:30 right ;) Jul 22 08:28:32 indeed Jul 22 08:28:37 but that doesn't mean they will ahve Jul 22 08:31:04 hmm Bryen its not here Jul 22 08:31:22 as we already talked about http://live.gnome.org/Travel Jul 22 08:31:40 the other funding new is that Bryen started to talk with some Jul 22 08:31:50 distributions Jul 22 08:32:01 and they seemed interested in help with funding Jul 22 08:35:01 so people, anything else about funding in your minds? Jul 22 08:35:13 not really Jul 22 08:35:15 Other than.... Jul 22 08:35:41 Fer's company is handling document production (braille, large print, electronic format) for the booth stuff Jul 22 08:35:47 so that's one less thing to worry about Jul 22 08:36:04 And Fer's company can come off the list of places to hit up for money ;-) Jul 22 08:37:01 ok Jul 22 08:37:33 well, then I suppose that we will have some time to the "item review" Jul 22 08:37:38 btw Jul 22 08:37:46 the which? Jul 22 08:37:47 most apps are migrating themselves Jul 22 08:38:00 joanie, http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3 item review Jul 22 08:38:11 most apps are migrating to gtk3.0 Jul 22 08:38:12 thanks Jul 22 08:38:23 ie, gnome-shell and so on Jul 22 08:38:33 joanie, any plans related with orca? Jul 22 08:38:37 crap I guess I should look at that gtk3.0 for Orca then Jul 22 08:38:39 heh Jul 22 08:38:43 I'll look at it Jul 22 08:38:44 or this is affected by the python bindings? Jul 22 08:38:59 to be honest, I don't know yet Jul 22 08:39:20 still trying to get the regression tests in order (in general, and for AT-SPI2 which I started looking at) Jul 22 08:39:54 clown sent an email a while ago talking about having taken a look at pygi Jul 22 08:40:30 mgorse, to gnome-accessibility? Jul 22 08:40:31 * joanie wonders if tasking aleiva with this would result in him killing her Jul 22 08:40:34 a private one? Jul 22 08:41:26 anyhoo, one way or another we'll look at the situation for Orca w.r.t. Gtk 3.0 Jul 22 08:42:28 * jpwhiting_ (~jeremy@97-126-244-12.slkc.qwest.net) has joined #a11y Jul 22 08:42:31 joanie, ok Jul 22 08:42:40 I guess we could write something Jul 22 08:42:47 here http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3 Jul 22 08:42:52 but not sure in which section Jul 22 08:43:16 API: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2010-June/msg00086.html Jul 22 08:43:56 mgorse, thanks Jul 22 08:44:12 In fact, I started that thread Jul 22 08:44:14 http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2010-June/msg00082.html Jul 22 08:44:15 :P Jul 22 08:44:27 anyway Jul 22 08:44:50 this pigi goal Jul 22 08:44:54 is just for gtk3.0? Jul 22 08:44:56 I mean Jul 22 08:45:20 if an application is still using gtk2.0 it also requires to do the migration? Jul 22 08:48:04 well it seems that nodoby knows ;) Jul 22 08:48:16 * jpwhiting has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds) Jul 22 08:48:29 anyway, I bet that this also affects other apps Jul 22 08:48:33 eeejay, you here? Jul 22 08:48:43 any plans related with gtk30 and pygi? Jul 22 08:52:36 well it seems that eeejay is not here Jul 22 08:53:22 moving to other thing Jul 22 08:53:40 well after a meeting with some linux foundation Jul 22 08:53:46 Chris Hofstader Jul 22 08:53:57 has sent a mail to gnu-accessibility list Jul 22 08:54:00 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/accessibility/2010-07/msg00048.html Jul 22 08:54:11 calling for a call to arms Jul 22 08:54:26 I have the feeling that he came to the wrong conclusion of the meeting Jul 22 08:54:43 as he pointed that the main problem is "orca performance" Jul 22 08:54:44 how do you mean? Jul 22 08:54:50 I know that it is related Jul 22 08:54:53 oh that lol Jul 22 08:55:03 but I though that the main problem was at-spi2 performance Jul 22 08:55:17 I think it is Jul 22 08:55:21 I tried it the other day Jul 22 08:55:36 and Orca is a considerably more performant with CORBA Jul 22 08:56:41 joanie, mgorse did you made any kind of measures? Jul 22 08:56:54 something like orca-corba vs orca-dbus? Jul 22 08:57:02 with relevant apps, Jul 22 08:57:09 like firefox or openoffice Jul 22 08:57:11 nothing quantifiable yet, just observations Jul 22 08:57:22 It's quite slow for me in gnome panel Jul 22 08:57:28 like arrowing from menu item to menu item Jul 22 08:57:42 I am also seeing indications of possible event floods Jul 22 08:58:03 joanie: Wouldn't that be because the panel still uses CORBA and you are using dbus for at-spi? Jul 22 08:58:18 TheMuso: I dunno Jul 22 08:58:21 i.e 2 different IPCs being used? Jul 22 08:58:28 TheMuso: This is all new stuff for me Jul 22 08:58:36 would the same be true for gtk-demo? Jul 22 08:58:36 heh ok. Jul 22 08:58:43 Don't know. Jul 22 08:58:51 because gtk-demo (from Maverick) suffers the same fate Jul 22 08:59:11 I just started looking at this myself Jul 22 08:59:53 Well I have another interesting issue here. Terminal tabs take about a half second to switch between Jul 22 08:59:58 so anyway, I'm going to go over the regression tests and get them running and work with Mike to solve whatever problems are keeping them from passing Jul 22 09:00:03 And I also have accessiblity/at-spi focus issues when switching windows/panels Jul 22 09:00:15 TheMuso: is this with Orca running or without? Jul 22 09:00:30 TheMuso: This is with at-spi-corba, right? Jul 22 09:00:31 joanie: With and without, haven't tried with at-spi not running however. Jul 22 09:00:39 mgorse: yes Jul 22 09:01:10 The latest GNOME pieces in maverick, at least so far as a11y is concerned, for corba Jul 22 09:01:47 Doesn't that rather complicate what we need to accomplish? Jul 22 09:02:40 Well, it was decided early on that maverick wouldn't be switching to dbus at-spi by default Jul 22 09:02:41 joanie, what do you mean? Jul 22 09:02:54 ah, about not switching Jul 22 09:03:06 API how do I get a pure dbus/non-corba environment Jul 22 09:03:13 jhbuild I guess.... Jul 22 09:03:16 (right?) Jul 22 09:03:40 joanie, to be sincere, to avoid problems with at-spi and at-spi2 fighting Jul 22 09:03:48 I have just removed at-spi-corba Jul 22 09:04:06 and I have the at-spi-dbus I compiled on jhbuild Jul 22 09:04:16 API that's what I did too on one machine Jul 22 09:04:20 I had some problems having both install Jul 22 09:04:30 * API s/install/installed Jul 22 09:04:37 but from what TheMuso is suggesting, since some stuff is still CORBA based, I don't have a pure environment Jul 22 09:05:06 Re the panel, I know there is a branch of the panel that has been rewritten to use dbus, but I don't know what state that is in. Jul 22 09:05:23 I know that the other GNOME folks in Ubuntu were going to consider it, but I am not sure whether it is still on the table. Jul 22 09:05:49 joanie, ah ok, me neither Jul 22 09:05:58 although I have installed at-spi2 Jul 22 09:06:08 some things on my environment still uses corba Jul 22 09:06:22 joanie, about TheMuso question Jul 22 09:06:38 carlos garcia campos were working on that, I guess Jul 22 09:06:43 fer talked about it, right? Jul 22 09:06:49 working on? Jul 22 09:08:11 joanie, don't know Jul 22 09:08:35 no, I mean what are you talking about? Jul 22 09:08:40 working on what? Jul 22 09:08:43 fer talked about what? Jul 22 09:08:45 :-) Jul 22 09:09:02 i also have some news for you all. There is a chance that opentts will merge back into speech-dispatcher. I am meeting with Brailcom people today, since I am in Prague for an Ubuntu/Canonical sprint. So will let everyone know how things go. Jul 22 09:09:18 interesting.... Jul 22 09:09:55 joanie, about moving the panel to dbus instead of using corba Jul 22 09:10:06 ahhh ok thanks Jul 22 09:10:42 well, people I think that we need to get some conclusions Jul 22 09:10:48 +1 Jul 22 09:10:53 as were are over 10 minutes Jul 22 09:11:17 a) people use http://live.gnome.org/Travel Jul 22 09:11:30 so we can check how money is required Jul 22 09:11:40 b) Bryen is looking for alternative funding sources Jul 22 09:11:54 c) we need to check this gtk3.0 stuff, ie on orca Jul 22 09:12:05 d) we need to check pygi stuff, it is related to gtk3.0? Jul 22 09:12:11 hi API Jul 22 09:12:34 e) Main problem on at-spi is still performance, but first regression tests Jul 22 09:12:37 eeejay, hi Jul 22 09:12:51 a last comment before closing the meeting? Jul 22 09:13:12 API, me? no sorry :) Jul 22 09:13:24 hi everyone! Jul 22 09:13:30 hey eeejay Jul 22 09:13:39 just worked on my talk for guadec Jul 22 09:13:43 eeejay: did you apply for funding for AEGIS? (you still think you can come) Jul 22 09:13:53 http://www.guadec.org/index.php/guadec/2010/paper/view/36# Jul 22 09:13:59 joanie, no Jul 22 09:14:30 no to applying or no to you can't come after all? Jul 22 09:15:08 joanie, both, unfortunately Jul 22 09:15:12 "Accessibility is all too often regarded as additional polish that is added to an application at the end of it's development cycle." Jul 22 09:15:37 * joanie thinks back to last boston summit Jul 22 09:16:36 eeejay, so, any plans on accerciser related to gtk3.0 and pygi? Jul 22 09:17:18 API, haven't worked on accerciser on a long time. i'm handing it off to someone from oracle Jul 22 09:17:27 API, so no :( Jul 22 09:17:30 eeejay: really??? Jul 22 09:17:32 who? Jul 22 09:17:52 joanie, brian nitz Jul 22 09:18:07 ah. Heard of him, don't know him Jul 22 09:18:17 ok Jul 22 09:18:31 well, 18 minutes over time Jul 22 09:18:38 night! Jul 22 09:18:44 I think that we can conclude the one hour meeting now Jul 22 09:18:45 night eeejay Jul 22 09:18:48 :-) Jul 22 09:20:23 Okay. Night. Jul 22 09:20:24 KeWang: TheMuso: mgorse: If we moved the 06:00 UTC meeting to 07:00 UTC would that work for y'all? Jul 22 09:20:57 joanie: doesn't matter to me; 7 isn't less good than 6 Jul 22 09:21:07 mgorse: that's what I told API lol Jul 22 09:21:07 Doesn't bother me, I am only in Europe this week Jul 22 09:21:46 KeWang: Since that would make it.... 15:00-16:00 in Beijing (right?) is that okay? Jul 22 09:22:45 as I told joanie, in my case it is not required Jul 22 09:22:58 API well, you're not the only one in Spain ;-) Jul 22 09:23:10 (though you were one of the ones I was thinking of) Jul 22 09:23:44 Half of the current/active GNOME a11y folks are in Spain, and API you're the only one who usually makes this meeting Jul 22 09:24:06 if we push it back to 09:00 Spain time, I think that would help Jul 22 09:24:11 (maybe not) Jul 22 09:24:15 but it can't hurt Jul 22 09:24:27 and maybe Steve Lee could come