May 20 17:02:47 ok anyone who isn't here for the meeting, please raise your hand May 20 17:03:14 * kmaraas (~kmaraas@78.80-202-74.nextgentel.com) has joined #a11y May 20 17:03:23 hand May 20 17:03:41 * ndanger (~ndanger@aruba-local.cc.trincoll.edu) has joined #a11y May 20 17:04:38 * heidi (~chatzilla@virt61.vnet.wnec.edu) has joined #a11y May 20 17:04:45 API, You're not here? :-) May 20 17:04:52 Bryen: a summary of the outreach meeting? May 20 17:05:01 Bryen: I have just returned May 20 17:05:15 i was wondering. is there an overview online of what will be discussed at this meeting, or is it just ad-hoc? May 20 17:05:15 I can give a brief summary of what we've talked about, sure May 20 17:05:17 I missed the meeting May 20 17:05:25 outreach one I mean May 20 17:05:49 ryan22: by default is a overview of the current status May 20 17:06:03 unless someone wanted to point out something in particular May 20 17:06:16 right now the main "issue" is gnome 3.0 release May 20 17:06:22 ah May 20 17:06:24 so the last meeting we reviewed May 20 17:06:34 items in May 20 17:06:36 this list May 20 17:06:38 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GNOME3 May 20 17:07:08 although normally each meeting (the ones I was present) started with a typical question: May 20 17:07:16 someone want to talk about something is specific? May 20 17:07:18 someone? May 20 17:07:21 yep May 20 17:07:41 ok, as the rest of the people seems to be sleeping May 20 17:07:48 i wondering if we could move to make the accessibility frameworks less DE independent May 20 17:08:03 * slee (~chatzilla@84.12.245.245) has joined #a11y May 20 17:08:22 DE independent? May 20 17:08:22 my distribution is based on xfce4 and my university' system will be based on it as well May 20 17:08:57 my university's system will be a thin client system, so if we use gnome our system requirements will about triple. xfce takes up around 100 MB per user May 20 17:09:48 so basically what im proposing is make the guis and frontend less dependent on the gnome frameworks and more dependent on just gtk+ May 20 17:10:02 the ocra gui is a big problem in this respect May 20 17:10:03 I thought AT/SPI works on xfce? May 20 17:10:12 it does, but it doesnt May 20 17:10:19 * slee sniggers May 20 17:10:44 ryan22, so does the xfce team address a11y issues? May 20 17:11:17 For example, KDE and GNOME have been working to bridge the gap by fixing DBUS so that KDE can use GNOME apps natively May 20 17:11:18 i will be talking to them to start making at-spi a priority May 20 17:11:49 its 95% theres, but there is random stuff such as the alt-tab interface not working over at-api May 20 17:12:03 ryan22: That's an xfce issue; not a GNOME a11y issue I think May 20 17:12:12 definitely May 20 17:12:52 tbh, I have not looked at, nor observed, what, if anything XFCE does for a11y May 20 17:13:18 however orca requiring alot is an a11y issue. the depencies could probaly be lessened on this so it works seamless with xfce. i, in my distribution, use most of the gnome utilites and they work without a problem in xfce May 20 17:13:35 but I would suggest first reaching out to xfce and see where they are at and they can always come visit with us for guidance May 20 17:13:52 well ill definately be in contact with them May 20 17:14:00 ryan22: I'll look, but I'm pretty sure that Orca dependencies are included because Orca needs those things May 20 17:14:13 ryan22: In which case what you'd require sounds like a stripped down version of Orca May 20 17:14:14 the orca command-line works fine May 20 17:14:24 Orca is not a command-line screen reader May 20 17:14:28 thats exactly what i mean May 20 17:14:41 but the command-line interface works fine May 20 17:15:29 joanie: correct me, but the command-line interface works in a different way that the gui one, right? May 20 17:15:48 xfce is very flexible so there probably isnt much work to be on their end to get this stuff working May 20 17:15:50 I'm a little confused about what cli ryan22 is talking about May 20 17:16:34 i can actually start and configure orca via the command-line May 20 17:16:45 ryan22: okay May 20 17:16:53 and that isn't working with the gui preferences? May 20 17:17:02 but it seems like the orca gui configuration is in th gnome-control-center May 20 17:17:11 no May 20 17:17:15 it's part of Orca May 20 17:17:21 independent of the gnome-control-center May 20 17:17:29 in fact, we have Orca xfce users May 20 17:17:41 perhaps the place to talk more about this is with them on the Orca list May 20 17:18:06 ryan22, is orca the only challenge you're facing for your university? May 20 17:18:29 nope but getting orca to work would be a great first step May 20 17:18:51 then yes, I would agree with joanie, that the first step should be to communicate on the orca list May 20 17:18:59 ryan22: yes I agree with joanie, probably this topic should be talked with calm in the mailing lists, there are a lot of knots here May 20 17:19:00 alright May 20 17:19:31 ok May 20 17:19:50 Bryen: I suppose that a good point now could be a little update of the outreach meeting May 20 17:20:00 unless anyone has a better idea May 20 17:20:06 you suppose, huh? :-) May 20 17:20:59 well, today's Outreach meeting (the first one ever-really) was attended by SJ, slee, stormy, and me. (Note the domination of S's?) May 20 17:21:14 * prlw1 (~prlw1@quitz.inf.phy.cam.ac.uk) has joined #a11y May 20 17:21:17 * API hmm, I have just discovered another english-spanish false friend May 20 17:22:10 And we identified a number of areas we need to grow in. Evangelism, formalizing the structure for student internship programs, and funding to pay for the above. May 20 17:22:45 hmm May 20 17:22:53 well i can help out with that May 20 17:22:53 that's really about as far as we've gotten. There's clearly so many opportunities for us, and yet, admittedly, so few resources May 20 17:23:35 my university is looking at making the accessibility frameworks a core part of of our system May 20 17:23:54 ok May 20 17:24:22 they will specifically using it to get alumni funding, that i would be more to use to further the aims of a11y May 20 17:24:47 i will also be looking at getting the teacher's union aboard the project and too help fund it May 20 17:25:13 ryan22, Well, there's a number of ways you can contribute via funding. May 20 17:25:18 the accessibility situation in schools is dire as many students can not get access to the resources they need May 20 17:25:28 For example, we are starting to talk about a hackfest at the AEGIS conference in October. May 20 17:25:44 funding to get all our hackers together in one place so they can work on this stuff would be awesome. May 20 17:25:57 i can also contribute hackers :P May 20 17:26:00 and obviously its a ROI for your university May 20 17:26:14 the compu sci department needs a raison d'etre May 20 17:26:20 and this is a good one May 20 17:26:26 Bryen: AEGIS hackfest is a great ideas May 20 17:26:43 (I'll be at the AEGIS hackfest) May 20 17:27:08 slee, yeah. Peter contacted us last week to talk about doing a CSUN-like hackfest again at AEGIS just before AEGIS starts. May 20 17:27:18 i ask can ask the university if they would like to fund a group of students to go to it a group May 20 17:27:21 whoot! May 20 17:27:29 But obviously, we're in very early stages of figuring out what to do, although joanie has some good ideas for topics for the hackfest May 20 17:27:56 I'va also been asked to present , possibly on GNOME - so perhaps I will go after all :-) May 20 17:28:08 (I'd like to see non-python dbus related things, and XINPUT2 - how can we use it?) May 20 17:28:11 then I guess we should start start formulating plans for a hackfest ;-) May 20 17:28:34 joanie: Caribou, Caribou and er Caibou ? May 20 17:29:08 slee: GNOME 3.0 May 20 17:29:26 or is that GNOME 3 ? I get confused May 20 17:29:27 my concern is that we're not going to be quite ready when it goes out the door May 20 17:29:37 slee: dpellicer is here you could ask him about it May 20 17:29:54 joanie: im honestly not sure anyone will be May 20 17:29:57 And what I'd honestly like to do at this proposed hackfest is get some actual work done fixing actual bugs May 20 17:30:12 (hence the non-python dbus - standard a11y interface / service names etc) May 20 17:30:16 with the intent of GNOME 3.0.1 being much more accessible May 20 17:30:40 ryan22: To be honest, I'm not concerned about others; I'm concerned about us. ;-) May 20 17:30:41 +1 to making 3.0 a priority May 20 17:30:47 dpellicer: HI May 20 17:30:53 (which means no corba) May 20 17:30:55 hi slee ! May 20 17:30:58 non-python is good. that means less system resources May 20 17:31:14 And what *we* need to do is ensure that people with disabilities have the same access to GNOME 3.0 (in whatever state it happens to be) May 20 17:31:15 joanie: yes we did too litle of that last time but what we did was important May 20 17:32:05 The reason for python seems to be python's ability to read idl... May 20 17:32:47 slee: Not saying what we did in the past wasn't important; merely that AEGIS is happening 2 weeks after the 3.0 release, which seems like a good time to sit down and solve actual, concrete problems while we're all in the same room May 20 17:33:17 API, After this, I have an important subject I need to bring up May 20 17:33:31 joanie: +1 May 20 17:33:34 Bryen: you have the scepter, you have the power, go on May 20 17:34:09 ok let's start planning on discussing the hackfest over the next month (June) so we can identify what our needs are and what resources we have available to make it happen May 20 17:34:40 and next topic... May 20 17:34:48 without getting into personal details... May 20 17:35:21 HFOSS.org internship program begins in two weeks. and our primary mentor for HFOSS has just informed me today that he has to back out due to a very personal crisis. May 20 17:35:27 slee what do you want to know about caribou? May 20 17:35:41 i'm still working on it May 20 17:35:57 dpellicer: one mo - I want to here Bryen May 20 17:36:04 ok May 20 17:36:09 which means we now have neither a mentor, nor a proposal that will work well. May 20 17:36:51 and I need people here to think up good proposals for the HFOSS students to work on and willing to mentor from time to time each week until I think mid-July May 20 17:37:13 Bryen: what was the final proposal? May 20 17:37:25 slee, Mousetrap May 20 17:37:39 oK May 20 17:37:42 dpellicer: that could be your queue :_) May 20 17:37:47 (I'd be happy to mentor a student to write a "game mode" for dasher) May 20 17:37:52 updating the old modules to the newly-revised modules under MouseTrap May 20 17:38:19 prlw1: yes that was a suggestion I heard before and sounds good. - perhaps you could explain the game mode though May 20 17:38:29 yeah... games? May 20 17:38:35 Exactly :-) May 20 17:38:48 So, plenty of room for imagination May 20 17:38:53 prlw1: text entry games? or Control May 20 17:39:03 The basics is to point an arrow at the place you need to aim at May 20 17:39:04 games that improve our skills using Dasher? May 20 17:39:08 in order to write something May 20 17:39:16 that's right May 20 17:39:28 ones of the main software the disability services office here uses is a "dyslexic spell-check" as part of texthelp read and write May 20 17:39:37 One main problem is that if you don't *have* to use dasher, you don't have a reason to practice May 20 17:39:37 oh, i see, cool May 20 17:39:40 That would be interesting to me, as I still have no clue how to use Dasher, no matter how many times I look at it. :-) May 20 17:39:48 that might be a good thing to work on as well May 20 17:40:05 I thought Dasher was deprecated May 20 17:40:06 prlw1: yeah, once people get over the cor factor they're often nonplussed May 20 17:40:10 oh that's gok May 20 17:40:12 a game wouldengage them May 20 17:40:12 nevermind May 20 17:40:13 any other ideas? Let's have a set of proposals so the students can select from them. May 20 17:40:39 enchant or aspell could be to support the "dyslexic spell checker" May 20 17:40:39 * slee has been playing with dasher on his iPod May 20 17:40:48 joanie, does Orca need interns this summer? May 20 17:40:54 maybe improve the heuristics May 20 17:40:58 slee: excellent :-) May 20 17:41:27 prlw1: I need a game to get any good ;-) May 20 17:41:33 ;-) May 20 17:41:40 Bryen: I think what might make sense would be something where the students can focus on a discrete task May 20 17:41:47 dpellicer, houw about caribou? Need interns? May 20 17:41:51 that is not part of a much larger, broader picture May 20 17:42:08 nor which requires knowledge about things like non-visual access to computers May 20 17:42:28 dpellicer: there was a lot of discussion about prediction - is that suitable or is it pretty much done? May 20 17:42:45 Bryen, i think not at the moment May 20 17:43:08 well I think the hfoss students do have some exposure to the idea of non-visual access. But yes, we don't want to burden them with huge project, yet at the same time, we want to cultivate them to stick with the project long after their internship is over. May 20 17:43:25 game mode for dasher is - that code is opaque - no wonder we basically receive no contributions from others. Plus, for a computer science student, there is the whole "arithemtic coding" and PPM language model side to learn about. But not all mathematics - with a game there would be room for creativity. May 20 17:43:28 off-topic: i can get developers to work on dasher and caribou May 20 17:43:59 my distribution is a media center so technologies be extremly useful in cases where there isn't keyboard May 20 17:44:23 slee, i didn't care much about prediction, i only use the presage library May 20 17:44:29 even if that isn't their original intention May 20 17:44:45 eeejay, hi May 20 17:45:08 alright, let me put this to the ML and see if we can gather up a few more propsal ideas May 20 17:45:17 all the improvements that anyone can make, will be welcome May 20 17:45:26 I like prlw1's proposal, but I want to make sure the students don't feel like they're given only one proposal to choose from. May 20 17:45:54 Bryen: we did collect some ideas for PP on the wiki - smalltasks etc May 20 17:45:58 so i use the prediction that presage offer May 20 17:46:03 nothing else May 20 17:46:05 how about the spell checker stuff? improving the heuristics could be a fun project May 20 17:46:09 There probably ought to be some easier proposals to choose from ;-) May 20 17:46:22 slee, link? And ideas are just half the battle, we need mentors too :-) May 20 17:46:52 we have students here writing programs to translate english into german. that sort of thing would be right up their ally May 20 17:46:54 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GetInvolved/SmallTasks May 20 17:47:05 http://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/GetInvolved May 20 17:47:43 and if you have lots of time May 20 17:47:45 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?keywords=accessibility;query_format=advanced;keywords_type=allwords;bug_status=UNCONFIRMED;bug_status=NEW;bug_status=ASSIGNED;bug_status=REOPENED;bug_status=NEEDINFO May 20 17:47:59 slee: That raises an interesting question May 20 17:48:08 ryan22: AEGIS side note: Bengt is working on a "concept coding framework" (as a plugin for openoffice) I often wonder whether that could be used as a framework for translation, possibly with a dasher front end to choose possible translations with. May 20 17:48:35 I wonder if a good HFOSS project might be to look from the non-a11y side of things to implement solutions that we need on the a11y side May 20 17:48:49 prlwl: that sounds interesting May 20 17:48:51 In other words, I think we're doing good (more or less) developing on our side May 20 17:49:08 But we keep smacking up against bugs in the software we're trying to provide access to May 20 17:49:09 joanie, That's definitely the goal on the NSF project we are working on May 20 17:49:22 Bryen: cool May 20 17:49:35 but for HFOSS... the issue is time is of the essence May 20 17:49:58 June 1 the program starts, next week the students start talking to us, and I'm generally off grid beginning this weekend until June 1 :-( May 20 17:50:12 how long would it take to start a new partnership with HFOSS? May 20 17:50:15 joanie: "software loadable keyboard" isn't an a11y-only concept, and I think is often provided at the operating system level. We seem to have it at the at-spi level. Maybe XINPUT2 would be the level at which that concept could go, and it definitely the non-a11y side. May 20 17:50:27 prlw1: cool May 20 17:50:53 ryan22, the partnership exists. We just need to be sure we have the resources available to work with them. Our previous resource (mentor) has a personal emergency May 20 17:51:22 (joanie: that might make life easier for caribou too) May 20 17:51:24 Bryen: i mean my university becoming a official partner of the project May 20 17:51:54 ryan22, You would have to talk to ndanger he's from HFOSS. May 20 17:52:20 you can read up more about it at hfoss.org May 20 17:52:21 cool. i like these meetings as they tell me where to go May 20 17:52:36 its hard finding all this stuff on your own May 20 17:52:57 yes indeed. a11y community is huge and extremely vast. May 20 17:53:11 so i apologize if i go off at times :P May 20 17:53:16 *topic May 20 17:53:26 ok so I've said what I needed to say, API. Let me hand you back the scepter May 20 17:54:00 well, IMHO, I think that it would be good to make a summary of this meeting and proposed ideas to the list May 20 17:54:17 too many people talking at the same time, I get somewhat lost ;) May 20 17:54:20 +1 API May 20 17:54:23 me too May 20 17:54:34 well, just 5 minutes left May 20 17:54:56 too late for a gnome3.0 items review May 20 17:55:04 someone else wants to add something? May 20 17:55:04 oops ;-) May 20 17:56:33 ok, nobody talking, we can conclude the meeting May 20 17:56:48 if you want I can make a brief summary of the meeting and send a mail to the list May 20 17:56:56 Oh - possibly another idea: If ever someone wants to write a "scanning interface" (highlight rows/columns in sequence and click to select) for non-a11y software, the first step is usually to pop a transparent screen over the entire window to draw the highlights. Then there is the fun and games of passing events on to the correct window underneath. There isn't a nice eg gtk+ interface for this. (android's gesture might be similar) May 20 17:57:02 thanks API that would be awesome May 20 17:57:26 sorry - took too long to type - I should have used dasher... May 20 17:57:43 * dpellicer has quit (Saliendo) May 20 17:58:09 * heidi has quit (ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]) May 20 17:58:22 prlw1: - http://jambu.fullmeasure.co.uk/ May 20 17:58:43 first pass was an overlay then we changed to direct in in app selection May 20 17:58:51 it needs TLC May 20 18:00:41 guessing: it's written in python because it needs to find the e.g. buttons using at-spi? May 20 18:00:59 further guessing: then essentially you write to the gdk screen of display? May 20 18:01:07 which is a bit like xor? May 20 18:01:41 which means it is then that drawing is ok but adding widgets isn't? May 20 18:01:43 prlw1: yep, yep - svg overlay May 20 18:02:32 I think some sort of widget *w = overlay_new() would make life easier ;-) May 20 18:02:33 oh, no actually a overlay window and draw on that May 20 18:02:39 Bryen: i just sent a email about HFLOSS to the heads of the science faculty and the office of the president. i hope something comes of it. May 20 18:02:39 really! May 20 18:03:15 in which case thank you for the tip! downloading code now! May 20 18:03:36 prlw1: one question, after your comments May 20 18:03:51 this mean that you miss any C-bindings to at-spi? May 20 18:03:56 im also extremely intreated in the frameworks are guys are making, in terms of caribou and dasher May 20 18:04:10 prlw1: don't kick me if I got confused, it's some time since I rummaged there May 20 18:04:20 slee: don't worry ;-) May 20 18:04:25 these frameworks would be extremely useful on alternate devices such as tablets and media centers May 20 18:04:36 i will be staying in contact ;) May 20 18:05:23 im starting a company where our main products will be a full linux based tablet and media center May 20 18:05:55 though frameworks will come in handy ;) May 20 18:06:15 *those May 20 18:06:26 API: I'll have another go, but at the useability hackfest in February, I just tried to write a quick C programme which uses libdbus to simply list the applications which registered with registryd v2. I failed! Mainly I think because of documentation. So, it isn't that I need C bindings, but I should be able to get the same answer as orca -l. May 20 18:06:58 ok I'm going to get going now. Thanks to you all, and thanks API for running the meeting. May 20 18:07:18 I may/may not be able to make the next 2-3 meetings. Just FYI, but I'll do my best to stay abreast of everything. May 20 18:07:18 orca is using python bindings, this is the reason I asked if you are missing C-bindings May 20 18:07:22 * rmunoz has quit (leaving) May 20 18:07:22 Bryen: everyone cya all May 20 18:07:25 Bryen: you are welcome May 20 18:07:55 API: I know - but by "binding" I take it you mean "handy C function call wrappers to the underlying dbus calls with the appropriate service names plugged in" May 20 18:08:18 yeah, good definition May 20 18:08:18 It should (given documentation) be possible to just query dbus directly. May 20 18:08:47 and it seems that the python freebie is that it can load the .idl with the service name definitions May 20 18:09:01 well, you can use your work here to improve the documentation ;) May 20 18:09:07 it would be awesome May 20 18:09:10 goodbye i need to take off today. i learn alot. thanks May 20 18:09:18 *learnt May 20 18:09:34 Indeed - but I need help from "those who know" May 20 18:09:45 I suppose I'll have another bash at it... May 20 18:09:59 Docs? We don't need no stinkin' docs. ;-) ;-) May 20 18:10:17 :-) "If it was hard to write, it should be hard to read" :-) May 20 18:10:42 In my day we wrote code on stone tablets, walking up the hill both ways in the snow. And we were grateful. Docs.... Sheesh. :-P May 20 18:11:03 For that matter, is there some sort of "IANA" equivalent for DBUS service / interface names? May 20 18:11:06 * slee has quit (ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100315083431]) May 20 18:11:10 prlw1, BTW, are you on the a11y mailing list? May 20 18:11:15 Yes! May 20 18:11:38 prlw1, ok when I post about HFOSS proposals today, respond to it, so I have your email and contact info handy May 20 18:12:02 OK - prlw1@cam.ac.uk Patrick Welche May 20 18:12:12 thanks! May 20 18:12:57 * ryan22 (~ryan22@dsl-66-225-162-63.vianet.ca) has left #a11y May 20 18:13:06 prlw1: at-spi2-core/xml has some of what you'd need May 20 18:13:40 Yay! mgorse! May 20 18:14:04 So, what should I do to get my configure.ac patches applied? May 20 18:14:14 Submit to bugzilla? May 20 18:14:37 And as you are one of "those who know", is this a good place to find you, and when? May 20 18:14:53 prlw1: Oh; right. Sure. Or have you already done that? May 20 18:15:03 Nope - just the mailing list. May 20 18:15:41 I suppose I could try it on ubuntu 10.04 now that we have it installed just to check.... May 20 18:18:22 prlw1: Yeah; I remember seeing an email from you a while ago but can't find it now. I'll look if you email or file a bu May 20 18:18:25 s/bu/bug/ May 20 18:19:17 OK - I'll submit a bug... (I seem to remember that I have another "improvement" on another laptop) May 20 18:19:28 Thanks May 20 18:19:49 Could we "meet" sometime next week? May 20 18:20:24 I'm usually in here during the day May 20 18:21:05 Say 11 on Tuesday? That gives me time to refresh my memory... May 20 18:21:10 (11 BST) May 20 18:21:28 (I'm assuming you're in the UK?) May 20 18:21:45 Python interface unloaded May 20 18:21:45 Tcl interface unloaded **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu May 20 18:21:45 2010