Contents
Agenda
- FOSDEM summary
- A11y Testing Towards GNOME 3
- ARIA role mapping in the w3.org User Agent Implementation Guide
Meeting Log
Attendees
- Brian, Fer, Frederik, Joanie, Joseph, Mike, Piñeiro, Steve, Trev
Topics Discussed
Bug 641869
Discussion
Mattias opened 641869: "Injecting GTK_PATH in the session environment doesn't work"
Removing --enable-relocate from AT-SPI2:
Mike explained that in AT-SPI2 we had an --enable-relocate option to allow AT-SPI and AT-SPI2 to co-exist, with the version to be used switched via gconf. It is unclear if the issue Mattias saw was a transitional issue with upgrading Fedora.
- Mike proposed that since this option was intended to be temporary and for the purpose of testing, it be removed.
- Joanie and Fer agreed.
- Mike added that he spoke with Luke (Ubuntu) and Steven Shaw and they are also okay with this decision.
Removing --enable-relocate from AT-SPI:
- Piñeiro asked if this would also mean removing it from AT-SPI. Mike responded by asking the team for input.
- Piñeiro observed that most people were not using relocate and recommended removing it from both AT-SPI2 and AT-SPI.
- Steve agreed, citing that keeping old options around is confusing.
- Fer noted that Fedora had both versions currently. Checking with Mattias he reported back that it was due to originally planning on GNOME 3 being part of F14 and that it should be safe to remove AT-SPI(1) in F15.
- Informing people of the incompatibility:
- Piñeiro stated that somewhere we should state that AT-SPI and AT-SPI2 are incompatible with one another.
- Fer suggested this be added to the NEWS file so packagers can notice it and mark their at-spi2 packages with Obsoletes: at-spi.
Conclusions
Mike will remove the --enable-relocate option from AT-SPI2.
FOSDEM Summary
Discussion
- The A11y Dev Room:
- Piñeiro, Ale, and Joaquim were amongst those present.
- Piñeiro observed that this was not the "most popular" devroom, but added that people were asking questions so at least there was some interest.
Because Mario could not attend, Malte gave a talk in Mario's slot on OpenOffice, explaining its status.
- Piñeiro had the opportunity to talk to Malte about attending the Atk Hackfest. While Malte thinks it is interesting, he is not sure if he will be able to attend due to company politics.
LibreOffice:
Piñeiro attended Michael Meeks' presentation on LibreOffice and asked about accessibility. In summary, he was told that OOo has a11y support therefore LibreOffice also has it. And "If you are interested in improving it, join us!"
Joanie asked if Michael and others plan to continue pulling OOo a11y fixes or if the forks are truly separate. Piñeiro responded that as far as he knew, there shouldn't be any problem using patches from OpenOffice in LibreOffice but had no idea if anyone was willing to do so.
Joanie asked if that meant the LibreOffice team would actively looking for them or if our team would need to keep up with what Malte's team does and then ping the LibreOffice team to incorporate the change.
- Mike inquired about any license conflicts. Piñeiro responded that he didn't think there were any, but that he had no idea about the interrelations between the two communities.
Joanie stated that we need to figure out exactly what is (or is not) going on because our users expect to be able to use either.
Piñeiro pointed out that some distros (e.g. Ubuntu Natty) had switched from OpenOffice to LibreOffice.
Fer asked about what we prefer: Keep OpenOffice and LibreOffice compatible, or push changes on LibreOffice to improve a11y and have separate support for them (e.g. in Orca). Joanie responded that she prefers that each be accessible, and that doing so does not require our team doing the work of contributing patches.
Steve pointed out that LibreOffice is going a great job in engaging the community and, for that reason, are "likely to win."
Conclusions
Joanie will put LibreOffice on her to-do list. In particular:
"Make noise" on LibreOffice lists (i.e. other than the Accessibility list).
Determine what the relationship between OpenOffice and LibreOffice is or is not with respect to accessibility fixes.
Identify the expectations the LibreOffice team has with respect to filing accessibility bugs.
Attempt to figure out what support we can look to from the LibreOffice team with rspect to accessibility.
- Inform the respective communities (GNOME a11y team, Orca users, distros) about her findings.
A11y Testing Towards GNOME 3
Discussion
Fedora had a test day
- GNOME Shell accessibility - General:
- Mike stated that gnome-shell accessibility is still a work in progress and that this might necessitate testing the "fallback mode."
Piñeiro pointed out that some patches needed for an accessible gnome-shell have been committed, but we still need a fix for bug 640057.
- Automated Testing of GNOME Shell Magnification:
- Brian asked how to test gnome-shell magnification. He is interested in creating an automated test for it.
- Piñeiro responded that it is possible to activate magnification from within gnome-shell, but that you cannot configure it without Orca.
Joseph pointed out that bug 622414 has a patch for a GUI testing various magnification settings, but that there is no automated testing.
- Joseph asked Brian about a framework to hook automated testing into. Brian responded he is building one based on Mago. Joseph indicated that AEGIS/Peter is interested in his hooking into Brian's framework. Brian responded that his ETA was April, but that as his platform is on GNOME 2 he is not focused on testing GNOME 3 features like gnome-shell mag.
- Joseph indicated that he has considered unit tests for gnome-shell mag, but added that this doesn't show what actually happened on screen.
Brian provided a link to his accessibility testing code
- Future Testing Days:
- Piñeiro pointed out that the Fedora testing day had already come and gone and asked what Fer was proposing. Fer responded that he's not proposing anything, but asking if we think it is a good idea to try to add accessibility test cases to Fedora testing days.
- Piñeiro thinks it makes sense to try, but wonders who will have time to track it.
- Joanie wonders if the Fedora people would actually be responsive to the idea. Fer replied that the Redhat people do not care about it, but that the community does. He offered to investigate if the response would be positive.
- Piñeiro suggested that it would not be "polite" to add accessibility testing items and then not do the work ourselves to test them.
- Joanie thinks we should follow the model outlined by the Fedora community for GNOME 3.2, and come up with some other means than piggy-backing onto what Fedora is doing to conduct the tests, perhaps partnering with the Vinux team.
- Piñeiro responded that Vinux is based on Ubuntu and hence not pure GNOME 3.
Fer asked about OpenSuSE's plans. Mike responded that 11.4 will not ship GNOME 3, but that there will be an external repository for it and that there is a live CD for it: http://blog.crozat.net/2011/01/gnome-3-live-cd-usb-test-image.html
- Joanie mentioned that Foresight Linux might be another possibility.
Conclusions
We should add organized testing to the GNOME Accessibility Team's roadmap with the aim of it being like the Fedora Testing Days in terms of the approach.
ARIA role mapping in the w3.org User Agent Implementation Guide
Discussion
- NOTE that this was a lengthy discussion. Those interested in additional detail should consult the meeting log.
Joseph had been asked about the Atk column in the User Agent Implementation Guide. The working group would like an answer by next Monday.
- Fer pointed out the presence of problems in the current document, using aria-checked as an example.
- Column labeling:
- Joseph asked if the column should be labelled "AT-SPI" or "ATK/AT-SPI" rather than "ATK" and if at-spi-corba vs. at-spi-dbus had any relevance with respect to this document.
- Fer responded that ATK/AT-SPI is tricky because there is not always a one-to-one mapping between the two.
- Piñeiro suggested either having two columns or having a single ATK/AT-SPI column, explaining the differences as need be.
- (Much discussion took place at this point. See the meeting log for a complete transcript.)
- Joanie and Piñeiro each think the column should be renamed to "ATK/AT-SPI." Joseph indicated that he was leaning in this direction as well.
Fer pointed out that we would "have a mess" when there is no one-to-one map between AT-SPI and ATK. Joanie responded that one of the goals of the upcoming ATK Hackfest was to align these two more closely. Thus if the goal is to have a document which remains relevant for more than six months, she does not feel the differences which currently exist are critical.
Conclusions
- Joseph thinks he has enough information from the discussion to reply to the working group.
Summary of Action Items
Mike will remove the --enable-relocate option from AT-SPI2.
- Question: Should a bug be filed about doing the same for AT-SPI?
Joanie will put LibreOffice on her to-do list. In particular:
"Make noise" on LibreOffice lists (i.e. other than the Accessibility list).
Determine what the relationship between OpenOffice and LibreOffice is or is not with respect to accessibility fixes.
Identify the expectations the LibreOffice team has with respect to filing accessibility bugs.
Attempt to figure out what support we can look to from the LibreOffice team with rspect to accessibility.
- Inform the respective communities (GNOME a11y team, Orca users, distros) about her findings.
We should add organized testing to the GNOME Accessibility Team's roadmap with the aim of it being like the Fedora Testing Days in terms of the approach.
Rolled Over
- Piñeiro will send an announcement about the Atk hackfest to the mailing list.
- People who need funding to attend the Atk hackfest should apply to the Travel Committee.
- Piñeiro (and others) should continue looking for funding for the Atk hackfest.
Atk hackfest participants should do their "homework" as listed on the hackfest page.
- Joanie will investigate who controls the GNOME a11y paypal donations account and draft a page for the wiki.
Everyone who has not yet submitted their report for Q4 should do so by adding it to our team Q4 page.
Next Meeting
- Thursday, 17 February, at 07:00 UTC in #a11y-meeting on irc.gnome.org