1 (02:00:16 AM) joanie: Good morning/afternoon/evening, y'all. Looks like it's meeting time. :-) Who's here besides Bryen.
   2 (02:00:21 AM) msanchez: morning
   3 (02:00:29 AM) mgorse: Hi
   4 (02:00:51 AM) Bryen: is it technically morning or night here at 1 a.m.?
   5 (02:01:15 AM) joanie: It's whatever you want it to be Bryen. :-)
   6 (02:01:36 AM) tbsaunde: Bryen: night
   7 (02:01:53 AM) joanie: Well, since I'm playing the role of API and since he's a task master.... :-P
   8 (02:01:59 AM) Bryen: I want it to be bedtime :-)
   9 (02:01:59 AM) joanie: On to the agenda
  10 (02:02:08 AM) joanie: AEGIS conference
  11 (02:02:20 AM) joanie: Any new about CENATIC funding? Has Fernando Herrera talked with José María Casanova?
  12 (02:02:38 AM) joanie: Fer wasn't able to attend and posted his answers on the gnome-accessibility list. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-list/2010-June/msg00095.html
  13 (02:02:51 AM) joanie: For the sake of the meeting log and minutes, Fer's update was:
  14 (02:03:01 AM) joanie: Yes, I prepared the draft and submitted to Jose María Casanova who
  15 (02:03:01 AM) joanie: filled the GNOME Hispano data. He sent it today to GNOME Hispano
  16 (02:03:01 AM) joanie: president (the one who has to sign the application) and the president
  17 (02:03:01 AM) joanie: will submit it tomorrow before the deadline.
  18 (02:03:33 AM) Bryen: Actually, re: AEGIS, I'm now finishing up an email to send to the list asking people to please sign up on the wishlist if they're even remotely thinking of going to AEGIS, so we can start making firmer plans in the coming weeks.
  19 (02:03:39 AM) joanie: I'm assuming that no one else has CENATIC funding updates (right??)
  20 (02:04:15 AM) joanie: Okay, since you're jumping in Bryen, funding update?
  21 (02:04:42 AM) TheMuso: Hey folks.
  22 (02:04:51 AM) li: hi
  23 (02:05:03 AM) Bryen: No funding updates. What I want to do now is start dividing up what needs to be funded and then start figuring out who to target and beg for money.
  24 (02:05:05 AM) TheMuso: Forgive me if I seem a little more distracted than usual, our country's government has had a little political upheaval, which has me a little distrubed.
  25 (02:05:17 AM) TheMuso: distrurbed
  26 (02:05:20 AM) TheMuso: gah typing
  27 (02:05:32 AM) Bryen: TheMuso, li Are you going to add your names to the wishlist (or did you already?)
  28 (02:05:58 AM) TheMuso: Bryen: No, I am happy to do things in my own time/work time whereever I can.
  29 (02:06:20 AM) Bryen: You don't want to get drunk with us in Spain? :-)
  30 (02:06:46 AM) li: yes, thanks!
  31 (02:06:47 AM) TheMuso: I am not going
  32 (02:06:51 AM) joanie: TheMuso: A good beer fest might take the edge off ;-)
  33 (02:06:55 AM) joanie: li Yay!
  34 (02:06:58 AM) TheMuso: I am not a beer drinker.
  35 (02:06:58 AM) Bryen: :-(
  36 (02:07:12 AM) Bryen: Neither am I. We'll walk to the nearest McDonald's and get a milkshake :-)
  37 (02:07:27 AM) joanie: you guys.... sheesh :-)
  38 (02:07:31 AM) joanie: Okay, focusing.... NOW
  39 (02:07:39 AM) joanie: Logisticy stuff
  40 (02:07:53 AM) joanie: Still a work in progress. But API and I have been trying to pencil things in.
  41 (02:08:00 AM) Bryen: I'm planning to target some of the major distro sponsors to sponsor our hackfest.
  42 (02:08:06 AM) joanie: While I wish we could have a full unconference-style hackfest, I don't think that's realistic given travel expenses and people's availability.
  43 (02:08:16 AM) joanie: Bryen: cool
  44 (02:08:41 AM) joanie: And (like I said earlier), I think having a certain amount of structure will help in that regard
  45 (02:08:46 AM) joanie: sure as heck can't hurt
  46 (02:09:09 AM) joanie: So what we wound up doing is (tentatively) making Monday and Tuesday the formal days, Wednesday less so, and Thursday and Friday more free-form. But it's still at that "subject to change" point.
  47 (02:09:14 AM) Bryen: We should definitely be clear in what our goals are for the hackfest.
  48 (02:09:21 AM) joanie: Agreed
  49 (02:09:43 AM) joanie: And I think that testing, documentation, gnome 3.0 bug fixing, and outreach are those goals
  50 (02:10:06 AM) Bryen: they certainly encompass the breadth of our needs
  51 (02:10:11 AM) joanie: :-)
  52 (02:10:23 AM) joanie: So that's what you'll find on the schedule
  53 (02:10:35 AM) joanie: Keep in mind, subject to change. Times may vary, etc.
  54 (02:10:57 AM) joanie: Bryen, since you're leading outreach, feel free to add stuff to the "detailed" schedule page I added
  55 (02:11:22 AM) joanie: (cause you're really the only one who can. Marketing/outreach ain't my thing. And I think that's the case for most of us)
  56 (02:11:47 AM) Bryen: definitely
  57 (02:12:07 AM) joanie: The other thing API had on the agenda was "any news from Alejandro Leiva and Juanje (they are living in Seville)?"
  58 (02:12:21 AM) joanie: My guess on this one would be 'no': aleiva is on vacation this week. And Juanje came down with pneumonia, bless his heart.
  59 (02:12:41 AM) Bryen: shouldn't we get his lungs blessed?
  60 (02:12:56 AM) joanie: Bryen: remind me to send you a gross but related news item
  61 (02:13:01 AM) joanie: anyhoo....
  62 (02:13:14 AM) joanie: Any other AEGISy things people want to discuss?
  63 (02:13:56 AM) Bryen: I think that's it on my part
  64 (02:14:14 AM) joanie: Assuming that's it for others' parts....
  65 (02:14:26 AM) joanie: Bryen, HFOSS/outreach?
  66 (02:14:35 AM) ***joanie passes the meeting scepter over to Bryen
  67 (02:14:51 AM) Bryen: Briefly we should take a minute to talk about CSUN event as well, since we're on the subject of conferences.
  68 (02:14:57 AM) joanie: Bryen that's on the agenda
  69 (02:15:01 AM) joanie: patience
  70 (02:15:01 AM) Bryen: ok
  71 (02:15:29 AM) Bryen: HFOSS.... I'm glad to say it turns out we're on track and the HFOSS students are working well with Patrick according to email queries
  72 (02:15:46 AM) Bryen: Patrick Welche is mentoring them on setting up a game-mode for Dasher
  73 (02:15:57 AM) joanie: cool
  74 (02:16:28 AM) Bryen: the status of their project is http://notes.hfoss.org/index.php/Gnome
  75 (02:17:02 AM) joanie: Daily updates too. Awesome!
  76 (02:17:07 AM) Bryen: as for the Western New England College (WNEC) semester course funded by the NSF, they are likely to be focusing on Caribou as their fall semester project.
  77 (02:17:44 AM) Bryen: They'll decide once and for all at the end of July. And we have possible mentors for them as well. (Name eludes me at the moment but its one of the guys in Spain currently funded to work on Caribou)
  78 (02:18:23 AM) ***joanie is jazzed about all the help from Spain
  79 (02:18:37 AM) Bryen: As for Outreach. I still have it on my ToDo to write up formally to the list just what the heck is Outreach. Got interrupted this week with all the storms around here affecting family.
  80 (02:18:47 AM) joanie: yikes
  81 (02:19:22 AM) joanie: Will that email also include the what is HFOSS and how is that different from WNEC and how are both of those related to (and separate from) outreach?
  82 (02:19:42 AM) Bryen: and we are close to finalizing an agreement to have me speak at LinuxCon-Brazil about GNOME-A11y (I'm still holding out on the one condition: Show me the money that you'll pay for my travel first!)
  83 (02:20:20 AM) Bryen: Joanie, yes I can describe our relationship with internship programs like HFOSS/WNEC as well as our hope to reach out to more internship developments out there.
  84 (02:20:31 AM) joanie: Awesome thanks!
  85 (02:20:37 AM) Bryen: In all honesty...
  86 (02:20:40 AM) joanie: The reason I ask is because I'm still confused. :-)
  87 (02:21:24 AM) Bryen: joanie, simply put, they're internship programs funded by various agencies and they approached GNOME offering their students up as slaves and GNOME said hey... A11y could use them!
  88 (02:21:25 AM) Bryen: :-)
  89 (02:21:43 AM) joanie: Heh
  90 (02:22:24 AM) joanie: Okay, that helps my understanding quite a bit. I still think the email to the full group would be helpful if you have the time to do so -- and weather permitting.
  91 (02:22:34 AM) Bryen: In all honesty, in a nutshell, right now Outreach is interfacing anything and everything that isn't directly developer related for GNOME-A11y. A lthough I hope to clarify and whittle down that role somewhat.
  92 (02:23:28 AM) Bryen: And that's it on my end with Outreach
  93 (02:23:33 AM) joanie: Bryen cool. Thanks!
  94 (02:23:43 AM) joanie: Okay, now on to CSUN 2011. Holy cow time flies
  95 (02:23:50 AM) ***joanie pokes eeejay
  96 (02:24:22 AM) Bryen: I can speak on this if eeejay isn't around
  97 (02:24:51 AM) joanie: Yo, eeejay, wake up. Otherwise Bryen's gonna keep talking. :-P
  98 (02:25:13 AM) Bryen: You say that like its a bad thing!
  99 (02:25:22 AM) ***joanie smiles innocently
 100 (02:25:54 AM) joanie: Okay, I'm guessing eeejay ain't here. If I'm wrong, I hope he'll jump in. In the meantime, Bryen please go ahead
 101 (02:26:10 AM) Bryen: Ok the CSUN 2011 event is two things: 1) Presence at the conference itself with a booth and presentations and 2) Hackfest
 102 (02:26:21 AM) Bryen: We don't need to worry about the hackfest right now
 103 (02:27:00 AM) Bryen: But for the Conference itself, what the GNOME Board needs is that we all agree we should have presence at the conference (booth + talks) All we have to do is relay that to the board and the board will fund the deposit on the booth.
 104 (02:27:30 AM) joanie: Well, I think we should have a booth + talks. +1 from me
 105 (02:27:32 AM) Bryen: So can we get an agreement here that we want booth at CSUN?
 106 (02:27:42 AM) Bryen: and that's a +1 from me as well.
 107 (02:27:48 AM) TheMuso: I'd agree.
 108 (02:27:51 AM) mgorse: +1
 109 (02:27:51 AM) TheMuso: s/I'd/I/
 110 (02:28:07 AM) Bryen: I didn't think we'd have any -1's :-)
 111 (02:28:14 AM) joanie: heh
 112 (02:28:15 AM) Bryen: ok I'll communicate this.
 113 (02:28:21 AM) joanie: awesome thanks Bryen!
 114 (02:28:28 AM) Bryen: and more good news joanie
 115 (02:28:39 AM) Bryen: I'm about 90% certain I have nothing left to "keep talking" about.
 116 (02:28:51 AM) joanie: it's the 10% that concerns me ;-)
 117 (02:29:04 AM) TheMuso: lol
 118 (02:29:10 AM) Bryen: To the moon, Alice!!!
 119 (02:29:19 AM) joanie: Bryen: you ain't that old....
 120 (02:29:28 AM) joanie: Okay.... GNOME 3.0 stuff
 121 (02:29:38 AM) joanie: Sounds like we have more good news -- this time on the gnome-mag front
 122 (02:29:55 AM) joanie: In Fer's "I cannot attend the meeting" message to the list today....
 123 (02:30:02 AM) joanie: "Yes, I contacted Carlos García (Kal) and he will be looking this week at the gnome-mag code to remove the bonobo code, finish the dbus API
 124 (02:30:02 AM) joanie: and ensure that it matches the gs-mag API consumed by orca."
 125 (02:30:18 AM) joanie: So yay! for fer and Kal!!
 126 (02:31:12 AM) joanie: (Any gnome-mag issues/questions/whatever? We might not have the answers but we can get the questions in the minutes if there are any.)
 127 (02:32:22 AM) joanie: Hearing nothing.... Next item for GNOME 3.0
 128 (02:32:36 AM) joanie: Turns out GnomeVoiceControl uses CSPI (and for that matter so does VEDICS). And what (if anything) can we do about that?
 129 (02:32:52 AM) joanie: According to Fer, the Consorcio is funding some work to improve GnomeVoiceControl for Spanish users,
 130 (02:33:06 AM) joanie: and that perhaps we could convince the company doing the work (INTELLIGENT DIALOGUE SYSTEMS S.L.) to port GnomeVoiceControl to python.
 131 (02:33:26 AM) joanie: That would certainly solve the problem for GnomeVoiceControl. But I don't know if that's sufficient/ideal.
 132 (02:33:43 AM) joanie: So.... Anyone have any thoughts on trying to resurrect CSPI?
 133 (02:33:43 AM) Bryen: I take it CSPI is a bad thing?
 134 (02:33:52 AM) joanie: CSPI is a deprecated thing
 135 (02:34:06 AM) TheMuso: cspi is possible if someone wanted to work on it.
 136 (02:34:29 AM) TheMuso: But its just as easy to talk direct dbus.
 137 (02:34:40 AM) joanie: yeah?
 138 (02:34:57 AM) Bryen: but having more stuff means more maintainence. Keeping things in least denominator is better, right?
 139 (02:35:54 AM) tbsaunde: Bryen: yes, but note python is slower, and sometimes too slow, so it might not be ideal
 140 (02:36:10 AM) joanie: And by the way, as best as I can tell, CSPI is deprecated due to lack of resources: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3#CSPI_.28drop_for_GNOME3.29
 141 (02:36:30 AM) mgorse: I'm halfway wondering if it would be faster anyhow to have a C library with gobject introspection bindings to handle the dbus aspects and caching, and then have a python binding as a wrapper around that
 142 (02:36:35 AM) mgorse: but that's a big change
 143 (02:37:25 AM) TheMuso: And so late in the game too.
 144 (02:37:27 AM) tbsaunde: mgorse: interesting question, I'd be willing to atleast look at the c part if had time :(
 145 (02:37:37 AM) tbsaunde: == TheMuso
 146 (02:37:48 AM) joanie: that's the kicker. Not enough time; not enough people :-(
 147 (02:37:55 AM) mgorse: yeah
 148 (02:38:11 AM) li: mgorse, you mean for pyatspi, right?
 149 (02:38:36 AM) Bryen: I want to take a little step back from what's better, what's not. What I'm curious about is how Intelligent Dialogue ended up using CSPI in the first place. has GNOME VoiceOver been around so long that CSPI was always a natural choice? Or is their work more recent and they just weren't educated properly about whether use of CSPI or other deprecateds shouldn't be used?
 150 (02:38:51 AM) joanie: Bryen... No
 151 (02:39:13 AM) joanie: GnomeVoiceControl was around before all this deprecation stuff started I believe
 152 (02:39:13 AM) mgorse: li: yeah
 153 (02:39:27 AM) Bryen: ok
 154 (02:39:55 AM) joanie: And the Consorcio Fernando de los Ríos wants it to work better for users in Southern Spain
 155 (02:40:14 AM) joanie: And so the Consorcio is funding Intelligent Dialogue to make it work better for users in Souther Spain
 156 (02:40:44 AM) joanie: So Intelligent Dialogue is doing work to "improve" GnomeVoiceControl
 157 (02:41:00 AM) joanie: and oh by the way it happens to use a deprecated library so all this work will soon... not work.
 158 (02:41:01 AM) Bryen: ok so it wasn't some terrible mistake that someone overlooked. That's all I was curious about
 159 (02:41:17 AM) joanie: And so the question is, what should be done about this
 160 (02:41:36 AM) joanie: First of all, I think the Consorcio should be given a heads up just to be sure they know this
 161 (02:42:07 AM) joanie: Since Guadalinex is based on Ubuntu, and since Ubuntu isn't dumping bonobo, etc. immediately (right TheMuso??), it's not an immediate issue for them.
 162 (02:42:23 AM) TheMuso: joanie: Correct, maverick+1 I'd say.
 163 (02:42:30 AM) joanie: Thanks TheMuso
 164 (02:42:37 AM) joanie: But it's still a kinda sucky situation
 165 (02:42:45 AM) Bryen: yes
 166 (02:42:52 AM) joanie: So, one option is what Fer proposed (port to Python)
 167 (02:42:58 AM) joanie: maybe that will happen; maybe it won't
 168 (02:43:46 AM) joanie: my question is, if they money fairy appears and funds work in this area, do we think it's worth it to resurrect CSPI? OR is what TheMuso mentioned the better approach?
 169 (02:44:25 AM) Bryen: direct dbus?
 170 (02:44:29 AM) joanie: yeah
 171 (02:45:16 AM) joanie: (i.e. if there are not that many apps requiring CSPI, does it make more sense to focus resources on other stuff?)
 172 (02:45:35 AM) Bryen: well I'm non-technical in this situation. But it seems to me that the solution that requires less maintainership is the more desired one.
 173 (02:46:45 AM) joanie: Well, something to think about anyway.....
 174 (02:46:52 AM) joanie: With 15 minutes left.... Moving on....
 175 (02:47:11 AM) joanie: Our (gnome a11y) docs might be in need of review/updating
 176 (02:47:20 AM) joanie: Alan Coopersmith raised the issue of duplicated and incomplete a11y docs and Li responded. :-)
 177 (02:47:27 AM) joanie: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-accessibility-devel/2010-June/msg00001.html
 178 (02:47:42 AM) joanie: Since we all have tons of free time and were wondering how to fill it. ;-) ;-)
 179 (02:47:42 AM) li: yes
 180 (02:48:01 AM) joanie: This is a problem though. Anyone able to take on the review (and location) of the gnome a11y docs? Li can you??
 181 (02:48:03 AM) Bryen: didn't we have someone tasked to handle this last year in the GOPA contest?
 182 (02:48:34 AM) joanie: Bryen: I think that was user docs, but I'm not sure
 183 (02:48:58 AM) joanie: Will and I removed old docs from other parts of GNOME when the GOPA doc guy was doing his thing
 184 (02:49:03 AM) Bryen: there were (I believe) 3 sets of docs that were supposed to be dealt with. 1. User 2. Developer and 3... something else
 185 (02:49:10 AM) li: sure, I can do the infrastructure part
 186 (02:49:24 AM) joanie: Sweet! Thanks Li!!
 187 (02:49:51 AM) Bryen: And on that note, I have been meaning to ask, do we have docs that give guidance to distros on how to make their distros a11y-compliant?
 188 (02:50:08 AM) joanie: I think Will put some smoke testing stuff on the wiki
 189 (02:50:11 AM) ***joanie looks
 190 (02:50:59 AM) joanie: This isn't for distros exactly. And I think there's a different doc for that. But here's one thing I found: http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/SmokeTesting
 191 (02:51:22 AM) Bryen: ok
 192 (02:51:34 AM) Bryen: thanks
 193 (02:51:41 AM) joanie: Bryen: I'm still looking, but I think Will did create something somewhere
 194 (02:51:44 AM) joanie: why do you ask?
 195 (02:52:59 AM) Bryen: because I need to point some people in the right direction :-)
 196 (02:53:13 AM) joanie: Bryen: Maybe the Developers Guide then??
 197 (02:53:21 AM) joanie: http://library.gnome.org/devel/accessibility-devel-guide/nightly/
 198 (02:53:26 AM) Bryen: There's too many people out there saying "We want to be sure we're accessible, but we haven't a clue where to start."
 199 (02:53:51 AM) joanie: Gotcha. Give the Developers Guide a read and see if that helps
 200 (02:53:59 AM) Bryen: ok
 201 (02:54:19 AM) joanie: Well, five minutes left. Anything else from anyone?
 202 (02:55:42 AM) ***Bryen isn't gong to say anything and validate joanie's 10% concern
 203 (02:55:57 AM) joanie: :-P
 204 (02:56:00 AM) TheMuso: Nope
 205 (02:56:09 AM) li: Tim is going to test D-Bus at-spi2 through Mago
 206 (02:56:15 AM) joanie: TheMuso: Actually, I have a question for you
 207 (02:56:24 AM) TheMuso: joanie: Sure.
 208 (02:56:26 AM) joanie: TheMuso: And I emailed you about it
 209 (02:56:29 AM) joanie: lemme find the bug
 210 (02:57:23 AM) joanie: TheMuso: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=606975
 211 (02:57:56 AM) joanie: of course the summary should now say OpenTTS rather than SpeechDispatcher
 212 (02:57:58 AM) TheMuso: joanie: Right, I need to look at your email again to remember the question
 213 (02:58:19 AM) TheMuso: joanie: Well the GNOME release team said either speech-dispatcher or opentts were external deps, due tro the nature of the fork.
 214 (02:58:33 AM) joanie: Right....
 215 (02:58:36 AM) joanie: so much fun
 216 (02:58:58 AM) joanie: My question was has it been necessary in Ubuntu to modify Orca in any way to cause SpeechDispatcher to be used over gnome-speech?
 217 (02:59:08 AM) TheMuso: joanie: As for modification, all I have done is set the default to the speech-dispatcher factory for orca, and I agree removing gnome-speech entirely is not yet the right thing to do
 218 (02:59:27 AM) TheMuso: joanie: Users can still install and use gnome-speech if they choose to do so.
 219 (02:59:37 AM) joanie: cool
 220 (03:00:06 AM) joanie: TheMuso: Could you please attach a patch to that bug with the changes you make for Ubuntu along with a comment to the effect of "this is the last thing that needs doing"?
 221 (03:00:20 AM) joanie: And then I'll push it and we can close that GNOME 3.0 blocker out
 222 (03:00:22 AM) TheMuso: As to the fork, Brailcom haven't been willing to compromise/come to the table properly. They have put a contributor agreement of sorts in place, if people want to work on speech-dspatcher and contribute.
 223 (03:00:37 AM) TheMuso: joanie: Sure, will get to it first thing tomorrow morning.
 224 (03:00:46 AM) joanie: TheMuso: Thank you SO much
 225 (03:01:04 AM) TheMuso: So the fork will remain, probably indefinitely.
 226 (03:01:20 AM) joanie: Ick. But, I'm not entirely surprised
 227 (03:01:35 AM) joanie: BTW it's 3:00 AM (errr .... 07:00). So the meeting is officially over.