1 (11:05:11 AM) API: people, meeting time
   2 (11:05:25 AM) fer: hello
   3 (11:05:29 AM) Pendulum: hi
   4 (11:05:29 AM) ***clown waves
   5 (11:05:37 AM) clown: happy canada day!
   6 (11:05:47 AM) korn: ***korn sits up straight, at attention
   7 (11:05:50 AM) dexem: hi all
   8 (11:05:51 AM) joanie: is it? Then happy canada day clown!
   9 (11:05:56 AM) ***API guessing if there is any irc broadcast signal
  10 (11:06:10 AM) clown: 'tis. it's a national holiday.
  11 (11:06:30 AM) API: hi korn, nice to see that you were able to come here, a long time since the last time we saw you here
  12 (11:07:01 AM) korn: Hi API. Been busy (something about submitting Oracle's 50 page comments to the U.S. Access Board's Section 508 draft update)
  13 (11:07:12 AM) Pendulum: I should probably note that I'm new and shy, but I don't bite
  14 (11:07:22 AM) Pendulum: (in fact, I'll probably be quiet for the rest of the meeting)
  15 (11:07:25 AM) API: korn, seems really boring
  16 (11:07:29 AM) API: I mean, interesting ;)
  17 (11:07:30 AM) joanie: Welcome Pendulum!
  18 (11:07:34 AM) korn: By the way, y'all might find that good to read, on a night when y ou have insomnia and can't get to sleep
  19 (11:07:52 AM) Pendulum: although, I should probably say that I'm co-head of the Ubuntu Accessibility Team which we're reviving :-)
  20 (11:07:52 AM) clown: can it be used for a pillow, korn?
  21 (11:08:00 AM) korn: A very *firm* pillow.
  22 (11:09:25 AM) API: Pendulum, reviving, so now it is a zombie Team? ;)
  23 (11:09:31 AM) API: sorry, a bad joke
  24 (11:09:46 AM) API: but good to know that there are new people that can work on a11y
  25 (11:09:50 AM) ***joanie chuckles
  26 (11:09:50 AM) Pendulum: API: well, you know, zombies need to use computers too. And it's really hard when you're dead :P
  27 (11:10:13 AM) Pendulum: I'm non-technical, but happy to help out whereever I can
  28 (11:10:15 AM) API: we can start asking you about plans for the next Ubuntu release
  29 (11:10:21 AM) API: Maverick AFAIR
  30 (11:10:21 AM) ***clown ponders what kinds of AT zombies use.
  31 (11:10:38 AM) API: what at-spi they are planning to integrate?
  32 (11:11:19 AM) Pendulum: API: TheMuso is the better person to talk to about that. I really am the outreach and documentation side of things with no real devel knowledge
  33 (11:12:33 AM) API: ok, we can ask that again later
  34 (11:12:49 AM) ***API checking tentative agenda
  35 (11:13:04 AM) API: first piont is AEGIS
  36 (11:13:08 AM) API: s/piont/point
  37 (11:13:13 AM) API: funding
  38 (11:13:27 AM) API: well, Bryen sent a mail saying that he is not coming,
  39 (11:13:53 AM) korn: API - Bryen is the one putting together our application (er... plea) to the GNOME Foundation for funding?
  40 (11:14:19 AM) API: korn, yes, AFAIK
  41 (11:14:32 AM) API: he also said that before picking foundation
  42 (11:14:43 AM) API: we wanted a) a approximation of people going
  43 (11:14:47 AM) korn: I didn't see anything from him about that in his e-mail telling us he wouldn't be here..
  44 (11:14:51 AM) API: b) check funding alternatives
  45 (11:15:33 AM) API: korn, yes, I know, he just commented hfoss/marketing
  46 (11:15:41 AM) API: he is also checking that
  47 (11:15:52 AM) API: we could sent a mail
  48 (11:16:06 AM) API: next AEGIS subpoint is agenda
  49 (11:16:09 AM) korn: I am concerned about time. We are running out of it, particularly for affordable fares to Europe.
  50 (11:17:39 AM) API: korn, yeah, probably we should use current information and plea (er talk) with foundation soon
  51 (11:18:00 AM) API: lets try to coordinate that with Bryen this week via email
  52 (11:18:03 AM) korn: At least to give them a head's up about our rough numbers, etc.
  53 (11:18:06 AM) API: and decide during that
  54 (11:18:22 AM) fer: we have no news about CENATIC funding
  55 (11:19:27 AM) API: fer, AFAIK gnome-hispano has already sent all the paperwork required, right?
  56 (11:19:31 AM) fer: yup
  57 (11:19:50 AM) API: ok, so lets wait
  58 (11:20:09 AM) API: as peter korn said, we can send foundation a rough estimation
  59 (11:20:29 AM) API: lets decide this week using email, as Bryen probably has something to say
  60 (11:20:49 AM) API: about agenda, as you all know joanie uploaded in the page the current draft of the agenda
  61 (11:20:59 AM) ***clown looks
  62 (11:21:02 AM) API: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/HackfestAEGIS2010
  63 (11:21:35 AM) API: if you miss something feel free to propose on the list, so we could rearrange it
  64 (11:22:27 AM) korn: I know there is some question about how much time to devote to the testing discussion. I hope we can do a lot about it; but I'm waiting to hear back from a key Oracle engineer on that topic (who is on vacation for a week...).
  65 (11:22:51 AM) joanie: korn: when do you think we'll know something?
  66 (11:22:59 AM) korn: I'm hoping within a week.
  67 (11:23:12 AM) korn: And I'm hoping it'll be a rich and tasty session.
  68 (11:23:15 AM) joanie: cool. And I'll also ping Shaun re documentation day
  69 (11:24:04 AM) joanie: Since I've jumped in.... API mind if I continue?
  70 (11:24:24 AM) API: joanie, go on, you have the scepter now
  71 (11:24:33 AM) joanie: Juanje is back and looking for hotels for us. For starters, it turns out there is an existing list which was created for a GNOME Hispano meeting:
  72 (11:24:40 AM) joanie: Spanish: http://www.es.gnome.org/Eventos/EncuentroSevilla2010/Alojamiento
  73 (11:24:46 AM) joanie: Google translated: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=es&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://www.es.gnome.org/Eventos/EncuentroSevilla2010/Alojamiento
  74 (11:25:03 AM) joanie: Apparently those places are not far from the venue, but they're at the center of the city. So Juanje look for something closer to the venue.
  75 (11:25:12 AM) joanie: But we can get an idea of cost from that list
  76 (11:25:19 AM) joanie: (i.e. when approaching the Board for funding)
  77 (11:25:28 AM) ***joanie is done
  78 (11:25:53 AM) fer: well, depending on the after conference activities it would make sense to stay closer to the center and just take the bus from/to the venue :)
  79 (11:26:08 AM) joanie: heh I like how you think fer
  80 (11:26:18 AM) joanie: It's all about the apres-conference for me ;-)
  81 (11:26:46 AM) korn: Recommendations I've heard is that it is better to not be right near the conference facilities (which means, the university)
  82 (11:27:05 AM) korn: I was talked out of that, and into staying closer to the city center (the Macarena in my case).
  83 (11:27:33 AM) joanie: so it looks like Juanje's already doing the right thing and I should just let him do it. :-)
  84 (11:27:51 AM) API: any reason for avoid being near the conference facilities?
  85 (11:28:24 AM) fer: because the university is far from anything else
  86 (11:28:37 AM) fer: and probably they dont have many hotels on that area
  87 (11:29:05 AM) korn: API - that's the advice I was given, which echos what fer is telling us -> better to not stay right near the University
  88 (11:29:05 AM) API: fer, ok, thanks
  89 (11:29:48 AM) API: fer, korn ok, it similar to Coruña case, for the people coming to GUADEC-es
  90 (11:30:54 AM) API: in the same way, korn and joanie had recently a meeting to ensure proper rooms for the hackfest
  91 (11:31:13 AM) API: there are any problem here?
  92 (11:31:20 AM) joanie: I don't think so
  93 (11:31:23 AM) korn: API - I don't have word back yet (since our meeting yesterday) about the request for a second room on 7th & 8th.
  94 (11:31:34 AM) korn: Should hear back soon. We do have the one room for certain.
  95 (11:31:52 AM) korn: And it is a large room. Plenty of space to stretch out, play basketball, etc.
  96 (11:32:02 AM) korn: (no, it isn't in the gym!)
  97 (11:32:16 AM) ***fer wants a basketball game. Soccer is for guadec guys :)
  98 (11:32:19 AM) API: korn, well we basically need power supply and net
  99 (11:32:29 AM) clown: basketball nets?
 100 (11:32:35 AM) ***clown apologizes
 101 (11:32:39 AM) API: :P
 102 (11:32:41 AM) API: wifi net
 103 (11:32:53 AM) korn: We should have WiFi everywhere. For power - let's start with a count of folks, and then we can ask for the requisite number of power strips.
 104 (11:33:02 AM) korn: Also I presume a projector and screen.
 105 (11:33:49 AM) API: ok thanks
 106 (11:33:56 AM) API: well, anything else about AEGIS?
 107 (11:34:07 AM) joanie: not from me
 108 (11:34:25 AM) joanie: unless korn wants to talk about the TTS thing?
 109 (11:34:43 AM) korn: Nope. I don't want to speak, via TTS or otherwise :-)
 110 (11:35:03 AM) korn: [reality is there are still some questions on our side I'm trying to work through]
 111 (11:35:26 AM) joanie: (okay, and I still don't think it's a GNOME thing. But we should discuss if you'd like.)
 112 (11:36:00 AM) API: ok, lets put that on a idle as well, and move to next point
 113 (11:36:04 AM) ***API checking
 114 (11:36:12 AM) API: hmm, HFOSS Outreach
 115 (11:36:17 AM) API: slee and Bryen are not here
 116 (11:36:32 AM) API: so most of the questions will be still there for the next meeting
 117 (11:36:40 AM) korn: API, all: if there is nothing else you need me for today, I'll head off to other things...
 118 (11:36:57 AM) joanie: API Bryen did have a couple of answers in his email
 119 (11:37:00 AM) API: well, you can give your opinion in my next question ;)
 120 (11:37:14 AM) API: what do you think about the booth on CSUN?
 121 (11:37:32 AM) API: AFAIK most of the people agree with a booth
 122 (11:37:39 AM) API: but not sure about a new hackfest there
 123 (11:38:37 AM) API: joanie, yes, these last weeks a lot of people answer meeting questions by mail, probably we should add a section "offline answers" on the minutes ;)
 124 (11:38:48 AM) joanie: I can do that.
 125 (11:38:51 AM) API: people, thoughts about the next CSUN?
 126 (11:39:27 AM) joanie: API I think that what we decided last week made sense. (I wish you had been there.) Do you feel differently about the conclusion?
 127 (11:40:35 AM) korn: At this point I don't think we'll be wanting to do a Hackfest in March. That could change. I wasn't at the booth much, but it looked like it was hopping and that there is increasing interst in FLOSS a11y.
 128 (11:40:41 AM) API: no, just reading this sentence on the tentative agenda
 129 (11:40:43 AM) API: "Are we all set with respect to the board securing us a booth at CSUN 2011? "
 130 (11:40:59 AM) ***API not written by me, so I thought that this question was still on the air
 131 (11:41:03 AM) joanie: API: And by "all set" (since I put that there).... What I meant was:
 132 (11:41:13 AM) joanie: Did Bryen (or eeejay) get the Board to pay for the booth
 133 (11:41:32 AM) korn: [See y'all later]
 134 (11:41:33 AM) korn left the room.
 135 (11:41:52 AM) ***joanie needs to be more precise and less joanie-ish in her agenda items :-)
 136 (11:41:57 AM) API: joanie, ok, I should avoid to just skim questions
 137 (11:42:06 AM) joanie: no it's my bad. I should be more clear.
 138 (11:42:08 AM) joanie: sorry
 139 (11:42:21 AM) API: well, just 20 minutes to the end
 140 (11:42:36 AM) API: before gnome 3.0
 141 (11:42:51 AM) API: I would like to talk briefly about the current gnome a11y documentation
 142 (11:43:00 AM) API: it is far better and updated that kde one
 143 (11:43:07 AM) joanie: :-)
 144 (11:43:19 AM) API: (I have been reviewing kde accessibility webpages these days, 2004)
 145 (11:43:21 AM) API: but
 146 (11:43:31 AM) API: as some people commented on the list
 147 (11:43:34 AM) API: some parts are outdated
 148 (11:44:10 AM) API: and in the same way, I feel that they are too many places to search/clean
 149 (11:44:18 AM) API: we have live.gnome.org/accessibility
 150 (11:44:24 AM) API: and http://projects.gnome.org/accessibility/
 151 (11:45:02 AM) API: live tends to be more about the dynamic status of the project
 152 (11:45:07 AM) API: and the other more about the project
 153 (11:45:15 AM) API: but there are a lot of replicated data
 154 (11:46:13 AM) API: what do you think? we should try to focus on one? it is better the current approach of two main gnome accessibility pages?
 155 (11:46:40 AM) joanie: Well, the other problem (which is I believe what started the whole thing) is the technical docs
 156 (11:47:03 AM) joanie: And if you google to find the answer, you get a bunch of choices. And you don't know which is the "right" one
 157 (11:47:23 AM) API: yes, one of the problems is that there are technical docs on both
 158 (11:47:32 AM) API: and sometimes just one (if you are lucky) are updated
 159 (11:47:40 AM) API: is updated, I mean
 160 (11:47:40 AM) joanie: And technical docs I think should live on library.gnome.org (site 3)
 161 (11:48:07 AM) joanie: So I think one thing we want to do is a document purge, i.e. google ourselves, locate the old stuff, and get it removed
 162 (11:48:21 AM) joanie: then we need to update the one set of docs that remains
 163 (11:48:31 AM) joanie: as for live versus project .... I'm not sure
 164 (11:49:08 AM) API: hmm, yes your are right
 165 (11:49:10 AM) API: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/stable/
 166 (11:49:27 AM) clown: do other projects have the same live vs. project problem. Say, GTK+ for example? How do they deal with it?
 167 (11:49:56 AM) API: clown, in gtk case
 168 (11:50:05 AM) API: projects is just a link to official gtk page
 169 (11:50:10 AM) API: live is just a description
 170 (11:50:16 AM) API: and some pages about general discussion
 171 (11:50:31 AM) API: tech docs are in library, as joanie says
 172 (11:50:31 AM) clown: ok
 173 (11:50:56 AM) API: the issue here is that in some cases we have the same information in different places
 174 (11:51:17 AM) API: although to be sincere, we need a general review of the current status to check how bad is this problem
 175 (11:51:21 AM) joanie: (and in some cases we have different information that looks like the same information -- in different places)
 176 (11:51:27 AM) clown: yes, same info in two different places is not good.
 177 (11:51:42 AM) joanie: basically, if Alan Coopersmith (who is an uber-genius of a developer) got confused, we have a problem.
 178 (11:52:15 AM) API: well, and we don't have anyone with enough resources to make the general review...
 179 (11:52:22 AM) joanie: right.
 180 (11:52:32 AM) API: anyway, if we found outdated information
 181 (11:52:38 AM) joanie: Li did volunteer, but I'm not sure what his schedule is like....
 182 (11:52:39 AM) API: we should at least try to update that
 183 (11:53:00 AM) API: joanie, well afair we volunteer to correct that specific hole
 184 (11:53:07 AM) API: s/we/Li
 185 (11:53:13 AM) joanie: yup
 186 (11:53:37 AM) joanie: So perhaps we can ping Li next week (he's usually at the 06:00 meetings)?
 187 (11:53:47 AM) Pendulum: can multiple people do the general review (break it by section or something) to spread the work out?
 188 (11:53:53 AM) joanie: and see what he thinks we should do and/or how to split up the effort
 189 (11:53:58 AM) joanie: exactly Pendulum
 190 (11:54:28 AM) clown: coordinator + worker bees is a good model for this.
 191 (11:54:48 AM) API: joanie, and although library should be for technical docs, and live for coordination, general description
 192 (11:55:16 AM) API: we know projects. purpose?
 193 (11:55:32 AM) joanie: not off the top of my head. no.
 194 (11:57:00 AM) joanie: perhaps one thing we should add to the task list is figure out what *most* of the community is doing w.r.t. project versus live
 195 (11:57:11 AM) joanie: and we should then follow their example(?)
 196 (11:57:22 AM) API: joanie, yes good idea
 197 (11:57:35 AM) API: after check some examples
 198 (11:58:01 AM) joanie: Okay, I'll volunteer to just figure out what everyone else is doing on projects.gnome.org.
 199 (11:58:31 AM) API: it seems that some modules use projects to host their official page
 200 (11:58:46 AM) API: and the ones with a official page "of his own"
 201 (11:58:48 AM) joanie: yup. and some redirect to live. and some redirect to blogs, etc.
 202 (11:58:53 AM) API: just add a link
 203 (11:59:26 AM) joanie: things should be more predictable.
 204 (12:01:02 PM) API: yes, they should
 205 (12:01:25 PM) API: after all, there isn't too many people developing on a11y
 206 (12:01:33 PM) API: not just "pure a11y developers"
 207 (12:01:49 PM) API: also "normal developers" that want to ensure a11y support in their app
 208 (12:01:55 PM) ***SJ wonders why there aint any topic for this channel :-) . When there is so much discussion :-)
 209 (12:01:58 PM) API: so things should be easier for newbies
 210 (12:02:22 PM) ***API good point, it seems that the grinch stole the topic of the channel
 211 (12:02:39 PM) SJ: oh ! I see .
 212 (12:03:25 PM) ***API SJ, probably the one sending the meeting reminder should set it....
 213 (12:03:26 PM) API: btw
 214 (12:03:32 PM) API: it's time
 215 (12:03:36 PM) API: closing time
 216 (12:04:01 PM) SJ: Okay !
 217 (12:04:03 PM) API: we can go back with this and the gnome3.0 review in the next week